"Going Grey at 65:" A Modest Proposal for SM Uniforms

Started by ddelaney103, January 31, 2007, 05:46:32 PM

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Pace

I checked before I replied before.  Theirs is blue, just like ours.  I still don't see the point in the distinction for officers without an enlisted corps, and the more I read and observe, the more convinced I am that we'll never get any closer to the Air Force than we are now.  National leadership is working too hard to make us as independent as we can be and competitive under our corporate umbrella.  Change in aircraft paint scheme and new MAJCOM patch just reflect this changing mentality from the high brass.

That aside, I'm only insisting on removal if the only alternative is changing to a different color, especially grey.  And for the love of...  TAKE  THE SAFETY BELT OFF THE TPU JACKET SLEEVES!!!  It's fugly as sin!
Lt Col, CAP

mikeylikey

Personaly I allways thought the sleeve braid should be black.  The Air Force should have also kept the black stripe down the pant legs as well.  It was an attempt to make the AF uniform look m ore business in the 50's.  They lost the uniform heritage and now it seems they are trying to get some of it back with those prototype service coats.  I would like to see a return to the props (Army Air Force branch insignia) underneath the " US" on the jackets.

Other than what was mentioned above, leave the service jacket and the braid alone.  It is a part of our heritage.   
What's up monkeys?

JohnKachenmeister

The trouser stripe seems rather silly on an Air Force uniform.  The Army wears them out of a sense of tradition.  They originally were so that dismounted troops could spot the officers and NCO's when they were on horseback.

The little wing and prop were the Air Corps "Branch brass."  What would be the point of branch brass when everyone is in the same branch?  The Army still uses branch brass.  Mine was crossed Harper's Ferry .50 caliber pistols, the first handgun made for the US Army with interchangeable parts, symbolizing the teamwork of the Military Police.  The right-hand pistol overlays the left-hand pistol to symbolize the triumph of justice over evil.

The Army still uses the wing-and prop for the Aviation branch, but the design of the wings matches the Army aircrew wings.
Another former CAP officer

LtCol White

As far as never getting closer to USAF than we are now, Dan, I disagree. The current leadership is making the move to be more independent. All it takes is change of command to go back the other way.

We DO have an enlisted corps. Although I've never seen one, we have the CAP NCO corps that wears enlisted USAF chevrons. Having the blue braid on the sleeves for officers should stay. Its in keeping with USAF tradition.

The more people try and change the uniforms to be more distinct and Non-USAF, the FARTHER we get from USAF. LEAVE IT ALONE and work towards going back to the old standards prior to grey/maroon eps. Going back has nothing to do with being a pretender to USAF.  Its about the heritage and regaining a more professional look to our uniforms. The less ridiculous they look the more the image improves IF the uniform is worn properly. POLICING the membership is the key. Not changing the uniforms to be less USAF.

For those of you who complain about the costs involved with uniforms and changes, WHY would you propose changing the mess dress from something that be be purchased off the shelf from AAFES  to something that has to be made specially for us with grey lapels and pants stripes?? Besides, THAT would look like total crap.

Before you start talking about making changes to uniforms, you need to make sure you understand the traditions behind them and what the components are. Then think before you speak. Its things like this that make USAF think "these guys don't have a clue"
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

ddelaney103

Suggested New Rules of Engagement:

Comments about my postings should be addressed to "ddelaney103" and comments for Daniel Pace should probably be addressed to "dcpacemaker."

There are a few on this list who actually know my "drinking buddy level" name (Dan), such as NIN and Dragoon.  While I don't have any problems with them using it, I don't use first names unless I've gotten some sort of permission and expect the same in return.

More importantly, I suspect we have already gotten confusion between my postings and dcpacemaker's (Daniel's) postings.  I don't want him to have to take on the ad hom attacks directed at me and vice versa.

LtCol White

If u made a comment and then read a post and see it addressed, you will know the comment was directed to you rather than someone else. Common sense.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

Pace

Quote from: LtCol White on February 01, 2007, 03:04:03 PM
As far as never getting closer to USAF than we are now, Dan, I disagree. The current leadership is making the move to be more independent. All it takes is change of command to go back the other way.
Yeah, and as soon as we get back closer to the Air Force all the work to separate us from the PCA will have been undone, and all of the missions that had become (or will become) available to us on the HLS front just ended.  No intelligent commander is going to remove missions from CAP's list of capabilities unless the current set of circumstances changes (the Attorney General exempts us from the PCA under certain limitations, other new missions/capabilities arise that will more than fill the HLS mission gap, etc.).

QuoteWe DO have an enlisted corps. Although I've never seen one, we have the CAP NCO corps that wears enlisted USAF chevrons. Having the blue braid on the sleeves for officers should stay. Its in keeping with USAF tradition.
No, we don't.  We have a marginally small percentage of senior members who are current or former military NCOs who choose to keep that grade.  That's not an NCO "corps" since the vast majority of the members who are doing the vast majority of the work are officers.

QuotePOLICING the membership is the key. Not changing the uniforms to be less USAF.
Let he who is without uniform infractions/alterations cast the first stone.

