/rant

Started by Extremepredjudice, August 23, 2011, 03:10:46 AM

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Extremepredjudice

First some back story:
My squadron had 2 flights, alpha flight is the experienced cadets, bravo is the newbies...
I am a member of alpha.
Our flight has a c/TSgt as flight sgt, and a A1c as assistant flight sgt.
No element leaders/flight commander.

Our flight is the experienced flight, so we joke and mess around during training... Most or all of us know when and where to joke around... If we can complete the drill, who cares if we crack a joke or two? There is only CAP there, no reason to be professional, at that moment. Our sgt makes sure we keep it reasonable. Nothing over the top, we do stuff like, when we pass a stop sign, we just ran that stop sign! The cops are after us! I am the quiet, do what you are told, don't complain.

I passed my wright bros. A while ago, so I filled out the paperwork for drill exam, and review board.

The Cadet commander tells me I can't take it, since I still have 31 days. I grumped, breifly, cause I know he takes his review boards earlier than that.  I let it slide, who cares?

Also, I needed to take the drill exam. I asked a few of the sergeants, anything I need to know?(like an obscure drill command) The first one (TSgt) is like "there is a drill exam????"
Second one(SSgt) "I didn't take one"
So between the 3 of us we remember the cover sheet of the wright bros. Test... Says something like "an experienced cadet or SM will take you and drill you"
Sounds like a 1 on 1...right?

So at that meeting, we did drills, our flight sgt didn't show... We march over to our flight's area, without SM supervision(we never have a sm watching alpha). So our assistance flight sgt (this is her second time commanding...) is assisted by bravo flight's assistant flight sgt.  Before they could drill us, our cadet commander strolls up, and makes me fallout, puts me infront of the flight, and says this is your drill exam... I am trying to maintain my cool, this is my first time commanding an entire flight, plus I thought it was a 1 on 1 exam.. Before that, I only commanded a couple guys, and we where playing knockout, for fun.

So, I take a deep breath, and commanded the flight... I was horrid... I called a few commands on the wrong foot, waited to long between the prep, and execution, etc.

So he fails me, and complains I was screaming at the flight... Tbh I was surprised, and confused... I was trying to be loud enough for everyone to hear me, I didn't think I was screaming... I was quieter than he was.

So I am a bit disappointed, but brush it off... The commander then proceeds with placing a few other people in charge, one by one... Some did good, some did bad..

Eventually, the cadet commander takes over again, and chews us out for making our usually rounds of jokes, and talking at attention..

He then proceeds to force us to do 4 count pushups. Claims it is for our pt scores..  (totalled 30, I did roughly 50)

Everyone started saying that was hazing, and for what ever reason, the assistant flight sgt did arm circles? Go figure...

Now I don't mind doing the pushups... I just don't want to do them in our bdus/boots. Then he proceeds to force us to run around a bit... Now, I don't mind running. I enjoy pt. I do not want to run in my freshly cleaned bdus, or my shined shows...

/endrant

Thoughts?
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Hanlon's Razor
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"Flight make chant; I good leader"

Майор Хаткевич

First thought: Troll?
Second thought: Reminds me of my first squadron.
Third thought: Where are the SMs.
Fourth thought: Why are you bringing this here
Fifth thought: Take this up the chain
Sixth thought: What grade is the C/CC?

Spaceman3750

Regardless of whatever anyone did to wrong you or anyone else, this is the wrong place to address it.

Extremepredjudice

I know, I wasn't going to adress this at a higher level, unless this is pulled again.

I was looking for sage advise
Who is the troll?
He is a captain.
I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
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Spaceman3750

Quote from: Extremepredjudice on August 23, 2011, 03:18:51 AM
unless this is pulled again.

??? Who says anything was "pulled" at all? You might be right, you might be wrong, all I know is that I only have one side of the story and almost everything you have listed can be perfectly acceptable when taken in a different perspective or context (though the 4 count pushups are odd).

a2capt

Quote from: Extremepredjudice on August 23, 2011, 03:10:46 AMThoughts?
I don't even know where to start. There's so much wrong in that story..

"No reason to be professional" is a good place to start. Just imagine if you had taken the rest of that meeting time a little more serious. You might have passed that Wright Brothers drill test. You might have set the standard.

When our color guard team went to the various competitions, they were there to do a job. They knew what they had to do. They went to breakfast in step. Then back to quarters in step, to report to each event in step. In formation. In the mood.

Why? Because they had a job to do.

At your meeting, you have a job to do. Your flight staff, your command staff, they have a job to do. If you want to joke around, it will show, and it did.

There's plenty of reason to be professional.

The senior members never watch alpha flight.. well, maybe alpha flight needs to be bravo flight for a while, and bravo can be charlie, because it doesn't sound like the unit is ready for an Alpha Flight.

Probably not the response you were looking for, but, there it is.

If your choice of screen name has any indicator, as well.. it's beginning to come into focus.

titanII

This wasn't as bad as I'd thought it would be from the title.

Here are my thoughts:

[My Opinion]
Alpha Flight probably shouldn't have gained the habit of making comments, etc. while in formation. I also think that Alpha Flight should have known better than to talk at attention while the Cadet Commander was leading the flight (or even within earshot)

Also, for what it's worth, by "screaming" the Cadet Commander may have meant that you were using your diaphragm improperly (i.e. not enough).

And lastly, the Cadet Commander should not (IMO) have made you do push-ups or run, even if you didn't mind. They shouldn't even do that at Encampment (outside of PT). A more effective and appropriate solution would have been to bring Alpha inside for a stern talking-to about what the position of attention and military bearing are.
[/My Opinion]
No longer active on CAP talk

DakRadz

Quiet screaming is still different from proper diaphragm usage.

Trust me, I've had to correct the exact same issue.

EDIT: titanII, never read my mind again- that's an order! ;D

Майор Хаткевич

Is anyone missing the fact that they clearly don't test for the WBA correctly?

Extremepredjudice

Quote from: a2capt on August 23, 2011, 03:24:01 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on August 23, 2011, 03:10:46 AMThoughts?
I don't even know where to start. There's so much wrong in that story..

"No reason to be professional" is a good place to start. Just imagine if you had taken the rest of that meeting time a little more serious. You might have passed that Wright Brothers drill test. You might have set the standard.

When our color guard team went to the various competitions, they were there to do a job. They knew what they had to do. They went to breakfast in step. Then back to quarters in step, to report to each event in step. In formation. In the mood.

Why? Because they had a job to do.

At your meeting, you have a job to do. Your flight staff, your command staff, they have a job to do. If you want to joke around, it will show, and it did.

There's plenty of reason to be professional.

The senior members never watch alpha flight.. well, maybe alpha flight needs to be bravo flight for a while, and bravo can be charlie, because it doesn't sound like the unit is ready for an Alpha Flight.

Probably not the response you were looking for, but, there it is.

If your choice of screen name has any indicator, as well.. it's beginning to come into focus.
we do stay in step, we do everything perfect, or close to.
I stated I keep my head down. I don't make the jokes, because I am horrid at jokes.

I do act professional, believe it or not. I have passed every test I have taken. In and out side of CAP.

I take CAP seriously, it does seem like I am trying to make excuses or something, I'm not.
If I act inappropiate, I own up.

On a sorta unrelated note, but a character reference. If I acted unprofessionally, didn't take things seriously, or disrespected authority, I wouldn't be an assistant clerk of courts, at 16. It isn't a job, it is a volunteer position... I get 500 hours community service from that, alone.

The advice I seem to be getting is gt*o, troll. Not what I expected, but maybe you have a point.

I didn't think I was misusing my diapharm... I will look into that.
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Hanlon's Razor
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DakRadz

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 23, 2011, 03:39:39 AM
Is anyone missing the fact that they clearly don't test for the WBA correctly?
i.e. Drill test means they test YOU, not "show us what you can do"?

Yeah, thought did cross my mind.

a2capt

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 23, 2011, 03:39:39 AMIs anyone missing the fact that they clearly don't test for the WBA correctly?
As I said, I didn't even get that far. The whole thing sounds like Romper Room to me.

Okay, it may not be you, as you are saying, however it still sounds way more dysfunctional that not.. and that may work in it's own microcosm. When you go to other units, it's going to show.

I realize, it's only one mans text description. Viewing from up close would be the reasonable thing to do, to make a better opinion.

Read your post from an outsiders perspective, if possible. With thoughts on 52-16 and such in mind.

lordmonar

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 23, 2011, 03:39:39 AM
Is anyone missing the fact that they clearly don't test for the WBA correctly?

In and amonst all the other things they don't do correctly?

CPP violations.
Testing Violations.
Lack of SM supervision
Lack of Cadet supervision.

Our flight is experinced.....C/TSgt in charge with a C/A1c as back up?  I hate to see the Bravo Flight!

Okay........for the OP.

First.....please inform your Depurty Command for Cadets for Squadron Commander that your C/CC violated a hard line item in the CPP.
Second....see your CDC and find out about the tests.
Third....you should not ever be suprised by the drill command on the test......it is what you should be practicing everyday you have drill.
Fourth.....Really CT is not the place to be bringing this stuff up.  You have a chain of command use it.  If you just want to complain.....well...okay but really if you don't want help....don't waste our time.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Extremepredjudice

Quote from: lordmonar on August 23, 2011, 04:12:49 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 23, 2011, 03:39:39 AM
Is anyone missing the fact that they clearly don't test for the WBA correctly?


Our flight is experinced.....C/TSgt in charge with a C/A1c as back up?  I hate to see the Bravo flight!
bravo has 2 TSgts...
We have a SSgt in alpha that doesn't do anything


Thanks all
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Short Field

Have your parents call the Wing Commander and explain what happened.  If that doesn't create a response, contact the Region Commander.  This squadron is in bad shape and needs some serious HHQ oversight and some adult leadership.  It is NOT a CAP squadron anymore but a place for kids to hang out.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

BuckeyeDEJ

There's so many breaches of the core values in this, right down to posting on this forum instead of working through the complaints system, that I don't think any of us could start in the same place. Stunning, isn't it?

I just hope your unit isn't in my wing.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

The CyBorg is destroyed

#16
Alright, for what my $.02 and almost 18 years in CAP are worth, as a deputy commander, testing officer and general layabout...

This sounds like an overall lack of organisation and breakdown in command from the getgo...both never should have happened but both are fixable.

First of all, I would want to know why there is an SSgt in either flight who "doesn't do anything."  SSgt is an NCO rank.  NCO's provide leadership, both in the CAP and in the Armed Forces.  The Air Force used to have two grades in E-4, Senior Airman (SrA) and Sergeant (usually called "buck").  Both were E-4's but Sgt was an NCO and SrA was not, just as in the Army a Corporal and a Specialist are both E-4's, but a Corporal outranks a Specialist and the Corporal is an NCO.  With NCO status comes a lot of expectations, leadership being first among them.  An AF SrA has to attend Airman Leadership School before being considered for SSgt.

Your "do-nothing" SSgt needs to start doing something.

Not talking in formation and/or at the position of attention is something that is fundamental to military forming practice.

Senior Officers not watching Alpha Flight?  Red flag.  Our Alpha Flight is the more experienced flight, but there is almost always an officer detailed to observe them - even if said observation is not really noticeable or close-up.  Often if I'm not busy at the moment  ;D ;D ;D I will do so.

And...this should go without saying, but the minute you put that uniform on you have a reason, an obligation and a duty to be professional, irrespective of rank or cadet/senior status.

Also...as others have correctly pointed out, this is not the place to make such problems known.  You do not know who is reading this.  There may well be someone from your squadron, group or wing who will recognise the situation and may take a corrective action...usually in an unfavourable light.  The CoC exists for a reason.  Use it.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Extremepredjudice

#17
My apoligies, I wasn't clear:The sergeant wants to, but is told "there aren't any positions open" which is untrue.

Yes, I do realise this isn't the place to post this.  :-[ :'(

Edit: If My parents called wing, isn't that skipping the CoC?
My impression was you start at the bottom, abd if nothing comes of it you move to the next person, even if it is the person you have a problem with.

Besides, I don't want to become a 'whiner' which, regardless if I am correct or not, I will most likely be labeled as.

I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

BillB

One thing I note, many of the responses are from senior members, with the senior member viewpoint. Look at the problem in this Squadron from the cadet viewpoint. The problems that the cadet mentions are all from the cadet view of the Squadron. To many cadets the Squadron CC is in a position almost as a god and unapprochable. For most cadets the CoC ends with the Cadet Commander, maybe DCP. So a cadet may look to outside avenues to vent their frustrations. Maybe CT is the wrong avenue, but from the posts, the cadet got the answers he was looking for.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Eclipse

Quote from: Extremepredjudice on August 23, 2011, 03:10:46 AMOur flight is the experienced flight, so we joke and mess around during training... Most or all of us know when and where to joke around...

I stopped reading right there.  You're done.

For the record, if you believe the PT was done as a punitive measure, you should address it with your commander.

"That Others May Zoom"

HGjunkie

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 23, 2011, 05:19:53 AM
I just hope your unit isn't in my wing.

For the record, he posted a couple days back that he was in Group 2.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

BillB

But Group 2 covers 1/3 of the state of Florida
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

a2capt

..and 1/3rd of the state does qualify as in your wing.

Woodsy

We don't like to claim certain parts of the state as being Florida...  And that has nothing to do with CAP!!!  ;)

Eagle

This isn't as important, but if you are still using the older Leadership material (not Learn to Lead) you are not required to take drill tests, which might explain why your sergeants didn't know about the drill test.
C/2dLt Thomas Bracker
Pell City Composite Squadron
Alpha Flight Commander

a2capt

The Wright Brothers drill test is required for either curriculum. It is also identical for both. L2K has it printed on one page, L2L has it on two pages. Thats about the difference. Meaning, it was not added after the fact, it's always been there.

Extremepredjudice

#26
Regardless, it was supposed to be a one on one.

It did help me realise there is more to marshelling troops than I thought.

I am going to bury the hatchet, and press on.

Is the first 3 or 4 tests what the drill exam should've been?
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPT_782_Drill_Test_FINAL_0D0A619D59581.pdf
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a2capt

#27
That is the drill tests for the first 8 chapters, under the L2L curriculum. (Online Testing), not including the Wright Brothers. L2K has drill only with Chapters 1, 2, and 4. In addition to the same Wright Brothers Award drill portion.

The Wright Brothers drill is done with a flight, or at least four cadets, two columns. The outcome of the test is not based on anything they do, just you..  But it is not one on one.

The drill would have been .. 20 steps. Encompassing the first three chapters since it is comprehensive.

..and look what I found:

http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=Wright_Brothers_Award_Exam

For this stuff to be adequately evaluated, you need additional cadets. The conditions of the test are right there on the drill sheet.

Extremepredjudice

I know all of them :)
Except I am a bit shaky on extend/close march and column of files... Mostly because I have only seen it on paper....
I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

titanII

Quote from: Extremepredjudice on August 24, 2011, 07:42:12 AM
Except I am a bit shaky on extend/close march and column of files... Mostly because I have only seen it on paper....
Well for Column of Files, you don't need to do much besides say the command (if you're leading the flight).
To be honest, I'm a bit shaky on extend/close march as well  ;)
No longer active on CAP talk

Eagle

Quote from: a2capt on August 24, 2011, 01:14:36 AM
The Wright Brothers drill test is required for either curriculum. It is also identical for both. L2K has it printed on one page, L2L has it on two pages. Thats about the difference. Meaning, it was not added after the fact, it's always been there.
My bad. I didn't see the part about him needing the Wright Brothers drill test. I thought it was just a normal promotion.
C/2dLt Thomas Bracker
Pell City Composite Squadron
Alpha Flight Commander

CAPC/officer125

Quote from: Short Field on August 23, 2011, 05:06:52 AM
Have your parents call the Wing Commander and explain what happened.  If that doesn't create a response, contact the Region Commander.  This squadron is in bad shape and needs some serious HHQ oversight and some adult leadership.  It is NOT a CAP squadron anymore but a place for kids to hang out.
I know the OP has questioned this and it would definitely be breaking Chain of Command if his parents call the Wing Commander, that is, unless the  Squadron or Group commander don't do anything. However, from what I can tell, the OP hasn't talked to his Squadron level CoC yet and should do that before going to the Group, Wing, or Region Commander.

To the OP:
Good job for keeping your head down and not joking around, keep that up. However, no matter if you are ok with doing PT, it was being used as a punishment (from what I can tell) which is against CPP. Someone else has said this, but the proper thing for your C/CC to have done would have been to either pull the entire flight aside and address the problem sternly, or pull just the Flight Sergeant and Asst. Flight Sergeant aside, address the problem with them, and let them take care of it inside the flight.
Also, as others have pointed out, your Alpha flight is the experienced flight and therefore should be setting the example to the training flight. You may know the stuff and therefore can afford to be a little lax, but it is not setting the example to the cadets that training. If you feel the need to joke around, a place should be found to do that. Inside the flight is not the place for it.
C/LtCol Priscilla (Pat) Temaat
Eaker #2228
Earhart #14523
KS-001- KSWG HQ staff
2012 Joint Dakota Cadet Leadership Encampment Cadet Commander

wacapgh

Quote from: Eagle on August 24, 2011, 12:45:59 AM
This isn't as important, but if you are still using the older Leadership material (not Learn to Lead) you are not required to take drill tests, which might explain why your sergeants didn't know about the drill test.

All cadets who joined after 1 JULY 2010 will use the Learn to Lead program (CAPR 52-16 5-3,b).

Eclipse

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 24, 2011, 05:38:10 PMHave your parents call the Wing Commander and explain what happened.  If that doesn't create a response, contact the Region Commander.

Assuming they aren't members, his parents aren't in the chain, they aren't even in the organization.  Naturally they should discuss this first with
the unit CC, but barring an acceptable answer (even if it's only not acceptable to them), they should not feel reluctant to call whomever they feel
like calling.

In properly run squadrons (or any organization), the answer you get at the highest level should not differ much from the answer you get at the ground, assuming that to be the case, personal decisions might have to be made as to continue participation in CAP.  If the answer is different, that might get something fixed.

"That Others May Zoom"

Short Field

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 24, 2011, 05:38:10 PM
Quote from: Short Field on August 23, 2011, 05:06:52 AM
Have your parents call the Wing Commander and explain what happened.  If that doesn't create a response, contact the Region Commander.  This squadron is in bad shape and needs some serious HHQ oversight and some adult leadership.  It is NOT a CAP squadron anymore but a place for kids to hang out.
I know the OP has questioned this and it would definitely be breaking Chain of Command if his parents call the Wing Commander, that is, unless the  Squadron or Group commander don't do anything.
If this stuff is happening, there is no Chain of Command, just a bunch of goofs wearing uniforms.  The parents need to immediately call the wing commander and get it fixed.  As pointed out, his parents are not CAP and the COC means absolutely nothing to them.  It was always interesting in the RM to see the response a parental complaint to a congressman has on a unit - and their COC.   
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

BuckeyeDEJ

So this cadet is in Florida Wing, albeit the south Georgia part of it. (Group 2 includes Jacksonville, Ocala and Gainesville -- it may be the largest in terms of land area, but Group 3 -- the greater Tampa Bay area -- is the largest, with 1,000 members -- almost 1/4 of the wing's 4,200 members.)

I would suggest that if parents become involved and get no satisfaction with the squadron commander, the parents could go to the group commander. The new Group 2 commander's a stand-up guy. I personally think this is an issue for group level, at most.

There's a slew of issues here. And there's always the problem squadron. But squadrons take on their leaders' personality and the culture emanates from them, and squadron commanders are ultimately responsible for their units... my personal feeling (speaking as a former squadron old man, and at the risk of speaking out of turn) is that this squadron commander is a slug, and that this unit may be rotting like a fish -- from the head down.

For those of you who don't know, the real Florida is south of the I-4 corridor. Everything else is Alabama and Georgia. :P


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

Extremepredjudice

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 07, 2011, 05:18:22 AM
So this cadet is in Florida Wing, albeit the south Georgia part of it. (Group 2 includes Jacksonville, Ocala and Gainesville -- it may be the largest in terms of land area, but Group 3 -- the greater Tampa Bay area -- is the largest, with 1,000 members -- almost 1/4 of the wing's 4,200 members.)

I would suggest that if parents become involved and get no satisfaction with the squadron commander, the parents could go to the group commander. The new Group 2 commander's a stand-up guy. I personally think this is an issue for group level, at most.

There's a slew of issues here. And there's always the problem squadron. But squadrons take on their leaders' personality and the culture emanates from them, and squadron commanders are ultimately responsible for their units... my personal feeling (speaking as a former squadron old man, and at the risk of speaking out of turn) is that this squadron commander is a slug, and that this unit may be rotting like a fish -- from the head down.

For those of you who don't know, the real Florida is south of the I-4 corridor. Everything else is Alabama and Georgia. :P
Necro!

I think I stated this before: I will bury the hatchet, unless this happens again.
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Hanlon's Razor
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coudano

Quote from: titanII on August 24, 2011, 02:27:34 PM
Well for Column of Files, you don't need to do much besides say the command (if you're leading the flight).

Unless you're an element leader...
The person giving the commands typically trips over the rhythm and verbiage until they get used to the rhythm.  It's probably the first command a cadet encounters that isn't just   preparatory, EXECUTION format.

QuoteTo be honest, I'm a bit shaky on extend/close march as well  ;)

From a halt, to close march, you simply do right step harch for a specific number of steps.
4th does zero, 3rd does 2. 2nd does 4.  1st does 6.
Make those left steps to extend.

While marching it gets significantly more complicated,
close harch is called on the right foot, everyone except the base file pivots 45 on the next left, takes a specified number of steps (3rd takes 1, 2nd takes 3, and 1st takes 5) and then pivots 45 (back to forward) on the right foot.
extend is called on the left foot, and the next right foot pivots 45, specified steps, and then pivots 45 back to forward on the left.
to complicate matters further, base file automatically goes to half steps, and after the other elements pivot 45 back to the 'forward' direction, the half step is taken up

close and extend march, while marching, are (probably) the most mechanically complex drill maneuvers in the book, in terms of the number of things going on, the number of different things going on at the same time.  Counter march might be as complex or more complex...



as a practical matter, i've only seen close and extend march (while marching) used once in the real world, and I was the flight commander...  we were  marching up a sidewalk at the usafa prep school (a flight of cap cadets on a tour) and there is a place where steps go down in the middle of the sidewalk.  there wasn't room to fit the flight between the step rails and the wall, so i close marched them, and they squeeked through at close interval; and then extended them on the other side.  it wasn't perfectly executed but the right general idea got accomplished.  The usafaps cadets eyes about fell out of their heads haha.

close march (From a halt) is used at USAF BMT all the time, as in every single morning, on the pad under your dorms.  They have to form in column and close interval to make room for everyone down there for the 0430 singing of the air force song.  (good times)