Air Canada Does Search & Rescue - 270 Scanners On Board

[sardak]

Also, and I could be wrong here: A lot of aviation ops internationally have a basis in maritime law & custom.   I *believe* that this is one of those circumstances where, while it might not be *required*, it is *customary* for a vessel (aircraft or ship) to divert to render aid of some sort.

It's a bit of a gray area, but here's what international conventions state:
United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea
" Every State shall require the master of a ship flying its flag, in so far as he can do so without serious danger to the ship, the crew or the passengers:
(a) to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost;
(b) to proceed with all possible speed to the rescue of persons in distress, if informed of their need of assistance, in so far as such action may reasonably be expected of him."
International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea
"The master of a ship at sea which is in a position to be able to provide assistance, on receiving information from any source that persons are in distress at sea, is bound to proceed with all speed to their assistance..."
International Civil Aviation Organization Annex 12 on SAR
3.2.1 Contracting States, when requested, shall arrange for all aircraft, vessels and local services and facilities which do not form part of the search and rescue organization to cooperate with the latter in search and rescue and to extend any possible assistance to the survivors of aircraft accidents.

If your plane crashes at sea, you're going to expect ships to come to your aid. Communications is also based on these premises. The same international radio distress frequencies are good for ships and planes dating back to early days of aviation.

Canada Shipping Act, 2001 (2001, C. 26) Extract — Part 5, Sections 130–133
(2) On being informed that a person, a vessel or an aircraft is in distress or is missing in Canadian waters or on the high seas off any of the coasts of Canada under circumstances that indicate that they may be in distress, a rescue coordinator may:
   1. direct all vessels within an area that the rescue coordinator specifies to report their positions;
   2. direct any vessel to take part in a search for that person, vessel or aircraft or to otherwise render assistance;
   3. give any other directions that the rescue coordinator considers necessary to carry out search and rescue operations for that person, vessel or aircraft;
(3) Every vessel or person on board a vessel in Canadian waters and every vessel or person on board a vessel in any waters that has a master who is a qualified person shall comply with a direction given to it or them under subsection (2).
Aircraft treated as if vessel
[The above] apply in respect of aircraft on or over Canadian waters as they apply in respect of vessels in Canadian waters, with any modifications that the circumstances require.

From the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) website: Dedicated SAR facilities are limited in Australia. When necessary, other facilities are diverted from their primary function by arrangement or request.  Private and commercial aircraft are chartered as required for searches and the costs are recovered from the State/Territory or Australian Search and Rescue (AusSAR) as appropriate.

Given that this was a flight of a Commonwealth flag airline to another Commonwealth nation, there was probably an implied duty to act, following the Canada Shipping Act, if not outright responsibility under the conventions.

Somewhat related, the International Maritime Organization (IMO) and the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) merged their SAR manuals into one several years ago. This combined manual is the one the United States follows, with supplements.

Mike

[Luis R. Ramos]

I also read on Mike's post a section that implies that if there are any costs for searching, the Australian territory will cover them.

Kinda takes care of Eclipse's comment that the airplane was incurring extra costs by diverting from their commercial flight...

:angel:

Flyer

[Flying Pig]

Thats why Captains are paid the big bucks to make decisions.

[Eclipse]

Kinda takes care of Eclipse's comment that the airplane was incurring extra costs by diverting from their commercial flight...

Yeah - rescue cost, sure.  That lost business because you're three hours late for a meeting, or don't make the hearing for your kids custody fight,
or maybe just miss the connection and don't get on the cruise ship that you have non-refundable tickets for, doubt it.

Commercial airlines are supposed to get passengers to their destinations on time, not get involved in SAR - there's highly paid professionals for that,
and further, in this case, the boat had a beacon on it and they knew pretty much where it was.

And again, this had a positive outcome so everyone's a "hero", if that plane went swimming, we'd all be asking why this was even an option, let alone a good idea.

