Your Shipment of Vanguard Fail has been delayed...

[Pylon]

I ordered uniform stuff for the NER conference a month ago.  The conference ended today.  I'm still waiting for my order!

Good lord.  Did you order anything out of the ordinary, like custom embroidered or engraved items?  Or was this just standard insignia?  A month is beyond bad logistics, unless some of your items were out of stock and needed another batch to be made or something.   


Did Vanguard give you any clue as to what's holding up the order?

[Major Carrales]

I ordered uniform stuff for the NER conference a month ago.  The conference ended today.  I'm still waiting for my order!

Good lord.  Did you order anything out of the ordinary, like custom embroidered or engraved items?  Or was this just standard insignia?  A month is beyond bad logistics, unless some of your items were out of stock and needed another batch to be made or something.   


Did Vanguard give you any clue as to what's holding up the order?

Pylon, these are the sorts of stories that are becoming far more common.  You are in marketing...surely this sort of poor relations can't be part of their plan.  Could it stem from the fact that there is no competition.  Captive audiences needn't have a dollar spent on any marketing nor an ounce of thought on customer service...being that they are captive.

This is why I am advocating so strongly for some sort of response from the membership. 

We are not asking for much...not so much as a lowering of prices nor anything like that or quality control complaints.  All that is REQUIRED is they work with us in a timely fashion.  I am, however, asking for better than usual service since we are a captive consumer group.

[Ned]

You are one of many who has claimed to have done this, yet the problems persist.

In any case, since when is appealing to a commissar the standard operating procedure for this sort of thing.  I think the existence of said letters sends a concrete message to leadership.  Additionally, said letters will stop when the poor service stops and the excellence begins.

You're not seriously suggesting that complaining directly to the person who has the responsibility for ensuring excellence is the wrong solution, are you?

You and I are both public servants, and as such I'm not sure that others will ever see us as experts on "good public service."  But I used to work in restaurants.  And when I was waiting tables, I knew I had to give good service, if for no other reason than trying to maximise my tips.

If one of my guests was having a bad visit, I would certainly want them to bring it up to me so I could correct the problem immediately as opposed to simply complaining to the manager on the way out when it was too late for me to fix anything.

In a CAP context, would you really want parents taking their complaint straight to the wing commander before giving you a chance to address the issue?

I'm not suggesting that writing to NHQ and sharing with them your preceptions of VG service is in any way inappropriate.  Indeed, our leaders need the feedback.

But I would hope that anyone would first take it up with Mr. Bostwick and his team.  You can then include the results, if any, in your letter.

Ned Lee

("commissar"?  Nice.  That's exactly the kind of thing that will make him want to go the extra mile for us.  I'm sure you don't mind if your students use that term to describe your work.)

[Major Carrales]

You are one of many who has claimed to have done this, yet the problems persist.

In any case, since when is appealing to a commissar the standard operating procedure for this sort of thing.  I think the existence of said letters sends a concrete message to leadership.  Additionally, said letters will stop when the poor service stops and the excellence begins.

You're not seriously suggesting that complaining directly to the person who has the responsibility for ensuring excellence is the wrong solution, are you?

You and I are both public servants, and as such I'm not sure that others will ever see us as experts on "good public service."  But I used to work in restaurants.  And when I was waiting tables, I knew I had to give good service, if for no other reason than trying to maximise my tips.

If one of my guests was having a bad visit, I would certainly want them to bring it up to me so I could correct the problem immediately as opposed to simply complaining to the manager on the way out when it was too late for me to fix anything.

In a CAP context, would you really want parents taking their complaint straight to the wing commander before giving you a chance to address the issue?

I'm not suggesting that writing to NHQ and sharing with them your preceptions of VG service is in any way inappropriate.  Indeed, our leaders need the feedback.

But I would hope that anyone would first take it up with Mr. Bostwick and his team.  You can then include the results, if any, in your letter.

Ned Lee

("commissar"?  Nice.  That's exactly the kind of thing that will make him want to go the extra mile for us.  I'm sure you don't mind if your students use that term to describe your work.)

Ned, I know you are the resident "line tower" however, really?!? 

My suggestion is that the complaints issued to Mr. Bostwick have done little to stave off the continued issues with Vanguard.  When such an esteemed and long time member such as Pylon points out an issue with his order and then described what he was given as a response from these people.  Then others join in with similar stories...I am besides myself.  Add that to the fact that the HOCK shop was kibosh-ed, I have to play the "righteous indignation" card.

