Loss of USAF uniforms

[lordmonar]

Easiest way to address it - the corporate uniform becomes THE uniform.

Is it the easiest way?   

How many people do we lose if we take the EASY way?

What happens to our recruiting numbers when we take the EASY way?

How long before CAP changes from the USAF Axillary to just a flying club?

Listen....I get it and on a certain level I agree with you....we ought to be in the same uniform.   I also agree that the corporate uniform should have standardized fabric and single sourced suppliers.   

I also see the reasoning behind the status qua and agree that the "best course of action" is to keep with the status qua.

I'd like to have the power to just make the change and [darn] all the consequences....but no one lives in that world we live in the real CAP.

[PA Guy]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

I think the problem is in members viewing the corporate uniform as "second class."

That is the real issue to address IMO.

Easiest way to address it - the corporate uniform becomes THE uniform.

FWIW - the people who seem to say the loudest that corporate is not second class are the ones who are allowed to wear the "first class" version.

I've heard the arguments and explanations. I don't buy them. A uniform that can't even settle on a standard shade, cut, fabric, tailoring, with headgear not required, with a baseball cap as the out of sync cap option simply screams "second class." That is reinforced dramatically when someone inquires as to why there are two different uniforms and the answer delivered is "Oh, they wear that because THEY ARENT ALLOWED to wear the blue one."

Seriously, now - what other organization does that?

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Holding Pattern]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

I think the problem is in members viewing the corporate uniform as "second class."

That is the real issue to address IMO.

Easiest way to address it - the corporate uniform becomes THE uniform.

FWIW - the people who seem to say the loudest that corporate is not second class are the ones who are allowed to wear the "first class" version.

I've heard the arguments and explanations. I don't buy them. A uniform that can't even settle on a standard shade, cut, fabric, tailoring, with headgear not required, with a baseball cap as the out of sync cap option simply screams "second class." That is reinforced dramatically when someone inquires as to why there are two different uniforms and the answer delivered is "Oh, they wear that because THEY ARENT ALLOWED to wear the blue one."

Seriously, now - what other organization does that?

Seriously then, the answer is to fix the corporate uniform, not dump the AF uniform. If the squadrons I've been in can manage to make it work and have people side by side in AF and corporate uniforms without issue, I reiterate:

I think the problem is in members viewing the corporate uniform as "second class."

Stop thinking of it that way and it won't be a problem.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Ah, but there is a solution.  Ned, as you probably know, I am a seasoned lawyer (well seasoned if you count the salt, pepper, garlic, cumin, that I love, but I digress).  You, Sir, are also a seasoned lawyer.  Since you know we are 24/7 people, you can see what time I am posting this.  If not, it is 3:10 A. M.  Obviously I had an epiphany.  The solution is a class action suit against Civil Air Patrol and bringing in the Air Force as a co-defendant, as CAP's fall back position will be that Ma Blue controls the uniform Reg's.  The action will be for discrimination against obese members.  Obesity has been classified by the A.M.A. as a disease.  The A.M.A. contends that obesity is not necessarily controllable as previously thought and has genetic and medical components involving the endocrine system.  Obesity has been classified as an impairment by the Social Security Administration.  Other than perceived image the Air Force has no reason to deny CAP members from wearing the military uniform.  Unfortunately that was also a consideration regarding gays being allowed to wear the uniform or even join the Air Force.  That has been rectified and so will this uniform issue in the same manner, by the Court.  One way or the other, we will become uniform and remove the stigma of obesity from our rank and file.  The ACLU loves these cases and makes their living off of them.  This action will not cost our obese members one penny as legal fees will be covered under the EAJA.  There will probably be a claim for damages in that the routine and continual stigma suffered by our obese members is self evident, or will be attested to in Court.  Further, as part of any settlement or award, CAP/USAF, may be required to furnish, pay for, or reimburse all current members if a separate uniform is required to right the wrong of this egregious treatment of the offended parties.  See, I knew there was a solution.  I just forgot that we do not have to always approach the beast with our hat in our hand but may drop back on logic and utilize the argumentum ad baculum.  So, I must leave you with one of my favorite closings, "Govern thyself accordingly".  Of course, Ned, I don't mean you specifically, but you might wish to convey the message to the powers that be.

I actually considered going thru our (and possibly the USAF) channel(s) for EO complaints on that concept within the 60 days after the new 39-1 dropped. Part of my argument was that forcing 18 to 20 year old cadets into an different uniform based solely weight violated our own CPP rules on hazing.

Wasn't that requirement in the previous edition too?

