Hawk Mt. Staff Training is it the hardest in CAP?

[Eclipse]

You know it's kinda sad. I just posted a question with the intent of finding a program to challenge me a little more, but most of you want to argue with each other just like most other threads.

That's being somewhat simplistic.

I heard that Hawk Mt. is the hardest staff training program in all of CAP and no other school trains their staff as much. Is this true?

What you posted appeared to be more of a troll than a question.  When you join a forum you should spend time reading the messages first and try using the search function to see if a given topic is already being discussed, which in this case it has been, in a contentious way, for years.

[CAPcadet902]

Well doesn't NESA just require a staff application with no formal training?

[PA Guy]

I heard that Hawk Mt. is the hardest staff training program in all of CAP and no other school trains their staff as much. Is this true?

See the quote above of your original post wanting to know if HMRS staff training was the biggest and baddest around.  Now you say what you really wanted were other programs in CAP that might be just as or more challenging.  So here are a couple of suggestions you might consider, PJOC, Cadet Survival School, Combat Controllers Course or maybe the Civil Engineering Fam Course.  Some of these are NCSAs and some are run by Wings.  Check them out and see if they meet your needs.

[JayT]

Thats not a staff training course number one. As much as I respect Spaatz cadets, It signifies the completion of the cadet program...Not that big of a deal to me. Its mainly a lot of testing on leadership. And while thats deffinatly important, I dont think you can get it all from reading a book and taking long and tedious tests. Dont get me wrong for a second time, Im not saying its easy, im not saying Ranger staff is harder or easier. Spaatz and Ranger Staff training are two completly different things.

Looking back at my time as a Cadet, my biggest regret is not advancing past C/2d Lt. Now that I do emergency work for a living, I realize that the experiences and schooling I would of needed to become a C/Col is leaps and bounds beyond what I learned doing GTM stuff, and would have been much more useful in my current job then camping.

[davidsinn]

Well doesn't NESA just require a staff application with no formal training?

You have to have the ES qual before you can teach it. What is so special about hawk anyway? I look at the requirements and see them taking 3 weeks and you don't even end up with a useful qual at the end.

[Eclipse]

Looking back at my time as a Cadet, my biggest regret is not advancing past C/2d Lt. Now that I do emergency work for a living, I realize that the experiences and schooling I would of needed to become a C/Col is leaps and bounds beyond what I learned doing GTM stuff, and would have been much more useful in my current job then camping.

Yep - one of the thing that escapes young people by design is the unique opportunities afforded to them while they are still young, and adults in many cases are to blame.

CAP members can be ES operators their entire lives (literally), but only get a small window for the cadet program and all it can provide.
Lifetime Chiefs, 13 year old cadets who won't do anything but hunt ELT's, etc., or those who get so ensconced in non-core activities like CAC, activity staff, etc., are being done a disservice by their leaders if they are not pushed to participate in the whole program.

HMRS, NESA, CSS, whatever, are supposed to be extracurricular to the actual program, not the focus.

[capes]

Well doesn't NESA just require a staff application with no formal training?

Not true.  (At least when I staffed NESA).

And please, can we stop comparing NESA and Hawk???  Two very different activities with different focus.  The focus of GSAR at NESA is teach students the skills necessary to obtain ratings through the completion of the tasks listed in the task guide.  You know, this little thing called the national standard.  The couple years I was there, they made it a point that NESA doesn't make you an expert super whatever; that it should be simply the start of continuous training.

The focus of Hawk is, as near as I can tell, to cause "super rangers" to come out onto CAPTALK.   

[Eclipse]

I personally consider NESA our national training center and HMRS an adventure camp.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I personally consider NESA our national training center and HMRS an adventure camp.

^ I've seen people come back from NESA trained and ready to go on missions.

I've also seen cadets come from Hawk starting WW3 to wear their orange boot laces, pink belts, and ranger patches.

