CAP Talk

I have read a new supplement from National HQ about encampment, and frankly, its going to turn encampment into summer camp. It says, among other things, cadets will get eight hours of sleep and will be called students. On my basic, we were called cadets and we got 6-7 hours of sleep (usually 6). We were woken up with whistle, yelling, and banging on our lockers. Heck, when I went to Airman Leadership School, we were woken up with air horns! Is it just me, or are we (CAP) getting soft?

It is highly likely those activities you attended before were breaking existing regs, common sense, or both.

The document you are referring to is not "supplement" it is the new encampment guide and cadet protection policies.

for the most part, little has changed, however like many things in CAP, what appears to be common sense isn't, and
it has to be written in big bright letters on the wall before people will comply.

CAP is not BMT, and that's not how encampments and similar activities are supposed to be run.

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 17, 2013, 05:04:49 PM
I have read a new supplement from National HQ about encampment, and frankly, its going to turn encampment into summer camp. It says, among other things, cadets will get eight hours of sleep and will be called students. On my basic, we were called cadets and we got 6-7 hours of sleep (usually 6). We were woken up with whistle, yelling, and banging on our lockers. Heck, when I went to Airman Leadership School, we were woken up with air horns! Is it just me, or are we (CAP) getting soft?

We ran a hybrid of the new and old curriculum, and I can tell the cadets were stressed just right this year when compared to in the past.

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 17, 2013, 05:04:49 PM
I have read a new supplement from National HQ about encampment, and frankly, its going to turn encampment into summer camp. It says, among other things, cadets will get eight hours of sleep and will be called students. On my basic, we were called cadets and we got 6-7 hours of sleep (usually 6). We were woken up with whistle, yelling, and banging on our lockers. Heck, when I went to Airman Leadership School, we were woken up with air horns! Is it just me, or are we (CAP) getting soft?

When I was at USAF BMTS we got 8 hours of sleep (lights out at 2200 and revile at 0600) broken only for fire alarms (not drills) and Dorm Guard duty (usually only an hour long).

We were woken up by bugle call on the PA.

There is no reason.....NO REASON for cadet not given the opportunity to het 8 hours of sleep.
Everyone is a cadet.......encampment attendees (as opposed to staff) are called students,  not "basics", "Smacks", "Plebes", "Doolies", "Nuebs" or any thing that could be considered derogatory.

This is exactly what the USAF does at BMTS.....everyone is a "recruit" until they graduate (or just before).

This is not because CAP is getting soft.  This is because too many in CAP think encampment is supposed to be Full Metal Jacket......and that is just BS for a cadet program.

I don't think cadets should be called those names. They are offensive. My problem is that cadets at my encampment were saying that it was to easy and almost boring! I think that encampment should be boot camp-like, since we are USAF Auxilary, just not with stuff like dropping cadets for push-ups, or cursing, or things of that nature.

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 17, 2013, 06:44:26 PMI think that encampment should be boot camp-like, since we are USAF Auxilary,

That isn't, and has not been, the intention of an encampment for recent memory.

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 17, 2013, 06:44:26 PM
just not with stuff like dropping cadets for push-ups, or cursing, or things of that nature.

Neither is allowed at encampments or anywhere in CAP, nor has it been in recent memory.

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 17, 2013, 06:44:26 PM
I don't think cadets should be called those names. They are offensive. My problem is that cadets at my encampment were saying that it was to easy and almost boring! I think that encampment should be boot camp-like, since we are USAF Auxilary, just not with stuff like dropping cadets for push-ups, or cursing, or things of that nature.

a.  It is not boot camp.  b. We would like to do those things too.....but we don't have the time and supervision to make sure that they don't cross the line....and too often in the many years we have been doing this....people are always crossing the line. C.  Have you been to USAF basic training.....in '86 they did not drop us and do push ups.....I understand now that they do more of this....but it is not like Full Metal Jacket.....we certainly did not have TI's running around yelling at us to wake up.....they had a perfectly good PA system for that.

Too easy is better IMHO then too hard.  If you want hard core yelling....well you can always join the service or go to the academies and they will yell at you all that you want.  No need to be doing the Gunny Hardman on 12 year olds.

Cadet,

To help you with this, answer this question.

"What is the role and mission of an encampment?"

And I'll give you a hint, it is >not< "Basic Cadet Training", since that has already happened at the unit to earn the Curry.

Everything else flows from that question.

As someone who went to CAP encampment as a cadet in the late-80s, Air Force basic training in the mid-90s and Air Force officer school in the early-2000s, I can tell you that CAP encampment is not meant to be (and it shouldn't be) like basic training. Getting 8 hours of sleep doesn't make it a "wimpy" encampment; it provides cadets with sufficient amount of sleep so that they can have productive learning the following day.

While I believe that CAP standards should be taught and enforced in encampment and CAP in general, and in some instances the bar should be raised, I fail to see how yelling at 12 and 13 year old cadets can be conducive to their development in the Cadet Programs. I think that's just an excuse for some cadets in the staff (and possibly even senior members) to allow hazing in the name of "training".

CAP is NOT the U.S. Air Force. Basic Military Training is meant to forge a civilian into an Airman (or Soldier, Sailor, Marine, etc.) that will have to give up many of his/her civilian freedoms for the military life and may have to face combat and/or dangerous situations at some point in their military career. How does that relate to cadets in CAP?

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 17, 2013, 05:04:49 PM
I have read a new supplement from National HQ about encampment, and frankly, its going to turn encampment into summer camp. It says, among other things, cadets will get eight hours of sleep and will be called students. On my basic, we were called cadets and we got 6-7 hours of sleep (usually 6). We were woken up with whistle, yelling, and banging on our lockers. Heck, when I went to Airman Leadership School, we were woken up with air horns! Is it just me, or are we (CAP) getting soft?

My question: Why? What purpose does it serve? Encampment serves to reinforce what the cadet learns at his or her own unit about the function and organization and operation of CAP, and to better prepare him or her to take on leadership roles back at their home unit. It's NOT basic training, you're focusing on one aspect of it and trying to apply it to the whole thing. But again, what purpose does sleep-depriving these cadets and stressing them out at 0500 (or 0400 assuming Taps at 2200 and your 6 hours of sleep) with banging on lockers....which could potentially fall on cadets, those things are top heavy...serve?

Am I saying that hardcore stuff isn't fun? No, heck I've done it myself in the past when I was a cadet of a different uniform, but as I've grown I've learned to see the why behind it.

Sure it's done in the military, but less and less these days. The Marines tend to be a holdout but that goes moreso towards tradition, plus even with the military as a whole, it has a purpose: its designed to build up an instant response to a high stress situation.

"But sir, so are we! My cadets aren't moving fast enough, so by the end of the week we want them to move REALLY fast so we yell at them in the morning to build up this instant response!" Yes but you're forgetting one key element, the military has a practical aspect of this as well: combat. Their objective is to preserve that instant response mindset during the heat of combat. Our cadets aren't going into battle, theirs is more a leadership theory objective, building better youth, etc. etc. You still want to work towards instant response? Military drill. It's always built in to the very objectives of it in my 13 years I've been a student of it.

Stop watching FMJ and think about the why cadet, please.

Texas Cadet,

Go read CAPR 52-16 chap 9-1 particularly para a & b. 

To ans. a specific question you have.  An adequate amount of sleep is needed so that cadets can be alert and absorb the training they should be receiving.  An inadequate sleep plan is a major leadership failure.  So, please tell me what training purpose sleep deprivation serves in a CAP encampment?

Come to think of it during Marine OCS we got about 8hrs/night except when we were in the field.

I am not involved in the cadet program so my thoughts can be taken with a grain of salt and dismissed if you so please.   That said, I think encampments should have the goal of challenging cadets both intellectually and physically. 

The intellectual can be courses on AE, radio usage, land navigation, air navigation, first aid, leadership, etc.   The physical can be done through hiking, a PT program, an obstacle course of appropriate difficulty for the age group, land navigation / orienteering course, etc. 

However being challenging does not mean providing less than the amount of sleep recommended by medical professionals for the age group. The Mayo Clinic's website recommends 9 – 11 hours for school age children.  Providing less than that is irresponsible and possibly opens CAP to legal liability should something go wrong and it is caused by fatigue. 

Neither should cadets be subject to any sort of verbal abuse whether it be name calling, being yelled or cursed at, being belittled in any manner, etc.   It sure takes a big man to treat a kid that way.  NOT!

Senior members who are leading encampments and engage in such behavior should be removed from the cadet program and even CAP altogether.  It speaks volumes about their mentality, integrity and personality.

Even most of the services basic training does not engage in sleep deprivation.  That is normally reserved for Special Forces training.  They might run you to death during the day but they normally ensure that you get plenty of rest as well. 

So if you are a cadet and want it rough, join the military and become SF.  If you are an adult and want to be a tough guy drill instructor, man up and do it for real with real men, not kids.

I prefer "in-flights" or "basics" to students, but ultimately it doesn't really matter, does it? Having a standard term is more important to me than insisting that it be my standard term.

I like the idea of allotting 8 uninterrupted hours for lights out. It ensures that we can fill the students' days with activities while also helping to prevent huge sleep deficits by the end of the week that can impair judgment and make people cranky.

It's entirely possible to have a challenging, high-intensity activity while also treating the participants with respect and making sure they get a good night's sleep. Those aren't mutually exclusive things.

Absolutely......It still allows us to stress them.....we just do it at 0600 instead of 0500....and we get them all into their beds and lights out at 2200 instead of 2300.

If your activity is sooooooo packed that you need those two hours....let me know what you are doing....because with only 8 hours of "required" events 3 hours for eating.......one whole hour of personal time......that 12 hours of activities and 8 hours of sleep....you still have four hour to do all the FMJ get your barracks squared away, pick them up put them down BS you want.

In most of the encampment threads I have read.....the staff complains about too much down time due to scheduling shifts.

Typical day.

0600 Reville
0615 PT
0700 Shower and change
0730 Chow
0830 First Formation
1230 Chow
1330 Second formation
1730 Chow
1830 Retreat
1900 Sgt's time
2100 Personal Time
2200 Lights Out

A full day with 8 hours of sleep, 8 program hours, 3 hours for chow, and 2 hours for training in the dorm.
No need for sleep depravation.

It is the staff that gets the shaft because they have to have meetings and getoghers and other BS after lights out.

The mistake many cadet staff (and some senior staff) make is believing that  stress equals intensity.  Lack of sleep certainly causes stress.  But stress does not equal intensity, therefore stress for the sake of stress is counterproductive.

