Cadet with PPL

[FRG Cadet]

If you are a cadet who has earned their PPL , (and 200 hours) , can you give O-flights?

[lordmonar]

No...CAP O-Ride Pilots must be 21 or 18 with with a CFI

f. Cadet Orientation Pilot. The following requirements must be met to be designated as a cadet orientation pilot:
(1) Be an active CAP pilot at least 21 years of age (or 18 years of age with a valid FAA CFI certificate).
(2) CAP powered pilots must have a minimum of 200 hours (300 hours for AFROTC and AFJROTC orientation flights) total pilot-in-command (PIC) time in the category and class of airplane to be used.

[Eclipse]

Um, the answer is actually "yes", at least based on what you published above.

It only says member "CAP Pilot" and 18, not Senior member.

[jimmydeanno]

Um, the answer is actually "yes", at least based on what you published above.

It only says member and 18, not Senior member.

It doesn't say anything about "member" it says "CAP Pilot."  So, yes a cadet could provide orientation flights as an orientation flight pilot so long as they were 18 and had an FAA CFI Certificate with a minimum of 200 hour PIC.

[DNall]

which for practical purposes means no.

[cnitas]

Not sure about that. 
I have a cadet 19 yo Instrument rated pilot working on her CFI right now.
She hopes to have it finished by the beginning of the summer (She would be 20).

Now she would not be a cadet o-pilot for long, but it is possible.

[swamprat86]

There is also the CPPT issue about leaving cadets unsupervised.  So, even if they are qualified, there may be other factors that would not make it possible.  This is the same issue about having an 18 yo cadet ground team leader with a team of only cadets.  They are qualified but still need SM supervision.

[davidsinn]

There is also the CPPT issue about leaving cadets unsupervised.  So, even if they are qualified, there may be other factors that would not make it possible.  This is the same issue about having an 18 yo cadet ground team leader with a team of only cadets.  They are qualified but still need SM supervision.

What about that Puerto Rican all cadet aircrew that was in the Volunteer not too long back...? If you're that worried about CPPT stick a smallish SM in the back seat.

[lordmonar]

Um, the answer is actually "yes", at least based on what you published above.

It only says member "CAP Pilot" and 18, not Senior member.

He said he was a cadet with a PPL....ergo he is under 21 and does not have CFI.

Also I seem to remember somewhere a rule about no all cadet crews....don't know if that was a draft or just something that was being discussed.

I have also heard the CPP argument....but I think that is kind of stretch in my thinking YMMV.

[DNall]

Not sure about that. 
I have a cadet 19 yo Instrument rated pilot working on her CFI right now.
She hopes to have it finished by the beginning of the summer (She would be 20).

Now she would not be a cadet o-pilot for long, but it is possible.

Which applies to what, six people in CAP? So again, for practical purposes, no.

There is also the CPPT issue about leaving cadets unsupervised.  So, even if they are qualified, there may be other factors that would not make it possible.  This is the same issue about having an 18 yo cadet ground team leader with a team of only cadets.  They are qualified but still need SM supervision.

Cadets over 18 are required to complete CPPT. They are bound by that policy in the same way SMs are, and equally capable of supervising cadets. The law/courts/jury all look at that over 18 individual as an adult, regardless if we classify them as a cadet or not. They are for cadet supervision purposes an adult.

[Ned]

Cadets over 18 are required to complete CPPT. They are bound by that policy in the same way SMs are, and equally capable of supervising cadets. The law/courts/jury all look at that over 18 individual as an adult, regardless if we classify them as a cadet or not. They are for cadet supervision purposes an adult.

Strong non-concur.

While the courts will view anyone who has attained the age of majority as an adult, that does not mean that "18 and over cadets" can supervise other cadets on the same basis as a senior member.

A senior is required to be present at all cadet activities, even if all of the cadets are over 18.

Think of it like high school.  Some 12th-graders may be 18, but there still has to be a teacher on the field trip.

[swamprat86]

I agree.  If they won't allow FO to have more responsibility because of their age/experience, why would it be OK to have a cadet, regardless of age, be responsible for not only flying an aircraft, but the safety of another cadet without SM supervision.  I would think the Wing Safety and Operations Officers and the Wing Commander would have severe reservations about OKing a cadet to be an O-pilot under those conditions.

[cnitas]

I would think the Wing Safety and Operations Officers and the Wing Commander would have severe reservations about OKing a cadet to be an O-pilot under those conditions.

Why?
You are talking about a FAA rated CFI now, not just a random old cadet.

Which applies to what, six people in CAP? So again, for practical purposes, no.

Obviously this is a rare occurance.  What the OP was asking is if it was possible, not if it was normal.

[CASH172]

Something I always wondered about this rule was if one needed 200 PIC time even if they were a CFI.  I'm intending on being a CFI at 19, but won't have 200 PIC time at that point. 

