Do you have a preference? Of course, you need to have a basis for it, something other than "I've never used XXXX before". :)
I've used both, and prefer the Tracker for its size, I haven't done any maximum range searches with it and the L-Per at the same time, so I don't know which has the best practical range. The small size means your body blocks some of the signal, which takes out some of the guesswork involved with the L-Per "is it in front of me, or behind me?".
the question will be how does the "new-almost ready for delivery Little L-Per" compare to the Tracker...
Inquiring minds want to know....
when us little guys at the bottom of the pecking chain finally get the new beauty, I'll let you know. ;)
Quote from: whatevah on May 19, 2005, 03:05:51 AM
when us little guys at the bottom of the pecking chain finally get the new beauty, I'll let you know. ;)
And just what makes you so LITTLE?
So far as i can tell, we are ALL waiting in the same line.
Delays, Delays and Excuses is all I hear from L-Tronics.
With the revolution in GPS enabled beacons these may just fall away in a few years..
Well, that new 406 beacon is only good if the pilots register them, if that's not done, then we'll still be doing the same searches we do now.
As for preference, when I first used the tracker, I hated it 'cause I wasn't taught how to use it correctly. After being taught correctly and having a refresher a while ago, I absolutely love it. It takes all of the guess work out of it. Just do a 360* turn and you'll know where it is. The L-per in the other hand takes to much time to determine the direction, nevermind the time it takes to set the thing up.
Quote from: Horn229 on May 21, 2005, 02:03:10 PM
Well, that new 406 beacon is only good if the pilots register them, if that's not done, then we'll still be doing the same searches we do now.
In all honesty, how many pilots are going to shell out the dollars for one of them and NOT take the 2 minutes to go online and register it?
There are a great many pilots who scared of this new fangled thing called The Internet. There are some who haven't got a clue about what a computer is.
I was in a senior squadron for two years and I saw this first hand. Threading an elephant through the eye of a needle was easier than getting some of these pilots - many with exceptional flying skills - to use the online access to National.
The Tracker is garbage. Plain and simple. If you really know how to use the L-Per, there is NO guesswork at all. Also, with just a little guage and several frequency selections, as well as two different modes for recieving signals, the L-Per is definately the unit with the most power. I've proven in the field that a well trained UDF team with an L-Per can out-locate beacons faster and more accurately with L-Pers instead Trackers and some really fancy and expensive pistol-shaped DF unit that Wyoming wing has. Especially when you're dealing with wide, open spaces and long distances, as well as box canyons, valleys, and the like.
Quote from: Schmidty06 on May 23, 2005, 09:35:11 AM
The Tracker is garbage. Plain and simple. If you really know how to use the L-Per, there is NO guesswork at all. Also, with just a little guage and several frequency selections, as well as two different modes for recieving signals, the L-Per is definately the unit with the most power. I've proven in the field that a well trained UDF team with an L-Per can out-locate beacons faster and more accurately with L-Pers instead Trackers and some really fancy and expensive pistol-shaped DF unit that Wyoming wing has. Especially when you're dealing with wide, open spaces and long distances, as well as box canyons, valleys, and the like.
Garbage might be a hard word for it.
But I am holding out for the NEW L-Per...
Quote from: Schmidty06 on May 23, 2005, 09:35:11 AM
The Tracker is garbage. Plain and simple.
how many actual missions have you used the Tracker on, and how many have you used the L-Per on?
The big antennas (121.5 and 243 masts) on the L-Per can receive the signal from 360 degrees. so, there is a little guesswork needed to figure out where the signal is coming from, especially when dealing with bounces. the small size of the Tracker removes that, since your body blocks signals from behind you.
Quote from: abysmal on May 23, 2005, 03:48:37 AM
Quote from: Horn229 on May 21, 2005, 02:03:10 PM
Well, that new 406 beacon is only good if the pilots register them, if that's not done, then we'll still be doing the same searches we do now.
In all honesty, how many pilots are going to shell out the dollars for one of them and NOT take the 2 minutes to go online and register it?
You'd be surprised. In 2003 I was on a mission and tracked a 406 ELT to a Boeing hangar, whiched happened to be in a nice new G4. The beacon was unregistered.
Quote from: Horn229 on May 24, 2005, 03:15:27 AM
You'd be surprised. In 2003 I was on a mission and tracked a 406 ELT to a Boeing hangar, whiched happened to be in a nice new G4. The beacon was unregistered.
Fair enough.