Intensity is created by earning the trust of your followers, getting them to buy in to the end-of-encampment goals, and then challenging them to reach those goals.  The intensity grows out of a sense of not wanting to fail (initially) and if you're doing it right it then grows from a sense of wanting to kick the snot out if those standards and overachieve.

Just walking in the door...

1) They aren't at home (and for far too many the first time away from mom & dad overnight)

B) Their entire existence is regimented 24x7 for the entire activity, including what they can eat, when they sleep, what they wear, and what they have to do.

3) No caffeine, no energy drinks, no junk food, no video games, social media or any other outside connectivity.

D) The staff, as well as the majority of other cadets there are likely to be strangers.

5) There is, or soon will be, an academic expectation in order to actually get credit (it is now possible to "fail" encampment).

That's plenty for a 12-15 year old, especially when you consider the tissue-paper many young people are made of these days
thanks to well-meaning helicopter parents.

And then on top of this, some staffers, and far too many adult leaders, want to introduce artificial stress into the environment by yelling
themselves silly (literally) and hoarse.

If you wouldn't do it at your home squadron, it doesn't belong at encampment, since one of the goals of an encampment is supposed to model
proper behavior and technique for cadets and staff to then bring back to their home units.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 18, 2013, 02:30:12 AM
Just walking in the door...

1) They aren't at home (and for far too many the first time away from mom & dad overnight)

B) Their entire existence is regimented 24x7 for the entire activity, including what they can eat, when they sleep, what they wear, and what they have to do.

3) No caffeine, no energy drinks, no junk food, no video games, social media or any other outside connectivity.

D) The staff, as well as the majority of other cadets there are likely to be strangers.

5) There is, or soon will be, an academic expectation in order to actually get credit (it is now possible to "fail" encampment).

That's plenty for a 12-15 year old, especially when you consider the tissue-paper many young people are made of these days
thanks to well-meaning helicopter parents.

And then on top of this, some staffers, and far too many adult leaders, want to introduce artificial stress into the environment by yelling
themselves silly (literally) and hoarse.

If you wouldn't do it at your home squadron, it doesn't belong at encampment, since one of the goals of an encampment is supposed to model
proper behavior and technique for cadets and staff to then bring back to their home units.

Agree 100% with your last. Too much to deal with without some strange kid getting in your face and screaming himself hoarse. No place in CAP for that. Not anymore. Kids these days are so plugged in that unplugging them, sending them to a military base, regimenting their schedule, then turning them back to their parents can do a number on their head.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on July 17, 2013, 06:03:00 PMWe ran a hybrid of the new and old curriculum, and I can tell the cadets were stressed just right this year when compared to in the past.

This. Right here. There was nothing easy about it. If you're doing it right. You'll know it. The rest of that garbage has no place in the program. That's not what it's all about and that's a prime example of Stupid Staff that does not Get It.

Quote from: a2capt on July 18, 2013, 05:14:36 AM

Quote from: usafaux2004 on July 17, 2013, 06:03:00 PMWe ran a hybrid of the new and old curriculum, and I can tell the cadets were stressed just right this year when compared to in the past.

This. Right here. There was nothing easy about it. If you're doing it right. You'll know it. The rest of that garbage has no place in the program. That's not what it's all about and that's a prime example of Stupid Staff that does not Get It.

What are you doing up at this time of the morning?  You have a National Color Guard Competition to worry about in the morning.  What, 4 hours from now?  Shame, shame.

I can remember the old encampments back the late 50's, early 60 where we had to "drop and give them ten" for not knowing an answer to some question.  We might not have been the brights cadets but we certainly went home stronger cadets.  ;)

I find we have to rein our cadets in when they get back from encampment.

Everyone pretty much hit the high points here, but the one that bears repeating ad infinitum;

You don't have to yell cuss and hit (and sleep deprive) to make something challenging (and even stressful).
Those are crude tools with a specific and limited purpose, and that purpose is not consistent with the cadet program.


The only other point i'll make is that USAF calls all of its BMT attendees "trainee" until the coining ceremony after which they care called "Airman".  And "trainee" is often not particularly a term of endearment...

However USAF OTS calls its students "OT" (used to I think be "OC") and that is never spoken with disrespect.

Just call them cadets.  Their status is still the same, they are cadets.

Quote from: Garibaldi on July 18, 2013, 02:37:04 AM
Agree 100% with your last. Too much to deal with without some strange kid getting in your face and screaming himself hoarse. No place in CAP for that. Not anymore. Kids these days are so plugged in that unplugging them, sending them to a military base, regimenting their schedule, then turning them back to their parents can do a number on their head.

My god yes.

A cadet asked me two weeks ago what he could do to prepare for encampment. I said "Lay off the junk food, start drinking lots of water, and go to bed at 9pm."

for 20+ years, in more than just CAP,  I've seen this:
1) Cadets show up to summer training and the first night they go to bed there is beaucoup "fourth-point-of-contact grabbing" in the barracks, of the "who the hell is Chesty?" variety.  OK, fine, whatever, everybody is keyed up, used to being up till 4am playing CoD.. thats fine.  0545 is gonna come early, troop.  I can tell you "Go to sleep!" but it won't help much.

2) First morning they roll out for PT at 0545/0600, whatever time its still probably 4-6 hrs before they're normally vertical at home, and they look half-way like hammered crap.  Not paying attention, yawning, extremely tired, the whole deal.

3) Just after lunch, you have a room full of people who are used to getting 6-8 hrs of sleep on their own schedule, and probably lots of sugar/caffeine too, who had an abbreviated night on someone else's schedule (and by abbreviated I mean 6-8 hrs of "rest" that is probably only 3-4 hrs of "sleep") and no help staying awake with stimulants, are now vegetables in the (warm) classroom.  Heads lolling around, chins on chests, flight / platoon sergeants barking at people to get up and stand in the back of the room...

4) That second night, the barracks are much quieter 30 minutes after lights out, and the 3rd day is still some vegetative troopers with their eyes rolling back in their heads.   There are a few hardcore people who need another night of adjustment, but that 3rd night in the barracks is usually a lot of snoring people within 15 minutes of lights out, for sure. :)

And you don't need external sleep deprivation to do it. Just making them adhere to a schedule that is not of their own making/control is a pretty good stressor.

What I've meant to say this entire time is that 1, cadets should be called "cadets, and 2, 6-7 hours of sleep is enough to keep the body functioning for 7 days. Being tired is part of the training, because you may want to just fall asleep in formation, but by being disciplined, you stay awake. Same thing with personal time. You can go to bed early, but instead you prepare for the next day.

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 18, 2013, 04:00:21 PM
What I've meant to say this entire time is that 1, cadets should be called "cadets, and 2, 6-7 hours of sleep is enough to keep the body functioning for 7 days. Being tired is part of the training, because you may want to just fall asleep in formation, but by being disciplined, you stay awake. Same thing with personal time. You can go to bed early, but instead you prepare for the next day.

So you're just going to stick to this despite it being against regs, a bad idea, and counter to the experience of people with more encampments then you have years on this earth?
BTW - there's a difference between "functioning" and "thriving".  The military pushes recruits and servicemembers to their limits because it may well be necessary to live that way
to save your life or accomplish a mission, however anyone with the History channel, let alone real-world experience, knows the diminishing returns of people with a high-level of fatigue,
and pushing adolescents to the point where they are falling asleep standing up, could be considered abuse, especially since it is 100% unnecessary.

What, specifically, is your experience or training that indicates otherwise?

Okay, so maybe it is a bad idea. I still think cadets should be called "cadets. Also, where in the regs does it say it is against regs?

Sorry, let me clear that up. Where in the regs does it say that? I admit I was wrong in saying cadets should have 6-7 hours of sleep a night.

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on July 18, 2013, 11:26:33 AM
Just call them cadets.  Their status is still the same, they are cadets.

The problem is how to differentiate between Student Cadets and Staff Cadets......but yes Cadets/Trainee/student....are all acceptable terms to me.   We just need to pick one and standardize it.....and that the key.  Standardization keeps the term of address of becoming a derogatory term and becoming a negative training aid.

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 18, 2013, 04:24:58 PM
Sorry, let me clear that up. Where in the regs does it say that? I admit I was wrong in saying cadets should have 6-7 hours of sleep a night.

52-16 and the new encampment guide.

The guide is still in draft, but is being treated by most as already published, and most of the requirements were SOP for
encampments anyway, just not mandated until now.  This season is close to over, should be writ for FY2014.

Dislike on "students".  Why should we call them something different just because they are at an encampment.  Frankly, they aren't really students in any sense of the traditional use of that word. 

Quote from: RiverAux on July 18, 2013, 05:10:19 PM
Dislike on "students".  Why should we call them something different just because they are at an encampment.  Frankly, they aren't really students in any sense of the traditional use of that word.

The new curriculum kinda disagrees - the emphasis on hands-on AE and other academics clearly puts them into that category.  An encampment was always supposed to be, and
now will certainly be, more akin to tech school then BMT.

I'll agree that the pendulum has probably swung too far - students, cadre, etc., I think "cadets" or "basic cadets" (basics) worked OK, the problem is that unless you define the term
somewhere, you have activities that feel free to use silly/inappropriate terms for the cadets, terms I have still seen in use, very recently, by adult leaders.

Deleted

Quote from: RiverAux on July 18, 2013, 05:10:19 PM
Dislike on "students".  Why should we call them something different just because they are at an encampment.  Frankly, they aren't really students in any sense of the traditional use of that word.

Then what would suggest?  Doolie, Dweeb, NOOB, Smack, etc are right out....because they are too derogatory.
Recruit is not really applicable.
Trainee....okay maybe.
Student....okay maybe.
Basics.....okay maybe, but it is too close to C/AB
Cadet.....okay...but they are all cadets....the attendees and the staff....so how do you differentiate between talking to your cadet staff, your cadet attendees, and when you are talking to all your cadets?

Also....how are they not students in the "traditional" sense of the word?  A student is

Quote1 : SCHOLAR 1; especially : one who attends a school or college
2 : one who studies <a student of life>

Is that not what all our cadets are?  They are studying to become good leaders and citizens?

QuoteCadet.....okay...but they are all cadets....the attendees and the staff....so how do you differentiate between talking to your cadet staff, your cadet attendees, and when you are talking to all your cadets?

Are our people really that stupid, that they can't figure out who is being talked to based on the totality of verbal and nonverbal cues?
What if your flight sergeant is a C/MSgt Alex Smith.
And you have a C/SSgt John Smith first time in-flight cadet.