Not sure on the cadet change. However CAP Regs for complaints have a requirement to file within 60 days. (This has some exceptions.) My thought at the time was the release of a new 39-1 would be a clear reset on the 60 days.

[NC Hokie]

I think the problem is in members viewing the corporate uniform as "second class."

This would be much easier to do if the corporate uniforms were "separate but equal," but that is not the case.  For example I like baseball caps as much as the next guy, but they are in no way equal to a flight cap or service cap.

[wuzafuzz]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

I think the problem is in members viewing the corporate uniform as "second class."

That is the real issue to address IMO.

Easiest way to address it - the corporate uniform becomes THE uniform.

FWIW - the people who seem to say the loudest that corporate is not second class are the ones who are allowed to wear the "first class" version.

I've heard the arguments and explanations. I don't buy them. A uniform that can't even settle on a standard shade, cut, fabric, tailoring, with headgear not required, with a baseball cap as the out of sync cap option simply screams "second class." That is reinforced dramatically when someone inquires as to why there are two different uniforms and the answer delivered is "Oh, they wear that because THEY ARENT ALLOWED to wear the blue one."

Seriously, now - what other organization does that?

Agree or disagree with the regulation, Us Naval Sea Cadets does much the same.
http://homeport.seacadets.org/display/Manuals/Uniform+Regulations

"1. Alternate Uniform. A uniform worn by an NSCC adult volunteer who is
not authorized or is unable to wear the military style officer’s
uniform due to weight standards, medical condition, or other approved
reason. The NSCC Alternate Uniform is not civilian attire."

Their alternate uniforms are described in this document, starting about page 3-49.  (Page 49 in PDF land.)  There are a lot of similarities to some CAP corporate uniforms.

Bottom line, CAP is not unique for having distinctive uniforms based on height, weight, or grooming.  The parent service gets to make the rules.

[Storm Chaser]

How long before CAP changes from the USAF Axillary to just a flying club?

Some of the most dedicated members who support many Air Force missions, especially air ops missions, don't wear the AF-style uniform. I also know many who wear the AF-style uniform and care more about uniforms, insignias and awards than the mission. Flying Club? I'd say we need to avoid becoming a "military-ish club", regardless of which uniform we wear.

Let's also not forget we can't have Civil Air Patrol without the AIR part. I've seen more folks pretending to be some sort of "commando" type group, than a flying club. YMMV.

[sarmed1]

a few thoughts.....
A law suit is a dangerous road to travel.  Just because you have in your mind an end point, doesnt mean that is the same end point that will be judged and mandated to compliance.  What other doors may that open.  firstly, even in an out of court settlement, where is CAP going to come up with the extra cash to fight that fight.....what other programs are going to suffer because of that? 
If it is in deed proved that CAP discriminated against people with obesity, via official judgement that they are at fault, they are now open to additional law suits by individuals who now may want/see an easy win for money in their pocket.   Good for you, you now have the same uniform as everyone else, but because xyz ex-member also won that $1 mil discrimination law suit because "shaming him for obesity" in those grey pants made him feel depressed and thats why he never excelled and couldnt get out of moms basement and accomplish his dreams., we sold off all the planes and vans and pretty much bankrupted the organization.... oops.

My other worry:  You have to come forward and admit you now have a diagnosed medical condition (that previously you didnt have), how does admission of a potentially limiting medical condition effect they further participation in CAP activities, or could it effect your civilian employment, health insurance, life insurance?  Where do we say that they are obese? (I was 5'11" and 227 lbs, most "charts" says that's obese)  there is a difference between obese and not able to meet height and weight standards.
Maybe anyone who is obese shouldn't be flying in a CAP aircraft?  Or as part of a ground team?  Or maybe a member at all.  There are many jobs out there that people cant do because of certain disabilities or medical conditions, CAP could apply that same standard, right now they leave that up to the individual to say "I can or cant do this with my issue"  Force their hand on one side and it may make them force one on the other.

MK

[sarmed1]

On another note:  I personally dont see why CAP doesnt change their standard.  A few years ago the AF adopted a standard of appearance (in conjunction with the AFPFT)  Basically commanders are required to ensure that members maintain an "acceptable" appearance when in uniform.  There are no magic numbers on height and weight except during enlistment/commissioning  (you are scored on your "girth" as part of your PT test, but that is waiverable to a certain extent the rest of your time)  All AF uniforms for everyone.

