Wimpy Encampments

[TexasCadet]

You said that girls learn better without boys around. Are you suggesting that we segregate our squadrons and classrooms into "boys only" and "girls only"?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Now, the only other thing I don't agree with, and this is speaking as a woman, is the integration of Female cadets with Male Cadets.  I say this because, as teens, female cadets tend to be 1) more mature than males at the same age (Sorry guys, that is a physiological thing, we grow up a little faster) and 2) we tend to focus better on learning without boys around and finally, 3) We also tend to work better with other girls. This has been shown in many studies. I do not think we need or should be held to a different standard, just kept 'separate' during certain activities. There's also the whole hormonal thing teens have., but that is something entirely different.

Just my thoughts.

An Equal Opportunity complaint just waiting to happen. I'm pretty sure "separate but equal" has been tried and found wanting before.

[Storm Chaser]

Now, the only other thing I don't agree with, and this is speaking as a woman, is the integration of Female cadets with Male Cadets.  I say this because, as teens, female cadets tend to be 1) more mature than males at the same age (Sorry guys, that is a physiological thing, we grow up a little faster) and 2) we tend to focus better on learning without boys around and finally, 3) We also tend to work better with other girls. This has been shown in many studies. I do not think we need or should be held to a different standard, just kept 'separate' during certain activities. There's also the whole hormonal thing teens have., but that is something entirely different.

Heck, why not have separate schools while we're at it. No, I disagree with you point of view. CAP is not the Boy or Girl Scouts.

That's not how we run the Cadet Programs in our squadrons, nor how National Cadet Special Activities or other schools are run. Why should encampment be any different?

[TexasCadet]

Actually, this logic would work well. My squadron has 20 male cadets and 3 female cadets. We can have two flights (male and female), two classrooms (male and female), and two uniform inspections (male and female). Wonderful idea. 

[SarDragon]

I've been involved in two encampments where the guys and gals were in separate flights, one as a cadet, and one as a SM. In both cases, the gals consistently outperformed the guys. In both cases, the gals ended up as honor flight. So, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

OTOH, integrating them could have the benefit of the "more mature" girls showing the "immature" boys how it's done.

YMMV.

[Critical AOA]

And here I always thought that the reason woman live on average five years longer than men is that it takes them that much longer to mature. 

[TexasCadet]

Not all male cadets are immature. Example: At my encampment, some male cadets acted like idiots, while some of us actually did a good job. In fact, the male barracks I was in was the only barracks in the entire encampment (staff included) to pass an Army sergeant major's white-glove inspection.

[PHall]

I've been the Tac Officer for all male flights, all female flights and mixed gender flights and I've noticed a few things over the years.

All female flights tend to bond quicker and start using teamwork faster then the guys do.

Example: Encampment starts on Saturday. By Tuesday the girls are working together, but their performance starts dropping off by Friday.
The Guys don't get the clue until Wednesday/Thursday and they usually peak on Saturday.
The co-ed flights seem to combine this stuff as in they're working in teams by Tuesday and their performance stays peaked all the way until graduation.

[Elioron]

I find it interesting that you have integrated flights at encampment.  How does that work with billeting and flight time?  If you have a barracks with 12 bunk beds (10 for the 20 cadets, one for the TAC Officer) you would have to have two half-filled barracks per flight.  How does this promote teamwork?  It's basically two separate flights that drill together.  Then there's the problem of supervision - you either have to have two TAC Officers for every flight (one male & one female) or there is no TAC Officer for one gender.  Then there's the issue with showers.

As far as the intensity issue, I think it works great when done properly.  If you're having issues with staff going overboard, either you aren't training your staff properly or the TAC Officers aren't paying attention - that's their primary purpose.  It is decidedly NOT supposed to be the same intensity as a squadron - otherwise why go through the expense and trouble of having an encampment at all?  Just let the squadrons train them.  The point of intensity is to push them into realizing that they are better as a team than as individuals.  If you're following the curriculum, intensity wanes through the week.  The banquet and graduation should be normal intensity like their squadron, but that's at the end.

[TexasCadet]

I've been the Tac Officer for all male flights, all female flights and mixed gender flights and I've noticed a few things over the years.