If someone is...   explaining in a loud fashion, "CADETS, FOR THE LAST TIME...  WIPE DOWN THE SINKS IN THE LATRINE"
Does anyone really think the flight sergeant thinks he's the one being addressed here?
Do you think the 'in-flight' cadets think the flight sergeant is being addressed (that's for him, not for me)
(flight sergeant should be the one talking, in this case, anyway)

Similarly, if the flight commander says "Sergeant Smith, let's move these troops out of here, we're almost late"
Do you think C/SSgt Smith (in-flight cadet) really thinks he is the one being addressed?



If this is an explanation for why we can't call cadets cadets, then it's the most insulting one offered so far.
Personally I find it offensive.

This is all about killing the derogatory nickname trend seen at a lot of encampments.

Cadets and Cadet Staff is just as easy as student and cadet staff.

Its an encampment, not a training school. Yes, there are educational aspects to encampment, but a lot of these are basically demonstrations.  Heck, a typical squadron meeting might be considered more like a school as there actually are tests involved every now and again.   

Now, if we want to make encampment more of a school, such as Regional or National Staff Colleges are, then I wouldn't have an objection to student. 

Okay.

"All cadets will be in bed by 2200 hours"  "No cadets are allowed in the staff areas"  "Cadets are not permitted to wear watches".

There we go....three statements written down or spoken......where are my verbal and non verbal clues that these statements only applies to the cadets who are not staff?

All Students/Trainees/Basics will be in bed by 2200
All Cadets will be in bed by 2300
All Staff will be in bed by 24000

I can build a Zen diagram if you want  :).

Terms and Definitions are important when writing regulations and communicating.  Now we can argue what is better.....Student, Trainee, Attendee, Recruit, Doolie, Learner, Encamper.....but I do think that we need to have a common universal single term to designate the cadets who are attending the encampment to set them apart from those who are on staff.

Also a note.....what about encampments with advanced training flights (second year attendees)?  Basic does not work for them.

Quote from: RiverAux on July 18, 2013, 08:17:35 PM
Cadets and Cadet Staff is just as easy as student and cadet staff.

For clarity.......lets try this.

CAP MEMBER....all seniors and all cadets on staff and off.
Senior Members....All senior on or off staff.
Cadet Members......all cadets on or off staff
Staff members......all seniors and all cadets on staff.
Cadet Staff.....only those cadets who are on staff and/or only those staff who are cadets
Students.....all members who are not on staff
Cadet Students...all non staff members who are cadets
Senior Students.....all non staff members who are senior members

See what I just did.....I have not expanded the terms used to not only apply to encampments but to anything we do...including NESA, HAWK Mountain, Blue Beret. etc.

QuoteIts an encampment, not a training school. Yes, there are educational aspects to encampment, but a lot of these are basically demonstrations.  Heck, a typical squadron meeting might be considered more like a school as there actually are tests involved every now and again.

Please define "encampment" and "training school".  I don't know how you are using them in this context.
A student is one who learns.....a trainee is one who learns.   The is some hair splitting between what the difference between training and education but really......

QuoteNow, if we want to make encampment more of a school, such as Regional or National Staff Colleges are, then I wouldn't have an objection to student.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 18, 2013, 08:28:35 PM
Okay.

"All cadets will be in bed by 2200 hours"  "No cadets are allowed in the staff areas"  "Cadets are not permitted to wear watches".

There we go....three statements written down or spoken......where are my verbal and non verbal clues that these statements only applies to the cadets who are not staff?

All Students/Trainees/Basics will be in bed by 2200
All Cadets will be in bed by 2300
All Staff will be in bed by 24000

I can build a Zen diagram if you want  :).

Terms and Definitions are important when writing regulations and communicating.  Now we can argue what is better.....Student, Trainee, Attendee, Recruit, Doolie, Learner, Encamper.....but I do think that we need to have a common universal single term to designate the cadets who are attending the encampment to set them apart from those who are on staff.

Also a note.....what about encampments with advanced training flights (second year attendees)?  Basic does not work for them.

Or we can just stop making blanket decrees from on high in a one size fits all fashion.

Quote from: RiverAux on July 18, 2013, 08:17:35 PMIts an encampment, not a training school. Yes, there are educational aspects to encampment, but a lot of these are basically demonstrations.  Heck, a typical squadron meeting might be considered more like a school as there actually are tests involved every now and again.   

Have you read the new curriculum that brings the new terminology?

All classes have to have an after test, and you have to score a cumulative 80% (as I recall) in order to graduate.  As I said before, it will now be possible
to fail encampment.

Quote from: coudano on July 18, 2013, 08:45:52 PMOr we can just stop making blanket decrees from on high in a one size fits all fashion.

It's called "standardization", every successful organization has it.

We can quibble about what the terms should be, but lack of standardization has been noted for years as a significant weakness in the
encampment program, especially when you have cadets going between wings.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 18, 2013, 08:46:52 PM



All classes have to have an after test

Not trying to call you out here at all, but i am looking at the new manual and I can't find what your saying above. Can you give me a page number or paragraph?

Quote from: coudano on July 18, 2013, 08:45:52 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 18, 2013, 08:28:35 PM
Okay.

"All cadets will be in bed by 2200 hours"  "No cadets are allowed in the staff areas"  "Cadets are not permitted to wear watches".

There we go....three statements written down or spoken......where are my verbal and non verbal clues that these statements only applies to the cadets who are not staff?

All Students/Trainees/Basics will be in bed by 2200
All Cadets will be in bed by 2300
All Staff will be in bed by 24000

I can build a Zen diagram if you want  :).

Terms and Definitions are important when writing regulations and communicating.  Now we can argue what is better.....Student, Trainee, Attendee, Recruit, Doolie, Learner, Encamper.....but I do think that we need to have a common universal single term to designate the cadets who are attending the encampment to set them apart from those who are on staff.

Also a note.....what about encampments with advanced training flights (second year attendees)?  Basic does not work for them.

Or we can just stop making blanket decrees from on high in a one size fits all fashion.

Hahaha.........LOL  Of course the counter to that is.....we would once you guys in the field would get your act together.  But there you go.  :)

Quote from: NCRblues on July 18, 2013, 09:04:29 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 18, 2013, 08:46:52 PM



All classes have to have an after test

Not trying to call you out here at all, but i am looking at the new manual and I can't find what your saying above. Can you give me a page number or paragraph?

See section 3.1 for graduation requirements (page 11 of Aug 2012 rev), and the lesson plans for where quizzes and similar are required.

While I prefer cadet or even trainee (if we really must differentiate between participants and staff), I have no problem with student (although I agree that the term seems more appropriate for a school than an encampment).

As far as the whole sleep deprivation, yelling, etc. goes, I truly believe this has to do more with cadets (and maybe even some SMs) wanting to feel some "power" over the "student" cadets maybe because it makes them feel important or superior, or just because they had to go through it themselves. Back when I was a cadet, you could get away with lots of things including yelling, name calling, push-ups as punishments, etc. It seemed normal and even expected. But when I look back now, I realize that wasn't the best (or even a good) approach.

I still remember a drill team commander (C/Flight Officer), who was also a Marine Reservist, yelling at us and making us do extra exercise all the time. One evening, we were on the ground doing scissor kicks and he was walking around stepping on everyone's stomach. When he stepped on me, I held his foot and pushed it off. He then proceeded to start kicking me while I was on the ground. I then got up and, as he was yelling and cursing at me, I made a "gesture" with my finger while walking away (hey, I was a dumb teenager, what can I say). That really upset him, so he ran after me and when he got to me, he started strangling me. Everyone else, who up to that point were just staring at the whole situation, ran to pull him off of me. At the end, the interesting thing about this story is that most other cadets felt that I was in the wrong, not him. He was the drill team commander, so I just had to "take it" and "get over it".

This story may be an extreme case, but the bottom line is that hazing and abuse, whether physical, verbal or emotional, have NO place in CAP. Period. Not in encampment, not at the units. There are better ways to train and challenge cadets.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 18, 2013, 09:29:04 PM

Quote from: NCRblues on July 18, 2013, 09:04:29 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 18, 2013, 08:46:52 PM



All classes have to have an after test

Not trying to call you out here at all, but i am looking at the new manual and I can't find what your saying above. Can you give me a page number or paragraph?

See section 3.1 for graduation requirements (page 11 of Aug 2012 rev), and the lesson plans for where quizzes and similar are required.

Wow, not sure how I missed that... Thanks..I think  :-\

(FYI, it's on page 30 of the December 2012 rev, for anyone else who is looking)

Storm Chaser.....it is stories just like that that has pushed CAP into taking the CPP stance that has.

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 18, 2013, 04:00:21 PM
What I've meant to say this entire time is that 1, cadets should be called "cadets, and 2, 6-7 hours of sleep is enough to keep the body functioning for 7 days. Being tired is part of the training, because you may want to just fall asleep in formation, but by being disciplined, you stay awake. Same thing with personal time. You can go to bed early, but instead you prepare for the next day.

Uh, no.  Not sure where you got that idea but you are wrong.

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on July 18, 2013, 10:25:08 PM

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 18, 2013, 04:00:21 PM
What I've meant to say this entire time is that 1, cadets should be called "cadets, and 2, 6-7 hours of sleep is enough to keep the body functioning for 7 days. Being tired is part of the training, because you may want to just fall asleep in formation, but by being disciplined, you stay awake. Same thing with personal time. You can go to bed early, but instead you prepare for the next day.

Uh, no.  Not sure where you got that idea but you are wrong.

I don't know how I missed that one on the first time around.   We sleep deprive you so that you have the opportunity to show us your discipline.   Isn't that the premise of SAW?  Not to mention that being sleep deprives is a physical condition not a choice....ergo it is not a lack of discipline if you fall asleep in formation....but a lack of sleep.  We might as well just break everyone's right leg before encampment so they can test your discipline in PT.   Work through the pain!

We probably should consider limiting food intake as well.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 19, 2013, 02:22:58 AM
We probably should consider limiting food intake as well.

"You got, what, a six to eight week training program here? Which is perfect for me!"

Yeah, we need to toughen things up again. ::) Here is my home movie of my first encampment.

Bridge on the River Kwai Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83bmsluWHZc#)

Quote from: ol'fido on July 19, 2013, 02:49:52 AM
Yeah, we need to toughen things up again. ::) Here is my home movie of my first encampment.

I can't whistle.   :-\

Quote from: NIN on July 19, 2013, 02:28:02 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 19, 2013, 02:22:58 AM
We probably should consider limiting food intake as well.

