is civil air patrol a Military organization

Started by JCSCADET, September 16, 2005, 02:41:07 PM

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Matt

<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

WICAPMOM

#41
I appreciate the ample responces.  I feel like the knights have come to my aid.

Civil Air Patrol is full of many people with varying opinions and experience.   I know that there is always more to be learned.  I greatly value all of the information provided on this web site.  I may not always agree but every opinion is valuable and offers much incite.  (Flyguy06, we will just have to agree to disagree)

I am currently in the process of preparing for my possible first squadron command.  While the idea is a little intimidating, I know it is time for me to take this next step.  There is a lot to learn but the resources that I have to draw from will help.  I will make use of the experience of all that I respect.  And most importantly will share my love of Civil Air Patrol.

I have yet to finalize my decision, I pray I make the right choice.

Wish me luck. ;)
Julie Anne
Major, CAP ~ Commander
Milwaukee Comp Sqdn 5 (WI-061)

Pylon

Quote from: WICAPMOM on October 03, 2005, 03:01:49 PM
I appreciate the ample responces.  I feel like the knights have come to my aid.

Civil Air Patrol is full of many people with varying opinions and experience.   I know that there is always more to be learned.  I greatly value all of the information provided on this web site.  I may not always agree but every opinion is valuable and offers much incite.  (Flyguy06, we will just have to agree to disagree)

I am currently in the process of preparing for my possible first squadron command.  While the idea is a little intimidating, I know it is time for me to take this next step.  There is a lot to learn but the resources that I have to draw from will help.  I will make use of the experience of all that I respect.  And most importantly will share my love of Civil Air Patrol.

I have yet to finalize my decision, I pray I make the right choice.

Wish me luck. ;)

Well definitely good luck with that decision.  It certainly is one that should undergo careful consideration of your time committment and ability to withstand stress (not to scare you off, but to be realistic about it)!   

As you so aptly put, one of the great aspects of CAPTalk in my opinion, is the uncanny ability for all of us to discuss (and often disagree) in such a professional and civil manner.  Agreeing to disagree and civilly bringing up each individual's points-of-view on the matter with respect for others' opinions has been such a great thing to see in action here.  It really makes us unique from other CAP-related discussion sites, in my opinion, and I have to hand it to all of you for being the ones to make that happen.  :)

And since I'm suddenly in the habit of quoting others' comments, I'll quote one of the individuals at SLS this weekend regarding your comment about there's always more to learn.  It was said, "You only stop learning when they put the first shovelful of dirt on ya."  You're right -- we all stand to learn from the experiences of others, no matter what our personal level of expertise might be. 

Good luck!
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

dankaten

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 30, 2005, 06:16:23 PM
Let me try and clarify what I meant. I am a young Seniro Member . I am also inthe military. I try to put myself in the cadets shoes. If someone came up to me and said for example that my gigline was off or that my shoes were not to standard. The first thing Iwould do is look at them to se if they are in standard. Now, if they dont even have on the same thing that I have on, they have no rom to tell me anything. Cause they are not seetting the example. Set the example is a serious leadership principle that I have learned throughout the years and one that I try everyday to follow not just in CAP, but in everything I do. We as SM's that work with cadets must set the pace. NEVER make a statement that the cadets should look up to the senior cadets and not the SM's. If you really feel that way, then why are you aroound? To babysit? I really dont mean to offend anyne, but that logic just doesnt make sense to me.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. You are a young Senior Member and you are also in the Military. I am an old Senior Member and Ex-Military (Warrant Officer in the Army). I have only been in CAP for 2 years as of this month. I am also the Commander for  a Composite Squadron. What I see here is a lack of education. You say that you have polled your Cadets and they agree that that the first thing they do is look at what the person correcting this is wearing. When this happens that is your opportunity to educate a Cadet. As with most young people you automatically assume that when a person corrects you that it is a personal attact on you or the way you wear your uniform. When you are told that you are wearing your uniform incorrecty it is to help you not attack you. As I said earlier I have only been in the CAP two years. I have had a couple people correct my uniform in the wearing of CAP awards and such. They were helping me to wear my uniform correctly, not chastizing me for the way I wear it. I can wear the military uniform and do on occassion but I also wear the CAP uniform. I have a gig line on the white aviator shirt just as well as on the air force blues. I believe if you go back and ask your Cadets what bothers them the most it will be that the Senior Members wear the uniform improperly. If they do believe that it is Senior Members correcting their uniform when they are not wearing the same uniform then you might do a little educating and let them know the Senior Members are telling them for their benefit and not to be mean. Would they rather have a Senior Member correct them while they are in their unit or have someone else catch it when they are trying to win a competition? Setting an example of wearing a uniform simply means wear the uniform you have on, correctly, it doesn't mean you have to wear the same uniform. you are correct, leading by example is ONE of the greatest forms of leadership but it isn't the only one. Showing tolerance and respect for differences is also a couple of others.
Just my two cents.