All female flights tend to bond quicker and start using teamwork faster then the guys do.

Example: Encampment starts on Saturday. By Tuesday the girls are working together, but their performance starts dropping off by Friday.
The Guys don't get the clue until Wednesday/Thursday and they usually peak on Saturday.
The co-ed flights seem to combine this stuff as in they're working in teams by Tuesday and their performance stays peaked all the way until graduation.

Mixed-gender flights do work well. At my encampment, the girls made really good bunks, and the guys polished shoes really well.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I find it interesting that you have integrated flights at encampment.  How does that work with billeting and flight time?  If you have a barracks with 12 bunk beds (10 for the 20 cadets, one for the TAC Officer) you would have to have two half-filled barracks per flight.  How does this promote teamwork?  It's basically two separate flights that drill together.  Then there's the problem of supervision - you either have to have two TAC Officers for every flight (one male & one female) or there is no TAC Officer for one gender.  Then there's the issue with showers.

As far as the intensity issue, I think it works great when done properly.  If you're having issues with staff going overboard, either you aren't training your staff properly or the TAC Officers aren't paying attention - that's their primary purpose.  It is decidedly NOT supposed to be the same intensity as a squadron - otherwise why go through the expense and trouble of having an encampment at all?  Just let the squadrons train them.  The point of intensity is to push them into realizing that they are better as a team than as individuals.  If you're following the curriculum, intensity wanes through the week.  The banquet and graduation should be normal intensity like their squadron, but that's at the end.

I'll let ecplise chime in, as I'm out the door, but for starters not all encampments have the same accamodations. Second, showers and sleep is pretty much the only time the mixed flight is separated.

[Elioron]

I'll let ecplise chime in, as I'm out the door, but for starters not all encampments have the same accommodations. Second, showers and sleep is pretty much the only time the mixed flight is separated.

We've done encampment at a couple of different places, but one of the things we look for is bay barracks where everyone is in the same room.  It has a huge impact for camaraderie and a sense of unity for the flight.  In fact, we no longer use one site because they converted their barracks to dorm-style rooms.  Is it common at other encampments to have cadets in the same flight in different rooms?

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'll let ecplise chime in, as I'm out the door, but for starters not all encampments have the same accommodations. Second, showers and sleep is pretty much the only time the mixed flight is separated.

We've done encampment at a couple of different places, but one of the things we look for is bay barracks where everyone is in the same room.  It has a huge impact for camaraderie and a sense of unity for the flight.  In fact, we no longer use one site because they converted their barracks to dorm-style rooms.  Is it common at other encampments to have cadets in the same flight in different rooms?

Our encampment has a need for only two compartments. If it was an "all male" crowd, pretty much all of the cadets could be in just one:

[Elioron]

Our encampment has a need for only two compartments. If it was an "all male" crowd, pretty much all of the cadets could be in just one:

I think part of my thinking is that my only experience is with encampments of 100-150 cadets, so filling full flights of females wasn't really an issue.  If you don't have enough females to make a full flight you have to provide a way for them to complete encampment or their growth in the program is hampered.

By the way, I hope I didn't come across as saying that mixed flights were wrong.  I am genuinely interested in how these challenges are overcome.  We are looking to move our encampment again, and not having the flights billeted together would open up more options.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Our encampment has a need for only two compartments. If it was an "all male" crowd, pretty much all of the cadets could be in just one:

I think part of my thinking is that my only experience is with encampments of 100-150 cadets, so filling full flights of females wasn't really an issue.  If you don't have enough females to make a full flight you have to provide a way for them to complete encampment or their growth in the program is hampered.

By the way, I hope I didn't come across as saying that mixed flights were wrong.  I am genuinely interested in how these challenges are overcome.  We are looking to move our encampment again, and not having the flights billeted together would open up more options.

We've done 100 cadets just fine with two compartments - all the males in one, and the females in the other.

WIWACEFS (WIWAC Encampment First Sergeant), my exec staff and I came up with this brilliant idea of increasing efficiency and time spent every morning/evening on getting ready/showers, etc by making male and female flights. Logic being, the males wouldn't "have to" wait on the females to come into their compartment for PT, and flights wouldn't "have to" wait for the females to join the rest of their flight mates.

