Woodland Boonie Approved for Wear?

[Eclipse]

Folks..........
Did I miss something???  Who is the bozo allowing hats, caps, scarves, and other prohibited items out on a flight line???  I don't care who, but someone who wears a cap, hat, or similar is violating every safety rule and prohibition for conduct on the flight line.  I do not care what the CAP rules, regulations, nor tradition that would say caps on the line, we deal with active units almost everyday and the basic rule is cap and hats off on the flightline.  Sorry for my approach, but I have been at the aftermath of someone taking on a prop under power.

I've been involved in more than one stale-mated conversation between safety officers who are arguing sun exposure vs. FOD issues.

Sun screen and a shaded area to hide between aircraft would seem to be the answer, but, you know, that's a logical compromise...

[Always Ready]

^ an FLM manual does not trump 39-1, it could potentially tighten a reg, but can't authorize a unifrom piece not authorized already in the uniform manual.

True. I meant it more in the context that you can wear headgear on the flightline (i.e. BDU cover with some sort of retention device that won't easilyget pulled off). As a FLS (Flight Line Supervisor), I would only allow this in the worst situations, like when there is no shade area for people to get out of the heat. Sunscreen, plenty of water, and breaks are effective substitutes for a cover in most cases. Just my 2 cents

Folks..........
Did I miss something???  Who is the bozo allowing hats, caps, scarves, and other prohibited items out on a flight line???  I don't care who, but someone who wears a cap, hat, or similar is violating every safety rule and prohibition for conduct on the flight line.  I do not care what the CAP rules, regulations, nor tradition that would say caps on the line, we deal with active units almost everyday and the basic rule is cap and hats off on the flightline.  Sorry for my approach, but I have been at the aftermath of someone taking on a prop under power.

At some general aviation airports, it is a common sight and at others it is not. I've also been on a few military flightlines where the situation warranted hats, scarves, etc. NAS Keflavik, Iceland was one of them. Snow, wind, rain, and you name it at, anytime of the year made it a safety issue not to have something covering your extremities to reduce exposure. They just made sure it was secure from not blowing away with 60 mph gusts. YMMV

Not to get off topic, if you and I quote: "I do not care what the CAP rules, regulations,..." you are sending the wrong message to everyone. I really hope this was just misworded. If you are at a CAP activity, following CAP regulations is mandatory.

[Cherokeepilot]

Safety first above all.............
The restriction on the caps and hats is USAF.  Wear of alternative head covering is allowable under certain circumstances. 

The real question of caps and hats boils down to place and circumstances.  If someone has a cap which blows into my turbine powered superduper engine, my insurance will never stop with the lawyers........and CAP is not gonna cover it.  The socalled regs are not immunity.

Besides the CAP regs are not federal regs nor DOD regs, only by laws which we agree to abide and tolerate.
73s

[Always Ready]

Safety first above all.............
The restriction on the caps and hats is USAF.  Wear of alternative head covering is allowable under certain circumstances. 

The real question of caps and hats boils down to place and circumstances.  If someone has a cap which blows into my turbine powered superduper engine, my insurance will never stop with the lawyers........and CAP is not gonna cover it.  The socalled regs are not immunity.

Besides the CAP regs are not federal regs nor DOD regs, only by laws which we agree to abide and tolerate.
73s

I agree safety is first.

Most of NAS Keflavik's air ops was AF. 85th Group...fighters, helos, tanker, etc. etc. They wore hats, scarves, etc. on the flightline along with Navy, Marine Corps and the occasional Army personnel. Those items were secured so they couldn't blow away. The no hats on the flightline is NOT a hard and fast, no exceptions rule. Otherwise when the President lands at Andrews AFB on AF1 he would not be greeted by an AF officer wearing the bus driver cap. Also, what about helmets? They are carried in hand by AF pilots all the time. What if they dropped it and it got sucked into an engine??? I understand where you are coming from, but there are exception to that rule.

Since "CAP regs are not federal regs nor DOD regs," I can start wearing ABUs to CAP meetings right? Nope. CAP regs are to be followed in CAP, just like AF regs are to be followed in the AF. While we are the USAF Auxiliary, we are not in the AF. We have our own regs to follow.

[lordmonar]

^ an FLM manual does not trump 39-1, it could potentially tighten a reg, but can't authorize a unifrom piece not authorized already in the uniform manual.

Field gear.

[davidsinn]

^ an FLM manual does not trump 39-1, it could potentially tighten a reg, but can't authorize a unifrom piece not authorized already in the uniform manual.

Field gear.

Headgear is a uniform item not field gear. As to the no hats, no exception rule, on my flight line I do allow stocking caps when it's cold. Other than that my first experience was 120 degrees in 90% humidity with a hot sun and no hats. We survived. If you can't hack it perhaps you should find something else to do that it's so stressful.