Was it a new bird, or an older one with a new ELT in it?
pretty sure it was an almost brand-new G4. it was in the DuPont (yes, that DuPont) hangar, actually. :-D they were claiming "no it can't be ours". a mechanic went into the cockpit, we heard a "click" and the signal went dead. he came out and said "no, it's not on". ::)
Quote from: whatevah on May 24, 2005, 05:47:12 PM
pretty sure it was an almost brand-new G4. it was in the DuPont (yes, that DuPont) hangar, actually. :-D they were claiming "no it can't be ours". a mechanic went into the cockpit, we heard a "click" and the signal went dead. he came out and said "no, it's not on". ::)
How cheesy can you get....
Actually with the L-Per, you switch it into Recieve mode and you get a strongest signal, the signal is then directly to the left of the unit. No guessing at all. You either listen for the strongest signal (from the left) or the null (signal from the right) With the Tracker, your body doesn't block enough of the signal (nor is it precise enough) to get a true null or have the bits and pieces to give you a precise direction that the signal is coming from (like the DF mode on the L-Per).
I have 4 actual finds with the L-Per 11 sorties with it, 3 SAREXs with it, and I have 5 SAREXs with the Tracker. I've tried both on a number of occaisions. I even have a tracker sitting here in my house. I go out and drop a practice beacon in the park down the block from time to time for practice and I still havn't been able to figure out how people can get even remotely close to a beacon with it.
Ergo, I see the Tracker as garbage. However, I deal with what I've got.
Quote from: Schmidty06 on May 25, 2005, 08:40:55 PMI go out and drop a practice beacon in the park down the block from time to time for practice and I still havn't been able to figure out how people can get even remotely close to a beacon with it.
using manual mode or automatic? manual is the way to go.
Might make for a fun FTX.
Take a couple different units and a single target and see how the two opperators do on locating the target.
Try it 2-3 times in the course of a day and see if one of the units comes out with a clear advantage over the other one.
the hard part will be factoring out the skill level of the user. I can accurately track signals 25% further away than some people can, with the same L-Per unit.
agreed.
You would need to find two people, both who are in love with their respective units and fully competent in using them.
Quote from: whatevah on May 25, 2005, 09:23:38 PM
Quote from: Schmidty06 on May 25, 2005, 08:40:55 PMI go out and drop a practice beacon in the park down the block from time to time for practice and I still havn't been able to figure out how people can get even remotely close to a beacon with it.
using manual mode or automatic? manual is the way to go.
Manual. I don't like machines taking me out of the picture ;)
Quote from: abysmal on May 25, 2005, 10:04:44 PM
Might make for a fun FTX.
Take a couple different units and a single target and see how the two opperators do on locating the target.
Try it 2-3 times in the course of a day and see if one of the units comes out with a clear advantage over the other one.
Done it, myself and the L-Per come out on top repeatedly. Every time that we've done it, actually.
Quote from: whatevah on May 25, 2005, 10:11:27 PM
the hard part will be factoring out the skill level of the user. I can accurately track signals 25% further away than some people can, with the same L-Per unit.
This is true, however it is just about impossible to find anyone this side of the Mississippi River, or otherwise within reasonable drive times to use the Tracker for a reference. I myself know how to use the L-Per to identify signal bounce and correct for it, while Tracker and fancy Tracker look-a-like users keep going on in the same direction like they're in DF mode on an L-Per, headed in a straight line directly away from a beacon (kind of the opposite of what they're supposed to do, right?). With recieve mode on the L-Per, though, you can tell almost immediately which direction the signal is coming from.
As with both units, training is key. I had a class years ago from Bruce Gordon that builds the units. Once you understand it, it works far above the Tracker and the old unit is better than the new. I have seen so many people not understand how the l-per works.
The old L-per uses a beam antenna on a mast that gives the unit about 3db of gain.
On DF mode, the unit WILL tell the user if the signal is left or right of center and fore or aft form the user's position.
The receiver sensitivity is far superior than the tracker and the old crystal unit is better than the new.
L-per hands down better than anything else out there, add the L-Per optional beam antenna for even superior ears!
I have an old school crystal based L-per, New school solid state L-per, tracker and Av radio.
My preference is the new l-per because as mentioned before even if you've never tracked an elt before there is little guess work with that unit. No more adjusting the sensitivity, volume etc to track the elt. plus you get a signal strength meter, and the ability to plug the unit into an external antenna on your vehicle.
The tracker used to be the unit of choice for once you got close, due to several shortfalls in the l-per units. but with the new unit most of these problems have been addressed.