As to the Maritime statutes, I doubt the intention is to endanger the lives of hundreds of people on an already engaged commercial flight.
There's a difference between commandeering aircraft on the ground, and diverting one that already has a responsibility for hundreds of souls.

You also can't compare this to a cruise ship - on a cruise ship, no matter where you are, you're "there".  Few people would mind staying on a boat longer, while no one but the first few rows wants to stay on a commercial plane 1 second longer than necessary. 

I wonder if the airline was passing out vouchers or at least T-shirts, they got some great pub at their passengers risk and expense.

Like most news stories these days, the "cool" wins over common sense.

[PHall]

Kinda takes care of Eclipse's comment that the airplane was incurring extra costs by diverting from their commercial flight...

Yeah - rescue cost, sure.  That lost business because you're three hours late for a meeting, or don't make the hearing for your kids custody fight,
or maybe just miss the connection and don't get on the cruise ship that you have non-refundable tickets for, doubt it.

Commercial airlines are supposed to get passengers to their destinations on time, not get involved in SAR - there's highly paid professionals for that,
and further, in this case, the boat had a beacon on it and they knew pretty much where it was.

And again, this had a positive outcome so everyone's a "hero", if that plane went swimming, we'd all be asking why this was even an option, let alone a good idea.

As to the Maritime statutes, I doubt the intention is to endanger the lives of hundreds of people on an already engaged commercial flight.
There's a difference between commandeering aircraft on the ground, and diverting one that already has a responsibility for hundreds of souls.

You also can't compare this to a cruise ship - on a cruise ship, no matter where you are, you're "there".  Few people would mind staying on a boat longer, while no one but the first few rows wants to stay on a commercial plane 1 second longer than necessary. 

I wonder if the airline was passing out vouchers or at least T-shirts, they got some great pub at their passengers risk and expense.

Like most news stories these days, the "cool" wins over common sense.

International Law says they must help if asked and if they are able.  They were asked and they were able. End of story.

[Eclipse]

International Law says they must help if asked and if they are able.  They were asked and they were able. End of story.

Fair enough, but don't make it out to be more, or less then it is, or negate the impact on the passengers, nor the risk.

[A.Member]

Kinda takes care of Eclipse's comment that the airplane was incurring extra costs by diverting from their commercial flight...

Yeah - rescue cost, sure.  That lost business because you're three hours late for a meeting, or don't make the hearing for your kids custody fight,
or maybe just miss the connection and don't get on the cruise ship that you have non-refundable tickets for, doubt it...

Quit being ridiculous.  This was an international flight.  No one with an ounce of common sense plans timelines like that.

Sometimes you make good arguments.  This is not one of those times.  When you're the only one on the side arguing your point, it may be a clue to revisit your position.

[Eclipse]

This was an international flight.  No one with an ounce of common sense plans timelines like that.

A lot of people live in those timelines, every day, and the airlines do it to their customers, every day.

Less flights, more passengers, tighter timelines.

[Майор Хаткевич]

When you're the only one on the side arguing your point, it may be a clue to revisit your position.

*cough*

[AngelWings]

This was an international flight.  No one with an ounce of common sense plans timelines like that.

A lot of people live in those timelines, every day, and the airlines do it to their customers, every day.

Less flights, more passengers, tighter timelines.

So who cares? It's not every day it happens, nor is it a common occurence. Plus I am sure all of the passengers are at least half decent human beings who can fathom that it wasn't a normal situation. And what is ONE occurence of losing at most 270 customers going to matter in the long run? You've become corrupt when you value money over lives.

And the pilot didn't put anyone at risk. 4,000 feet ASL with a perfectly fine airliner is safe. They didn't fly it stupidly, they flew it sanely. I'd completely agree with your safety concerns if they were yankin' 'n bankin' it like they were fighter jocks, but the reports make it sound like they were flying the turns safely.

[RogueLeader]

This was an international flight.  No one with an ounce of common sense plans timelines like that.

