Hawk Mt. Staff Training is it the hardest in CAP?

[GroundHawg]

I went to HMRS 3 times as a cadet. Really enjoyed my experience with the Medic Program in paticular. Most folks on here like the concept of HMRS, but HMRS always ruins it. Its the tude that is picked up for whatever reason. The attitudes are dropped at my squadron the second they return and all the bling that goes with it. They can keep the tabs and patch, but the scarves, laces, belts, whistle chains, crushed covers, etc.... are not tolerated.
As for me, I would be thrilled if anyone on HMRS staff would return an email...

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Slow your roll Cadet Adams,

Many Colonels frequent this forum, some from your wing.  With your name and unit number posted it would be in your best interest not to be openly disrespecting CAP officers (read: Senior Members).  I advise that you reread the code of conduct for the forum, and not get too worked up over some of the opinions you find on this board, especially ones from threads that are almost a year old.

I am sorry Sir, i meant absolutley no disrespect to anyone, cadet or senior members. I really was trying to ask questions more that just do what everyone else does on these forums.... argue. And the swear i used, i completely honestly did not realize i used until i posted it. Again Sir, I sincerely apologize to anyone i may have offended or disrespected.

The way you type sends a lot about the way you are meaning your words. Using things like !?!, or ALL CAPS shows anger and disrespect. Settle down a bit, take a breather, and step away for five minutes. If that doesn't help, write your response in Word, read it a couple of times and think about how it makes you feel to read it, if it still gets your blood pumping, just don't write it.

I think Hawk is a great school, here in INWG though, it is tough to get to PAWG, and NESA is a great school. There is not much that is taught at Hawk that isn't taught at NESA. The important thing is that people who want to operate on the ground are getting the important training that we need.

Good luck, and enjoy being a cadet, I had more fun as a cadet than I could ever ask for again.

[Nathan]

The Hawk defenders can say whatever they want about how the school had changed every year.

But the case remains that we continue to see these attitudes from Hawk graduates. The same attitudes I saw as a cadet, and the same attitudes that have been around since before my time.

Stanford once explained to me that Hawk was not so much a SAR school as a leadership school, which I can accept. I can also accept that it puts out some sharp graduates.

But if it's trying to teach leadership, and we're still dealing with enough attitude problems to keep the stereotype alive, I question whether the school remembers that most of its students are younger teenagers, and is marketing the lessons in an appropriate way for that group. There are many great leadership activities which, despite putting out some bad apples of their own, do not have a reputation for it.

If Hawk really is changing, they either aren't changing enough, or changing the wrong things.

Perhaps they should consider a higher age or grade limitation if they want to continue teaching this way. Surely it can't be either their intention or have escaped their notice that we see the same problems year after year...

[SarDragon]

FYI, the 'tude was around when I was a cadet. I was in NJ wing, and the Hawk grads were drinking the Kool-Aid back then, even before that phrase was even invented.

[A.Member]

All a matter of perspective but by any of my measures, no.

Taking the question at face value, if by "hardest" you mean most physically demanding, no.   This national activity easily takes that honor:
http://ncsas.com/index.cfm/advanced_pararescue_orientation_course?show=career_fair&careerFairID=4

If a cadet wants to test him/herself that's the place to be. 

[sarmed1]

...As for me, I would be thrilled if anyone on HMRS staff would return an email...

fire away...... I can imediately answer questions medic related....other quetions may take a day or two

mk

[FW]

The Hawk defenders can say whatever they want about how the school had changed every year.

But the case remains that we continue to see these attitudes from Hawk graduates. The same attitudes I saw as a cadet, and the same attitudes that have been around since before my time.

Stanford once explained to me that Hawk was not so much a SAR school as a leadership school, which I can accept. I can also accept that it puts out some sharp graduates.

Attitudes from cadets attending HMRS are not that different from those attending NBB or PJOC.  Cadets are proud of their accomplishments and like to brag.  And, since HMRS is over 55 years old, there is a certain history that is ingrained into the students.  Such is the world we live in. 

Yes, the extra "bling" is not uniform outside the school. It is the squadron commander's responsibility to enforce the regulations.  Cadets need to understand boundaries. 