This adaption would at least solve a good portion of the 2nd class member issue.  But it would force all of the beard and "wierd" hairdo crowd to conform or get out, not to mention those that just dont want to wear a military style uniform (comply or be terminated) and I am sure now they would feel slighted too

MK

[Nuke52]

I also see the reasoning behind the status qua and agree that the "best course of action" is to keep with the status qua.

Okay, I fully admit your Latin must be much better than mine, but...  What is this "status qua" to which you continually refer?  Is it similar to "status quo"?

[SarDragon]

Resolved via PM. Nothing to see here. Move along. 

[ZigZag911]

I've said it repeatedly:

1) all seniors in corporate -- gray & whites. BBDU, NOMEX flight suit in non-USAF color

2) get a suitable military-style dress jacket for corporate, at least as an option in place of blazer

[TexasBEAST]

As a kaydet, I looked on the fat & fuzzy seniors who wore corporates with disdain. They couldn't measure up to our level of military-ish decorum and pizazz, so they settled for "lesser" uniforms.

But now I see those same corporate uniforms as an opportunity that many people might not otherwise have to still participate fully in a USAF-derived program. They're getting to do everything that the military-ish folks do, just in a different type of clothing. I guess I'm more glass-half-full now than I used to be as a kaydet. It's not about what the corporate uniform isn't--it's about what a corporate uniform is, and the positive good that it does.

Fat & fuzzies are not lessers, nor are their uniforms. They're a whole other component of the membership that CAP would not have at its disposal if it were super-strict and oo-rah gung-ho about weight/grooming standards as we kaydets always thought we wanted the organization to be.

And corporate uniforms, more than being somehow less than AF-style unis, are still a means to identify certain people as full-fledged members of the organization, whether they meet certain USAF-style specs or not.



All that being said...

It's kinda funny how the Navy and even the Army have allowed beards in military uniform in the past. Grooming standards were modified to allow them, for a time, under certain circumstances. And it wasn't the end of the world. It worked.

Because a beard doesn't keep you from doing your job. (Heck, with the spec ops guys, it helped them to do it a little better, in terms of blending in or achieving rapport with foreign populations.)

And to some degree, neither does being overweight. It doesn't necessarily keep you from being able to do your (CAP) job. Yes, being big around the middle can make things more difficult. But so can being really tall, or being elderly. Should CAP treat those folks any differently, too? What about having asthma, or COPD, or poor night vision, or whatever?

It should come down to whether you can do the job and meet performance standards: Function over fashion.

But weight-standards as a litmus test for uniform wear is putting fashion over function. I know, I know, there is a basic gut hunch feeling that if you're fat, you must be out of shape functionally too. But that's a superficial assumption. Look at all the portly firefighters who go through hell to do their jobs. Yes, their extra weight makes it harder on them to do it. But they still get it done. And like it or not, look at the portly CAPers who wear BDUs for ground team, and who still get it done. Obviously, they can do the same work that is expected of them as somewhat who meets AF-style grooming/weight standards. So it does seem somewhat nonsensical to declare them unworthy of wearing the same uniform, on a practical level.

That is, unless you go and re-write the performance standards out from underneath them, I guess...

[lordmonar]

I've said it repeatedly:

1) all seniors in corporate -- gray & whites. BBDU, NOMEX flight suit in non-USAF color

2) get a suitable military-style dress jacket for corporate, at least as an option in place of blazer

You got about $800?  Because that how much you would owe me to replace all the USAF uniforms I've got? I won't need money for corporates because i've got those already (well not a blue NOMEX flight suit).

You ready to pick up the slack when all those people (not me) quite because A) You forced another uniform change on them.  B) You are pushing away from the Air Force again.  C) All NHQ cares about is uniforms?

You ready to pick up the recruiting pace...because not only are we going to have to replace all those who quit, we got work against the negetive backlash they will generate and we will not have the allure of the uniform and the connect it gives us with the USAF.

You ready to deal with people bringing it up again and again for YEARS when you ask them questions completely not related to uniforms?  People are still grousing about the CSU going away.

That is the nature of CAP.....right wrong or indifferent. 
That  is why NHQ and the USAF is happy with the Status Quo (finally fixed my auto correct ).

So....before they are going to be ready to push for some big change.....you are going to have to convince them that the benefits out weight the KNOWN butt pain it is going to cause them.

[/rant]

[PHall]

I've said it repeatedly:

1) all seniors in corporate -- gray & whites. BBDU, NOMEX flight suit in non-USAF color

2) get a suitable military-style dress jacket for corporate, at least as an option in place of blazer

And you've been ignored repeatedly because your idea is not workable.

[AirAux]

Sarmed1, the Air Force would be part of the lawsuit and would bear most responsibility, financial liability, because they are the ones that ordered the discrimination.  Can anybody explain why fatties can't wear the BDU's since they are not an Air Force uniform?  I mean, it really looks like the Air Force is set on discriminating against fatties, doesn't it??  For a long time, a member could get free BDU's when the Air Force abandoned them, however, fatties have always had to pay for the BBDU's at full price.  The ego of the Air Force is more important than the ego of their volunteer members?  Their zero tolerance policy on discrimination is a farce.   

[jeders]

I know this comment is going to get mostly ignored because people like AirAux and others want to push the change for changes sake argument and complain about how anyone who wears the corporate uniform is second class and discriminated against.

As a kaydet, I looked on the fat & fuzzy seniors who wore corporates with disdain. They couldn't measure up to our level of military-ish decorum and pizazz, so they settled for "lesser" uniforms.

As a cadet, I looked upon almost ALL senior members with some degree of disdain, not because of what they wore but how they wore it. There were people who wore the whites that I thought looked sharp, because they wore it right. There were people who wore the blues that looked like a sack of garbage, because they wore it wrong. It's not the uniform that creates a second class member, it's the member that creates a second class uniform.

Right now as a senior member, I am within the CAP weight limit and just a couple of pounds over the air force weight limit. There has never been a time that I've not been eligible to wear the AF-style uniform due to weight. Most of the time, I chose to wear the AF-style because I already had them and they were easy to come by at a decent price. Now I wear only the corporate uniform because I choose to have a kick-ass handlebar mustache. I'm not treated any differently by my fellow squadron mates, or anyone else I come in contact with because of my choice of uniforms. If I ever decide to get my mustache back in regs, because it is kind of annoying sometimes, then I'll wear the AF-style again; and the mission will go on no differently than it does now. Again, the uniform doesn't make me a second class member.

As for standardization, I'm glad that there is no standard brand/model/color of pants. I'm able to go to Sears and buy a pair of pants for $29 that is a reasonable match to the color of pants that the Bookstore used to sell. I'm able to display all of my CAP achievements on the white shirt, though I usually don't because it's a pain in the neck putting all that on there. I'm also glad that I don't have to buy a CAP corporate dress coat and am able to use one of the blazers that I already have hanging in my closet. I'm treated with the same respect as the 180# guy wearing his blues simply because it's not the uniform that makes someone second class, it's the person. And that is the real problem.

Also, opening up AF-style for everyone won't make us any more professional. You'll still have the people who can't be bothered to wash and press their whites not being bothered to wash and press their blues. You'll also still have the same people wearing only polos because they don't want to be bothered with customs and courtesies or they think we should be the CIVILIAN Air Patrol with bright red name tapes and big flashing signs that say, "don't treat us like the Military because we haven't earned that right."

The only thing that I would ask of the uniform committee, is to allow more than one mini-medal to be worn on the corporate semi-formal uniform. As much as I enjoy changing out my one mini-medal throughout the evening to see who notices, I would like to be able to display them all at formal functions.

Can anybody explain why fatties can't wear the BDU's since they are not an Air Force uniform? 

I don't know, maybe because it's an Army uniform?

[Holding Pattern]

Sarmed1, the Air Force would be part of the lawsuit and would bear most responsibility, financial liability, because they are the ones that ordered the discrimination.  Can anybody explain why fatties

It is hard to take your position seriously if you are going to keep using pejoratives like this.

[Alaric]

I know this comment is going to get mostly ignored because people like AirAux and others want to push the change for changes sake argument and complain about how anyone who wears the corporate uniform is second class and discriminated against.

Can anybody explain why fatties can't wear the BDU's since they are not an Air Force uniform? 

I don't know, maybe because it's an Army uniform?

The Woodland BDU has not been an Army uniform in years

[LSThiker]

I know this comment is going to get mostly ignored because people like AirAux and others want to push the change for changes sake argument and complain about how anyone who wears the corporate uniform is second class and discriminated against.

Can anybody explain why fatties can't wear the BDU's since they are not an Air Force uniform? 

I don't know, maybe because it's an Army uniform?

The Woodland BDU has not been an Army uniform in years

That depends. Even though they may not wear that particular pattern of camouflage, that does not necessarily mean they do not claim it as a uniform.  The fact it does not appear in a uniform manual, just means that the military does not currently claim it as a standard or currently used uniform.  Nevertheless, they could, in theory, revert back to that particular style of uniform.