HAZING at encampment--WHAT is it?

[jeancalvinus]

RiverAux,

We had a senior meeting tonight, and after much discussion, we are leaving it to the cadet parents to decide whether or not to file an IG complaint. Your point about it being a wing activity is a good one. Anyway, as the encampment cadet commander involved was counseled and relieved, we are going to assume that all that is going to be done is done. As to the senior members involved, they aren't at our squadron, so we will have to leave that to higher to attend to (and trust that they have/ will).

What do I want done? Counseling, of course. Anything further (demotion, kicked out, suspended) is up to whoever has already handled it (or if the IG complaint goes forward, whoever will handle it). I don't want blood, I just want this type of thing to stop in CAP. I am disappointed by how many folks think a cadet can't be made without swearing in his face, depriving him of sleep, or roughing him up a little (not to mention the mickey mouse/ dunce cap like things that sometimes happen). We in CAP are not the military, we do not have an offensive (or defensive) mission, we carry no guns, and do not swear an oath to defend the constitution. Should we stress cadets? yes, but within the bounds of the regulations. It IS possible. We just have to rely somewhat on the cadets pride to motivate him, unlike the military, there isn't much of anything you can do with a recalcitrant cadet. Which is fine, if he doesn't want to train, he can go home.

If he DOES want to train, we have just the tools to develop him and make him a leader of men.

Jean

[Daniel]

I wonder....
Sending a cadet out of medical after giving him a laxative hazing or not?

[BrandonKea]

I wonder....
Sending a cadet out of medical after giving him a laxative hazing or not?

We might need a few more details to be able to answer that one.

[Daniel]

What sort of information?

[BrandonKea]

What sort of information?

The circumstances by which you think this is hazing, for one.

[Daniel]

Cadet with noted irritable bowel syndrome

Flight sargeant confronts cadet after he returns to medical in a command voice about why he didn't tell him about his lack of bowel movements sooner.

When he looks to be enbarassed and says 'I'm waiting for the laxative to kick in" in a quiet voice.

Flight sargeant says its nothing to be ashamed about

[BrandonKea]

Cadet with noted irritable bowel syndrome, 6 hours after he is given the laxative he soils himself.

Why was he given a laxative? Did he request it?

[Daniel]

Cadet with noted irritable bowel syndrome, 6 hours after he is given the laxative he soils himself.

Why was he given a laxative? Did he request it?

I editted.

[BrandonKea]

Cadet with noted irritable bowel syndrome

Flight sargeant confronts cadet after he returns to medical in a command voice about why he didn't tell him about his lack of bowel movements sooner.

When he looks to be enbarassed and says 'I'm waiting for the laxative to kick in" in a quiet voice.

Flight sargeant says its nothing to be ashamed about

Doesn't sound like hazing. Sounds like the Flight Sergeant was concerned about the cadet having a health issue, and he probably was a little upset that the cadet didn't come to him with it. Was the cadet wrong? Absolutely not, the cadet had every right to go to the Medic with the issue. The cadet should have (hopefully) advised the Flight Sergeant that he needed to see the Medic. If asked why, he could have said he would just like to discuss that with the Medic.

The Flight Sergenant seems borderline insensitive, but this is not hazing.

[PA Guy]

I think there is probably more to the story but based on what is posted:
Poor communication skills? Maybe
Lack of sensitivity? Maybe
Hazing? No

[Daniel]

one last thing

The cadet had to fight him to fall out when it was 'time'

[BrandonKea]

one last thing

The cadet had to fight him to fall out when it was 'time'

Still not hazing. If it was that bad, the cadet should have just fallen out on his own. Some things are easier to explain later.

Also, if you want honest feedback on this kind of thing, give us the information all up front. Playing the "trump card" game on CAPTalk is annoying.

[Daniel]

ahh well. The cadet was cool with it, his parents weren't so much though.

[RiverAux]

As this was a wing activity, there isn't anything your squadron folks are going to be able to do to resolve the issue, so I would recommend filing a complaint to the Wing Commander. But, before you do, think about what results would make you happy?  Do you want the cadets and seniors involved kicked out?  Counseled?

Not sure jumping straight to the Wing King™ would be the best idea.

"Members should follow the chain of command. Commanders and members should make every attempt to resolve problems, conflicts, and disputes within CAP at the lowest level possible."

IG maybe?

The IG system really sees itself as a back-up route to resolving issues not really the first place you go, at least thats what I got from a quick reading the Complaints regulation and a few other things on their web site.  Whether you go to IC or Wing commander probably doesn't make a lot of difference, but the Wing Commander is really the guy that has some authority.  I see the IG as the person you go to when the person in authority isn't doing what they should be doing.  6 of one, half a dozen of another though.

Incidentally, you can send anonymous complaints to the IG.

[BrandonKea]

As this was a wing activity, there isn't anything your squadron folks are going to be able to do to resolve the issue, so I would recommend filing a complaint to the Wing Commander. But, before you do, think about what results would make you happy?  Do you want the cadets and seniors involved kicked out?  Counseled?

Not sure jumping straight to the Wing King™ would be the best idea.

"Members should follow the chain of command. Commanders and members should make every attempt to resolve problems, conflicts, and disputes within CAP at the lowest level possible."

IG maybe?

