I just withdrew from Encampment.

[Eclipse]

It's hard to argue "mission comes first", but I don't know that it applies in this case.

[Al Sayre]

Right or wrong the real issue is the fallout.  Because of the way it was handled first by the encampment staff and second by the cadet, chances are that this will affect cadets thinking about going to that wing's encampment for the next few years.  The incident is out there now, and you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.  How many cadets are going to say "Well, I heard Lt X got screwed when he went to YY Wing Encampment, so I won't attend there..." How many SQ/CC's and SQ/CDC's are going to steer cadets away from that encampment?  It's little incidents like this that hurt everyone.  Remember, perception is the reality of the perceiver...

[ol'fido]

I disagree.

Professionalism is professionalism whether you get paid or not.

Managing volunteers is an add challenge to CAP leaders (and I agree with you, screw over a volunteer too much and he walks).....but MISSION COMES FIRST that is what marks a professional vs a wannabe or fair weather member.

The mission  does come first. But what is the "mission" of the encampment? The cadets ARE the mission. Teaching them about leadership is at the core of encampment's purpose. If this story happened as Daniel said it did, you already have MISSION FAILURE.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Again, I don't think ANYONE is disputing removing a cadet if necessary. HOWEVER, this should have been done BEFORE the drive to another state, and during the planning stage for cause.

I can really see it (as presented to us), the C/CC and the C/Major know each other or get to know each other really well at COS. The C/CC, along with the C/Major and General Mom lay it into the Senior staff that C/Major is a GREAT fit for the job, and the SM staff tell the C/CC it's her call.

Either way, why wouldn't the C/1st Lt be told at arrival, not by the end of a whole day? I'm going to assume that the SM leadership knew, so why would they let it go unresolved and for that long? I'm sorry, but this whole situation stinks. Both, on the COS-Graduate C/CC and the SM staff.

[RiverAux]

While we certainly don't know all the details of why this switch was made, we know the following:
1.  1st Lt. was told he was going to have a certain position at an encampment. 
2.  He paid good money to the Wing so that he could come.
3.  After 1 & 2 the other Wing changed their mind about #1. 
4.  The other wing knew about this change in plenty of time to tell the 1st Lt. about it and to let him decide whether he still wanted to come. 

Nothing else matters.  This is a failure on the part of the other wing to let the cadet know about changed circumstances and the cadet was absolutely right to leave.

And if you want to keep comparing to a mission, would you really want to work on a mission at a base that was so incredibly disorganized, uncaring, and inefficient that despite knowing that they were going to use you in a position other than what you were told you were going to be doing, that they didn't make the courteous call to let you know about it so that you could decide whether it was still worth your time, vacation hours, and money to travel there to participate?  Those are people that I wouldn't trust to make sure the airplanes are safe and that probably won't make sure that they're not sending my plane into a grid with someone else already there. 

Keep in mind that we're not talking about a last minute change made for the good of the mission after things are underway.  There was plenty of time to resolve this ahead of time.  Granted, the Lt. would still get shaft, but it would have saved a lot of time and money. 

[lordmonar]

Been there done that.

Walked into the mission base with survival gear over my shoulder, flight bag in hand, wearing my poop suit......hey....we need you to GBD.

Did not like it....made may opinion known the the leadership.......did GBD.

MISSION.

The encampment failed the cadet by not properly informing him and giving him the option to pull out.....okay.....I'll buy that.
The cadet failed a life lesson that he is going to have to learn....or he will quickly find himself at the bottom of the pecking order.

Encampment staff pay for something to eat and a place to sleep.  They are there to work.  I SAY AGAIN....they are there to work.  Their mission is to get the encampment done.  That they also gain a valuable life and leadership laboratory is secondary to the primary function of the event....ENCAMPMENT.

Anyone not on board with this concept.....is barking up the wrong tree.  Too often I have seen encampments and other "leadership" training events held for the benefit of the staff and not the supposed recipients of the course.  It is one of my pet peeves.  Danial L....is probably a good cadet and got a real royal going over.  Sorry for that.  If he had asked me....I would have told him the same thing....the mission comes first...stick it out and learn from it.  Come home, bad mouth the encampment leadership and never ever trust them again.

He however got other advice and I feel has gotten some negative training. 

[Eclipse]

First, going from aircrew to GBD is not a step down or an insult to your abilities.  If anything you'd have a more significant role in the mission, hardly comparable to this situation.

Next, they did exactly what you are saying they shouldn't - they put the needs and personal desires of the staff cadets before the mission because of neopotism.

No way is a last minute day player more prepared for this specific activity than a cadet who was involved in the planning.

No, way.

You can argue he has more general experience because of his grade, but not better prep for the specific activity. The day before he wasn't even going.  He's lucky he knew where it was.

[lordmonar]

A.  A job is a job is a job.  If you are going to get involved in CAP if and only if you can be in charge or in the "good job"  Then maybe you need to look at your motivations.

b.  You assume that Lt Dan L's story is the whole story.  That the only reason they gave the job to the Major was because of personal desire and not maybe thinking that a C/Maj is better for the XO job then a C/Lt.

c.  You assume that C/ Dan L did any planning.  No where did he say that he did...no where did he ever mention any advanced planning.   Nor do we know how much (if any) the C/Maj may have been involved with the planning....even if he did not intend to attend the encampment.

I know that I am speculating just as much as you are.....but I will defend the leadership of the encampment....until I have have proof otherwise.