Back on topic...
Lt Col, CAP

ddelaney103

Quote from: LtCol White on February 01, 2007, 04:19:12 PM
If u made a comment and then read a post and see it addressed, you will know the comment was directed to you rather than someone else. Common sense.

Common sense is nice, though it should never be assumed.

Common courtesy, however, is not only the oil that eases the machinery of debate, but part and parcel of the culture of the profession of arms.

aveighter

Pretty strident eruption there Daniel.  I re-read Lt Col Whites post and didn't find anything there to indicate a move closer to the USAF was analogous to gutting PCA  understandings or legislation.

Also, Daniel, I was a little unclear regarding your assertion that proper uniform appearance discipline should only be (casting stones) encouraged by, and here is where it gets a little murky,

A: Those without current infractions/alterations
B: Those who have never had an infraction/alteration
C: Those observed to have walked on water and quelled the mighty tempest
D: There is no one so all bets are off, if it feels good do it (very 60s)

Thanks.

Oh and Dan, I think that by ad hom you are referring to ad hominem?  I think that means attacks on you personally rather than the merits (or lack thereof) of your position.  I didn't notice any posts in the thread that seemed to indicate such but I'll try to pay closer attention.

Care for a drink?

ddelaney103

Quote from: LtCol White on February 01, 2007, 03:04:03 PM
As far as never getting closer to USAF than we are now, Dan, I disagree. The current leadership is making the move to be more independent. All it takes is change of command to go back the other way.

We DO have an enlisted corps. Although I've never seen one, we have the CAP NCO corps that wears enlisted USAF chevrons. Having the blue braid on the sleeves for officers should stay. Its in keeping with USAF tradition.

Current AF officer jackets have shoulder straps, not to mention the bright metal things on them.  I don't think anyone is going to confuse the two.  Blue braid on a blue sleeve is not worth the added expense for us, esp. if you buy off the rack at MCSS, where you get two pieces of braid to put on the jacket when you buy it.

QuoteThe more people try and change the uniforms to be more distinct and Non-USAF, the FARTHER we get from USAF. LEAVE IT ALONE and work towards going back to the old standards prior to grey/maroon eps. Going back has nothing to do with being a pretender to USAF.  Its about the heritage and regaining a more professional look to our uniforms. The less ridiculous they look the more the image improves IF the uniform is worn properly. POLICING the membership is the key. Not changing the uniforms to be less USAF.

What do you mean by "policing?"  Getting folks into height/weight and out of the TPU/blazer?  I don't see that happening anytime soon ever.  There is a need for the TPU to enable the "big cheeses" to interact with other orgs while wearing a military uniform.  However, it would help if our suit looked more like the AF suit, both from a appearance standpoint and from an interchangeability of parts standpoint.

The grey epaulets are what the AF gave us and I don't see them going away anytime soon.  The TPU, however, can be changed a lot easier, as seen by the changes to collar brass and grade on the headgear.  Adopting the grey shoulderstraps on the TPU provides more uniformity with AF Service Dress.  Moreover, it could be seen by the AF as an attempt to "come back on the reservation" as far as the aggravation  over our TPU end-run is concerned.

QuoteFor those of you who complain about the costs involved with uniforms and changes, WHY would you propose changing the mess dress from something that be be purchased off the shelf from AAFES  to something that has to be made specially for us with grey lapels and pants stripes?? Besides, THAT would look like total crap.

Reread my post.  I was talking about changes to the AF Mess Dress, not just the CAP Mess Dress.  When I first put on AF Mess Dress there were only a couple of stripes and a couple of medals standing between being an Airman and being a waiter.  Now, I have a lot more stripes, a bunch more medals and a couple of pieces of "skill bling."  However, when I go to joint events and stand next to Soldiers, Sailors and Marines, I still look like I'm in the 1st Amish Regiment. 

QuoteBefore you start talking about making changes to uniforms, you need to make sure you understand the traditions behind them and what the components are. Then think before you speak. Its things like this that make USAF think "these guys don't have a clue"

Traditions are sometimes made to be broken.  Since I've been in CAP we lost our best uniform (the dark blue "khaki's") and had to deal with some odd ideas (guayabera shirts, anyone?).  In the AF it was the same thing - I wore my four pocket Service until the very last day and cursed "da man" for making me give up the SNCO epaulets on my blue service shirt.  Neither time did I decide to go free agent and join the RAAF.  You do the job and work with what you have, not what you wished to have.

Argumentum ad hominem noted - no further action.

ddelaney103

Quote from: aveighter on February 01, 2007, 05:37:29 PM
Oh and Dan, I think that by ad hom you are referring to ad hominem?  I think that means attacks on you personally rather than the merits (or lack thereof) of your position.  I didn't notice any posts in the thread that seemed to indicate such but I'll try to pay closer attention.

Some highlights:

QuoteBefore you start talking about making changes to uniforms, you need to make sure you understand the traditions behind them and what the components are. Then think before you speak. Its things like this that make USAF think "these guys don't have a clue"

and

QuoteIf u made a comment and then read a post and see it addressed, you will know the comment was directed to you rather than someone else. Common sense.