If the HOCK has to die, then Vanguard has to go beyond the extra mile.  People forget that exclusive rights to CAP and its membership works both ways.  I would go as far as to suggest that Vanguard should cater toward CAP more than the armed forces exactly because of this "relationship." 

When the issue of "kickbacks" are brought in...I will point out the lack of benefit to the Southern and Western Wings who will not see the direct benefit of these "kickbacks" on a scale worth reporting.

Plainly put...what is "good for the goose is good for the gander."  If there's going to be such incredulous action against the HOCK, then there must be the same degree of severity in demanding near perfection from VANGUARD!

As for the "commissar" crack...I think "Czar" might have been more appropriate in terms with modern Executive usage. A commissar is one that seeks to control public opinion or its expression.  In my opinion, that would more describe you and I this occasion.

[Ned]

Ned, I know you are the resident "line tower" however, really?!? 

OK, Joe, we can trade "reallys" for a while, I guess, but let's take another look to see if we can identify our differences on this issue.

My suggestion is that the complaints issued to Mr. Bostwick have done little to stave off the continued issues with Vanguard. 

Why do you say that?  Not even Pylon said anything about talking to Mr. Bostwick.

Pylon certainly got bad service from VG, which VG acknowledges.

But beside from anecdotal stories here on CT, can you support your factual allegation of  "continued issues with VG?"

If I remember correctly, some people have complained here on CT about you and your posts.  Does that mean that we have "continued issues" with you?

(Of course not.)

Assuming that every single complaint posted here on CT is absolutely true (and indeed I have no reason to doubt any of them), how does that allow us to assert that there are "continuing issues" with VG?

You are a teacher; you must know that it is a bit of a leap to suggest that multiple complaints posted on an internet forum proves a ongoing customer service issue.

When such an esteemed and long time member such as Pylon points out an issue with his order and then described what he was given as a response from these people.  Then others join in with similar stories...I am besides myself. 

I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. 

Assuming for a moment that VG does not have an effective way to track which of their orders come from "esteemed and long time members," we are back to the notion that multiple complaints may well point to a problem, but they may also be an statistically insignificant event.

Add that to the fact that the HOCK shop was kibosh-ed, I have to play the "righteous indignation" card.

It appears that the HOCK's business model was unable to survive without resorting to piracy of somebody else's intellectual property.  If you want to throw a little "righteous indignation" around, you might consider a different direction.

I donate blood to the Red Cross, but I have to go down to the Community Center periodically to do so.  I'll bet a vampire would be happy to give me better "customer service" by coming to my house to collect the donation.   

Sometimes "better customer service" is not the way to define mission success.

When the issue of "kickbacks" are brought in...I will point out the lack of benefit to the Southern and Western Wings who will not see the direct benefit of these "kickback" on a scale worth reporting.

And yet, the volunteer leaders of those Southern and Western wings voted for the current arrangement.  Perhaps those leaders could see a benefit to their members that you do not.  Can you think of another explanation?


So where does that leave us?

Your position appears to be that after reading several complaints on the internet about VG's customer service that it has been somehow proven that VG has failed in their responsibilities under the licensing agreement and we should take up torches and pitchforks and meet at NHQ.

My position is that the complaints certainly raise reasonable concerns, and we should engage VG in an effort to see if there is a problem, and if so correct it.  If members experience a problem with their order, they should call VG and attempt to resolve it.  If they call Mr. Bostwick directly, they will certainly receive a correction to the problem in the shortest possible time.

I haven't gone back and counted every complaint in this and similar threads, but my WAG is that we have read a couple of dozen here.  VG processes well over 50,000 CAP orders a year.


Because of the concerns raised here, I personally met with Mr. Bostwick, passed along the concerns expressed here, and pressed him for an explanation, which I shared with you all.

[MICT1362]

Add that to the fact that the HOCK shop was kibosh-ed, I have to play the "righteous indignation" card.

It appears that the HOCK's business model was unable to survive without resorting to piracy of somebody else's intellectual property.  If you want to throw a little "righteous indignation" around, you might consider a different direction.

I may be mistaken, but wasn't THE HOCK in business well before the exclusive agreement was issued? 

So I don't think that their business model was wrong.  The problem was that short of a few at the top, nobody knew that the agreement existed or something would have been said long before it was. 

But anyway, back to the topic.  Ned, I will send an email to Mr. Bostwick with my concerns and see where that gets me.  If I don't get a response that I feels is appropriate, I will send a letter to NHQ.  I think that is fair enough.

-Paramedic

[Major Carrales]

Ned, Ned, Ned....

