Flying cadets in non-orientation (C-17) flights?

[jimmydeanno]

Says who, airplanes and chaplains are the bright line exception to the no one-on-one rule.

THERE IS NO "ONE-ON-ONE RULE"

Seniors can be alone with cadets.  You only need 1 senior with CPPT completed at any single day activity.  If it's overnight, you need two.

[SJFedor]

Hey gang, this is great stuff!  Sorry for the long delay in replying to these numerous posts. 

These are great comments.  Biggest concerns I heard of back here at home have been more along the lines of liability having cadets on board.  Trying to avoid the Cadet Orientation route, because then it's now a training flight, and cadets are only allowed .7 to 1.2 hours of flight time.  Then we would also have to follow a certain syllabus, etc..  Takes the fun out of a C-17 / $100 hamburger ride.  I have non-pilot seniors at my squadron signing up for these rides left and right.  Only issue I have really seen is flying a single cadet on a non-orientation ride is a no-no due to Cadet protection policies, so in that case, an orientation flight would be a must.

I have heard a few requests like tagging along on the $100 hamburger run, to flying out to the CAP glider park, to just wanting to fly to some of the air museums located at various airports.  Good stuff here. 

Here's one last question, regulatory-style.  Let's say next week an aircraft needs to be flown out to our centralized maintenance facility to pick up the pilot that just dropped off the aircraft scheduled for it's annual.  Single cadet wants to tag along (and in my opinion - should).  An Mx mission is an A9 mission and has a mission number.  In that case, a cadet IS authorized to fly in that aircraft because it has an air force mission number associated with it, right?  Thoughts?

When I did flight training as a cadet, it wasn't as an orientation flight and CPPT wasn't a problem. Read the CPPT regulation again. People tend to make up rules that aren't really written. Of course, good judgement is always used.

Because it's an AFAM for that Mx flight, there might be some nuiances involved. Originally, I was thinking there's the "to/from base only" rule for cadets on AFAMs, but then I remembered "Oh yeah, O-rides are done on an AFAM" so I'd rely on the guidance of your FRO, unit commander and operations officer on that one. WIWAC, all the Mx flights were C-9's, so there was never a problem of me jumping on board and tagging along. In fact, those mx flights were how I really got my start in flying, not so much the o-rides.

There's no reason a cadet can't fly on any C-mission unless there's specific crew requirements. The only requirement to be a passenger on a CAP aircraft, barring any specific quals (MO, MS, AP, CD, etc) is found in CAPR 60-1, para 2-3, which a CAP cadet meets.

[Eclipse]

Says who, airplanes and chaplains are the bright line exception to the no one-on-one rule.

THERE IS NO "ONE-ON-ONE RULE"

Seniors can be alone with cadets.  You only need 1 senior with CPPT completed at any single day activity.  If it's overnight, you need two.

No matter how loud we keep saying it, people choose to believe you can't be 1-on-1 with a cadet.

[Patterson]

^ Agreed, but do you really want to be??  Unless it is your kid, do you really know what he or she might accuse you of?!?!  Parents these days are shady as well...........

[Crash]

Ok...   Hmmm....  Can anyone guide me to which regulation or policy clearly states that?  (the chaplains and airplanes no-cppt, that is)  If this is indeed the case, I am going to make quite a few cadets at my squadron very happy.

[jeders]

Ok...   Hmmm....  Can anyone guide me to which regulation or policy clearly states that?  (the chaplains and airplanes no-cppt, that is)  If this is indeed the case, I am going to make quite a few cadets at my squadron very happy.

Here you go.

Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

So while jimmydeanno is technically right that there is no "one-on-one" rule, there is such a thing as being careful and protecting yourself. However, my point in bringing it up was that flying is explicitly exempt from the recommendation.

[Crash]

Ah, but once again we are talking about "orientation flights" versus say proficiency (C-17) flying.  Completely different animal.  Does the CAPR 52-10 or 60-1 specifically allow or prohibit a single cadet from flying with a single pilot (orientation or otherwise) on a non-orientation flight?  This seems to be the sticky point.  That's why I am looking for a hard reg or policy that specifically states either.

The other wording I am concerned about is "cadet activity".  Is a cadet in uniform flying in a CAP aircraft considered a "cadet activity"?  Is any activity, mission or otherwise, automatically considered cadet activity?  Is CPPT exempt in any aircraft flight, or only orientation flights?  What about other AF authorized mission activity like an Mx flight?  Lots of comments here, but I haven't seen anything hard or regulatory yet.  Any other thoughts?

[jeders]

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

[jimmydeanno]

Is CPPT exempt in any aircraft flight, or only orientation flights?  What about other AF authorized mission activity like an Mx flight?  Lots of comments here, but I haven't seen anything hard or regulatory yet.  Any other thoughts?