Anyway......I think I am becoming repetitive....so with that I am breaking off.  G'night

[Eclipse]

Reread his responses, he was involved in planning.

A job is not a job, especially when you are paying for the privelge of working.

[Hawk200]

I'm not seeing a "better fit" when it comes to someone that decided the day of that he wanted to go. The person that was selected, and then denied the opportunity for his own training is the one that lost out here.

He should have been notified that he was not needed. Hope he gets his check back. If another "superior" cadet gets to change his mind and attend, then the losing party here deserves his money back.

I don't see how someone that changes his mind is a "better fit for the mission." Then again, if someone really likes having a wishy washy type, I guess they're good. I wouldn't choose such a person. Seems like someone failed the gutcheck by not telling Mr. "Oh, I can make it now" that he was either gonna pass out Bandaids, or he could stay home. It's obvious nepotism, clear and simple. Moving someone up when they show up may have been an inconvenience for them. Moving them down sends a different and very clear message.

[N Harmon]

I thought we were only discussing the circumstances as they were presented here. I guess if you want to speculate you could simply say they were trying to drop a hint that the cadet was an outsider and wasn't welcome.

Either way, you can say "Mission" until you're blue in the face, but it has nothing to do with leaving a job that involves you doing nothing...

"Well Lieutenant, I know you were supposed to be on an aircrew this mission, but Major Bob just became available. We don't really have a job for you...I guess we could use someone to man the parking lot and show people where the restrooms are."

"Well sir, I do need to complete my requirements for aircrew, but okay, you can count on me."

"Oh and Lieutenant, can you let Major Bob over there use your headset? He did not bring one."

"Uh, sure. Here you go sir."

[skip to the end of the day]

"Sir, I manned that parking lot all day today and not a single person asked where the restrooms were. Did you know there was a big sign that said where the restrooms are? Do you think maybe I can train for aircrew tomorrow?"

"Well Lieutenant, we have a full schedule for tomorrow. I am not sure if we have a position available for you. The best I can do is put you in charge of the parking lot again."

"No thank you sir, I think I will sign out and go home."

(to the AOBD) "I knew that Lieutenant wasn't dedicated to the mission. Good thing we didn't assign him to an aircrew. Know where we can get a spare headset from for Major Bob?"

[Briski]

I don't have anything to add to the discussion at hand, other than this:

Cadet Daniel, I'm impressed that despite your disappointment and frustration--regardless of the circumstances--you have successfully refrained from publicly naming the leaders and the wing in question. You haven't even fully identified yourself, which would be an inadvertent and subtle way of identifying the wing.

There are many lessons about leadership and followership in your experience at this encampment. Don't squander this opportunity to learn them.

Hang in there.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Capt Briski,

I was just as impressed by the same things as you, however the reality is that anyone with an interest can probably go through his previous posts, the CAP website, and the web in general to figure out which wing it was. Not quite hard, at all.


BTW, a slow search led me to the Wing in question within 25 minutes.

[Hawk200]

BTW, a slow search led me to the Wing in question within 25 minutes.

Maybe so, but he didn't tell you. You had to find out for yourself. I think he shows a lot of maturity, and some real class, to not spew it out there.

[Daniel]

Greetings,

I'm posting because I'm done with this topic, I want to bury this entire incident in a very deep grave and move on with my cadet career. A few of you towards the end noticed I didn't post the wings name or individuals names. That's because this was never about them. This was about me, and what lesson I could take from this. It seemed like no one could say I didn't get a bum rap and maybe so, other than that it boiled down to do things, stay and complete the "mission" or take my pale and shovel and go back to my own sandbox.

As for what I can learn from this, that is simple. I know now that I probably was very angry afterwards and I know that came off in my discussions with the camp staff. everyone has point-of-views and since there is a conflict thier point-of-view is most likely different from yours, this doesn't make others wrong or you right. When everything is going good it is easy to keep a cool head and be professional but it is when you are in a situation that is difficult however.. Having a temper never make a situation better, only worse, and it is improtant to remember that.

As for my cadet career, it is hopefully going to remain strong for a great while to come. It is to my regret that I don't plan on attending encampment next year, and instead plan on attending Cadet Officer School in AL because I'm going to need it for the eaker.

[jimmydeanno]

It is to my regret that I don't plan on attending encampment next year, and instead plan on attending Cadet Officer School in AL because I'm going to need it for the eaker.

I wouldn't regret not going to encampment because of conflicting dates of COS.  COS is an outstanding program, and you won't be missing anything by not going to encampment.  Good luck as you continue moving along your course.

[CAP4117]

Daniel, you are wise beyond your years. Well done. Good luck with the rest of your cadet career. 

[lordmonar]

Let me add that while I was/am critical of your decision.....you were the man and the spot and you used your resources to the best of your abilities and have here on CAPTALK shown good discretion and tact.

Kudos to you.

I would definitely look at COS next year and other NCSAs as well.  Encampment is not the be all, end all of CAP and in many ways can be a detractor to learning all CAP wants to teach you.

Good luck.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Plus, who knows. Come next time you'll be what, a C/Major? Maybe they'll just offer the C/XO job to you right after COS.

Kidding aside, having looked at your posting over the last two years, you come off as a great cadet, and I would have no reservations about someone of your caliber staffing an event.

Here's to bigger and greater opportunities for you!

[Ron1319]

The solution is rather simple.  Get your diamonds and be part of the leadership that prevents and fights against this type of things from happening to other cadets.  This type of thing is one of the reasons the cadet retention rate is terrible and why so few cadets bother to complete the program.