I think we are on the same page here, to some degree.  Only I want a specific course of action and you want a specific course of inaction.  My point remains that if Vanguard and NHQ is going to demand 100% compliance in the idea of ONE VENDOR, that they agree that they must provide 100%  customer service to all CAP people.  If one is not reasonable, then I submit then neither is the other.

Anecdotal or not, being the single vendor to all of CAP requires a higher degree of accuracy and customer service.

As for continuing issues with Vanguard, lets see if we can go six months without the sort of "issues" mentioned here.  Ideally, by the definition of "continuing issues" (matters that repeat themselves...in this case longer than reasonable waits for in stock/non-custom products, telephone "run around" and the like) if it happens once more it is continuing.  let's see if they can "put up."  I will be making an order for name tapes on behalf of cadets; I will separate the order and make the name tapes on one order and the patches and "in-stock" items on another.  Let's see what happens.

My point is not that Vanguard tracks which members are "long time and esteemed," but rather that those like Pylon that have been at it a while seem to have complaints about it.  Such a complaint is enough for me to be vocal as well.

Sometimes "better customer service" is not the way to define mission success.

We are trying to get Units outfitted in a timely and effective manner.  This latest thing with the HOCK and Vanguard is a prime example of "the cart coming before the Horse."  The idea is to get CAP missions accomplished, which requires regulation uniforms.  Because of said issues, I have resorted to making paper name tapes and patches of exacting size and shape to have to accomplish the mission.  When the HOCK existed, it was an institution where we could get things in a timely manner.  I could call in or go on line and have my materials (many times on behalf of cadets) in less than a week.  In the mail on Monday, in the mailbox on Friday.  I expect the same of Vanguard...in fact, I expect it more since they are now the only possible place to work with.

I am, however, willing to be reasonable...you relay to Mr. Bostwick these issues.  If there is improvement, I will stand down.  If not, what would you have me do?  Go contrary to my beliefs on the matter?  The only way to change my opinion on the matter is to prove to me otherwise. 

I expect nothing short of total dedication to CAP and its membership from Vanguard, by taking the action that it has is removing other suppliers they have that obligation.  I don't want to read that people are leaving early from there on Fridays, or that there are computer issues or any other cockamamie excuses.  If that is what we can expect, then bring back the other vendors.
   

[Eclipse]

We are trying to get Units outfitted in a timely and effective manner.  This latest thing with the HOCK and Vanguard is a prime example of "the cart coming before the Horse."  The idea is to get CAP missions accomplished, which requires regulation uniforms.  Because of said issues, I have resorted to making paper name tapes and patches of exacting size and shape to have to accomplish the mission.

The the Hock was not your friend, as what they sold in many cases were knock-items with incorrect colors, details, and quality of fabric issues.  Nametapes aren't even on the table for this discussion because VG isn't the only official source for them.

[RADIOMAN015]

Hmm, got to wonder how much merchandise stock The Hock Shop has on hand, that they were prohibited from selling by the so called cease & desist order

Perhaps they will consider donating these materials to various squadrons around the country (in order to get a tax write off) or they can send it to our squadron and we will distribute accordingly to those in need :angel:

This would help the poor Vanguard people in not having to process so many orders from CAP :angel:
RM

RM   

[Ned]

My point remains that if Vanguard and NHQ is going to demand 100% compliance in the idea of ONE VENDOR, that they agree that they must provide 100%  customer service to all CAP people.  If one is not reasonable, then I submit then neither is the other.

I suppose that is my point.

"100% customer service" is simply not a meaningful criteria, however laudable a goal it might be.

Are you really saying that every single one of the 50,000 + orders of the year must be perfect, and if not then VG has "failed"?

(B)eing the single vendor to all of CAP requires a higher degree of accuracy and customer service.

When compared to what, exactly?

The HOCK (which has had its own share of of complaints about quality and service)?

The Bookstore / CAPMART (which were never known for their quality of service.)?

The Standard of Perfection?

As for continuing issues with Vanguard, lets see if we can go six months without the sort of "issues" mentioned here. 

Again, this is simply not a workable standard. 

Six months without a single complaint would be nice, of course, but it simply isn't reasonably achievable by any company.

Imagine the mischief that could occur is all that was necessary to cancel our licensing agreement with VG were to count how many anonymous complaints were posted on the internet.  Competitors would gridlock our ability to provide members with the full line of CAP insignia with just a few clicks of their mice.

I will be making an order for name tapes on behalf of cadets; I will separate the order and make the name tapes on one order and the patches and "in-stock" items on another.  Let's see what happens.

Absolutely.

I'd be happy to hear about your experiences.