HMRS training is vigorous, so is PJOC, NESA and, NBB.  It's also fun and rewarding.  I have grown fond of the "tude"  for all these NCSA's.  However, they need to be tempered with reality when home....

[Nathan]

Attitudes from cadets attending HMRS are not that different from those attending NBB or PJOC.  Cadets are proud of their accomplishments and like to brag.  And, since HMRS is over 55 years old, there is a certain history that is ingrained into the students.  Such is the world we live in.

This has not been my experience. The only other school that I've seen get a bad rap for its graduate attitudes has been the Honor Guard Academy, and it definitely hasn't been to the level of Hawk.

Like I said, no one doubts that NBB, PJOC, and COS put out elitists of their own. But in my own experience both in the cadet program and with many years on cadet forums, the number of elitists that create these issues from other schools is insignificant when compared to Hawk.

For one, the other schools that are "elite" at the very least are actually selective about who attends. Both PJOC and COS accept only a fraction of those that apply. NBB used to be the same way, but we can also recognize that the vast majority of elitist-based attitude that comes from NBB comes from the beret. The cadets from the activity assume that they're special because they have a special hat, while the Hawk people assume they need a special hat because they're special.

Being proud of your school is one thing. Feeling as if the entire world is against you and is jealous of how awesome you are for having completed the course is another. People who are proud simply defend their school when under attack. Fanatics create threads asking people to attack their school so they can defend it. Every year, especially online, this trend is seemingly a signature of Hawk grads.

I have nothing against the school, I promise. But there comes a point when the reputation for putting out bad attitudes cannot simply be attributed to the random bad apples that slip through the cracks anymore. No one is saying Hawk is a bad school. But something about their training methods are either allowing or producing these attitudes, and when they come back home with the cadet, I think we have every right to ask Hawk to make sure the 'tude doesn't leave the mountain. So far, they seem to have failed in accomplishing this.

[FW]

Nathan, I don't want to be an apologist for Hawk (I can't believe I'm actually responding to his thread  ) however, as I said before, there is a certain "aura" after 55 years of continuous operation which is ingrained in the students.  I have participated and visited the school many times in the last 40 years and have seen a marked improvement in the way things are run.  It has an active "alumni" association and many non-CAP supporters which tend to boost the aura of the school.  There is no active teaching of superiority I've ever witnessed (at least in the last 15 years).  It's just that going to HMRS has become "the" school to go to for many seniors and cadets.
 
If it was the really the problem you make it to be, HMRS would have been closed down a long time ago. (The land would make a great resort...)

From my experience,  the "tude" you are referring to doesn't exist today.  At least, not in this century...

[Eclipse]

From my experience,  the "tude" you are referring to doesn't exist today.  At least, not in this century...

The 'tude fully exists, both for HMRS and NBB.

Something is failing - maybe the attitude at the schools, maybe there isn't enough "real" adult leadership (i.e. I know plenty of adults who act like children
when they do CAP sleepover activities), maybe it is the ambiguous uniform regs that allow C/SrA's to argue with their unit CC's about tabs, etc., maybe we simply don't teach CAP's real place in the world enough at the squadron level, which allows the 'tudes to grow when in the light of day.

But something is broken, and has been for a long time.

[FW]

Eclipse, I think you are on to something.  If squadron commanders are still dealing with 100's of cadets around the country each year with the  "tude", then something is broken.  In the old days, we would have a National Cadet Programs committee that could deal with such issues.  Maybe it's time to reconstitute it?

[WESSginger]

From my experience,  the "tude" you are referring to doesn't exist today.  At least, not in this century...

The 'tude fully exists, both for HMRS and NBB.

Something is failing - maybe the attitude at the schools, maybe there isn't enough "real" adult leadership (i.e. I know plenty of adults who act like children
when they do CAP sleepover activities), maybe it is the ambiguous uniform regs that allow C/SrA's to argue with their unit CC's about tabs, etc., maybe we simply don't teach CAP's real place in the world enough at the squadron level, which allows the 'tudes to grow when in the light of day.
But something is broken, and has been for a long time.