Capt. Katen
Cpt. Katen
Commander
Delta Composite Squadron
TX334

JaL5597

I guess I have a diffrent viewpoint on things than some people.  I have been in CAP for 9 years, 8 of them as a senior member.  I was a cadet for 13 months earning 2 stripes and serving as the Cadet First Sergeant in my squadron.

So I do know what its like to be in their shoes.  I know it can be a royal pain in the rear when senior members come in and stick their noses into things all the time.  Thats why I am a firm believer in the cadet chain of command and using it.  When I was a Squadron Leadership Officer and Acting Deputy Commander for Cadets I would spend all my time with the senior cadet staff using my knowlage and experience to critique the lower cadet staff (and also providing a senior member presence at all times.)  The cadet commander would then make the corrections going down the chain.  The only time I would step in is at the request of the cadets. 

I work at wing hq now so I am not directly involved in the week to week interactions with cadets anymore.  I do wear the Air Force style uniforms when I do wear one.  When I correct cadets on uniforms its normally on something that they misunderstood or were taught incorrectly.  If they have reason to argue with me we go and find CAPM 39-1. 

I have been corrected on my own uniform more than once.  I simply listen and say thank you when that happens. 

Granted there are many ways to view running the program.  I have seen and heard alot of things.  I don't necissairly agree with everything but if its what works for your local conditions and your not violating the regulations then who am I to argue with your methods?

Westernslope

Quote from: JaL5597 on October 04, 2005, 12:16:13 AM
I know it can be a royal pain in the rear when senior members come in and stick their noses into things all the time.  Thats why I am a firm believer in the cadet chain of command and using it.  When I was a Squadron Leadership Officer and Acting Deputy Commander for Cadets I would spend all my time with the senior cadet staff using my knowlage and experience to critique the lower cadet staff (and also providing a senior member presence at all times.)  The cadet commander would then make the corrections going down the chain.  The only time I would step in is at the request of the cadets. 


Westernslope

Quote from: Cadetofthe60s on October 04, 2005, 12:42:07 AM
Quote from: JaL5597 on October 04, 2005, 12:16:13 AM
I know it can be a royal pain in the rear when senior members come in and stick their noses into things all the time.  Thats why I am a firm believer in the cadet chain of command and using it.  When I was a Squadron Leadership Officer and Acting Deputy Commander for Cadets I would spend all my time with the senior cadet staff using my knowlage and experience to critique the lower cadet staff (and also providing a senior member presence at all times.)  The cadet commander would then make the corrections going down the chain.  The only time I would step in is at the request of the cadets. 


(OOPS, I hit that key just a little too fast )

I agree. I like using the cadet chain of command as well.  :)

Maj Ballard

Quote from: capchiro on October 01, 2005, 02:07:05 PM
The basic uniform for senior members is the aviator white shirt and grey slacks.  This is the uniform that CAP requires senior members to have, all other uniforms are optional.       

Wait wait wait... Where did you get this information?
L. Ballard, Major, CAP

capchiro

Excellent, I have been foiled on my own sabre...In my haste of response, I naturally forgot to put down the minimum basic AF style uniform, which is the required uniform for cadets and is optional for senior members, optional in that senior members may wear the CAP distinctive aviator outfit/uniform or the AF style (depending upon personal choice and weight/grooming standards)....My bad, I humbly apologize....and hope I haven't misled any of our fine cadets.... For reference CAPM 39-1, 1-5 (a.) and (b.)
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

shorning

Quote from: capchiro on October 05, 2005, 11:22:52 AM
Excellent, I have been foiled on my own sabre...In my haste of response, I naturally forgot to put down the minimum basic AF style uniform, which is the required uniform for cadets and is optional for senior members, optional in that senior members may wear the CAP distinctive aviator outfit/uniform or the AF style (depending upon personal choice and weight/grooming standards)....My bad, I humbly apologize....and hope I haven't misled any of our fine cadets.... For reference CAPM 39-1, 1-5 (a.) and (b.)