In fact, here's the email exchange from 2006:

Ok all,  XXXXXXXX and I were talking about some issues we've noticed at past encampments due to co-ed flights.  We both feel that if we have enough female cadets, we should have an all female flight.  Some of the reasons as to why think this is as follows:   - It will lessen the distractions for both the male and female cadets so the flight staff can do their job more efficienlty.   - It will help the flight staff know where every member of their flight is at all times.   - It saves us from having to wait for the other "half" of the flight in the mornings, and will help things move quicker.   - We also believe it will make the females feel more comfortable in the environment of mostly males.   The faster we get your opinions, the better!!!   c/Capt YYYYYYYYYYYY GLE 06 Cadet Commander

Feb 21, 2006 at 7:27 AM       That is a great idea, I was actually thinking about it, because when Lt.XXXXXX  and I went to Honor Guard Academy, the flights were segregated, and it worked great. I am all for it, and usssually we have about 15-20 females so we should technically have enough females.



Michael Hatkevich, C/CMSgt, CAP

Team,I have been thinking a lot about this.
I think it's important that we keep the flights coed - I recognize the issues that this brings up but I am confident that you can overcome them.  I think it's important that everyone get a chance to get to know each other and that we maintain a sense of teamwork among all genders.  If all of the armed forces BMT schools can do it - so can we.  It just means more pressure on the flight commanders to make sure that if it says report at 0630 that means everyone - males and females.

2d Lt ZZZZZZZZZ CAPCommandant of Cadets, llinois Wing Spring Encampment 2006

[Ned]

Gender segregation is not the preferred option, but is almost always facility-driven.  In other words, we normally do not segregate by gender unless forced to by the facility design or layout.

And of course, we do not typically have much choice when it comes to our encampment facilities.  We pretty much have to take what we can get.  So it may be that a given encampment has to be gender segregated.

I hope it goes almost without saying why gender segregation is not the preferred option.  The whole point of the cadet program is to teach leadership and related skills.  And one of our strengths is that we do so through a participatory Leadership Laboratory, where cadets actively learn and practice leadership techniques.  If we do our job correctly, cadets will go on to become leaders in their communities, businesses, and in government service.

As others have described, same sex flights tend to have significantly differing internal dynamics when compared to mixed gender flights.

But in today's society, men and women work together in business and government service.  The days of workplaces being highly segregated by gender are largely behind us.   Cadets should not spend what is likely the most intensive leadership training experience they will receive in their lives in an artificially gender segregated environment. 

I still think there is a great deal to be learned about human nature and leadership even in a gender segregated encampment.  But the lessons are more realistic and applicable to modern society when learned in a co-ed environment.

Finally, gender segregation, even when necessary, tends to result in reduced training and learning opportunities for female cadet NCOs and officers, simple because of the typical gender ratios of CAP cadets.  If there is only one female flight (out of 5 flights), then there is typically only going to be a single female flight sergeant position available regardless of how many qualified female applicants are available.  This has a cascading effect in the out years since the female flight commander tends to be last year's flight sergeant.  Similarly, squadron commanders are most often selected from the pool of cadets who have been successful flight commanders.  And so on.  Thus, some of our best and brightest young women may be unable to be competative for the advanced leadership training that comes with being on staff.

(Some encampments forced to gender segregate may be able to have both male and female flight staff assigned to a flight, but normally the same conditions that forced the original gender segregation choice tend to require same sex flight staff as well.  Things like WWII style open-bay barracks with group shower rooms and "stall - less" latrines.)

CAP's encampment program is one of the best things we do for our cadets.  Even if a given wing is forced by facility issues to segregate.  I have always been faintly jealous of the Army Cadet's model that assumes that each cadet and adult leader will attend their encampment-equivalent every year.  I don't think that will work for CAP, but it is fun to think about.

Ned Lee
Encampment Enthusiast

[Elioron]

We've done 100 cadets just fine with two compartments - all the males in one, and the females in the other.

Ok, you are using BIG compartments.  If you have multiple flights in the same bay, that adds another dynamic.

Some encampments forced to gender segregate may be able to have both male and female flight staff assigned to a flight, but normally the same conditions that forced the original gender segregation choice tend to require same sex flight staff as well.  Things like WWII style open-bay barracks with group shower rooms and "stall - less" latrines.