[wuzafuzz]

Wow, you'd think we are arguing politics or religion.  The intolerance for other peoples opinions and experiences is somewhat disheartening.  You'd think we could agree to disagree without calling BS, bozo, or suggesting people are wimps if they feel the need for boonie hats for sun protection.

The current fact is that blue boonie hats are approved for the BBDU.  Some people like that fact, others don't.  Our individual opinions neither validate or change the established regulation. Flightlines have their rules too, which also need to be followed.

Incidentally, I used to work in airport operations (GA airport).  Hats were everywhere on the flightline.  People were smart enough not to wear them around jet intakes.  In 6 years there were no reported problems.  I've heard tales of people chasing lost caps into props, perhaps that's why we have a rule.

[lordmonar]

^ an FLM manual does not trump 39-1, it could potentially tighten a reg, but can't authorize a unifrom piece not authorized already in the uniform manual.

Field gear.

Headgear is a uniform item not field gear. As to the no hats, no exception rule, on my flight line I do allow stocking caps when it's cold. Other than that my first experience was 120 degrees in 90% humidity with a hot sun and no hats. We survived. If you can't hack it perhaps you should find something else to do that it's so stressful.

I am not addressing that issue at all.  The argument was that the SQTR Task Guides don't trump 39-1....but once you enter the "field gear" areana 39-1 goes out the door.  And not just in CAP.

Now we can argue all day long about the safety benifit vs hazards of hats on a flight line all day long.  But that is not really the issue.  If you the FLM or the Safety guy you make the call for your flight line....got not problem with that.

But the base reality is.....We trum 39-1 all day long when we go to the field....as we should...we should be using equipment, procedures and clothing that keeps us safe and gets the mission done.  Looking unfiromed and professional is a plus but secondary to those two primary principles.

Having said that.....I don't let my GTs or FLM crews wear boonies....But I am in the process to push for our GTs to wear white hard hats while in the field...not authorised by 39-1 but for our application gets the mission done and helps keep my teams safer.

[jimmydeanno]

But I am in the process to push for our GTs to wear white hard hats while in the field...not authorised by 39-1 but for our application gets the mission done and helps keep my teams safer.

Just throw an Emergency Services Decal on the front and voila, you have a "white helmet liner" which is authorized by 39-1 for use by emergency services personnel. (Table 6-4 line 9)

[wuzafuzz]

^ an FLM manual does not trump 39-1, it could potentially tighten a reg, but can't authorize a unifrom piece not authorized already in the uniform manual.

Field gear.

Headgear is a uniform item not field gear. As to the no hats, no exception rule, on my flight line I do allow stocking caps when it's cold. Other than that my first experience was 120 degrees in 90% humidity with a hot sun and no hats. We survived. If you can't hack it perhaps you should find something else to do that it's so stressful.

I am not addressing that issue at all.  The argument was that the SQTR Task Guides don't trump 39-1....but once you enter the "field gear" areana 39-1 goes out the door.  And not just in CAP.

Now we can argue all day long about the safety benifit vs hazards of hats on a flight line all day long.  But that is not really the issue.  If you the FLM or the Safety guy you make the call for your flight line....got not problem with that.

But the base reality is.....We trum 39-1 all day long when we go to the field....as we should...we should be using equipment, procedures and clothing that keeps us safe and gets the mission done.  Looking unfiromed and professional is a plus but secondary to those two primary principles.

Having said that.....I don't let my GTs or FLM crews wear boonies....But I am in the process to push for our GTs to wear white hard hats while in the field...not authorised by 39-1 but for our application gets the mission done and helps keep my teams safer.

You don't "let" your GT's wear boonies?  GT as in ground team?  So if someone shows up with a blue boonie, which is authorized, what do you tell them?  What's your justification?

[LtCol Hooligan]

Having said that.....I don't let my GTs or FLM crews wear boonies....But I am in the process to push for our GTs to wear white hard hats while in the field...not authorised by 39-1 but for our application gets the mission done and helps keep my teams safer.

Why?  How does this keep the team safer?  Will they hit their head on a tree?

[Eclipse]

You don't "let" your GT's wear boonies?  GT as in ground team?  So if someone shows up with a blue boonie, which is authorized, what do you tell them?  What's your justification?

All approved uniform items are worn at the discretion of the unit or activity commander.  Boonies are only approved for field use, so if a member shows up wearing one to a unit meeting, it gets stowed.

In the field, if the CC decides its an inappropriate piece of headgear, for whatever reason, its gets stowed.  Since no headgear is required (only suggested) for the BBDU, you can't fall back on that.

For cadets and seniors the minimum required uniform is the basic service uniform - SS blues for cadets, and aviator whites for seniors (which, BTW are required for seniors, read 39-1 before you respond).

While we can't mandate cadets wear anything other than the free BSU, unless those items are provided to them, we can certainly preclude the wear of anything inappropriate, just as we can dictate the manner in which anything they do wear is worn and configured.