A lot of people live in those timelines, every day, and the airlines do it to their customers, every day.

Less flights, more passengers, tighter timelines.

So who cares? It's not every day it happens, nor is it a common occurence. Plus I am sure all of the passengers are at least half decent human beings who can fathom that it wasn't a normal situation. And what is ONE occurence of losing at most 270 customers going to matter in the long run? You've become corrupt when you value money over lives.

And the pilot didn't put anyone at risk. 4,000 feet ASL with a perfectly fine airliner is safe. They didn't fly it stupidly, they flew it sanely. I'd completely agree with your safety concerns if they were yankin' 'n bankin' it like they were fighter jocks, but the reports make it sound like they were flying the turns safely.

As a matter of fact, those planes are designed (or were when first conceived)  to yank and bank.  Just because they aren't handled like that, doesn't mean they can't.  (If I had 270 on board, I wouldn't be, but YMMV)

[johnnyb47]

I suppose I see both sides.
I'm not too concerned about being late to a meeting or something when a human life is involved.
I can say that after the rush had worn off and the person was rescued I might begin questioning the use of a jet airliner with 250+ passengers being used for SAR.
It's different, IMHO, when an ocean liner is turned around to help stranded or sinking vessels on the high seas. There's not even a slight worry that you could hit the water at 580MPH when you are already in it.

I dont know that I'd be angry. Just questioning the judgement.

[AirDX]

Twice in my ATC career I had air carrier aircraft look for downed aircraft, both times successfully.  Both times the air carrier remained in the area until relieved by a USCG asset.  In one case the air carrier remained on station as a com relay for the USCG helo that was winching up survivors. 

No one complained whined.

Here's one of the stories:

http://www.equipped.com/kenditch.htm

[AirDX]

Kinda takes care of Eclipse's comment that the airplane was incurring extra costs by diverting from their commercial flight...

Yeah - rescue cost, sure.  That lost business because you're three hours late for a meeting, or don't make the hearing for your kids custody fight,
or maybe just miss the connection and don't get on the cruise ship that you have non-refundable tickets for, doubt it.

Commercial airlines are supposed to get passengers to their destinations on time, not get involved in SAR - there's highly paid professionals for that,
and further, in this case, the boat had a beacon on it and they knew pretty much where it was.

And again, this had a positive outcome so everyone's a "hero", if that plane went swimming, we'd all be asking why this was even an option, let alone a good idea.

As to the Maritime statutes, I doubt the intention is to endanger the lives of hundreds of people on an already engaged commercial flight.
There's a difference between commandeering aircraft on the ground, and diverting one that already has a responsibility for hundreds of souls.

You also can't compare this to a cruise ship - on a cruise ship, no matter where you are, you're "there".  Few people would mind staying on a boat longer, while no one but the first few rows wants to stay on a commercial plane 1 second longer than necessary. 

I wonder if the airline was passing out vouchers or at least T-shirts, they got some great pub at their passengers risk and expense.

Like most news stories these days, the "cool" wins over common sense.

SAR assets are not as easily and quickly available in the open ocean as they are in Illinois.  You have to use what you have, and people actually HELP each other.  As as been explained, risk is minimal - 777s are type-certified to 330 minutes.  As far as delay, let's see what the pax said:

I think everyone's heart started beating a little bit faster," said Jill Barber, a Canadian singer, who was making the trip to Sydney for a concert. "They said ... we'd really appreciate it if everyone could look out their windows, and if anyone has any binoculars that could help us identify this yacht, that would be really helpful."

It didn't take too long to find Ey as passengers and crew scanned the waters below.

"We're doing this big sweeping right turn and almost immediately they said, 'Oh, we see something,' " Robertson said. "We were totally ecstatic."
Total from time from activation of the emergency beacon until he was found by the Air Canada flight: about 25 minutes.

"You know, we cheered and we applauded and I think we all kind of felt a sense of pride," Barber said.

So... yeah, your opinion is officially irrelevant.