The other option is the Pro-find which I have had no experience with but apparently it is an acceptable substitute to the l-per??? anyone know about it?
Hmm, didn't realize they had a new version of the L-per. Looks good.
If Pro Find is the one from ACR...good for close in "man overboard" and that's about it.
The ProFind is made by Seimac. I had a chance to field test a pre-production model three years ago. My reaction was that it had a future, with a few mods. The drawback was the MSRP of about $1400 for the DF and practice beacon. Don't know what the actual price is.
Link to the ProFind. (http://www.seimac.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=49)
Seimac, a Canadian company, is based in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, with a sale office and warehouse in the United States. Seimac is part of the Cobham Avionics & Survelliance Division, a member of the Cobham plc group of companies, a UK company.
This is from the December 2006 Cobham newsletter.
The US Air Force Auxiliary Civil Air Patrol (CAP), which performs 95% of the continental US inland search and rescue missions, has agreed to a contract for over 100 Seimac ProFIND Search and Rescue Direction Finder (SAR DF) kits. This is a follow-up to last year's order of 60 kits. CAP recently conducted field testing of the hand-held direction finders, which confirmed that the ProFIND SAR DF was the most suitable kit.
"This direction finder proved to be the easiest to use, requiring minimal training for our personnel and is designed for all-weather operation," said Colonel John W Desmarais, Deputy Director of Operations for CAP. "It also gives our search and rescue teams two detection modes to use, which provides more effective and efficient searching. As with any search and rescue mission, the quicker you find the survivors, the better off they will be."
So where are these?
Mike
Where are these. Come on...don't you know???
60 units, that works out to:
1 each Wing Commanders
1 each Reigon Commanders
1 each for Tony, John and their close friends.
When our wing commander show up on a mission in his new CAP Ford 4x4, he pulls out his new df gear...didn't you see him?
Ask the folks from Florida and California, I am sure they field tested it since they would seem to be the experts.
I have neither seen nor heard of any of these units in CAWG. I guess FL and TX got them all. ;)
What? Not Iowa, with the close-knit ties to HEADCAP? ;)
Shutting sarcasm generator off. . .
I've seen a few of the ProFind units, DE Wing got 4 or 5 of them. they all come as a kit, one practice transmitter, and one tracking unit. not too bad, but the new L-Per is definately superior. I still like the old L-Per, though. nice and realiable. The Tracker is neat, but the range isn't as good. a lot easier for airport checks, though.
There goes my therory that the wing commanders have them.
I'm sure there is a good chance of that, but... not in DE Wing at least. they're usually pretty good about getting equipment issued to the active ES members.
There is a "Learning Lab" on the ProFind scheduled for National Boards in August. Lab leader is Paul Steward, SAR Products Program Director for Seimac. This is supposed to be hands-on training with the ProFind.
Paul retired from the USCG SAR office a few years ago. He was one of the major proponents of 406 MHz beacons, and led the push to get 121.5 EPIRBs banned well before the Sarsat cutoff in 2009.
Mike
no conflict there...what ever happened to Frosty Morgan? Is he working for L-Tronics?
You can read about him here:
Scott Morgan and PROCON (http://tinyurl.com/23qdkq)
PROCON Inc, a Tennessee company based in Knoxville, is developing the world's first private search and rescue service center in conjunction with United States Air Force. Dr. Scott Morgan, Vice-President of PROCON in charge of the GES division stated that this is a perfect application of a Global Emergency System (GES) solution as it provides global communication to search and rescue responders.
Among other things, PROCON rents/leases PLBs. To take the load off AFRCC, PROCON now operates the first Rescue Sub-Center. Alerts from PROCON registered PLBs are routed from the USMCC directly to PROCON, bypassing AFRCC. In its role as an RSC, PROCON, a private company, reports to AFRCC. PROCON has made another RSC related proposal to AFRCC and others, but the reception has been rather mixed from the others involved.
Mike
That's great...I am sure that takes a huge load off the AFRCC. I am sure they do that for free. I can't wait til I retire and can become a high paid consultant. I am going to sell private ELTs and see if I can contract to search for them. Who do I need to talk to at the AFRCC to get my foot in the door?
As I stated in another post on L-pers. The new unit is superior hands down. We got quick finds the day we got it in. Love it. The digital frequency strength meter is invaluable in narrowing in on the target.
Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on August 02, 2007, 07:53:33 PM
As I stated in another post on L-pers. The new unit is superior hands down. We got quick finds the day we got it in. Love it. The digital frequency strength meter is invaluable in narrowing in on the target.
You had more than I signal at the same time? How did that work?
That was a misprint, it should have read "find" . We had an elt going off at our home airport in the big fbo maintenance hanger. Our building is about 2000 ft away. We were able to use the direction finder to take us to the hanger and then when we got inside by watching the digital frequency meter rise we found the right airplane in a matter of minutes. Been to that same hanger once since and also found the elt going off on the bench, we walked right to it.
At another airport we found the right hanger the first try among rows of metal hangers, using once again the frequency meter. I have used it at night at a small airfield and it led us right to a jump plane where the elt was going off. This is a good piece of equipment.
Hmm, I wonder what the states think about the AFRCC bypassing them and sending alerts about SAR events to a private company? I hope this company is alerting the state to take the mission when they call and find out there is an actual problem.
QuoteHmm, I wonder what the states think about the AFRCC bypassing them and sending alerts about SAR events to a private company?
AFRCC doesn't bypass the states. The system bypasses AFRCC. This is by signed contract between PROCON, NOAA and USAF.
PROCON PLB activation ->Sarsat ->USMCC ->PROCON ->State, if distress
Other PLBs, ELTs activation ->Sarsat ->USMCC ->AFRCC ->State, as required
Mike
and Mike...if you were missing and deployed a 406 beacon, which system would be faster?
I personally love the new lper, works great on hangers (especially t-hangers) and really active airports like San Francisco when you may not have to much room to work in the vincinity. Oh and that digital signal strength readout is like winning the lottery hit the money everytime. If you learn how to read the digital strength numbers you can interpet the distance. Its almost like TomTom, it will take you right there. I'd buy another one no questions asked... If you havent tried the new cheese bar l-per boy your missing out...
If the "Tracker" is the newer orange L-Per, I'm not a fan of it. That's only because when I was taught to use it, I didn't understand, and never got answers to my questions. Nothing against it if it does its job, but I'd rather walk around with the Little L-Per instead. Call me old fashioned.
Quote from: SJESOFFICER on September 19, 2007, 04:11:45 PM
I personally love the new lper, works great on hangers (especially t-hangers) and really active airports like San Francisco when you may not have to much room to work in the vincinity. Oh and that digital signal strength readout is like winning the lottery hit the money everytime. If you learn how to read the digital strength numbers you can interpet the distance. Its almost like TomTom, it will take you right there. I'd buy another one no questions asked... If you havent tried the new cheese bar l-per boy your missing out...
Yes... but... you're in California.
Take it anywhere COLD (I.E. like in Wisconsin) and the display dies, and it doesn't detect anything unless you're 3 feet from the ELT. If it is warm, it is OK. But, anything below 35 degrees, (which is a good chunk of the year here) and you're better off using a cadet with braces and some tin-foil to pick up the signal.
Definitely a warm weather piece of equipment. Now... the Old Little L-Per can handle the sub-zero temps just fine.
New orange Little L-Per = big waste of money if you're not in the tropics.
sounds like it needs some love and a coat... that kinda sucks...maybe in the car but I guess outside kinda too cold... does your cell phone display do that too in the cold or anyother electronic equipment?
Quote from: ♠♠Recruiter♠♠ on September 19, 2007, 06:17:28 PM
If the "Tracker" is the newer orange L-Per...
Between this thread and the "The new yellow tracker/L-Per" thread, there are four DF units that CAP has being discussed.
*L-Tronics L-Per LH-16 - the "classic" DF unit - blue/white box with wood antenna frame
*L-Tronics "new" L-Per - the wide yellow/orange, all digital DF, "cheese bar"
*Seimac Pro-Find - yellow/orange handheld unit with black antennas sticking out the sides
*Tracker Radio Systems Tracker FTV - small, black/gray DF with fold-out "circuit board" antennas
Mike
I like the Lil' L-Per but I REALLY like the Tracker. I have found that if you use it in the "auto" mode it does not seem to work too well. Might as well go back to the L-Per. Though, in the "Manual" mode I have found the Tracker to be far superior to the L-Per.
Just my opinion! :)
Quote from: SJESOFFICER on September 19, 2007, 07:21:02 PM
sounds like it needs some love and a coat... that kinda sucks...maybe in the car but I guess outside kinda too cold... does your cell phone display do that too in the cold or anyother electronic equipment?
Lol... and a cup of hot chocolate.