Now, these seem to be comments directed against the commentator, not the commentary.  The use of "you" (or its leet speak cousin, "u"), instead of "your idea" or "that idea," indicates the criticism is directed against the person.  To quote Daffy Duck:

QuoteAha! Pronoun trouble!

I'd go on, but my throat is kinda parched...

LtCol White

YOU is used in a a general sense. Not denoting a specific person. If a PERSON makes a comment and then sees a reply adressing that comment, then the PERSON will know it was directed to THEIR comment.

CLEARER?
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

aveighter

Jeez Dan, thats what constitutes a personal attack in your world? 

Sorry, I just don't see it.  Have another drink.

carnold1836

Is it possible for every one to back off for a bit and get their trousers out of a knot, grey or otherwise.

This is supposed to be a discussion on the merits of a change in the color scheme of the corporate uniform, not a pissing match about who is attacking whom.

SHEESH LIGHTEN UP FRANCIS.

BTW if there is anybody here named Francis, that isn't a personal attack. :P
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

Pace

#34
Quote from: aveighter on February 01, 2007, 05:37:29 PM
Pretty strident eruption there Daniel.  I re-read Lt Col Whites post and didn't find anything there to indicate a move closer to the USAF was analogous to gutting PCA  understandings or legislation.
Except that if you look at the reasons for being more independent of the Air Force (at least the ones that benefit the organization and not a single person), you'll find PCA right in the middle of it.  It is at the very heart of the issue of closer to/more independent of the Air Force, whether stated or not.

QuoteAlso, Daniel, I was a little unclear regarding your assertion that proper uniform appearance discipline should only be (casting stones) encouraged by, and here is where it gets a little murky,
My post was version 2.0.  The first was censored by a man more tempered and wiser than I.  My comment was only supposed to make sense to one person.  Considering a lack of a response, I think the message was heard and understood.  Moving on...

QuoteCare for a drink?
Are you buying?
Lt Col, CAP


ColonelJack

Running the risk of having someone tell me I didn't read a post correctly, I must add ...

I find it odd that people say the Corporate Service Coat should look "more like the AF service coat."  How much more like it can it look?  The only -- only -- differences are shade of blue (and if you can really tell the difference you're better than I am) ... silver sleeve braid ... and the double-breasted front.  Other than that, it is the AF service coat!

If, however, the point is that the Corp coat should have gray epaulets instead of pin-on rank, then I would say it shouldn't -- it's designed to be a different uniform, looking similar to the AF but with just enough in the way of differences to not be confused for same.

Or am I off on my own tangent here?

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

lordmonar

I'll chime here...

I agree in principle with what Dan is suggesting.

The TPU, white and grays and USAF style uniforms need to be as close to each other as possible.

Here is why.

Imagine your standard mission base at a multi-agency operation.

There is the fire department, the sheriffs department, the National Guard, Forrest Service and CAP.

In my experience all those agencies try to make their uniforms....well uniform.

But CAP.....You got BDUs, BBDUs, OD Flight Suits, Blue Flight Suits, USAF blues with gray rank and name tag, gray and whites with gray rank and name tag, blue and whites with blue name tag and blue rank and the ever favorite polo shirts and gray pants and maybe even a couple of blazer combos.

How many organizations are we?

TPU's or gray and whites?  I don't really care one way or the other....but stand the two of them next to each other and try to explain that "yes they are from the same organization".  And people wonder why we don't have any professional respect.

For my money....if I were god....I would do the same as the CGAUX and be done with it....but since the USAF won't budge on the weight and height standards we can't do that.

I would suggest that we just dump the USAF uniforms for SM's all together.  Go with the TPU (as being closest to the USAF uniform) BBDU and Blue Flight suit.

Ditch the ultramarine and go with a darker blue for the rank and name tapes.

So now at your mission base you will see only three uniform (maybe 4 if you keep the polo shirt) one for ground teams, one for air crew and one for the PAO/IC/AL and other desk worker/public interface types.

As far as understanding the traditions behind the USAF and their uniforms.....as an AD USAF MSGT I say screw them!  They are not important and no one in the USAF knows them or very much cares about them (not really).  In my 20 years we have gone through 3 different types of field uniforms (5 if you count jungle BDU and the cotton fatigues). We have changed the service coat twice (not counting epaulets on then off again and the navy style rank).

It was not all that long ago when they still wore the pink and tans and about 700 different combinations of the fatigues. (a note for the history buffs) The USAF wore ultra-marine name and full color ranks and squadron patches up until the early 80's...so those who think it looks like a donkey now only have the USAF to blame!)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Major_Chuck

I like grey.  Looks distinguished.  Oh wait, we are talking about uniforms...:)

Actually I really do like the color grey and think a grey beret with a blue flash (similiar to army) and the CAP crest from the flight cap on it would look very professional as an "Optional" non field uniform item.

Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

JohnKachenmeister

Another former CAP officer