[Rodriguez]

You know it's kinda sad. I just posted a question with the intent of finding a program to challenge me a little more, but most of you want to argue with each other just like most other threads.

If you want to know more contact me, Ill tell you every detail of the Staff training to the best of my abilities.

[Rodriguez]

I personally consider NESA our national training center and HMRS an adventure camp.

^ I've seen people come back from NESA trained and ready to go on missions.

I've also seen cadets come from Hawk starting WW3 to wear their orange boot laces, pink belts, and ranger patches.

Ive also seen cadets comeback from NESA under-trained and under-motivated, and then expect to teach my cadets at an FTX. Not gonna happen. Not because they went to NESA, but because they don't know what there talking about or they don't teach it well. (Example: Cadets fall asleep during their class)

"Orange laces" don't exist at HAWK, or anywhere in the ranger program. "Pink belts" cant see why you would wanna wear that. And my favorite... "Ranger patches" which are perfectly allowed on CAP uniform, end of story. You can come rip mine off. (I would like to mention that the only Ranger related items I wear, are my patches.)

[Spike]

^ I believe he meant "ranger tabs"..... i.e. "Ranger 3rd Class" etc.

[Майор Хаткевич]

^ I believe he meant "ranger tabs"..... i.e. "Ranger 3rd Class" etc.

Actually I meant the patch, from an incident circa 2006, when a cadet wore it in place of the then recently removed wing patch. We aren't PAWGers either, so it's non-kosher.

And Rodriguez, were the cadets who wanted to teach signed off as actual SETs? I wouldn't let anyone teach a new batch of people after only doing the training themselves. But I definitely wouldn't let a Hawker get close to the training, as chances are, they didn't do half the tasks, and got more talking points than helpful tips out of it..

The comment about "Orange laces and pink belts" was tongue in cheek, but is really not that far off from orange ascots, white laces, pistol belts, and whistles.

[DC]

There are a wide range of activities in CAP that can challenge you, and in different ways.

You want a physical challenge? Look at Hawk Mountain or PJOC.

Academic/mental challenge? Cadet Officer School, SUPTFC (MS, anyway. I can't speak for TX), and many others.

Trying to generalize one program as 'the hardest' is an exercise in futility, and a waste of time and effort. Think about where you want to go in life, what you are interested in, and what you can do to get you there, rather than waste your time pursuing another person's idea of 'the best' or 'the hardest' activity in CAP.

[SJFedor]

Well doesn't NESA just require a staff application with no formal training?

Most (read: all) NESA staff are either experienced operators and/or, more often, former NESA graduates.

[sarmed1]

Since we are going down that route I'll chime in a few points:
to save your the search time, as I have posted before there are two distinct though not always clearly defined programs at HMRS
#1 is The ES and Ranger training programs
#2 is basically an excercise in leadership development (read in cadet programs)
  The staff training program is primarily a function of #2, but it occasionally leads to instuctors for #1

I'll copy SJFedor almost word for word on this one:
Most (read: all) NESA HMRS (senior) staff are either experienced operators and/or, more often, former NESA HMRS graduates.   (If you would like examples I will be more than happy to run down the list of  qualifications of some of the instructors I know personally; besides the CAP quals and experience)

Cadet staff are primarily there to facilitate the leadership excercise portion of the program and to manage the cadet participants daily living portion of the school....here's the latrine, eat dinner, its formation time etc etc.

Regardless of what program you come from I wouldnt let just anyone teach (even if they are SET)  Not everyone can teach, especially when CAP doesnt have a instructor program anymore when it comes to ES skills  and not everyone is good at teaching all aspects:  I know some instructors that are great at teacing practical skills but couldnt get the point across in the classroom as it related to background, theory etc etc.

mk

[Eclipse]

For clarification, because I see this all the time.

SET's do not teach.

They certify that someone has properly demonstrated a skill.