Sir,
The problem at NBB is not the adults leadership. Col peace, Col Aye, and others are great leaders. The problem is cadets. Last year was one of the worst year for many reasons. But one if the big reasons was cadets making dumb choices. The same goes for the attitude. I know plenty of cadets that went that had no attitude at all. But then I run into some cadets that take the attitude to the extreme and make NBB look terrible. So like I said before we cadets seam to be the problem not the senior leadership.

[NIN]

Sorry I'm late to the party, lads. I was working on this before lunch and got distracted by this darn thing called work...

I went to the Hawk Winter school as a senior 9 years ago (that adventure was detailed in the CadetStuff.org articles "How I Got The Thousand Yard Stare" and "How I Got The Thousand Yard Stare Pt2"). 

Honestly, I thought the training was pretty good and it was a challenging course, but nobody at the school was saying 'Hey, go back to your wings and tell everybody how great you are and how they all suck!' or anything like that.

See, up to that point, I'd participated in CAP ES pretty actively, mostly as ground team, and was a current and active GTL.  As a cadet, I'd gone to two different "Ranger Schools" in MI Wing (both the "Group XII Ranger" program at Drummond Island, and the Group III program run out of Selfridge ANGB by members of the USAFR's 305th AARSQ), so I've seen first-hand at least three different modes of "ranger" training.

I can admit that as a cadet I had some "ranger attitude" that was not only wholly unwarranted, but was, in retrospect, completely comical. I'm surprised, 25+ years later, that I didn't get my membership card handed to me with a "there's the door, don't let it hit you on the way out"... (I always said as a unit commander: "If I had myself as a cadet in my squadron, I'd have to kick my own [fourth point of contact]"..teee heeee)

Fastforward to the latter decade of the 20th century and the first of the new century, and I still see these same kinds of attitudes out of places like Hawk Mtn, Blue Beret, various wing "ranger" schools, Honor Guard Academy, to a lesser extent NESA, etc.   

Sometimes its attitude. 

Sometimes its misplaced elitism.

Other times its just the continual and somewhat flagrant flaunting of things like the rules surrounding uniform wear and all the bling-bling (scarfs, hats, berets, patches, St. Albans crosses, pistol belts, bloused jump boots, cords, pens, t-shirts, ranger tabs, whistles, little tiny frogs, etc, etc, etc)

(yes, yes, over the years these things have gone from
- "totally unauthorized anywhere" to
- "these things are not authorized outside of the bounds of this [group/wing/activity], so don't wear it..*nudge* *nudge*" to
- "well, its kinda/sorta authorized, since we have a photo of the guy who was the National Commander 10 years ago wearing one of our [insert bling-bling item here]" to
- "its authorized if your wing commander says so, or maybe not, we're not sure and neither is anybody else" to
- "I think the NB/NEC said it was OK.. at least, thats what I heard.." to
- "The NB said it was OK, and I have a copy of the minutes from that NB meeting that I printed off the Internet in my pocket for just such an emergency, even if they never bothered to update the reg or issue an ICL" to
- "not only is it ok, but you can't tell me to take it off.. nah-nah!"
and all manner of wear combos in between.)

As a unit commander, I have never contemplated as much violence against the personage of a cadet as I have when some chowderhead rather disrespectfully suggests that I pack sand in my nether regions before he'll take off his [orange hat/ascot/whistle/honor guard toe taps/beret/st albans cross/bloused jump boots/whatever]. It did, however, warm the cockles of my heart when I could effect a swift and massive attitude change just by sliding a CAPF 2B with their name on it across the table..

But I digress..

Of course, the "I was taught this at [insert activity name here] so therefore I am the ultimate authority on this subject.." kinds of thought processes are frequently related to the aforementioned arrogance/elitism issues.