The IG system really sees itself as a back-up route to resolving issues not really the first place you go, at least thats what I got from a quick reading the Complaints regulation and a few other things on their web site.  Whether you go to IC or Wing commander probably doesn't make a lot of difference, but the Wing Commander is really the guy that has some authority.  I see the IG as the person you go to when the person in authority isn't doing what they should be doing.  6 of one, half a dozen of another though.

Incidentally, you can send anonymous complaints to the IG.

Well idealy this would be brought to the Encampment commander. I guess the question is what role does the encampment commander play after the encampment is over. Likely, the issue would be brought up to the Wing Commander, and likely, and investigation would be started, usually through the IG. Just my .02, ya'll may be right too.

[jeancalvinus]

Update:

The parents of one the cadets pulled him out of CAP this week. The encampment experience was the chief reason why. I am very saddened by this.

I do realize people quit organizations all of the time, sometime for good reasons, sometimes for bad ones. I also know that you cannot keep all cadets involved. However, it is frustrating that a cadet who volunteers to go to an encampment as staff, gets treated this way and quits the program.

I think keeping the idea that we are all volunteers at the forefront of our thinking will go a long ways towards preventing this kind of thing in the future. The cadet commander was brought in from out of state, showed up late, and then tried to come in and "whip the staff into shape." This of course showed some immaturity, he failed to keep in mind that his cadet staff were all volunteers and had given up their own time to be at the encampment.

When parents complain to me about other senior members, I try and remind them about the volunteer factor to try and temper their complaints a bit (unless of course the complaint s a legal issue).

Jean

[Airrace]

Hazing is - Any action taken or situation created intentionally:
that causes embarrassment, harassment or ridicule risks emotional and/or physical harm to members of an organization or team whether new or not regardless of the person's willingness to participate.

Still confused? Ask yourself these questions:

Would I feel comfortable participating in this activity if my parents were watching?

Would we get in trouble if the Dean of Students walked by?

Am I being asked to keep these activities a secret?

Am I doing anything illegal?

Does participation violate my values or those of my organization?

Is it causing emotional distress or stress of any kind to myself or others?

Sounds to me like your answer is yes this can be some type of hazing and should not be allowed!

[Ned]

Hazing is - [. . .[

While this is not a bad definition of hazing, (and the discussion questions are certainly worth considering), let's remember that CAP does have a (slightly) different definition of hazing.  Which we adopted verbatim  from the Department of Defense.

All CAP hazing questions must be measured against the DoD definition.


And a side note to Jean:

It is certainly tempting to consider our volunteer status while evaluating CAP activities, but the standards in this area are the same for all participants: paid or volunteer, full time or part time, adult or minor.

Poor leadership is no less poor because it is exercised by a volunteer. 

Rotten people skills are no less rotten . . .

Hazing done by volunteer is no less hazing than that performed by a professional.

You get the idea.



One of the major points of the cadet program is to teach leadership skills that will empower the cadet in all aspects of her/his life.  Whether they go on to leadership roles in the business world, civil government, the military, or their church, the standards will largely be the same.


I hope the parents and the (former) cadet will be able to reconsider after some time away and re-engage.  This program is a large and challenging one.  I hope that one bad experience at encampment will not be forclose future participation.


Ned Lee

[jeancalvinus]

Ned,

Good post. Perhaps I need to clarify: the volunteer aspect is what I wished the cadet commander kept in his view. He showed up, evaluated the cadet staff he was given to work with, decided they were deficient in their CAP knowledge (told them so), and began to treat them like they also were basic trainees. Instead of recognizing that they were what he had to work with, and being patient and focusing on the mission (get the basic attendees through the encampment), he tried to conduct a basic encampment and square away 40% of his staff at the same time (despite showing up 2 days late and not having any previous relationship with any of his staff, period). Had he kept in view that what he could accomplish was very much dependent on the existing skill set of his staff, he then could have addressed whatever deficiencies he thought were mission critical, and let the rest of them go. Keeping the volunteer aspect of things in view would have also enabled him to place a high priority on building a working relationship with the staff. Folks need to understand that sometimes you have to work with what is there, because there isn't time to get replacements, and even if there were, none may be available. So unless there is a legal or moral issue at stake, suck it up and develop your problem solving skills by getting the cadets through the training. often you learn along the way that your help isn't as unskilled as you thought (it can also go the other way of course).

I do know the cadet commander in question had been to at least one high visibility encampment and performed so well he was asked to come lead this one. It just goes to show that having great individual skills doesn't mean you have great trainer skills (or people skills). Just because because you've been through some tough, valuable training doesn't make you a duty expert on all things CAP. Gotta love the self confidence, but it seems it wasn't well founded.

Jean

[Spike]

Ya.... Cadet Commander coming in 2 days late is a no-go on the part of the Senior Encampment Commander.  If he or she could not find a cadet competent enough to be Cadet Commander, it was a setup from the start, so much so that there was no Cadet commander for 2 days.

I suspect changes will come down from Wing (if not region) for the next Encampment.  If you still have issues, I suggest you address them to the Wing/ Region IG.  Make sure your observations are taken note of.

Wow.....bringing in an out of Wing Cadet is like a slap int eh face to those Wing members that spent years moving up the chain of command at encampment. 

BAD MOVE all around.