The CPPT is never exempt. 

If you are conducting your flight and the cadet goes home the same day, you don't need two seniors.  Should you decide to hunker down overnight, you'll need another senior.

The 52-10 is the authority on your supervisory commitments.

[Eclipse]

There is(are) no "gray area", "sticky situation", or "different circumstances".

The text is clear.

One (1) senior member, with no regard to gender is required for any CAP activity.

Two (2) senior members with no regard to gender are required for any overnight activities.

You can make all the arguments you want about ORM, CYA, or "common sense", but do not confuse those with regulatory requirements.

[jimmydeanno]

There is(are) no "gray area", "sticky situation", or "different circumstances".

The text is clear.

One (1) senior member, with no regard to gender is required for any CAP activity.

Two (2) senior members with no regard to gender are required for any overnight activities.

You can make all the arguments you want about ORM, CYA, or "common sense", but do not confuse those with regulatory requirements.

Just to clarify, the 52-10 covers that under commander responsibilities in section 4.d.  The 52-16 is clarifying that requirement.

[Crash]

Thanks All!

jimmydeanno, I am unable to find your referenced 52-16

Mind sending me a link on that?  Much appreciated!

Eclipse, wow, forgot all about those basic standards.  Thanks!!!

[jimmydeanno]

CAPR 52-16 is the Cadet Program Management Regulation: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/capr_5216_C8EDC47E7F572.pdf

a. Proper Supervision. Unit commanders will take all reasonable measures necessary to protect cadets from harm while under CAP supervision. Senior members will be present at all activities involving cadets. For CAP guidelines on the Cadet Protection Policy, see CAPR 52-10, Cadet Protection Policy, and CAPP 50-3, CAP Cadet Protection Training Instructor's Guide and Student Materials.

CAPR 52-10 is the Cadet Protection Program Regulation: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R052_010_C5B73B2B78712.pdf

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

CAPP 50-3 is the Cadet Protection Student Guide: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P050_003.pdf

Unit commanders will take all reasonable measures necessary to protect cadets from harm while under CAP supervision. Adult members will be present at all activities involving cadets.
All cadet activities must be supervised properly. Commanders must exercise care in selecting adult members and older cadets to conduct and supervise cadet activities.
Generally, this means that a minimum of two senior members will be present when appropriate and feasible. Two senior members must be present at any overnight cadet activity. This requirement also protects our members from false allegations of abuse.

[Eclipse]

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

My guess would be that this is where the wive's tale about Chaplain's or O-Pilots being the only seniors allowed 1-on-1 with cadets comes from.

[peter rabbit]

CAPR 60-1 para 2-3d - make sure the pilot is qualified to fly cadets:

Only pilots that are qualified as CAP Instructors, Cadet/AFROTC/AFJROTC Orientation Pilots, or SAR/DR or Transport Mission Pilots (during Supervised Missions) may carry CAP cadets as passengers or crew members.

[Patterson]

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

I do not believe you are correct.  I am under the impression that Cadets are explicitly forbidden to fly on "A Missions" when transporting or ferrying planes and pilots. 

[SJFedor]

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

I do not believe you are correct.  I am under the impression that Cadets are explicitly forbidden to fly on "A Missions" when transporting or ferrying planes and pilots.

Why?

[SarDragon]

Ok...   Hmmm....  Can anyone guide me to which regulation or policy clearly states that?  (the chaplains and airplanes no-cppt, that is)  If this is indeed the case, I am going to make quite a few cadets at my squadron very happy.

Here you go.

Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

So while jimmydeanno is technically right that there is no "one-on-one" rule, there is such a thing as being careful and protecting yourself. However, my point in bringing it up was that flying is explicitly exempt from the recommendation.

If you copied and pasted directly from the reg, you've got an olde version.

The current text, emphasis mine:

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

[ßτε]

Ok...   Hmmm....  Can anyone guide me to which regulation or policy clearly states that?  (the chaplains and airplanes no-cppt, that is)  If this is indeed the case, I am going to make quite a few cadets at my squadron very happy.

Here you go.

Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

So while jimmydeanno is technically right that there is no "one-on-one" rule, there is such a thing as being careful and protecting yourself. However, my point in bringing it up was that flying is explicitly exempt from the recommendation.

If you copied and pasted directly from the reg, you've got an olde version.

The current text, emphasis mine:

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

The quote is the same as yours except it doesn't have the first sentence. Perhaps it wasn't included because the first sentence is not relevant to the discussion since we are not talking about overnight activities.

[cap235629]

ensure and encourage are two different words