(I always remember the cadet who tried to tell me that since he'd been to EAA two years prior, the way he was marshalling aircraft on the SAREX ramp was 100% correct and "the way its supposed to be done." He was utterly immune to suggestions that there was a way to do it that was different from his way, you know, like the way the aircrew would be expecting to be marhaled in.  I stepped back, said "OK, there, troop, you've got it. Show me what you've got!" and watched him marshal in an airplane. The aircrew got out and said "Kid, where the hell did you learn how to marshal aircraft?" and the cadet very proudly said "EAA Oshkosh Blue Beret, SIR!" The pilot, the Wing DO as I recall, says "If you marshal a plane like again, I'll make it my mission in life to ensure that all you do is Mission Radio Operator forever, get my meaning?"  I pulled the cadet aside after watching him deflate considerably, and had to explain to him that while I was sure that his training was all high-speed, low-drag and he learned a lot, got a ton of practice doing it, sweated his butt off on the ramp, etc, etc, just cuz it was at Oshkosh did not mean that it was the right way to do it with CAP aircrews at a mission base.)

More to the point, what I've seen is that each of these programs has their good points and bad points, but almost universally, what they do is breed a level of "I'm better than you cuz I've been to [activity/course/school] and you haven't" among cadets. 

This is not endemic to just Hawk Mtn, as I've said.  The Hawk Mtn people, when I was there, and the people I've talked to over the years, always emphasize how graduates and attendees are ambassadors to the program and are reminded of such repeatedly.  But somehow, folks get away from the flagpole and out in the rest of the world and they put on a bozo wig and a funny nose and start clowning around. (again: been there, done that, got a t-shirt for it, even stole the "I'm a ranger school clown!" coffee mug from a guy. Guilty of being an over-exuberant teenager.. yep) 

Humor me for a minute:

If Blue Beret, Hawk Mtn, the Honor Guard Academy, etc, all stopped handing out "bling-bling" for the uniform and went to a 100% "whats in your head is what you take away" model, do you think the attendance/participation/interest at these schools would a) increase, or b) decrease?

And, conversely, if all the bling-bling went away, and people still went to these courses but then returned to their units with specialized knowledge and nothing more than a (black or brown) t-shirt that they could wear under their BDU shirt and nothing more outward than that, do you think all the breast-beating and generalized chest-thumping would a) increase or b) decrease.

Its been my experience that in both of these instances, b) is likely the outcome.

People, and especially cadets teenagers want to be different, not all the same, from their peers, even in a nominally "uniform" environment like CAP.

I think, in some ways, its like a carrot and stick approach. 

A C/Amn might aspire to become a C/MSgt because he'll have "more fruit salad" than others. (the "I get more leadership opportunities that way" is a distant second for most)
C/SSgt Snuffy might decide to get into ES because then she'll have this cool GT badge on her uniform. 
Or C/TSgt Bagodonuts is motivated to get his Mitchell becuase then he can wear the officer's hat with his blues.

Now, are there other reasons/motivations for these people to do these things? Yeah, absolutely. And those "win" all the time, too.

And thats cool.  Its within the framework of the regulations and good taste.

A GT badge, thats right there in 39-1, along with the wheel hat.  Much as I'm not a fan of the wheel hat, I can still go with it.  Might not be too thrilled if C/CMSgt Shirttuck only wants to become a C/2Lt because of the hat and shoulder marks, but hey, that happens.

I've had cadets come in to see me to sign off on their NCSA applications, and I usually sit them down and ask them why they're applying to a specific NCSA.

Some say "Well, sir, I want to go to the AETCFC becuase I'm really interested in what it takes to become a fighter pilot.." (nice, thanks, good answer!)
or "I think engineering is really cool, so I wanna go to that Engineering Academy!" (alright, little simplistic but not bad)
or "I want to go to COS to advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation.." (*thump* as I pass out on the floor from joy). 