Many good instructors are also SETs, but not all SETs are good instructors.  For most CAP skills you could take a literate person
off the street and they could follow the directions and properly tell if the points were met.  The nuance of technique and best practice
is where being a good instructor makes you a better SET.

Some wings also have policies which prohibit being signed off by the same person who instructed you.

[Rodriguez]

^ I believe he meant "ranger tabs"..... i.e. "Ranger 3rd Class" etc.

Actually I meant the patch, from an incident circa 2006, when a cadet wore it in place of the then recently removed wing patch. We aren't PAWGers either, so it's non-kosher.

And Rodriguez, were the cadets who wanted to teach signed off as actual SETs? I wouldn't let anyone teach a new batch of people after only doing the training themselves. But I definitely wouldn't let a Hawker get close to the training, as chances are, they didn't do half the tasks, and got more talking points than helpful tips out of it..

The comment about "Orange laces and pink belts" was tongue in cheek, but is really not that far off from orange ascots, white laces, pistol belts, and whistles.

I wear my Florida Search and Rescue patch in place of my wing patch because its allowed in Florida Wing, Since early 2009. If it wasnt allowed I wouldnt, as should all Rangers. If I purposley broke the regs, It wouldnt help the stereotype we have. And if I catch Rangers that break the regs I get on them just as any of you would, it makes me and the other Rangers who follow regs look bad.

As for SET's, yes they were. They were either not engaging the students or they were teaching them the completly wrong information. Im not saying just because you went to NESA im not gonna let you teach. But just becasue Ive been to HAWK, your not gonna let me teach? Thats wrong. Im a Ranger yes but I also hold the equivalent Ground Team qualification. I can teach everything on it, and you know what I teach them both the same way. The right way is the right way, it dosnt matter whos teaching it.

And I think its time to put this myth to bed. Rangers no longer wear white laces. In nearly 4 years of being in the Ranger program ive never seen that, not here in Florida and not in Pennsylvania. As for the parade items (I.E. Scarves, whistles, belts) I dont wear mine unless im at HAWK or at a FLorida Ranger activity, or when im doing a presentation on HAWK, which I do maybe...once a year to cadets who are thinking of applying. Any Ranger who wears the parade items at squadron meetings or anywhere outside of the Ranger program is wrong simple as that.

[Star-Maker]

Why would you edit out the specific part of my quote that says "Yes, its the hardest thing I HAVE done in CAP. I said that specificaly so that, someone would not post a comment like yours. You clearly mis understood me, Or maybe you didnt and you intentionaly left out the personal perspective that was mentioned.

The OP asked whether the Ranger staff training was the hardest in CAP.  The way you worded your answer, it sounded like you were using the fact that it was the hardest thing you had done to extrapolate to it being the hardest in CAP (because you gave a yes/no answer to their question), but warning the OP that they shouldn't go around saying so because it sounds snotty.  If that wasn't what you meant, then I did misunderstand you, and apologize.

[Rodriguez]

Why would you edit out the specific part of my quote that says "Yes, its the hardest thing I HAVE done in CAP. I said that specificaly so that, someone would not post a comment like yours. You clearly mis understood me, Or maybe you didnt and you intentionaly left out the personal perspective that was mentioned.

The OP asked whether the Ranger staff training was the hardest in CAP.  The way you worded your answer, it sounded like you were using the fact that it was the hardest thing you had done to extrapolate to it being the hardest in CAP (because you gave a yes/no answer to their question), but warning the OP that they shouldn't go around saying so because it sounds snotty.  If that wasn't what you meant, then I did misunderstand you, and apologize.

Well thank you for at least being honest and admiting that you may have misunderstood me, thats more than can be said of some others on here.

Let me simplify it, Ranger Staff training is the hardest thing I have done in CAP. I think its wrong if any Ranger goes around saying its the hardest thing in CAP. However I do think its up there for the reasons I stated in my other posts. No, I cannot say its the hardest because I havent done everything. Im not biased to the Rangers its just what I really enjoy doing.