[Eclipse]

I agree that for the purposes of CAP, anyone with the word "CADET" on their ID card is not considered an adult within the program, and should never be charged with supervising other cadets alone.

That's part of the point of the 18-21 year old situation.  You relinquish some of the rights you might have in similar situations at that age in return for access to opportunities you wouldn't have access to as a Senor Member.

In this case the CPPT issues are not insurmountable, though that would be a subjective Wing CC call.  A lot of activities function under a "no cadet out of sight policy", however that isn't actually the rule - only that the activity itself be supervised as per 52-10 / 16 (one senior member for normal activities, two for overnight, no gender bias).

I could certainly see a situation where, to foster the program, a Wing CC allows that the activity itself is being supervised by a senior member, and the pattern rides are an extension of that activity.  That obviously is a "great idea" until something "bad" happens, at which point everyone will be asking the obvious questions.

There's also the general CYA rule a lot of pilots live by that they don't like to fly with a cadet alone.

At the end of the day, a highspeed cadet pilot could be providing o-rides to lots of other cadets, and its a simple thing to find a Senior member non-pilot who can ride GIB.

[jimmydeanno]

Something I always wondered about this rule was if one needed 200 PIC time even if they were a CFI.  I'm intending on being a CFI at 19, but won't have 200 PIC time at that point. 

Yes, you need the 200 hours.  The CFI rating is just an extra hurdle for cadets who want to be O-Flight Pilots (Since a 20 year old with 300 hours is much less capable than a 30 year old with 200...)

[swamprat86]

Why?
You are talking about a FAA rated CFI now, not just a random old cadet.

The rating is not the issue, it's having a cadet as an o-pilot.  Listen, as a former cadet, I think we are sometimes too restrictive in what we allow cadets to do today, but I have to say I am not comfortable about this topic. 

I would also think that there are probably some parents that would be concerned about another cadet flying their cadet regardless of their ability.

[DNall]

Cadets over 18 are required to complete CPPT. They are bound by that policy in the same way SMs are, and equally capable of supervising cadets. The law/courts/jury all look at that over 18 individual as an adult, regardless if we classify them as a cadet or not. They are for cadet supervision purposes an adult.

Strong non-concur.

While the courts will view anyone who has attained the age of majority as an adult, that does not mean that "18 and over cadets" can supervise other cadets on the same basis as a senior member.

A senior is required to be present at all cadet activities, even if all of the cadets are over 18.

Think of it like high school.  Some 12th-graders may be 18, but there still has to be a teacher on the field trip.

That's per CAP regs, which are drawn from outside law. It is not per the outside law. It is just a narrow technicality that CAP has chosen not to address. And that's appropriate cause an over 18 cadet may not be the ranking cadet, which then creates a problem.

However, for legal purposes, an over 18 cadet is viewed by the law & CPPT as an adult in supervision of cadets. IE - it is not inappropriate to allow that situation under the overall responsibility/oversight of a senior.

However, that does not preclude a cadet o-pilot or GTL. The reg requires senior supervision of the activity, not every little facet of it. I would argue the interpretation of that reg allows me as a senior to be on the ground as a project officer & send a cadet o-pilot up w/o an adult, just the same as a cadet instructing a class to other cadets in a room down the hall from seniors.

[Ned]

That's per CAP regs, which are drawn from outside law. It is not per the outside law. It is just a narrow technicality that CAP has chosen not to address. [. . .]

However, for legal purposes, an over 18 cadet is viewed by the law & CPPT as an adult in supervision of cadets. IE - it is not inappropriate to allow that situation under the overall responsibility/oversight of a senior.

Ahh, no.  Not even close.

Cadets certainly supervise cadets.  That's is an important part of our program as cadets learn to lead.

But CAP cadets will never be viewed the same as an adult senior member supervisor by any court. (I do have some expertise in this area.)

Again, think of the high school analogy.  No 12-grader (I'm trying to avoid the use of the word "senior" in this context.  ) would be ever viewed by the courts as adult supervisors at a school activity, even if she/he were 18.    They are students; no more, no less. 

Kind of like CAP cadets.

However, that does not preclude a cadet o-pilot or GTL. The reg requires senior supervision of the activity, not every little facet of it. I would argue the interpretation of that reg allows me as a senior to be on the ground as a project officer & send a cadet o-pilot up w/o an adult, just the same as a cadet instructing a class to other cadets in a room down the hall from seniors.

On this we agree.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Eclipse]

However, for legal purposes, an over 18 cadet is viewed by the law & CPPT as an adult in supervision of cadets.

Nope, sorry.

The law can say whatever it wants to, but as long as our regs are more strict, what the law wants to offer as an option is immaterial.

If CAP defined an "adult" within its program as 35, then that's what the program would consider an adult, period.