Thank you, Ned - good post.

We've used the old pre-WWII barracks at North Fort Lewis the last two years.  Each building has two floors with a bay of twelve bunk beds and a staff room with one bunk bed, then a single bathroom on the bottom floor with four bathroom stalls and an open shower with three heads.  Each flight (up to 20 cadets) had their bay along with the gender-matched TAC Officer.  The staff would stay in the staff rooms.  Because the staff rooms have only two beds we could mix the gender of staff easily by simply having them trade sleeping areas (Alpha Flt Sgt would switch with Bravo Flt Comm to keep genders together).  Last year we had one female flight, but we had a lot of female line staff.  Prior to North Fort we used similar (but much newer) facilities at Camp Murray.

There was a lot of bonding and camaraderie during the personal time just before lights out.  I can't help but wonder if that sense of team wouldn't be hampered by being separated, whether because of gender or space available.  I also understand that there is the ideal and there is what we have to work with.  I think you nailed it by saying it was primarily motivated by your facility.

Does anyone have experience using dorm-style billeting where the flight is broken into rooms of two or four cadets each?

Here is the barracks for our female flight last year.  Notice that both the Flight Commander and Flight Sergeant (this year) were male.  We had female Flight Commanders and Flight Sergeants, but they were assigned elsewhere.

[jeders]

There was a lot of bonding and camaraderie during the personal time just before lights out.  I can't help but wonder if that sense of team wouldn't be hampered by being separated, whether because of gender or space available.  I also understand that there is the ideal and there is what we have to work with.  I think you nailed it by saying it was primarily motivated by your facility.

Does anyone have experience using dorm-style billeting where the flight is broken into rooms of two or four cadets each?

When I went to my basic encampment we were billeted in the VAQ at Randolph AFB. Each room held 3 cadets (with one large bed) with two rooms sharing a bathroom. The cadets in my room were all in the same flight, but the cadets we shared a bathroom with were from a different flight. The only problem that arose was that we got in trouble for all three of us sleeping in sleeping bags on the floor and no one using the bed.

As for camaraderie, I don't feel that being in separate rooms impacted that. We still had personal time where we were allowed to go to other rooms or even hang out at the pavilion in the middle of the area we were staying at. We were also a co-ed flight

[Mitchell 1969]

My first encampment was in 1969 in an open-bay barracks, which had been the norm for CAP during the 50's and 60's. Most likely because open-bay was the norm for the military services in training environments.

I've since been to encampments held in a variety of facilities. One of the more unusual places was the not-much-lamented "Inland House" at what used to be Norton AFB. It was a warehouse complex converted to transient housing. Looked like a warehouse on the outside, but looked like a finest kind cheesy motel in the inside. With individual rooms, none having a window.

The place that has been held dear in the hearts of many from CA WG was the facility at Vandenberg AFB, used from the 1970's to the late 1980's. It was a AFROTC field training facility. Dedicated dining hall, HQ building, nearby classroom building. WWII era barracks converted to two-person rooms. Each had a room on each floor big enough for three racks. The ground floor one was a combined Tactical Officer quarters and office. The upstairs mirror of that room held three cadets. Cadet flight commander had his/her own room on the ground floor, flight sergeant and assistant Tactical Officer each had a room to themselves on the upper floor. So, a cadet staff member and tactical officer on each floor.

I remember some moaning and wailing in 1973 over those barracks not being open bay and that training would suffer. But when those barracks were unavailable in 1980, there was even more moaning and wailing - the facility had become ingrained as being almost indispensable as a training environment. "Encampment just won't be the SAME!"  And there was great jubilation heard throughout California when the facility again became available in 1983, after a few years of Army, USMC and other facilities. (The facility was unceremoniously bulldozed out of existence when all AFROTC training was consolidated at Lackland AFB).

I guess my point is - CAP adapts. The facility isn't the only element that makes up a training environment.

[Eclipse]

Gender segregation is not the preferred option, but is almost always facility-driven.  In other words, we normally do not segregate by gender unless forced to by the facility design or layout.

Are we talking about billeting or flight composition.

Gender segregation is required for billeting, but why would a venue dictate the flight composition?