Hmmm....I seem to recall that seniors only are required to wear a uniform if they are working with cadets.  So it's possible that a member might never wear a uniform.  As long as they don't work with cadets, drive a corporate vehicle, or fly a corporate aircraft.    Of course I could be mistaken since I haven't been active in the past few years...

capchiro

While common sense would seem to support you and I do believe you are right about the older days, CAPM 39-1 states that the member will equip himself/herself with the basic uniform and that it is the member's responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform and that the minimum basic uniform for cadets is the blue Air Force shirt/trouser combo, while the minimum basic uniform for seniors is the same or the CAP distinctive aviator shirt/gray trouser combo.  With this language in mind, it sounds like we are to have a uniform, but are we required to wear it?  I think the cadet manual may require seniors working with cadets to wear a uniform, but I don't have the manual here, so I am not sure on that.  You are right about the corporate vehicle, corporate aircraft and I think on Air force aircraft also...However, there is no place in the manual that states a cadet or anyone must have and wear BDU's, and instead it states that such wear may only be reuired if the BDU's or other optional items are supplied without expense or the wear is voluntary, ie., as in not mandatory.  This leads to the question about weither we can require cadets to bring BDU's to summer encampment??? 
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

dankaten

You are correct. Senior members are not required to wear a uniform unless they are working with Cadets, flying in corporate aircraft or driving a corporate vehicle. Cadets are provided a blues shirt and pants to wear but that is all.
As a Squadron Commander you can say what is the minimum but you have to keep in mind that you may lose members if you designate a particular uniform and cannot provide it to the members.
My recommendation is that if you don't have a complete uniform so that you can wear it appropriately then wear civilian clothes. I choose to say the same thing when it comes to Cadets. The only people that I require to have a uniform are the Senior Members working with Cadets because it says they must have a uniform according to regulations.

Cpt. Katen
Commander
Delta Composite Squadron
TX334
Cpt. Katen
Commander
Delta Composite Squadron
TX334

md132

To answer the first question asked.  The answer could be answered by AFI 10-2701 Organization and Function of Civil Air Patrol.  The link is http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/10/afi10-2701/afi10-2701.pdf

But I would have to say yes and no to the question of Is CAP a military organization.  Yes because we are part of the Air Force family and we follow military customs, learn drills and ceremonies, etc.  No, because we do not have the same status as AD military.  As CAP we cannot give an order to an AD airmen and so forth.  Our rank is basically considered honorary.  We do not get the same courtesies as AD military. 

Also to comment about uniforms and working with cadets.  I work with cadets and I either wear my service uniform for the first meeting of the moth than the rest of the month I would wear one of the corporate uniforms.  As long as the member wears one of the approved uniforms and it is appropiate for the activity and is work correctly, it should be fine. 

BlueLakes1

FYI, members are not required to be in uniform when driving or riding in CAP corporate vehicles. Answer #1610 from the Knowledgebase:

Requirement to wear a CAP uniform while riding in a CAP vehicle

  Question
  Must a uniform be worn to drive/ride in a CAP van? If so, by driver and all pax?

  Answer
  There is no specific requirement for senior members to be in uniform while driving or riding in a CAP van unless they are participating in or conducting the cadet program (unless the wing or region has established such a requirement.)

CAP uniform wear is required by all while participating in or conducting the cadet program or flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used in CAP flight activity). If cadets and seniors working with cadets are traveling in a CAP vehicle while participating in the cadet program, they normally should be in uniform. However, the regulation does allow region or wing commanders, or designees (usually group or unit commanders), to prescribe the type clothing to be worn by members while flying or engaging in organized recreational activities. In this case cadets might be authorized by a commander to ride in CAP vehicles wearing civilian clothes. For example, during a volunteer clean up day or trip to a theme park or unit picnic or other social gathering, all CAP members would likely be in civilian clothes.

See Table 1-1 below from The new CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual has been published effective 23 Mar 2005. See Answer 1133: CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual published

Table 1-1. Wearing the CAP Uniform
Wear the uniform while participating in or conducting the cadet program or flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used in CAP flight activity). The service uniform, BDU, utility uniform, field uniform, CAP or AF-style flight suit, CAP blazer, aviator shirt, or knit shirt uniform combinations are all authorized. The wing commander, or designee, will prescribe the type clothing to be worn by members while flying or engaging in organized recreational activities. The region commander will prescribe wear policy for members of the region headquarters.

Also see Answer 809: Driving a CAP vehicle Click Here

Answer 808: Procedures for obtaining a CAP Motor Vehicle Operator Identification Card Click Here
Col Matthew Creed, CAP
GLR/CC

WICAPMOM

Quote from: Pylon on October 03, 2005, 04:00:33 PM
Well definitely good luck with that decision.  It certainly is one that should undergo careful consideration of your time commitment and ability to withstand stress (not to scare you off, but to be realistic about it)!   

