Loss of USAF uniforms

[lordmonar]

If we were actually concerned about mission instead of what people could wear, than there would be no arguments we would just wear what other ES service agencies wear Khakis and a polo shirt.

Maybe because what we wear makes us a little different then those other agencies.

Interested in youth training? BSA, GSA, Boys Club, YMCA, etc, et al.
Interested in Emergency Services?  Lots of volunteer ground SAR agencies, Air SAR organizations, Volunteer Fire Department, Red Cross, Police Volunteers.
Interested in Aerospace Education?  EAA, NASA, AEI,

But only one organization brings all three of those together and has a direct connection to the USAF.

Lose the uniforms....and you lose that connection and our organization would suffer for it IMHO.

[Alaric]

Perhaps, if ES was our only mission.  But our largest mission absolutely requires wear of the AF style uniforms.

I don't disagree, but it's not the major mission for the Seniors who are the only ones affected by the regulations .  I love working with the cadets and I wear my white shirt doing it. But that's not what brought me in and that's not what keeps me.  It's certainly not what keeps any member of a senior squadron,  I have been a member of 6 wings in 5 regions and my ( purely anecdotal) opinion is that no more than 30% of the senior membership is directly involved with the cadets.  My point has always been as an organization we seem to pay more attention to the sizzle than the steak.

[AirAux]

Ned, while the Air Force does not allow paraplegics or blind people to wear the Air Force uniform, Civil Air patrol does.  Why can some with disabilities wear the Air Force uniform and others can't?  There is desperate treatment of members with disabilities. 

[abdsp51]

Ned, while the Air Force does not allow paraplegics or blind people to wear the Air Force uniform, Civil Air patrol does.  Why can some with disabilities wear the Air Force uniform and others can't?  There is desperate treatment of members with disabilities.

So everyone who chooses to be obese and not abide by grroming standards should get special treatment? And by this I mean members who choose to not exercise or eat right or want the long hair and a fulll face fulk of hair.  The org accomadates with the corp uniform for those who can't wear the AF type for whatever reason maybe.

No one has ever denied that there are legit causes for obese.  And if I recall correctly our EO policies and the AFs are clear on discrimination. 

The AF sets the standard as you know for wear of their uniform and if they have said if you don't groom how we want you too or fall within this weight for your height then what is the issue really discrimination especially since alot of the people who work on base for some contractors are disabled.

And while CAP allows members who are blind or cant walk the option of wearing the AF style and the AF doesn't remember the AF is a warfighting entity  and CAP doesn't. 

[lordmonar]

Being blind or in a wheel chair is not a bar to wearing the USAF uniform.

It may be a bar to being in the USAF....but if other wise authorize to wear the uniform....you may continue to wear it.

[AirAux]

abdsp51, you noted, "so everyone that chooses to be obese..."  We have determined that obesity is an illness, that there are uncontrollable factors involved, and that it may be a disability.  Your statement is the exact reason that obese members having to wear a different uniform is harmful and a stigma to them.  Ten years ago, homosexuals were stigmatized when ignorance said sexual preference was a choice.  It is far past time to admit obesity is not controllable in a great many cases.  We need to wear one uniform,  Whether the Air Force allows us to wear the Air Force uniform or out of a sense of uniformity, teamwork and acceptance we all agree to wear a common uniform, it is time for a change and the discrimination to stop.

[AirAux]

Lordmanor, if one is retired Air Force and authorized to wear the uniform, would obesity be a bar to that?

[abdsp51]

abdsp51, you noted, "so everyone that chooses to be obese..."  We have determined that obesity is an illness, that there are uncontrollable factors involved, and that it may be a disability.  Your statement is the exact reason that obese members having to wear a different uniform is harmful and a stigma to them.  Ten years ago, homosexuals were stigmatized when ignorance said sexual preference was a choice.  It is far past time to admit obesity is not controllable in a great many cases.  We need to wear one uniform,  Whether the Air Force allows us to wear the Air Force uniform or out of a sense of uniformity, teamwork and acceptance we all agree to wear a common uniform, it is time for a change and the discrimination to stop.

Not buying it.  There are plenty of people who choose to be obese and its not related to genes or medical reasons.  We have also determined that alcoholism is also a disease same with PTSD and a host of other illnesses. 

Do you want an alcoholic driving  a cab or a truck for you or even flying for you? 

You can say I am claiming ignorance all you want but I have specific personal experiences with people who choose to be obese, alcoholics etc.  And if you look at alot of my posts I have always said and will continue to state that yes they are people who are obese due to MEDICAL reasons and should be accomadated as much as possible which is done.

And comparing people who are obese to those who are homosexual is really farfetched especially considering that there is not scientific proof that homosexuality is not a choice.  Being gay and obese are apples and oranges.

I guess by your logic then I can let myself get overweight, pursue disabiliy and anything else since I would then have an illness and can expect to be accomadated.

[lordmonar]

Lordmanor, if one is retired Air Force and authorized to wear the uniform, would obesity be a bar to that?

Nope but one has earned the right to wear it.    But that is not the point.   
We are not talking about wearing USAF uniforms.   Just USAF style CAP uniforms. 

[Alaric]

I enjoy the debate over uniforms especially since in my new role as recruiting and retention, it seems to work differently on the different sides of the equation

The AF-style uniforms are a great recruiting tool, they become a divisive issue among senior members afterwards (and divisivness is not good for retention).

For myself, though I would like to see fewer uniforms, I knew what I was getting into when I joined so they are not going to cause me to leave.  That being said, when I lose this last pesky 10 pounds, though I may buy blues, I see no reason to buy woodlands or a green flight suit.

[AirAux]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

[Holding Pattern]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

I think the problem is in members viewing the corporate uniform as "second class."

That is the real issue to address IMO.

[lordmonar]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

Not as far as the USAF is concerned.

[abdsp51]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

No where near the same level at all.  40 years while an accomplishment is no where near 20+ serving the nation at home for extended hours and downrange for months or years at a time. The only people that I see here and in general raising a stink about being second class are those who feel second class.  I see the corp uniform as an alternative to accommodate those who have issues with their weight.

I guess since obesesity is an illness and so is alcoholism we should let everyone just wear the AF style regardless of the standards in place and let alcoholics drive corp vehicles since hey they have an "illness" too.

[Holding Pattern]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

No where near the same level at all.  40 years while an accomplishment is no where near 20+ serving the nation at home for extended hours and downrange for months or years at a time. The only people that I see here and in general raising a stink about being second class are those who feel second class.  I see the corp uniform as an alternative to accommodate those who have issues with their weight.

I guess since obesesity is an illness and so is alcoholism we should let everyone just wear the AF style regardless of the standards in place and let alcoholics drive corp vehicles since hey they have an "illness" too.

Or those who choose to have facial hair, those who choose not to wear a military uniform for a multitude of reasons outside of the reasons outlined in the regs, etc.

If people are feeling like second class citizens in the corporate uniform, either the corporate uniform needs to change, or the people fostering the perception that it is a "bad" uniform need to work on changing that perception.

[Alaric]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

No where near the same level at all.  40 years while an accomplishment is no where near 20+ serving the nation at home for extended hours and downrange for months or years at a time. The only people that I see here and in general raising a stink about being second class are those who feel second class.  I see the corp uniform as an alternative to accommodate those who have issues with their weight.

I guess since obesesity is an illness and so is alcoholism we should let everyone just wear the AF style regardless of the standards in place and let alcoholics drive corp vehicles since hey they have an "illness" too.

Or those who choose to have facial hair, those who choose not to wear a military uniform for a multitude of reasons outside of the reasons outlined in the regs, etc.

If people are feeling like second class citizens in the corporate uniform, either the corporate uniform needs to change, or the people fostering the perception that it is a "bad" uniform need to work on changing that perception.

I think the major time it becomes a bad uniform (to those who have never served in the military) is that whereas at a banquet where the uod is dress uniform, the corporate equivalent does not allow for the wearing of CAP decorations (except a lapel pin for highest award). 

[AlphaSigOU]

I think the major time it becomes a bad uniform (to those who have never served in the military) is that whereas at a banquet where the uod is dress uniform, the corporate equivalent does not allow for the wearing of CAP decorations (except a lapel pin for highest award).

You get to wear only one CAP miniature medal on the blazer formal uniform.

[Alaric]

I think the major time it becomes a bad uniform (to those who have never served in the military) is that whereas at a banquet where the uod is dress uniform, the corporate equivalent does not allow for the wearing of CAP decorations (except a lapel pin for highest award).

You get to wear only one CAP miniature medal on the blazer formal uniform.

Sorry my point was you can only wear one award

[SarDragon]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

Simply, no.

AF AD folks who do not meet physical requirements, after suitable counseling and attempts at compliance, will be released from active duty. Since CAP gets a 10% allowance, they should either comply, or wear the alternate uniform.

[Mitchell 1969]

Lordmanor, So a 25 year old weighing 140 pounds joins CAP and wears the Air Force uniform.  He is proud of his uniform.  40 years later he has served proudly and successfully for 40 years and now weighs 260 pounds and has 2-3 medical conditions and can not lose weight no matter what he does.  Hasn't this member earned the right to wear the Air Force uniform, or should he feel the shame/embarrassment of having to wear the second class corporate uniform, a constant reminder that he is no longer as valued as he once was?

I think the problem is in members viewing the corporate uniform as "second class."

That is the real issue to address IMO.

Easiest way to address it - the corporate uniform becomes THE uniform.

FWIW - the people who seem to say the loudest that corporate is not second class are the ones who are allowed to wear the "first class" version.

I've heard the arguments and explanations. I don't buy them. A uniform that can't even settle on a standard shade, cut, fabric, tailoring, with headgear not required, with a baseball cap as the out of sync cap option simply screams "second class." That is reinforced dramatically when someone inquires as to why there are two different uniforms and the answer delivered is "Oh, they wear that because THEY ARENT ALLOWED to wear the blue one."

Seriously, now - what other organization does that?