"You got, what, a six to eight week training program here? Which is perfect for me!"

I know that quote!  :)

Quote from: ol'fido on July 19, 2013, 02:49:52 AM
Yeah, we need to toughen things up again. ::) Here is my home movie of my first encampment.

Bridge on the River Kwai Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83bmsluWHZc#)

Sooooo....the Japanese = Sea Cadets?  ;D

Quote from: lordmonar on July 18, 2013, 10:11:28 PM
Storm Chaser.....it is stories just like that that has pushed CAP into taking the CPP stance that has.

On a more recent case, my son went to encampment last winter and when he came back, he told me of a flight sergeant that used to curse and yell all sort of profanity to his cadet trainees. When I inquired about the senior member tac officer assigned to the flight (or any other SM present for that matter), my son said that this flight sergeant usually did this when there was no SM around and that they spent quite a bit of time without SM supervision.

Now, I'm strict with my cadets and I'm very adamant about enforcing the standards. But what this flight sergeant this was completely unacceptable and not conducive to training and discipline. We was being a bully; nothing more. This type of behavior should not be tolerated in CAP; not even in encampment. CAP encampment is NOT boot camp!

Unfortunately, he couldn't remember this cadet's name. Otherwise, I would ensure he would never staff an encampment again. By the way, this wasn't the only story. Apparently, some of the cadet staff would throw cadet trainees' belongings all over the place during inspections; even outside the windows.

How is this 'training' helping the development of these cadets "into dynamic Americans and aerospace leaders" (CAPR 52-16)? Didn't think so...

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 19, 2013, 02:48:14 PM
Now, I'm strict with my cadets and I'm very adamant about enforcing the standards. But what this flight sergeant this was completely unacceptable and not conducive to training and discipline. We was being a bully; nothing more. This type of behavior should not be tolerated in CAP; not even in encampment. CAP encampment is NOT boot camp!

He may not, but the Commander of the activity will have the staff listing and would be interested.  Since it wasn't reported at the time, there's not
much that can be done, but a discussion could be had between the encampment CC and this cadet's unit CC to adjust attitudes, and
next time this cadet applies for a staff job somewhere, this can be brought up.

Your son really should have made an issue of it at the time - what I always told my people was "I can't fix last year".

Quote from: Eclipse on July 19, 2013, 03:12:10 PM
Your son really should have made an issue of it at the time - what I always told my people was "I can't fix last year".

Agree; he should have. But he was a C/A1C with about six months in CAP and barely 13. He has been briefed since then.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 19, 2013, 03:35:12 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 19, 2013, 03:12:10 PM
Your son really should have made an issue of it at the time - what I always told my people was "I can't fix last year".

Agree; he should have. But he was a C/A1C with about six months in CAP and barely 13. He has been briefed since then.

Understood - and a lot of CC's don't make that clear from day one - we always emphasized that beginning with staff selections and
especially at RST, and even with all that effort, there was never a year where someone didn't complain that "Jim was touching my stuff last year".

As Encampments are a wing level event, I would encourage reporting it to Wing. That could be to the CC or the IG.

Storm Chaser, your brief description points to issues larger than 1 cadet. Even if an other encampment has been run since, your wing CP and CC should be aware of these issues.

If we are talking 2 winters ago it might just be a "I know what you did last winter" talk ended with "go forth and sin no more" to those involved. Right now some may be thinking the got away with something or worse still have no idea they were wrong.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 19, 2013, 02:22:58 AM
We probably should consider limiting food intake as well.

Careful with those ideas... I just had a constituent call me and yell at me about our school district's summer meal program.  His direct quote, "don't make it so easy on those kids; hunger can be a great motivator for problem solving.  If they go hungry for a day or two I bet they'll figure somethin' out"

So somewhere there are people who will take that comment as testimony, not sarcasm!

Quote from: MajorM on July 19, 2013, 11:11:24 PMSo somewhere there are people who will take that comment as testimony, not sarcasm!

Too true...
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/232637/july-01-2009/tip-wag---cynthia-davis---fox-news (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/232637/july-01-2009/tip-wag---cynthia-davis---fox-news)

Rather than depriving all of them of sleep and starving them, can't we just shoot the low performers so the Cadet Medics can practice on them? 

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on July 19, 2013, 11:57:48 PM
Rather than depriving all of them of sleep and starving them, can't we just shoot the low performers so the Cadet Medics can practice on them?

No No No No......we make each flight to choose one cadet and then those cadets are locked in a room with a single Rambo knife.   At the end of the encampment......the sole surviving cadets wins his flight "Honor Flight".  :)

One of our former cadets who is an MTI at Lackland now had the nickname of "Death March". ;D

Just reinstate Drummond Island.  >:D

Quote from: Garibaldi on July 20, 2013, 09:55:53 PM
Just reinstate Drummond Island.  >:D

Or Georgia Wing Cadet Leadership School... back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a cadink it had a reputation of pushing the elevation of Travis ANGB a few inches every summer!  ;D

In 1968 or 69, Florida Wing held their summer encampment at Travis ANG Base. Great Encampment location provided airlift of cadets from Miami area was available.

Quote from: BillB on July 21, 2013, 11:36:57 AM
In 1968 or 69, Florida Wing held their summer encampment at Travis ANG Base. Great Encampment location provided airlift of cadets from Miami area was available.

Our '84 and '85 encampments were there. Waking up to the smell of the paper mill was a real treat.

Quote from: Garibaldi on July 20, 2013, 09:55:53 PM
Just reinstate Drummond Island.  >:D

You think that Drummond Island actually stopped?

Quote from: lordmonar on July 20, 2013, 12:20:16 AM

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on July 19, 2013, 11:57:48 PM
Rather than depriving all of them of sleep and starving them, can't we just shoot the low performers so the Cadet Medics can practice on them?

No No No No......we make each flight to choose one cadet and then those cadets are locked in a room with a single Rambo knife.   At the end of the encampment......the sole surviving cadets wins his flight "Honor Flight".  :)

"Alpha Flight offers Airman Timmy as our Tribute!!"

BTW, I just read back thru the comments (I kind of tuned this out for a bit, I think the discourse actually got better in this thread, however) couple things come to mind:

1) Cadets swearing at their troops. Anybody who knows me that I could make Chesty Puller, George Patton and H. Norman Schwarzkopf blush, but as a commander I never use that kind of language in front of or around the troops. (I have some @#$% discipline, for @#$% sake!  8) ) 

Many, many years ago, after some complaints from cadets & parents, I put out an edict to squadron: "If I catch you swearing at or in front of your troops, I'm takin' a stripe. Period. This is your warning."   

One of my TSgt Flt Sgts decided that the old man is crazy and would never follow thru on such a threat.  Later, several cadets complained about his language and I asked them to provide me written statements.  I then counseled and demoted the Flight Sergeant.   

His mom came in to the squadron all hot under the collar that we would treat her son like this.  I slid the statements of the witnesses across the table to her, which included the words that he'd used.  "Do you condone this kind of language out of your 15 year old son?"  She realized her little angel had told her that he was being railroaded for some other reason.  She asked me if I could take another stripe for good measure. :)

Its NOT needed and NOT appropriate. I want to know, apart from a 25+ year old movie (Full Metal Jacket), where cadets get this idea that hurling invective and questioning the parentage of their charges in a very loud, grotesque manner somehow equals "leadership."   Last time I looked, the cadet leadership materials did not suggest that spittle-laden outbursts of words that make a sailor wince were either a) motivational; b) effective; or c) allowed.

2) the CPP, warts and all, does not inhibit good leadership.  The next time I hear someone say "Well, with the CPP now, we can't do X, Y or Z" I swear I'm gonna go all Jim Mattis on 'em.

Look, we've been under the CPP in one form or another since at least 1989 when I returned from Active Duty and became a senior member. This is not new material here, folks.  Leadership is leadership, irrespective of the CPP.   

When I hear people wax poetic about "how things were in the old days [of 2007], when we could give cadets pushups and call them names," I really want to know what organization they were in, cuz the Civil Air Patrol's CPP was in place, and working, in the rest of the country since WAYYY before then. Way before.  Its not like Group 92 of Florida Wing [note: fake, made up unit. not inferring FL wing has this problem] had an exception to policy from NHQ to suspend or abridge the CPP in their AO from 1989 to 2008.

3) Things are wimpier today than WIWAC. When I hear "how much tougher we had it, and cadets today don't," I'm tempted to invoke the "Old Corps" joke here. No, screw it, I'm not tempted, I AM gonna invoke the "Old Corps" joke:

Quote
"Legend has it that the United States Marine Corps was born on 10 November, 1775, at Tun Tavern, in Philidelphia, Pennsylvania. On that day, the Continental Congress passed a resolution authorizing two battalions of Continental Marines. The resolution was sponsored by John Adams. Since 1921, the Corps has celebrated its birthday as 10 November.

Tun Tavern was a popular meeting place of 18th century Philadelphians. The tavern was frequented by sailors and other seafaring men, so it was a logical place to conduct the business of recruiting."

What follows was related to me by a Master Gunnery Sergeant:

When the Navy officers set up a table in the Tun Tavern and started interviewing prospects, they were a bit relieved to finally find a young man who fit their requirements. They had him sign the book, paid him his dollar, and bought a round of rum to toast the enlistment. They were so happy to finally get the whole process underway, they even had a second round. They then send him off to a table in the corner to wait.

After a few more interviews, they found a second recruit, who soon joined the first.

"This is great," the second recruit said. "They paid me right away, and even bought me a tot of rum!"

"Hunh," sneered the first. "In the Old Corps they bought us two.

4) There is a difference between "What was allowed" and "What people got away with." In 1981, we sang songs like "Irene" in front of SMs. Holy cow.  Was it right? Probably not.  Was it tacitly allowed? Yep.  Would I allow it today?  Ehhhh, sometimes what happens out of earshot of the boss happens.. <GRIN>

But the bottom line is: Just because you "pushed [your encampment site] back to [nearby big city]" all week long doesn't mean that it was a good idea or done under the auspices of the CPP that has been in place since 1988-1989.

*sigh*...

But WIWAC was totally cooler!

Quote from: usafaux2004 on July 21, 2013, 05:35:07 PM
But WIWAC was totally cooler!

That was an Ice Age not a CP program!  :)

Quote from: lordmonar on July 21, 2013, 05:47:14 PM

Quote from: usafaux2004 on July 21, 2013, 05:35:07 PM
But WIWAC was totally cooler!

That was an Ice Age not a CP program!  :)

Back when the earth cooled, dinosaurs roamed the earth and Jesus Christ was an A1C... and we old timers will say that the Ooooold cadet program was the best cadet program!  >:D   ;D

Quote from: TexasCadet on July 17, 2013, 05:04:49 PM
I have read a new supplement from National HQ about encampment, and frankly, its going to turn encampment into summer camp. It says, among other things, cadets will get eight hours of sleep and will be called students. On my basic, we were called cadets and we got 6-7 hours of sleep (usually 6). We were woken up with whistle, yelling, and banging on our lockers. Heck, when I went to Airman Leadership School, we were woken up with air horns! Is it just me, or are we (CAP) getting soft?

:clap: :clap:  Great question. my encampment was the same as yours.--except I went to PAWG this year. ( >:D)   :'(

Nin, your last comment was... interesting. I have never heard the song, Irene so I made a search using Irene camp song lyrics.

Does Irene by any count starts and end with...

Irene goodnight, Irene goodnight
Goodnight Irene, goodnight Irene
I'll see you in my dreams

If this is it, interesting song, to say the least...

>:D

I have bookmarked it, cannot listen to it as I am sitting at a McDonalds next to their TV. It is  hectic here...

Flyer

Irene's her name, she's one of the best....

Thank you Fido-

When I saw your post I knew I had the wrong Irene.

Continued the search and found the jodie that ends with the F-15 line.

Funny in that both searches I found references to Irene Cara. Wonder if the search was trying to imply something...

Flyer

No prob. In my day, it was an F-4, but who knows where it began.

I am going to agree with everyone who has said this is NOT the USAF. Cadets are teenagers and as such, require a set amount of sleep, this is for good health, not because its being wimpy.  Further, I went to encampment in mid-late 80s and we didn't 'drop and give em 20" Heck, I didn't do that at BMT in the USAF in 1988.  We were there to learn, both locations. Yes, we did a lot of drill, we did PT and yes, we had to stand with our little white books in front of our faces (both locations, BTW), but, we also spent a lot of time in classrooms and on tours of the AFB we were at.
THIS IS NOT NOR SHOULD IT BE CONSIDERED BASIC MILITARY TRAINING, NOR IS IT THE US ARMY OR US MARINE CORPS. Punitive training does not work.

The only complaints I have about encampments is the length of time they are held for. I don't feel like one week is enough. I did two week encampments and looking back, I wish I had attended one that was 3 weeks long. Just because there was so much to learn and I don't think we learned it all or even a good portion of it.

Now, the only other thing I don't agree with, and this is speaking as a woman, is the integration of Female cadets with Male Cadets.  I say this because, as teens, female cadets tend to be 1) more mature than males at the same age (Sorry guys, that is a physiological thing, we grow up a little faster) and 2) we tend to focus better on learning without boys around and finally, 3) We also tend to work better with other girls. This has been shown in many studies. I do not think we need or should be held to a different standard, just kept 'separate' during certain activities. There's also the whole hormonal thing teens have., but that is something entirely different.

Just my thoughts.

You said that girls learn better without boys around. Are you suggesting that we segregate our squadrons and classrooms into "boys only" and "girls only"?

Quote from: kmorisen on October 08, 2013, 12:06:36 PM
Now, the only other thing I don't agree with, and this is speaking as a woman, is the integration of Female cadets with Male Cadets.  I say this because, as teens, female cadets tend to be 1) more mature than males at the same age (Sorry guys, that is a physiological thing, we grow up a little faster) and 2) we tend to focus better on learning without boys around and finally, 3) We also tend to work better with other girls. This has been shown in many studies. I do not think we need or should be held to a different standard, just kept 'separate' during certain activities. There's also the whole hormonal thing teens have., but that is something entirely different.

Just my thoughts.

An Equal Opportunity complaint just waiting to happen. I'm pretty sure "separate but equal" has been tried and found wanting before.

Quote from: kmorisen on October 08, 2013, 12:06:36 PM
Now, the only other thing I don't agree with, and this is speaking as a woman, is the integration of Female cadets with Male Cadets.  I say this because, as teens, female cadets tend to be 1) more mature than males at the same age (Sorry guys, that is a physiological thing, we grow up a little faster) and 2) we tend to focus better on learning without boys around and finally, 3) We also tend to work better with other girls. This has been shown in many studies. I do not think we need or should be held to a different standard, just kept 'separate' during certain activities. There's also the whole hormonal thing teens have., but that is something entirely different.

Heck, why not have separate schools while we're at it. No, I disagree with you point of view. CAP is not the Boy or Girl Scouts.

That's not how we run the Cadet Programs in our squadrons, nor how National Cadet Special Activities or other schools are run. Why should encampment be any different?

Actually, this logic would work well. My squadron has 20 male cadets and 3 female cadets. We can have two flights (male and female), two classrooms (male and female), and two uniform inspections (male and female). Wonderful idea.  ;)

I've been involved in two encampments where the guys and gals were in separate flights, one as a cadet, and one as a SM. In both cases, the gals consistently outperformed the guys. In both cases, the gals ended up as honor flight. So, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

OTOH, integrating them could have the benefit of the "more mature" girls showing the "immature" boys how it's done.

YMMV.

And here I always thought that the reason woman live on average five years longer than men is that it takes them that much longer to mature. 

Not all male cadets are immature. Example: At my encampment, some male cadets acted like idiots, while some of us actually did a good job. In fact, the male barracks I was in was the only barracks in the entire encampment (staff included) to pass an Army sergeant major's white-glove inspection.

I've been the Tac Officer for all male flights, all female flights and mixed gender flights and I've noticed a few things over the years.

All female flights tend to bond quicker and start using teamwork faster then the guys do.

Example: Encampment starts on Saturday. By Tuesday the girls are working together, but their performance starts dropping off by Friday.
The Guys don't get the clue until Wednesday/Thursday and they usually peak on Saturday.
The co-ed flights seem to combine this stuff as in they're working in teams by Tuesday and their performance stays peaked all the way until graduation.

I find it interesting that you have integrated flights at encampment.  How does that work with billeting and flight time?  If you have a barracks with 12 bunk beds (10 for the 20 cadets, one for the TAC Officer) you would have to have two half-filled barracks per flight.  How does this promote teamwork?  It's basically two separate flights that drill together.  Then there's the problem of supervision - you either have to have two TAC Officers for every flight (one male & one female) or there is no TAC Officer for one gender.  Then there's the issue with showers.

As far as the intensity issue, I think it works great when done properly.  If you're having issues with staff going overboard, either you aren't training your staff properly or the TAC Officers aren't paying attention - that's their primary purpose.  It is decidedly NOT supposed to be the same intensity as a squadron - otherwise why go through the expense and trouble of having an encampment at all?  Just let the squadrons train them.  The point of intensity is to push them into realizing that they are better as a team than as individuals.  If you're following the curriculum, intensity wanes through the week.  The banquet and graduation should be normal intensity like their squadron, but that's at the end.

Quote from: PHall on October 09, 2013, 01:21:39 AM
I've been the Tac Officer for all male flights, all female flights and mixed gender flights and I've noticed a few things over the years.

All female flights tend to bond quicker and start using teamwork faster then the guys do.

Example: Encampment starts on Saturday. By Tuesday the girls are working together, but their performance starts dropping off by Friday.
The Guys don't get the clue until Wednesday/Thursday and they usually peak on Saturday.
The co-ed flights seem to combine this stuff as in they're working in teams by Tuesday and their performance stays peaked all the way until graduation.

Mixed-gender flights do work well. At my encampment, the girls made really good bunks, and the guys polished shoes really well.

Quote from: Elioron on October 09, 2013, 06:58:06 AM
I find it interesting that you have integrated flights at encampment.  How does that work with billeting and flight time?  If you have a barracks with 12 bunk beds (10 for the 20 cadets, one for the TAC Officer) you would have to have two half-filled barracks per flight.  How does this promote teamwork?  It's basically two separate flights that drill together.  Then there's the problem of supervision - you either have to have two TAC Officers for every flight (one male & one female) or there is no TAC Officer for one gender.  Then there's the issue with showers.

As far as the intensity issue, I think it works great when done properly.  If you're having issues with staff going overboard, either you aren't training your staff properly or the TAC Officers aren't paying attention - that's their primary purpose.  It is decidedly NOT supposed to be the same intensity as a squadron - otherwise why go through the expense and trouble of having an encampment at all?  Just let the squadrons train them.  The point of intensity is to push them into realizing that they are better as a team than as individuals.  If you're following the curriculum, intensity wanes through the week.  The banquet and graduation should be normal intensity like their squadron, but that's at the end.

I'll let ecplise chime in, as I'm out the door, but for starters not all encampments have the same accamodations. Second, showers and sleep is pretty much the only time the mixed flight is separated.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 09, 2013, 01:31:44 PM
I'll let ecplise chime in, as I'm out the door, but for starters not all encampments have the same accommodations. Second, showers and sleep is pretty much the only time the mixed flight is separated.

We've done encampment at a couple of different places, but one of the things we look for is bay barracks where everyone is in the same room.  It has a huge impact for camaraderie and a sense of unity for the flight.  In fact, we no longer use one site because they converted their barracks to dorm-style rooms.  Is it common at other encampments to have cadets in the same flight in different rooms?

Quote from: Elioron on October 09, 2013, 04:42:14 PM

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 09, 2013, 01:31:44 PM
I'll let ecplise chime in, as I'm out the door, but for starters not all encampments have the same accommodations. Second, showers and sleep is pretty much the only time the mixed flight is separated.

We've done encampment at a couple of different places, but one of the things we look for is bay barracks where everyone is in the same room.  It has a huge impact for camaraderie and a sense of unity for the flight.  In fact, we no longer use one site because they converted their barracks to dorm-style rooms.  Is it common at other encampments to have cadets in the same flight in different rooms?

Our encampment has a need for only two compartments. If it was an "all male" crowd, pretty much all of the cadets could be in just one:
(http://www.netc.navy.mil/nstc/images/news/110824-002.jpg)

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 09, 2013, 04:44:38 PM
Our encampment has a need for only two compartments. If it was an "all male" crowd, pretty much all of the cadets could be in just one:

I think part of my thinking is that my only experience is with encampments of 100-150 cadets, so filling full flights of females wasn't really an issue.  If you don't have enough females to make a full flight you have to provide a way for them to complete encampment or their growth in the program is hampered.

By the way, I hope I didn't come across as saying that mixed flights were wrong.  I am genuinely interested in how these challenges are overcome.  We are looking to move our encampment again, and not having the flights billeted together would open up more options.

Quote from: Elioron on October 09, 2013, 05:01:10 PM

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 09, 2013, 04:44:38 PM
Our encampment has a need for only two compartments. If it was an "all male" crowd, pretty much all of the cadets could be in just one:

I think part of my thinking is that my only experience is with encampments of 100-150 cadets, so filling full flights of females wasn't really an issue.  If you don't have enough females to make a full flight you have to provide a way for them to complete encampment or their growth in the program is hampered.

By the way, I hope I didn't come across as saying that mixed flights were wrong.  I am genuinely interested in how these challenges are overcome.  We are looking to move our encampment again, and not having the flights billeted together would open up more options.

We've done 100 cadets just fine with two compartments - all the males in one, and the females in the other.

WIWACEFS (WIWAC Encampment First Sergeant), my exec staff and I came up with this brilliant idea of increasing efficiency and time spent every morning/evening on getting ready/showers, etc by making male and female flights. Logic being, the males wouldn't "have to" wait on the females to come into their compartment for PT, and flights wouldn't "have to" wait for the females to join the rest of their flight mates.

In fact, here's the email exchange from 2006:

Quote
Ok all,  XXXXXXXX and I were talking about some issues we've noticed at past encampments due to co-ed flights.  We both feel that if we have enough female cadets, we should have an all female flight.  Some of the reasons as to why think this is as follows:   - It will lessen the distractions for both the male and female cadets so the flight staff can do their job more efficienlty.   - It will help the flight staff know where every member of their flight is at all times.   - It saves us from having to wait for the other "half" of the flight in the mornings, and will help things move quicker.   - We also believe it will make the females feel more comfortable in the environment of mostly males.   The faster we get your opinions, the better!!!   c/Capt YYYYYYYYYYYY GLE 06 Cadet Commander

QuoteFeb 21, 2006 at 7:27 AM       That is a great idea, I was actually thinking about it, because when Lt.XXXXXX  and I went to Honor Guard Academy, the flights were segregated, and it worked great. I am all for it, and usssually we have about 15-20 females so we should technically have enough females.



Michael Hatkevich, C/CMSgt, CAP

QuoteTeam,I have been thinking a lot about this.
I think it's important that we keep the flights coed - I recognize the issues that this brings up but I am confident that you can overcome them.  I think it's important that everyone get a chance to get to know each other and that we maintain a sense of teamwork among all genders.  If all of the armed forces BMT schools can do it - so can we.  It just means more pressure on the flight commanders to make sure that if it says report at 0630 that means everyone - males and females.

2d Lt ZZZZZZZZZ CAPCommandant of Cadets, llinois Wing Spring Encampment 2006

Gender segregation is not the preferred option, but is almost always facility-driven.  In other words, we normally do not segregate by gender unless forced to by the facility design or layout.

And of course, we do not typically have much choice when it comes to our encampment facilities.  We pretty much have to take what we can get.  So it may be that a given encampment has to be gender segregated.

I hope it goes almost without saying why gender segregation is not the preferred option.  The whole point of the cadet program is to teach leadership and related skills.  And one of our strengths is that we do so through a participatory Leadership Laboratory, where cadets actively learn and practice leadership techniques.  If we do our job correctly, cadets will go on to become leaders in their communities, businesses, and in government service.

As others have described, same sex flights tend to have significantly differing internal dynamics when compared to mixed gender flights.

But in today's society, men and women work together in business and government service.  The days of workplaces being highly segregated by gender are largely behind us.   Cadets should not spend what is likely the most intensive leadership training experience they will receive in their lives in an artificially gender segregated environment. 

I still think there is a great deal to be learned about human nature and leadership even in a gender segregated encampment.  But the lessons are more realistic and applicable to modern society when learned in a co-ed environment.

Finally, gender segregation, even when necessary, tends to result in reduced training and learning opportunities for female cadet NCOs and officers, simple because of the typical gender ratios of CAP cadets.  If there is only one female flight (out of 5 flights), then there is typically only going to be a single female flight sergeant position available regardless of how many qualified female applicants are available.  This has a cascading effect in the out years since the female flight commander tends to be last year's flight sergeant.  Similarly, squadron commanders are most often selected from the pool of cadets who have been successful flight commanders.  And so on.  Thus, some of our best and brightest young women may be unable to be competative for the advanced leadership training that comes with being on staff.

(Some encampments forced to gender segregate may be able to have both male and female flight staff assigned to a flight, but normally the same conditions that forced the original gender segregation choice tend to require same sex flight staff as well.  Things like WWII style open-bay barracks with group shower rooms and "stall - less" latrines.)

CAP's encampment program is one of the best things we do for our cadets.  Even if a given wing is forced by facility issues to segregate.  I have always been faintly jealous of the Army Cadet's model that assumes that each cadet and adult leader will attend their encampment-equivalent every year.  I don't think that will work for CAP, but it is fun to think about.

Ned Lee
Encampment Enthusiast

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 09, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
We've done 100 cadets just fine with two compartments - all the males in one, and the females in the other.

Ok, you are using BIG compartments.  If you have multiple flights in the same bay, that adds another dynamic.

Quote from: Ned on October 09, 2013, 05:47:41 PM
Some encampments forced to gender segregate may be able to have both male and female flight staff assigned to a flight, but normally the same conditions that forced the original gender segregation choice tend to require same sex flight staff as well.  Things like WWII style open-bay barracks with group shower rooms and "stall - less" latrines.

Thank you, Ned - good post.

We've used the old pre-WWII barracks at North Fort Lewis the last two years.  Each building has two floors with a bay of twelve bunk beds and a staff room with one bunk bed, then a single bathroom on the bottom floor with four bathroom stalls and an open shower with three heads.  Each flight (up to 20 cadets) had their bay along with the gender-matched TAC Officer.  The staff would stay in the staff rooms.  Because the staff rooms have only two beds we could mix the gender of staff easily by simply having them trade sleeping areas (Alpha Flt Sgt would switch with Bravo Flt Comm to keep genders together).  Last year we had one female flight, but we had a lot of female line staff.  Prior to North Fort we used similar (but much newer) facilities at Camp Murray.

There was a lot of bonding and camaraderie during the personal time just before lights out.  I can't help but wonder if that sense of team wouldn't be hampered by being separated, whether because of gender or space available.  I also understand that there is the ideal and there is what we have to work with.  I think you nailed it by saying it was primarily motivated by your facility.

Does anyone have experience using dorm-style billeting where the flight is broken into rooms of two or four cadets each?

Here is the barracks for our female flight last year.  Notice that both the Flight Commander and Flight Sergeant (this year) were male.  We had female Flight Commanders and Flight Sergeants, but they were assigned elsewhere.

(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/1005361_409429569161440_1736913970_n.jpg)

Quote from: Elioron on October 09, 2013, 06:33:01 PM
There was a lot of bonding and camaraderie during the personal time just before lights out.  I can't help but wonder if that sense of team wouldn't be hampered by being separated, whether because of gender or space available.  I also understand that there is the ideal and there is what we have to work with.  I think you nailed it by saying it was primarily motivated by your facility.

Does anyone have experience using dorm-style billeting where the flight is broken into rooms of two or four cadets each?

When I went to my basic encampment we were billeted in the VAQ at Randolph AFB. Each room held 3 cadets (with one large bed) with two rooms sharing a bathroom. The cadets in my room were all in the same flight, but the cadets we shared a bathroom with were from a different flight. The only problem that arose was that we got in trouble for all three of us sleeping in sleeping bags on the floor and no one using the bed.

As for camaraderie, I don't feel that being in separate rooms impacted that. We still had personal time where we were allowed to go to other rooms or even hang out at the pavilion in the middle of the area we were staying at. We were also a co-ed flight

My first encampment was in 1969 in an open-bay barracks, which had been the norm for CAP during the 50's and 60's. Most likely because open-bay was the norm for the military services in training environments.

I've since been to encampments held in a variety of facilities. One of the more unusual places was the not-much-lamented "Inland House" at what used to be Norton AFB. It was a warehouse complex converted to transient housing. Looked like a warehouse on the outside, but looked like a finest kind cheesy motel in the inside. With individual rooms, none having a window.

The place that has been held dear in the hearts of many from CA WG was the facility at Vandenberg AFB, used from the 1970's to the late 1980's. It was a AFROTC field training facility. Dedicated dining hall, HQ building, nearby classroom building. WWII era barracks converted to two-person rooms. Each had a room on each floor big enough for three racks. The ground floor one was a combined Tactical Officer quarters and office. The upstairs mirror of that room held three cadets. Cadet flight commander had his/her own room on the ground floor, flight sergeant and assistant Tactical Officer each had a room to themselves on the upper floor. So, a cadet staff member and tactical officer on each floor.

I remember some moaning and wailing in 1973 over those barracks not being open bay and that training would suffer. But when those barracks were unavailable in 1980, there was even more moaning and wailing - the facility had become ingrained as being almost indispensable as a training environment. "Encampment just won't be the SAME!"  And there was great jubilation heard throughout California when the facility again became available in 1983, after a few years of Army, USMC and other facilities. (The facility was unceremoniously bulldozed out of existence when all AFROTC training was consolidated at Lackland AFB).

I guess my point is - CAP adapts. The facility isn't the only element that makes up a training environment.

Quote from: Ned on October 09, 2013, 05:47:41 PM
Gender segregation is not the preferred option, but is almost always facility-driven.  In other words, we normally do not segregate by gender unless forced to by the facility design or layout.

Are we talking about billeting or flight composition.

Gender segregation is required for billeting, but why would a venue dictate the flight composition?

jeders and Mitchell 1969 - great input!

Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2013, 12:45:36 AM
Gender segregation is required for billeting, but why would a venue dictate the flight composition?

It seems to me that the difficulties of having your flight split between two separate buildings simply isn't worth it when you could have a dedicated female flight.  North Fort Lewis would be such a place.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2013, 12:45:36 AM
Are we talking about billeting or flight composition.

Gender segregation is required for billeting, but why would a venue dictate the flight composition?

While it is improper to billet males and females in the same room, there is nothing inherently improper in having them in the same barracks building if reasonable separation can occur.  For example, in a "WWII-style open bar converted to 2-person room" barracks, it is not uncommon to have the females upstairs and the males downstairs in the same building.  This would allow a co-ed flight and permit reasonable supervision.

Venues can dictate flight composition when gender integration is not reasonably possible in the same barracks building or dorm.  Although it is theoretically possible to have an encampment where, for example, the three females assigned to Alpha flight sleep in beds #1-3 in the female open bay barracks, while the 12 males sleep together in another open bay barracks, in practice it is very difficult for the flight to meld into an effective team in these situations.  Plus there are practical difficulties in inspections, getting formations underway, and simply supervising the smaller numbers of females when they are physically separated from the rest of the flight.

We've had this discussion before, of course, and I expect Patrick will again tell us that he has been successful with this particular model.  The required separation is the issue, rather than gender per se.  The flight would have the same problems coming together if three male cadets were billeted in a different building than the rest of the flight.

It would be interesting to have some data in this regard.  Encampments have always been a special interest of mine, and in visiting encampments in a lot of states and speaking with CP types from many others, my impression is that gender integration is the norm.  And with the gradual modernization of military housing facilities nation wide, those ancient open bay, open shower, open latrine WWII barracks are becoming rarer.

Quote from: Ned on October 10, 2013, 02:26:28 AM
While it is improper to billet males and females in the same room, there is nothing inherently improper in having them in the same barracks building if reasonable separation can occur.  For example, in a "WWII-style open bar converted to 2-person room" barracks, it is not uncommon to have the females upstairs and the males downstairs in the same building.  This would allow a co-ed flight and permit reasonable supervision.

Quote from: Ned on October 10, 2013, 02:26:28 AM
Venues can dictate flight composition when gender integration is not reasonably possible in the same barracks building or dorm.  Although it is theoretically possible to have an encampment where, for example, the three females assigned to Alpha flight sleep in beds #1-3 in the female open bay barracks, while the 12 males sleep together in another open bay barracks, in practice it is very difficult for the flight to meld into an effective team in these situations.  Plus there are practical difficulties in inspections, getting formations underway, and simply supervising the smaller numbers of females when they are physically separated from the rest of the flight.

We've had this discussion before, of course, and I expect Patrick will again tell us that he has been successful with this particular model.  The required separation is the issue, rather than gender per se.  The flight would have the same problems coming together if three male cadets were billeted in a different building than the rest of the flight.

You don't have to wait for Patrick.  I have direct, prolonged experience as well and had no issues.

Male compartment on one side of the hall, females on the other.  Common sense personal time separation, otherwise
integrated flights and no particular cohesion problems.

Quote from: Ned on October 10, 2013, 02:26:28 AM
It would be interesting to have some data in this regard.  Encampments have always been a special interest of mine, and in visiting encampments in a lot of states and speaking with CP types from many others, my impression is that gender integration is the norm.  And with the gradual modernization of military housing facilities nation wide, those ancient open bay, open shower, open latrine WWII barracks are becoming rarer.

The Navy just spent 10 years and $770M disagreeing with you.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2013, 03:05:33 AM
The Navy just spent 10 years and $770M disagreeing with you.

If that's at Great Mistakes, you know as well as I do that recruit training accommodations are a special case, and not typical when looking service-wide. Typical new construction is 2-4 person rooms with integrated or shared bathrooms.

Quote from: SarDragon on October 10, 2013, 04:11:30 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2013, 03:05:33 AM
The Navy just spent 10 years and $770M disagreeing with you.

If that's at Great Mistakes, you know as well as I do that recruit training accommodations are a special case, and not typical when looking service-wide. Typical new construction is 2-4 person rooms with integrated or shared bathrooms.

I don't disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that they aren't on their way out.  Frankly I'm not even sure why the open bay / separate room
issue is even a factor in the gender segregation discussion.  Where the cadets sleep should not influence the flight configurations.

Our Summer encampment is at a Military Academy that has the 2-4 person room type setup.  Isn't NESA open-bay for most?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that our encampment location is one of those where gender segregation is pretty much essential.

MIWG uses the Alpena Combat Readiness Training Center.  Lodging is mostly of the two-room dorm variety, with 6 open bay buildings on the base.  Each building is set up in a single story H configuration, where the vertical legs are open bays (42 beds per bay), or subdivided into 9 two-person rooms with a day room on one end.  The horizontal connecter is two latrines separated by a solid wall.  There is no interior access from one side of the H to the other.

If you look up Alpena Combat Readiness Training Center on google maps, or your preferred website, use the satellite view and zoom in.  Pretty much everything with a green or brown roof is lodging.

From a financial standpoint, our preferred option is to put first timers in the open bay barracks.  WIWAEC, each bed in an open bay was $8.00 per night, while a bed in a room was $11.00.  Three dollars may seem trivial, until you multiply that by 100 cadets.  That's $300 per night, or $2100 for the week.  As I haven't been involved in our encampment the last couple of years, I don't know if that's changed or not.

There are 6 open bay barracks wings (3 H type buildings).  What we do is set one wing aside for male cadet staff (squadron staff and up, and support staff).  Female cadet and support staff are in a dorm building across the sidewalk from the males.  From there, we have 8 flights, and are limited to a max of 21 people per flight (18 first timers, two cadet staff and one TAC officer).  Put two flights into each of those buildings, and the ninth flight is alone in the last one, which gives us some overflow room for transients if needed.  The couple of times we tried co-ed flights, we noticed the issues with camaraderie and flight bonding, but also noticed that the predominantly male staff cadets were keeping the females in the male barracks during TAC time to help the males out, while neglecting their own.  It also created accountability problems during fire drills (one held at the beginning of the activity), and communications problems making sure the word got to the females.  No matter what we tried to come up with to overcome these issues, we couldn't eliminate all of them.  So, keeping gender segregated flights makes the most sense.  And we always draw enough female first timers to fill two flights that are pretty much equal in size to the male flights.

If we're stuck in rooms, we have much the same problems.  We're even more limited in flight size as each wing is only capable of 18 people; one room is reserved for the TAC officer (with assistant if we get enough), one room for the flight staff, which leaves room for 14 first timers.  Even these buildings just aren't set up to accommodate mixed gender flights due to the latrine configuration.  So we're left with some members of a flight who could be up to a block (or 6 buildings) away from where their leadership is. 

So, in our case, where we can't lodge the entire encampment in one or two buildings, the most workable option is to separate by gender.

Last year, the base opened up the first (of two proposed) 150 bed "Super dorms" that are-from what I understand-configured like a motel room, or typical military transient lodging facility.  There are some VIP rooms with separate latrines, while most of the rooms are set up to house two people, with a latrine shared with the room next door.  I haven't seen the finished product, let alone been inside, so I have no idea how it would work for a training environment, and I don't know when/if we'd ever be allowed to house the entire encampment in one. 

Some people like open bays and some like the dorm rooms. Both are workable options. Our bay rooms at Camp Lincoln in  Springfield run about $10 a room per night. We can fit 4-8 people in a room depending on the setup. Seniors pay for their rooms out of pocket directly to the base. That is their only fee for the encampment other than working some KP and out of pocket expenses like snacks and toiletries. We had open bays at the Marseilles Training Center. We actually paid more there than at Camp Lincoln.

WIWAC, we had a segregated female squadron. Yes, we used squadrons as the basic unit rather than flights. Alpha was always the female squadron. Given, my last encampment as a cadet was in 1983. When I went back to encampment as a senior in '97, the squadrons were integrated. It was different but it still worked.

Ol'fido's Pearl of Wisdom:

If your unit integrity depends on who your listening to snore at night, you're doing it wrong.

No one snores like a corps of SMs!

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 10, 2013, 10:44:21 PM
No one snores like a corps of SMs!

You've obviously never spent the night in shipboard berthing...

These days the APAP machines are louder then the snoring.

Quote from: Al Sayre on October 11, 2013, 12:58:23 PM

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 10, 2013, 10:44:21 PM
No one snores like a corps of SMs!

You've obviously never spent the night in shipboard berthing...

Only at great lakes.

Texas--What I mean is as a group, a flight that is, yes they do tend to learn a little better than they do if they are integrated in the same flights as boys. Not saying that we completely separate them.  For instance, you really can't have female cadets bunking with male cadets, can you?  I speak from experience, I learned better as a female cadet in a female flight over when I was in the same flight as boys. But, at the same time, we worked with the male flights, just didn't spend all our time with them.

I'm not saying to bunk the male and female cadets together. However, segregating flights is not beneficial. In jobs, you will be working with both males and females. Segregating cadets by gender defeats the purpose of preparing them for life.

I'm a female who has been to multiple Encampments, and I definitely prefer the females being intermixed with the male flights, as opposed to having their own, single flight. Things like dorms should of course be separated, but at my basic (and even while working with male staff) I learned a lot from the guys, and they learned a lot from us. Depending on the size of the Encampment, there may only be one or two other girls in the flight with 10+ guys, but I feel that other then rooming, it's better to not separate genders.

In 1981, at my first encampment, there was one female. One.

1982, three.

1983, enough to make a flight.

1984, same, separate flights

1985, same, separate flights.

1993, enough to make 2 flights, but integrated

2012, about the same, integrated.

I'm guessing that the demographics don't come into play much anymore, but it seems to me that the number of females is on the upswing compared to my day. It was rather odd that in 1981 there was an entire floor of a building devoted to our sole female cadet. She was never late to formations, never harassed or bothered, and was an outstanding cadet.

Quote from: TexasCadet on October 09, 2013, 12:58:00 PM

Quote from: PHall on October 09, 2013, 01:21:39 AM
I've been the Tac Officer for all male flights, all female flights and mixed gender flights and I've noticed a few things over the years.

All female flights tend to bond quicker and start using teamwork faster then the guys do.

Example: Encampment starts on Saturday. By Tuesday the girls are working together, but their performance starts dropping off by Friday.
The Guys don't get the clue until Wednesday/Thursday and they usually peak on Saturday.
The co-ed flights seem to combine this stuff as in they're working in teams by Tuesday and their performance stays peaked all the way until graduation.

Mixed-gender flights do work well. At my encampment, the girls made really good bunks, and the guys polished shoes really well.

I went to PAWG ENC 2013. I find both of these statements very true. I was in Squadron 30. -which was an all female squadron. we passed inspections a lot earlier than some of the boys; and I noticed, though we were working as a team earlier, by Saturday we had to work to keep up with our standard.

QuoteTypical day.

0600 Reville
0615 PT
0700 Shower and change
0730 Chow
0830 First Formation
1230 Chow
1330 Second formation
1730 Chow
1830 Retreat
1900 Sgt's time
2100 Personal Time
2200 Lights Out

My Ohio Wing encampment in 2013 was like that except we showered at night before bed not in the morning.

The recent FLWG encampment had 4 co-ed flights - one per squadron. They were usually at a notable disadvantage throughout the week (from what I could tell with the one on my squadron) in terms of keeping the flight together as much as possible and organizing them in the morning/evening. Not saying they didn't perform well, it just took more effort for the commanders and sergeants to deal with mixed flights.

I'm curious as to how many encampments have coed flights and how many don't. In NJ, females are evenly distributed across all of the flights. In PA, there's a single female flight. One coed flight per squadron in FL, apparently ^^^. NH (Winter) is combined as well.

Quote from: JerseyCadet on January 28, 2014, 09:17:40 PM
I'm curious as to how many encampments have coed flights and how many don't. In NJ, females are evenly distributed across all of the flights. In PA, there's a single female flight. One coed flight per squadron in FL, apparently ^^^. NH (Winter) is combined as well.

Texas Wing has them. Just about every flight is mixed. The only problems I have experienced are 1.) males and females just sometimes don't get along (it's natural), and 2.) they have different barracks assignments (not really a problem, but it can be troublesome when trying to get outside in the morning).

Quote from: JerseyCadet on January 28, 2014, 09:17:40 PM
I'm curious as to how many encampments have coed flights...

Effective this year...all of them.


Draft encampment guide:
"2.2 Integrated Flights & Co-Ed Environments
Cadet flights will be equally balanced by age, gender, cadet grade, and home unit, to the extent possible. Family
members will be segregated from one another whenever possible. Flights will not be segregated by gender,
except as a last resort due to logistical necessity. The real world is fully integrated; cadet activities need to be as
well so that male and female cadets learn to work together as a single team."

Quote from: TexasCadet on January 28, 2014, 09:58:06 PM
Texas Wing has them. Just about every flight is mixed. The only problems I have experienced are 1.) males and females just sometimes don't get along (it's natural), and 2.) they have different barracks assignments (not really a problem, but it can be troublesome when trying to get outside in the morning).

No, it's not.

Quote from: 68w10 on January 28, 2014, 10:12:09 PM

Quote from: TexasCadet on January 28, 2014, 09:58:06 PM
Texas Wing has them. Just about every flight is mixed. The only problems I have experienced are 1.) males and females just sometimes don't get along (it's natural), and 2.) they have different barracks assignments (not really a problem, but it can be troublesome when trying to get outside in the morning).

No, it's not.

Opposite genders don't get along sometimes, just like siblings don't sometimes. For example, in Texas, each flight has to do a skit pertaining to encampment. The males in my flight wanted to do something mimicking an inspection, while the females wanted to sing a song about encampment. Conflict might (and did) arise. Guess who got their way?

Quote from: TexasCadet on January 28, 2014, 10:13:54 PM

Quote from: 68w10 on January 28, 2014, 10:12:09 PM

Quote from: TexasCadet on January 28, 2014, 09:58:06 PM
Texas Wing has them. Just about every flight is mixed. The only problems I have experienced are 1.) males and females just sometimes don't get along (it's natural), and 2.) they have different barracks assignments (not really a problem, but it can be troublesome when trying to get outside in the morning).

No, it's not.

Opposite genders don't get along sometimes, just like siblings don't sometimes. For example, in Texas, each flight has to do a skit pertaining to encampment. The males in my flight wanted to do something mimicking an inspection, while the females wanted to sing a song about encampment. Conflict might (and did) arise. Guess who got their way?

The issue at hand isn't gender, it's people.  Sometimes people don't get along, and people don't always agree.  It's completely unacceptable for us to simply throw our hands up in the air and exclaim "well if we were all the same gender, we'd be able to accomplish something."  If an individual is allowing another person's gender to affect their decision-making process, then that individual needs to be counselled and corrected.

Mixed-gender groups of people accomplish things all the time, it's absurd to suggest that "the norm" is that only same-sex groups can get anything done.   

-Sidenote: No one should have "gotten their way."  You're a flight, you work together as a team to achieve a common objective.  Strange, I think I read that somewhere...http://tinyurl.com/k84u7fo (http://tinyurl.com/k84u7fo)

Quote from: 68w10 on January 28, 2014, 10:24:05 PM

Quote from: TexasCadet on January 28, 2014, 10:13:54 PM

Quote from: 68w10 on January 28, 2014, 10:12:09 PM

Quote from: TexasCadet on January 28, 2014, 09:58:06 PM
Texas Wing has them. Just about every flight is mixed. The only problems I have experienced are 1.) males and females just sometimes don't get along (it's natural), and 2.) they have different barracks assignments (not really a problem, but it can be troublesome when trying to get outside in the morning).

No, it's not.

Opposite genders don't get along sometimes, just like siblings don't sometimes. For example, in Texas, each flight has to do a skit pertaining to encampment. The males in my flight wanted to do something mimicking an inspection, while the females wanted to sing a song about encampment. Conflict might (and did) arise. Guess who got their way?

The issue at hand isn't gender, it's people.  Sometimes people don't get along, and people don't always agree.  It's completely unacceptable for us to simply throw our hands up in the air and exclaim "well if we were all the same gender, we'd be able to accomplish something."  If an individual is allowing another person's gender to affect their decision-making process, then that individual needs to be counselled and corrected.

Mixed-gender groups of people accomplish things all the time, it's absurd to suggest that "the norm" is that only same-sex groups can get anything done.   

-Sidenote: No one should have "gotten their way."  You're a flight, you work together as a team to achieve a common objective.  Strange, I think I read that somewhere...http://tinyurl.com/k84u7fo (http://tinyurl.com/k84u7fo)

Who said that only same-gender flights work? I've been saying that mixed-gender flights work. My example was one incident. As to who got their way, both males and females were satisfied with the final decision.

They also get more time to eat. and more things are considered hazing.

I just joined this forum, which I found totally by accident. I've been reading all these comments about how "wimpy" encampment has supposedly become, and I've seen a lot of familiar stories, complaints and situations I recognize from my own experiences as a cadet at encampment in the '80s (Ohio Wing).

First of all, I personally am on the fence about using "student." CAP cadets are between 13 (or is it 12?) and 18 (or is it 19?). They are "students" 9 months out of the year. Summer vacation is an escape from the academic life. CAP gives teenagers experience in leadership, and I believe they should be given the opportunity to be something a little more, I don't know, interesting, than having to be a student again for a week (in my day it was two) out of the summer. Encampment may be a bit more academic than it has been in years past, but it still looks and feels akin to basic training. They can be students when school starts again in the fall. For encampment week, let them be cadets, something they can take a little more pride in.

Re: Cursing, hazing, power-tripping, etc. I don't care how liberated you are, how you talk when you're hanging out with your friends, what kind of relationship you have with your parents, watch your language when you're in a position of authority over a bunch of kids, whether you're older than them, or their age. Some of them may come from households where every other word out of their parents' mouth is four letters long, or they may come from a strict conservative household where even the mildest epithet is prohibited. You are in mixed company, and you have a higher standard to aspire to anyway. And to the cadets who aren't in positions of authority, if you wouldn't talk that way in front of your parents, or teachers, or ministers, don't talk that way out in the field. I came home from my first encampment, talking about how I had to "sh**, shower and shave," and after about the second time I used that phrase, I got a stern talking to. I explained that that's what our flight sergeants would yell when we were getting up in the morning. Mom simply said, "You're home now. Watch your mouth."

Re: Sleep deprivation. Definitely not a good idea. I never knew what it was like to get a full night's sleep at encampment. I was a bad snorer and the cadet in the next bunk kicked me in the side about a dozen times a night. And as soon as I put my head on the pillow to sleep and closed my eyes, I instantly saw the back of another cadet's head. Even in my sleep I was in formation.

Someone mentioned having one's belongings dumped out or thrown out the window. This was a common occurrence at the encampments I went to. We had to have our bed made just so, our footlockers arranged just so. At barracks inspection time, if it wasn't "just so," we watched as the inspectors ripped the sheets off our beds and dumped our footlockers out at our feet. Other times we would come back to our barracks to find them trashed, with our sergeant screaming at us about how "while you dumb***es were out there playing Air Force, I was getting my *** chewed by the OD." (actual quote)

I can't imagine what it's like at encampment now, especially with kids so "plugged in" now. And there is a lot more talk about things being "PC" now than there was in my CAP days. How many demerits does a cadet get for texting?

Quote from: SemperVig on June 22, 2014, 09:40:55 PM
I can't imagine what it's like at encampment now, especially with kids so "plugged in" now. And there is a lot more talk about things being "PC" now than there was in my CAP days. How many demerits does a cadet get for texting?

None. 1) Not every encampment uses demerits. 2) phones are generally considered contraband and taken from the cadets (students and staff) at check in if they fail to leave them at home or with parents.

Quote from: arajca on June 22, 2014, 10:21:28 PM

Quote from: SemperVig on June 22, 2014, 09:40:55 PM
I can't imagine what it's like at encampment now, especially with kids so "plugged in" now. And there is a lot more talk about things being "PC" now than there was in my CAP days. How many demerits does a cadet get for texting?

None. 1) Not every encampment uses demerits. 2) phones are generally considered contraband and taken from the cadets (students and staff) at check in if they fail to leave them at home or with parents.

Whooo. I bet THAT goes over well with the kids today. ;-)

If it's not on the equipment list, you don't bring it.

Lindbergh got to Paris without GPS, the kid can go a week without the phone.

Demerits, dumping drawers, beds, etc., is just totally pointless.

I suspect the term "student" was chosen because no matter what else they chose, someone was bound to have used it. This gets rid of all those classifications and borderline derogatory terms, and allows the event to concentrate on it's intended purpose.

Having cadets worry about their stuff, having to spend time folding laundry over and over again, isn't part of the intention. That's crap invented by people who can't figure out a real way to lead people, so management by terror it is.

Never been to encampment.  The last one was filled out.  Sounds like fun. 

Quote from: SemperVig on June 22, 2014, 10:35:42 PM

Quote from: arajca on June 22, 2014, 10:21:28 PM

Quote from: SemperVig on June 22, 2014, 09:40:55 PM
I can't imagine what it's like at encampment now, especially with kids so "plugged in" now. And there is a lot more talk about things being "PC" now than there was in my CAP days. How many demerits does a cadet get for texting?

None. 1) Not every encampment uses demerits. 2) phones are generally considered contraband and taken from the cadets (students and staff) at check in if they fail to leave them at home or with parents.

Whooo. I bet THAT goes over well with the kids today. ;-)

They are told well in advance that these items are verboten. If they happen to "forget" they are reminded that it is in the handbook, they were given verbal instruction to not take them, and if they don't like it, tough. They can live a week without them.