I am, however, willing to be reasonable...you relay to Mr. Bostwick these issues.  If there is improvement, I will stand down.  If not, what would you have me do?  Go contrary to my beliefs on the matter?  The only way to change my opinion on the matter is to prove to me otherwise. 

Well, that's the problem, isn't it?  How can I possibly "prove" to you a problem has been solved if we can't even establish that there is a problem to begin with?

I don't think I am asking you to "stand down" in any event.

If you get bad service from VG, absolutely share your experiences with your wing commander.  Who will have a say on whether or not VG remains as our exclusive provider.  Absolutely feel free to share your experiences with the program manager at NHQ.

That can only be a Good Thing.

The only problem I see here and in the related threads is leaping to the conclusion that VG has overall "bad customer service" based on fragmentary reports posted on the internet, some of which are anonymous.  There just isn't enough data to draw that conclusion.

It is one thing to know that you personally received bad service from VG; it is quite another to decide that everyone, most folks, or even a significant per centage of members get bad service based solely on anecdotal accounts posted here.

I expect nothing short of total dedication to CAP and its membership from Vanguard, by taking the action that it has is removing other suppliers they have that obligation.  I don't want to read that people are leaving early from there on Fridays, or that there are computer issues or any other cockamamie excuses.  If that is what we can expect, then bring back the other vendors.

I agree that all customers deserve and should expect good service.

But let everyone who has never had a computer problem, had a bad day at work, or left early on a Friday cast the first stone . . . . . .

And it bears repeating why it is not a good idea to simply cancel the agreement and open the floodgates to anyone with an embroidery machine to make a buck off our intellectual property.

1.  We have over a hundred unique uniform items, counting ribbons, grades, nameplates, etc.  By allowing folks to fiercely compete for the most popular items like BDU tapes and plastic nameplates, you will inevitably force up the price for the less popular items.  Folks are going to wind up paying far more for things like Silver Medal of Valor ribbons, Master CDI badges, and Group Commander badges. (Which probably only sell in the dozens in a good year.)

2.  We lose all control over quality of the insignia during the dive to the lowest possible prices for insignia made in offshore sweatshops.

3.  We would lose the small but significant revenue stream that helps pay for training facilities like Hawk Mountain and Oshkosh.

4.  Ironically, we lose control over customer service standards.  If VG values our business, it is in their best interest to maintain good customer service.  We have a program manager at NHQ who works this issue with VG now.  No contract means they don't have to respond to our concerns.  Case in point, Mr. Bostwick took the time to meet personally with me to help improve customer service.  That simply would not happen if there was no contract.

[PHall]

I am, however, willing to be reasonable...you relay to Mr. Bostwick these issues.  If there is improvement, I will stand down.  If not, what would you have me do?  Go contrary to my beliefs on the matter?  The only way to change my opinion on the matter is to prove to me otherwise.

Going for the Ray Hayden tactic? You going to call for a "strike" if, in your opinion, the service from Vanguard doesn't improve?

And I just love the  respect you're showing for a member of the Board of Governors....

[RiverAux]

Perhaps higher prices for the items that sell in the dozens each year in return for lower prices for the stuff used by thousands of CAP members is a worthwhile trade? 

[fyrfitrmedic]

 Perhaps there should be a topic name change to "Vanguard Apologia"?

[Major Carrales]

I am, however, willing to be reasonable...you relay to Mr. Bostwick these issues.  If there is improvement, I will stand down.  If not, what would you have me do?  Go contrary to my beliefs on the matter?  The only way to change my opinion on the matter is to prove to me otherwise.

Going for the Ray Hayden tactic? You going to call for a "strike" if, in your opinion, the service from Vanguard doesn't improve?

And I just love the  respect you're showing for a member of the Board of Governors....

I cannot call for a boycott, since there is only one place from where to get the needed materials and I am more more about running a squadron of Seniors and Cadets than allowing this destroy CAP operations.  However, I can freely call for the highest level of standards.

As for the Board of Governors, respect is not defined by blind obedience.  I disagree with what has occurred, I have made my opinion known to all...one would think they should want to know when the popularity of their decision is in question.

If they want to censure or order me to keep quiet about such matters they can do so, until then I and all of us are free to voice our opinion.  Or are only your machinations worthy of being voiced?

In all honesty, this whole thing is, in my opinion, a piece of bad press getting worse.   The decision to go with Vanguard was theirs to make, however, the backlash from much of the membership should be addressed.

As I understand it, Lt Col Flanagan created the HOCK to address the need for mitigation of the poor service of the Bookstore and, later, CAPMART.  He stockpiled CAP insignia so it could be available on the cuff.  Later, he sought other sources to produce the insignia and started to offer field gear and the like.