As to seniors, though the regs say that commanders should be sensitive to the issue, commanders are free to dictate the UOD as they see fit. (and yes, members are free to vote with their feet if they don't like it).

[wuzafuzz]

You don't "let" your GT's wear boonies?  GT as in ground team?  So if someone shows up with a blue boonie, which is authorized, what do you tell them?  What's your justification?

All approved uniform items are worn at the discretion of the unit or activity commander.  Boonies are only approved for field use, so if a member shows up wearing one to a unit meeting, it gets stowed.

In the field, if the CC decides its an inappropriate piece of headgear, for whatever reason, its gets stowed.  Since no headgear is required (only suggested) for the BBDU, you can't fall back on that.

For cadets and seniors the minimum required uniform is the basic service uniform - SS blues for cadets, and aviator whites for seniors (which, BTW are required for seniors, read 39-1 before you respond).

While we can't mandate cadets wear anything other than the free BSU, unless those items are provided to them, we can certainly preclude the wear of anything inappropriate, just as we can dictate the manner in which anything they do wear is worn and configured.

As to seniors, though the regs say that commanders should be sensitive to the issue, commanders are free to dictate the UOD as they see fit. (and yes, members are free to vote with their feet if they don't like it).

OK, I'll bite.  Where in 39-1 do you find the requirement for senior members to have aviator whites?  I looked before responding and the references I find (4-1 and 4-2a) say that senior member MAY wear the aviator whites.  The only language referring to requirements states what rules we must comply with IF we wear them.  Also, section 1-5 references the requirement for cadets to posses the Minimum Basic Service Uniform, but does not list senior members.

The assertion that the unit of activity commander has discretion over all items worn seems like a bit of a stretch.  Section 1-2 describes Command Responsibility with regard to uniforms.  Nothing there mentions the right or duty to invent their own rules.  Commanders are expected to ensure uniformed members present a professional, well-groomed appearance, that reflects credit upon CAP.  Absent a real safety concern, outlawing items specifically authorized by 39-1 would seem to violate the spirit of the regulations.

It's possible I missed something somewhere.  If so, this will be a learning experience.

[lordmonar]

You don't "let" your GT's wear boonies?  GT as in ground team?  So if someone shows up with a blue boonie, which is authorized, what do you tell them?  What's your justification?

Opps...no I meant I don't let them wear woodland boonie hats.

[lordmonar]

But I am in the process to push for our GTs to wear white hard hats while in the field...not authorised by 39-1 but for our application gets the mission done and helps keep my teams safer.

Just throw an Emergency Services Decal on the front and voila, you have a "white helmet liner" which is authorized by 39-1 for use by emergency services personnel. (Table 6-4 line 9)

Hard hats are NOT helmet liner....per the reg fundamentalists....."if it is not approved for wear you can't wear it" crowd.

[wuzafuzz]

You don't "let" your GT's wear boonies?  GT as in ground team?  So if someone shows up with a blue boonie, which is authorized, what do you tell them?  What's your justification?

Opps...no I meant I don't let them wear woodland boonie hats.

Clears that up!  Thanks for the clarification.   I'm with ya there.  It's against the rules.  That's that.  :-)

[lordmonar]

Why?  How does this keep the team safer?  Will they hit their head on a tree?

Here in Southern Nevada trees are not nearly as dangerous as falling rocks.

It also serves the purpose of quickly identifying the ground teams as ground teams, improves their visibility (I would really like to get hunter orange helmets but I don't think I can stretch the reg that far).

[_]

But I am in the process to push for our GTs to wear white hard hats while in the field...not authorised by 39-1 but for our application gets the mission done and helps keep my teams safer.

Just throw an Emergency Services Decal on the front and voila, you have a "white helmet liner" which is authorized by 39-1 for use by emergency services personnel. (Table 6-4 line 9)

Hard hats are NOT helmet liner....per the reg fundamentalists....."if it is not approved for wear you can't wear it" crowd.

From the task guide: "The BDU cap may be replaced by a hard hat or bright colored cap based on mission needs."

[capchiro]

Wuzafuzz, I think your answer is in 39-1, 1-5, it pretty well notes that all members will have a basic uniform and that it is their own responsibility to so have..

[lordmonar]

But I am in the process to push for our GTs to wear white hard hats while in the field...not authorised by 39-1 but for our application gets the mission done and helps keep my teams safer.

Just throw an Emergency Services Decal on the front and voila, you have a "white helmet liner" which is authorized by 39-1 for use by emergency services personnel. (Table 6-4 line 9)

Hard hats are NOT helmet liner....per the reg fundamentalists....."if it is not approved for wear you can't wear it" crowd.

From the task guide: "The BDU cap may be replaced by a hard hat or bright colored cap based on mission needs."

That goes back to the original post by Eclipse...the task guide does not trump 39-1 as per the regs fundamentalists.  Even other regulations don't trump 39-1 according to them.