But then I get answers like:

"Well, sir, I heard that Hawk Mountain is really cool, and they do really awesome-cool stuff there-" (OK, you're selling me...) "-and I wanna get a ranger tab like c/2LT Bufftuck." (aww, man, you ruined it..)
or
"Sir, I want to go to Honor Guard Academy because I think I like the honor of the whole thing and I want to be filled with honor and be taught honor in the most honorable way, and display honor at all possible opportunities, especially when I can bring honor to myself and CAP.. and you know, I want those cool shoe taps, cuz they just scream 'honor' to me.." (hmmm, looks like I need to give C/TSgt Dinglebarry a thesarus before his next promotion review board)
or
Cadet: "C/Capt Birdpoo told me that if I go to NBB, I get a cool beret."
Me: "Is that the only reason you want to go to Oshkosh, cadet?"
Cadet: "Why, sir? Are there other reasons?"
Me: [repeatedly striking head against file cabinet]

I'm serious: I very seldom had a cadet say "I want to go to Hawk Moutain so I can learn really cool ES stuff and bring that knowledge back to the unit so we can make our super-awesome ground team that much better, sir!"
or
"I want to be the next NCOIC of the unit honor guard, so I want to go to honor guard academy to get that knowledge."

No, they go because they want to come back with some piece of bling-bling that they have that their peers don't have.

Call me crazy, but it just seems to me that they're not going there for the development benefit...

[tsrup]

^^^Simply amazing NIN

I think the nail has been driven through concrete.

[NIN]

^^^Simply amazing NIN

I think the nail has been driven through concrete.

Yeah, I have a tendency to toss a B61 when a hand grenade will do.

BTW, on re-reading, I need to be clear:  each of the  programs I may have listed themselves do not specifically promote, engender or encourage their participants and graduates to act like bunionheads.  I think Hawk Mtn, EAA, HGA, etc are all excellent programs in their own right for what they do. 

[davidsinn]

Yeah, I have a tendency to toss a B61 when a hand grenade will do.

Anything worth doing, is worth over doing...

[Hill CAP]

I don't have a problem with Hawk Mountain or the training that the site provides.

I have had several members of my home unit come back from Hawk and it wasn't about the Tab or the Beret that WV used to issue for Hawk or the belt it was the fact that they had knowledge that they used to help train other members of the ground team. It was never about me me me or well I'm better then you.

I have a problem with the cadet or senior who comes back calls them selves a Ranger when nothing CAP does comes close to earning the title of Ranger ( I am saying this as I look at my fiance's brothers Ranger Tab from his Army Days) or the I'm better then you attitude but doesn't share what they learned with their unit.

I know a Region Commander who wears a CAP Ranger strip. He doesn't flaunt the fact that he's been there and has my up most respect and I'd follow him in the feild anyday.

As NiN said its not just Hawk. I earned the NHGA Patch as have some other members of my wing. 98% of us that have earned it opt not to wear it but are actively involved in training a Wing Honor Guard.

If it was up to me CAP would only need 3 patches maybe 4 but thats a different thread which won't be started as it would be beating a dead horse.

[JoeTomasone]

I have no problem with Hawk's training or dedication to its program.   Heck, I don't even mind a little swagger from attendees.

What I do have a problem with is their insistence that CAPM 39-1 doesn't apply to the program.

[Eclipse]

Swagger among peers can be fun for everyone and an incentive to get off your butt and do something - peers as in
people who have had relatively equal experience and opportunity within the organization.

Among non-peers, it can be the most counterproductive tool in your kit - lording an experience or skill over others who haven't even
had the chance to try or never will.  (i.e. two cadet majors who took different paths in CAP comparing bling or arguing NESA vs. HMRS
is different from a cadet major showing off to a bunch of SrA's, or insinuating he is somehow "better" than them).

But one lesson that escapes many of our unit commanders and other leaders is how important the correction of in appropriate
swagger is in terms of establishing ones place in the universe, and how harmful it can be to all involved to allow inappropriate swagger
to continue - whether as the example or the member with an inflated ego.

If we just told more people to "knock it off", we'd have less home unit issues.

[PaulR]

I just dont understand why you little [censored]s have to argue over petty crap (like how hard it is).C/CMSgt. William Adams CAP

Cadet Adams,

Part of being an NCO(even a cadet version) is discretion.  Your tone is overstepping some serious boundaries and I suggest you tone it down a notch.  There is nothing wrong with having a bit of pride in your accomplishments; however, name calling is not only disrespectful, but it also draws attention away from the meaning you are trying to get across.  It is also unbecoming of an NCO.