That is admirable...much more than many here do in even having a "squadron" store/stockpile of items cadets and seniors can obtain.   To have dropped him in this manner fails to address the spirit of this.  Vanguard's initial slow acceptance of these duties and the customer service reported here do not help the case.

I find this sad, Vanguard Industries has provided military insignia since 1919 or so (if memory serves), yet it is in poor reputation here in CAP due to all that that has been said and reported.  My beef is that they have to be uber-supportive of its CAP customers since they are, literally, all we've got.  Ned finds that to be unrealistic, I find it to be a mantle they took on when becoming "the ONE."

Now, if they can smooth all this out...great.  Until then they had better provide the service they claim to as our sole distributor.

[JeffDG]

You're not seriously suggesting that complaining directly to the person who has the responsibility for ensuring excellence is the wrong solution, are you?

I would say there's a better solution...competition.

You rarely, if ever, see such stories of customer service and complete indifference among employees of a competitive business.  You only see it in public service and private monopolies (think cable companies), because outside of those types of situations, customers are free to vote with their wallets and utilize competitors.

Unfortunately, Vanguard has been granted such a monopoly.  The choice people have is either put up with their bull excrement, or vote with their wallets in removing themselves from CAP.

[arajca]

That's try to compare apples to apples (or mostly so).

What is the level of service (percentage of problem orders) with the rest of Vanguard's lines? Is what CAP is seeing higher or lower than that?

If it's higher, we have a problem. If it's not, chalk it up to doo-doo happens.

[Ned]

Perhaps higher prices for the items that sell in the dozens each year in return for lower prices for the stuff used by thousands of CAP members is a worthwhile trade?

That is certainly a reasonable position.

As a practical matter, it will certainly mean that some ribbons and insignia will simply become significantly more expensive.  Things like Group Commander badges and Master EMT badges probably sell in the 50-100 units a year range.  Someone might want to make those for 5-10 times the current price.

But it will also mean that some insignia will simply become unobtainable for all practical purposes.

Things like a WWII target tracking ribbon, the CAP Lifesaving miniature medal, Master Historian Badges, etc.  Things that probably sell less than a dozen units a year.  They will simply fade away.

But of course most of us will never be touched by this kind of thing.  Essentially by definition, this will only affect a relatively few members.

And we can certainly discuss why we need so many unique ribbons and badges in the first place; IOW whether CAP should use "off the shelf" ribbons and insignia already created for the USAF or JROTC, or whatever.

But as long as our policy is that all of our members should be able to purchase all of our authorized insignia at a reasonable price, we are kinda stuck with the current agreement.  Or something like it.


I have tried to respond to the "monopoly" argument.  If VG is making a profit, it is in their competitive best interest to treat us well so that their contract may be renewed.  That is why this is different than a utility or government service.

And it is worth noting that a perfectly legal and inexpensive market for CAP-specfic items already exists - it is perfectly permissible for members to buy, sell, and trade existing insignia.  We see some of that here on CT.  I see it a lot on eBay.  IOW, there are some alternatives to VG, and allow members to vote with their wallets if they want.

And finally, I have not felt disrespected or attacked in this thread in any way.  And even if I had been, you have to have a pretty thick skin to do what I do in my job and in CAP.

And of course, this is a decision that was not made by the BoG in any event . . . 

[Rotorhead]

I have resorted to making paper name tapes and patches of exacting size and shape to have to accomplish the mission.

There are other sources for nametapes, which are of better quality and ship fast.

[caphornbuckle]

I am asking because I honestly do not know the answer:

Does Vanguard hold agreements with other organizations or companies as well or are they exclusive to CAP?  I do see that they have other items not related to CAP on their website as well.

If they do work with other organizations in an official capacity such as CAP, it would be understandable (to a point) that orders are going to be an issue and take longer.

That being said, I, too, have had problems with VG in the past.  I also had issues with The Hock.  Both handled the issues but one was quicker than the other in dealing with it.

I'm sure now that Mr. Bostwick is aware of our concerns, there will be some changes in the process.  We just have to wait and see what those changes are and if they have improved the service we expect.

The Hock spoiled us.  I don't think anyone could have done a better job in deliveries without paying an outrageous amount.  Now that that luxury isn't given to us, we complain because we don't have it.  My kids complained when I turned off the cable at home.  They still survived.  Just without the luxuries they've expected to have.  If it's going to take 2 weeks to get your order, simply order 3-4 weeks earlier than you need it!

[HGjunkie]

If it's going to take 2 weeks to get your order, simply order 3-4 weeks earlier than you need it!

More like a month in advance...