As you so aptly put, one of the great aspects of CAPTalk in my opinion, is the uncanny ability for all of us to discuss (and often disagree) in such a professional and civil manner.  Agreeing to disagree and civilly bringing up each individual's points-of-view on the matter with respect for others' opinions has been such a great thing to see in action here.  It really makes us unique from other CAP-related discussion sites, in my opinion, and I have to hand it to all of you for being the ones to make that happen.  :)

And since I'm suddenly in the habit of quoting others' comments, I'll quote one of the individuals at SLS this weekend regarding your comment about there's always more to learn.  It was said, "You only stop learning when they put the first shovelful of dirt on ya."  You're right -- we all stand to learn from the experiences of others, no matter what our personal level of expertise might be. 

Good luck!
Thank you for your thoughts!  I really do appreciate what a time consuming job it is and difficult choice I have to make.

I would be lying if I said I was not afraid or hesitant to make such an important decision.

My friend, Nick, the current squadron commander, has been asking me to think about it for a couple of years now.  I have kept putting it off, claiming it would take to much time away from my twins.  But now I am thinking that if I am going to do this I better start before my kids join.

Add to this the fact that I have recently joined our wing's AE staff.  (I am working on my masters rating in Aerospace Education.)

One of the hardest parts of my decision now is that I would be leaving my current squadron which I absolutely love.  I have been there for over 12 years.  Even though I know I would still be working with them a lot and that my husband will remain there.

Like many of us I am basically addicted to CAP.  There is always more to learn if you are willing.  Fortunately I still want to learn more which is why I have to grow and move on.
Julie Anne
Major, CAP ~ Commander
Milwaukee Comp Sqdn 5 (WI-061)

biZarre

WICAPMOM - Hello from a long lost former WI cadet / senior!  It has been a long time, but it is good to hear that your still addi... erm... active.  :)

Just a quick note of encouragement in your decision to possibly switch squadrons.  I was in a similar situation up here in MN, and decided to take the leap. 

After moving to MN, I joined a struggling unit that was close to closing it's doors.  They had just got a new squadron cc, and were looking for a deputy for cadets.  Thankfully I fit the bill.  We were able to get the cadet program stable, and in a few years with lots of help from all the squadron(and a awesome squa CC) we grew into one of the powerhouses of the wing. 
 
Then I was asked to take command, but in a different squadron.  I did not know anyone in the new squadron, and was following a commander who had not been very active.

Did I make the jump?  Yes.  Was it worth it? Yes!  My 3 years (oh my.. its been that long) as a squ cc have taught me a great deal about both CAP and myself.  It's a continuation of all those leadership classes from the cadet program, and senior professional development.   In a way, its like being on an actual mission, where you finally get to use all those skills that you've been practicing. 
It was a little strange to be the commander of a unit where I was the newest person there, but thankfully the squadron accepted the change, and were able to move forward. 
My old squadron is still going strong, and I've been able to use my contacts between the squadrons to help plan joint projects.    I would think being in Squ 12 would put you in a great situation to know your resources around the wing. 

Best wishes in your decision.  I know I was worried after taking command, but it's been a very rewarding experience.   
Doug Kilian, Lt Col, CAP
Director of Cadet Programs
Minnesota Wing

WICAPMOM

"Doug Kilian" now there's a name I have not heard in a while.  Good to hear from you.  I hope all is well in your world!  I don't think that I have seen you since the 1990's.  I think I saw you last at 1991 encampment when I was the squadron x/o for squadron 1, just before I became a senior.

Just so everyone knows... I have accepted the Squadron Commander position.  I am not sure when we will do the change of command.  First I have to transfer squadrons from 12 to 5.

Julie Anne
Major, CAP ~ Commander
Milwaukee Comp Sqdn 5 (WI-061)

Dan

Dan Bilitz, Capt, CAP
Aerospace Education Officer
WI-057 Col. R.C. Jaye Mem. Comp. Sqdn.

WICAPMOM

Julie Anne
Major, CAP ~ Commander
Milwaukee Comp Sqdn 5 (WI-061)

Pylon

Quote from: WICAPMOM on October 13, 2005, 06:00:48 PM
"Doug Kilian" now there's a name I have not heard in a while.  Good to hear from you.  I hope all is well in your world!  I don't think that I have seen you since the 1990's.  I think I saw you last at 1991 encampment when I was the squadron x/o for squadron 1, just before I became a senior.

Just so everyone knows... I have accepted the Squadron Commander position.  I am not sure when we will do the change of command.  First I have to transfer squadrons from 12 to 5.



Indeed, the best of luck and good wishes to you!   Hopefully we can be your behind-the-scenes support group.  ;)
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP