Updated ABU Wear Instructions

[goblin]

I have seen more angst in this org about sleeve rolling than my entire AF career.  And most of the angst has come from cadets who for some reason have this fascination with rolling their sleeves. 

I have worn sleeves down in my ABUs since I started wearing them in 2008 to current.  Personally I would rather have my sleeves down because that's where my pens are, plus it has helped keep me cool during the hot summers in here in CA, the hot summers in AZ and in Korea.

^ This x 1000

Everyone needs to relax. Is there really a two page discussion about the intent of sleeve rolls?

[NIN]

Reasons for sleeves up are what? Dates, temperature, Commander authority, wing authority or safety?!

All of the above?

- Dates
- Temp
- Season
- Safety
- Commander's prerogative
- Higher echelon commander's authority
- Personal preference (of the commander)
- etc

The commander may authorize.. he also may not.

"Up, down, I don't care."

[N6RVT]

So in reading this, it appears that squadron patches are not authorized on the ABU.  Is that your interpretation as well?

That is my interpretation. As well as no ES or Ranger patches.

Aren't the ES patches listed in attachment 8-1 and the ranger tabs in 8-2?  It looks like you can still wear the ranger tab, but now on the center of the pocket instead of above it, which  really sounds like a mistake.

Update authorizes patches in 8.1-3, excluding ES and Ranger tabs.  Other than this exclusion, there is no further mention of Ranger tabs, so not authorized.  Honor Guard and Rocket patch are in 8.4, so not authorized.   No mention of Squadron patches, not authorized.

Squadron patches remain authorized, as are comm and special activities for the left pocket. If they removed auth for squadron patches, there would be a massive (IMO) revolt.

Well arm yourself for the revolution they took them off


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[MSG Mac]

IMHO, my recommendation would be to go with an overall streamlined approach to uniforms, ALL uniforms.  Get rid of the extra patches, only name, branch, and qualification badges.  Lose the national, region, wing and squadron patches as well.  Everyone looks the same.  Dare I say uniformity?  Use the new style ABU grade insignia on the FDU and authorize the sand t-shirt there as well.  In the end, it cuts the cost of having to buy different insignia for different uniforms.

They got rid of the Wing Patches by making them optional.

Read it a little closer. Your Wing Commander is the one who makes the choice about Wing Patches.

I'm actually in a Wing that never made the Wing Patch mandatory and then came out with a new Wing Patch. In that case it truly is optional.

[winterg]

It's my constitutional right to bare arms!

[Storm Chaser]

Retired military, advisor to commander and squadron NCO. So the ABU is supposed to be worn with sleeves down.  CAP is following ABU policy with cut and paste from the AFM. I'm ok with this and understand that.  Most are not reading this as intent but what they want. There are many in my area that don't understand that the word "may" in the wear policy.  "May" authorize, is not authority to wear up all the time.  There is no date for guidance for dates in the year to wear up/down.   Wing guidance has not been established or a Wing supplement to 39-1.  I know it is earlier in the game with changes and guidance forth coming.  Has anyone heard anything or received guidance?

Commanders may authorize sleeves to be rolled up on the ABU coat; however, the cuffs will remain visible and the sleeve will rest at, or within 1 inch of, the forearm when the arm is bent at a 90-degree angle. Regardless as to whether the sleeves are rolled up or unrolled, the cuffs will remain visible at all times.

Commanders may authorize sleeves to be rolled up on the ABU coat; however, the cuffs will remain visible and the sleeve will rest at, or within 1 inch of, the forearm when the arm is bent at a 90-degree angle. Regardless as to whether the sleeves are rolled up or unrolled, the cuffs will remain visible at all times.

The wear policy for CAP is a direct lift from the Air Force Uniform manual. That is the official guidance from NHQ.

If you're the advisor to the commander, you know how this works.  "You're never wrong if you wear the uniform your commander specifies."

Commander: "Next week's meeting will be ABUs utllity or equivalent with the sleeves rolled up." [Edit: my bad, not everybody can wear USAF style]
Members: "Roger!"

As a commander, I personally published the statement that when specified, uniform sleeves would be uniformly worn up or down across the squadron. That way the barracks lawyers were kept at bay.

May authorize is not the same as can mandate. The standard way of wearing the ABU is with sleeves down. I stopped rolling my sleeves up years ago. And unless I was part of a formation or taking a group picture were uniformity was crucial, I would not roll them up. As a commander, I'm not a fan of making optional things mandatory. We have enough of that in CAP.

[NIN]

May authorize is not the same as can mandate. The standard way of wearing the ABU is with sleeves down. I stopped rolling my sleeves up years ago. And unless I was part of a formation or taking a group picture were uniformity was crucial, I would not roll them up. As a commander, I'm not a fan of making optional things mandatory. We have enough of that in CAP.

OK, I see your point. I *can* say "you may roll your sleeves up", but if Cadet Timmy is always cold and prefers his down, well, then...

I think pretty much everybody takes "may authorize" to mean, basically, "The commander can say 'OK, everybody, sleeves up'."  I know thats probably not the way its interpreted in the Air Force based on what you're saying.

OTOH, I was in the Army, and when you were told "sleeves up" it was a mandate, not an invitation for choice

[Storm Chaser]

May authorize is not the same as can mandate. The standard way of wearing the ABU is with sleeves down. I stopped rolling my sleeves up years ago. And unless I was part of a formation or taking a group picture were uniformity was crucial, I would not roll them up. As a commander, I'm not a fan of making optional things mandatory. We have enough of that in CAP.

OK, I see your point. I *can* say "you may roll your sleeves up", but if Cadet Timmy is always cold and prefers his down, well, then...

I think pretty much everybody takes "may authorize" to mean, basically, "The commander can say 'OK, everybody, sleeves up'."  I know thats probably not the way its interpreted in the Air Force based on what you're saying.

OTOH, I was in the Army, and when you were told "sleeves up" it was a mandate, not an invitation for choice

The Army and the Air Force have different cultures. I see a lot from the Army and other services carrying over to CAP (calling hats/caps "cover" or insisting that NCOs can't be called sir but only sergeant comes to mind). But while CAP can and does benefit from the wealth of experience and training that our Army, Navy, Marine, and Coast Guard brethren bring, we can't forget that we're the Air Force Auxiliary and Air Force culture, traditions, terminology, etc. should take precedence from those of other services.

[TheSkyHornet]

May authorize is not the same as can mandate. The standard way of wearing the ABU is with sleeves down. I stopped rolling my sleeves up years ago. And unless I was part of a formation or taking a group picture were uniformity was crucial, I would not roll them up. As a commander, I'm not a fan of making optional things mandatory. We have enough of that in CAP.

OK, I see your point. I *can* say "you may roll your sleeves up", but if Cadet Timmy is always cold and prefers his down, well, then...

I think pretty much everybody takes "may authorize" to mean, basically, "The commander can say 'OK, everybody, sleeves up'."  I know thats probably not the way its interpreted in the Air Force based on what you're saying.

OTOH, I was in the Army, and when you were told "sleeves up" it was a mandate, not an invitation for choice

I think that goes to the "obey my officers" point. Stop arguing just because you're uncomfortable and do what you're told. It's not an unjust order. If CC says roll sleeves, roll them. If he/she says everyone lace your boots inboard-to-outboard, do it.

The amount of times I've heard cadets in other units be told to adjust their uniform and hear some form of snide remark back. Until you're in the position of authority to decide what the SOP is, shut up and just do it.

[Storm Chaser]

May authorize is not the same as can mandate. The standard way of wearing the ABU is with sleeves down. I stopped rolling my sleeves up years ago. And unless I was part of a formation or taking a group picture were uniformity was crucial, I would not roll them up. As a commander, I'm not a fan of making optional things mandatory. We have enough of that in CAP.

OK, I see your point. I *can* say "you may roll your sleeves up", but if Cadet Timmy is always cold and prefers his down, well, then...

I think pretty much everybody takes "may authorize" to mean, basically, "The commander can say 'OK, everybody, sleeves up'."  I know thats probably not the way its interpreted in the Air Force based on what you're saying.

OTOH, I was in the Army, and when you were told "sleeves up" it was a mandate, not an invitation for choice

I think that goes to the "obey my officers" point. Stop arguing just because you're uncomfortable and do what you're told. It's not an unjust order. If CC says roll sleeves, roll them. If he/she says everyone lace your boots inboard-to-outboard, do it.

The amount of times I've heard cadets in other units be told to adjust their uniform and hear some form of snide remark back. Until you're in the position of authority to decide what the SOP is, shut up and just do it.

In 20 years of military service, a commander has never ordered me to roll up my sleeves, yet CAP commanders somehow know better about these things. Again, there may be circumstances that require it, but I can't think of many.

As a CAP commander, I have better things to do than to tell my members how to lace their boots or roll their sleeves. We don't have to get to that level of detail when prescribing a UOD, yet I see it all the time. From requiring that everyone rolls up their sleeves, to mandating ribbons on the USAF-style short sleeve service uniform, we want to make optional things mandatory. And most of the time, it's based on someone's opinion about what's proper or needed.

[DakRadz]

~sidebar~
Fort Gordon, GA, 2010

Home of the Signal Corps.

Our encampment was told until they received permission from the base commander (or designee for this type of issue, whomever that is), we could not roll our sleeves because the Army had purchased uniforms specifically designed for airflow- the ACUs. We were to follow the base/service/regulation rule of no rolled sleeves.



In the end (of day 1 or 2), someone actually looked up their old BDU regulation and found that BDUs can be rolled, so they would allow it.

~sidebar~

I would imagine that the same airflow argument would work with ABUs, but I don't know for sure. I know I prefer ACUs sleeves down- I've worn ACUs when my buddys drill sergeant dad snuck (sort of) us two teenagers into his training platoon at Benning so we could do the confidence course (and yes, I realize that sounds made-up, but boy was it fun), and now wear jet black ACUs for my EMS job everyday (company policy...........) The airflow does actually work, at least for me, if I let the wrist velcro all the way out. If I'm in the ambulance I tend to take the top off and go T-shirt.
The EMS job isn't comparable to the military, but the amount of time I spend in vehicles, outdoors, office environments, and standing around in the sun waiting on someone to do something is VERY comparable to Civil Air Patrol.





REGARDLESS: Do what the commander says, and if you're a commander- plenty of others have chimed in on that note.

[Garibaldi]

Personally, I don't like the way they look sleeves-up. It's not like the BDU, though they are kinda made to roll up. Just my opinion, but they don't look....right.

[grunt82abn]

It's my constitutional right to bare arms!

Suns out, Guns out

[UWONGO2]

The one week a year I wear BDUs also happens to be the one week a year where I have some influence over the environment. My rule has always been that seniors do what they feel works best for them and the cadet leadership decides for themselves (I've yet had to have a cadet follow my lead on leaving it to personal choice. Oh well.).

And yes, I've a senior or two give me some grief for not forcing "conformity" amongst the seniors. Never to my face though.

[Damron]

I did see one conflict in the latest (July) update.   The rocket patch appears in the ABU graphic but is excluded in the text, as it is in 8-4.   I am guessing they retained the graphic without noticing the conflict.

[Holding Pattern]

I did see one conflict in the latest (July) update.   The rocket patch appears in the ABU graphic but is excluded in the text, as it is in 8-4.   I am guessing they retained the graphic without noticing the conflict.

I am highly confident we will see another update within the next 30 days. Hence why I'm putting on tapes and insignia only.

[Eclipse]

I did see one conflict in the latest (July) update.   The rocket patch appears in the ABU graphic but is excluded in the text, as it is in 8-4.   I am guessing they retained the graphic without noticing the conflict.

I am highly confident we will see another update within the next 30 days. Hence why I'm putting on tapes and insignia only.

One could certainly conjecture that these rushed ICLs are based on affected upcoming activities.

No berets, printed shirts or customs hats... ... ... AIRVENTURE!!!!  NESA!!!!

Authorized.

[N6RVT]

I did see one conflict in the latest (July) update.   The rocket patch appears in the ABU graphic but is excluded in the text, as it is in 8-4.   I am guessing they retained the graphic without noticing the conflict.

I am highly confident we will see another update within the next 30 days. Hence why I'm putting on tapes and insignia only.

One could certainly conjecture that these rushed ICLs are based on affected upcoming activities.

No berets, printed shirts or customs hats... ... ... AIRVENTURE!!!!  NESA!!!!

Authorized.

Authorized or not, putting any bright colored patches on the uniform destroys the effect the new color insignia gives you, so Im leaving it off anyway.

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[MSG Mac]

Again. This was a perfect opportunity to inject some uniformity and proper definitions. What is a conservative color? What is acceptable to put on the caps? Embroidered or printed?

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Maryland Wing uses black caps with the unit embroidered on the front. Units place an order thru the Wing Administrator. Cost s about $6/Cap.

[Eclipse]

Saw a cadet wearing the SARDOG just now in a video piece, same feature had another with the !@#$ luggage tag
as the branch tape.

Not going to narc them out here, but look around at your people and SAY SOMETHING.