I have used my hand held GPS and Cell Phone with no issues (display, function, etc) in conditions that basically shut the L-Tronics Block 'O Cheese down.
sounds like they need to make an model for cold weather...but I think the lper company is based out of CA so I think they are a little biased...
*Written on Mobile PDA Sorry for All and Any Mistakes of Spelling/Punctuation etc.*
Quote from: TankerT on September 19, 2007, 08:23:00 PM
Quote from: SJESOFFICER on September 19, 2007, 07:21:02 PM
sounds like it needs some love and a coat... that kinda sucks...maybe in the car but I guess outside kinda too cold... does your cell phone display do that too in the cold or anyother electronic equipment?
Lol... and a cup of hot chocolate.
I have used my hand held GPS and Cell Phone with no issues (display, function, etc) in conditions that basically shut the L-Tronics Block 'O Cheese down.
Perhaps some resewing of the "self heated" battery-powered socks?
I know that there is a new device coming for CAP members designed for ES work that is a phased array versus yagi antenna system like the tracker and L-tronics df devices. The sensitivity is awesome. The first production models is coming out in Mid Oct 2007, it is called the Tigerstrike. My experience with it has been outstanding.
Quote from: sark9s on September 30, 2007, 06:39:58 PM
I know that there is a new device coming for CAP members designed for ES work that is a phased array versus yagi antenna system like the tracker and L-tronics df devices. The sensitivity is awesome. The first production models is coming out in Mid Oct 2007, it is called the Tigerstrike. My experience with it has been outstanding.
Do you have a link to any info about this Tigerstrike?
I dont believe anything has been published yet
Quote from: SarDragon on July 11, 2007, 12:27:10 AM
I have neither seen nor heard of any of these units in CAWG. I guess FL and TX got them all. ;)
KSWG got 3 of them, all are deployed to squadrons.
Does anyone have anything new on the "Tigerstrike" people are referring to. We are equiping a new unit and I want to get the best I can. Also wanted to compare prices!! Internet link would be sweet.
The tiger strike is not on the market yet. the desing, and demo units are being worked through. I would expect a beta release on a limited scale early 2008
So I was out on a mission the other day and we had a guy from another squadron go out with us. We brought our L-Per and a handheld scanner and he brought his Tracker. Once we finally got an ELT signal we went out and DF'd it. With my handheld Radio Shack scanner, I was able to go directly to the source with no problems, whereas the guy with the Tracker headed off in the other direction because that's where his Tracker told him to go. So once again, I'll choose my basic scanner with body blocking over a fancy new DF unit. And since we were in a town, we didn't even bother with the L-Per which probably would've been useless with all the reflections.
Here is the web site for what the USCG uses on many of the boats
http://www.dopsys.com/index.htm
I want one
You really cannot compare a system for use at sea with terrsestrial DF system. The sea, is, as we scientists say, mostly flat. The man overboard systems using crappy Yagi antenna designs can work reasonably well at sea, but are nearly worthless on land, due to multipath signals, source and detection being at widely different altitudes, phase products induced by intervening objects, and basically, not having line of sight.
The time distance of arrival system can be very very accurate, and gain antennae can be used. Further, the antennae should be spaced as widely as is practical to provide the largest degree of phase shift. The Good old-fashioned L-per does a great job in this regard. Experienced users can quickly distinguish multipath signals from direct signals by the quality of the received signal, and there is no fore-and-aft ambiguity. I think that most of the DF systems out there we have played with to "replace" the L-per are suitable for ramp checks, and you are less likely to put your eyes out with the antennae, but they are suitable primarily for ocean direction finding.
Doppler systems are wonderful. Expensive and complicated, but wonderful. They are also non-existant for hand-held use. ( Actually,, L-pers are kind of Doppler systems) The PIN diode switching between all those antennae at such a fast rate contribute to incomplete on-times, resulting in lower antenna efficiency. Since Doppler antennae are usually just a broad-band whip, they are not particularly good receive antennae anyway. They work best for transmitters whose receivers antennae are in the same orientation, so please tell pilots to try and keep their planes right side up when they crash. Also, Doppler systems use FM receivers, and it is a bit harder to make sensitive FM receiver than an AM receiver.
Other than a rotating gain antenna, like a Yagi or a Cube, nothing outperforms the basic L-Per design for sensitivity, bearing resolution, and cost.
Just my 2C
Major Lord
Quote from: jeders on November 18, 2007, 04:17:25 PM
So I was out on a mission the other day and we had a guy from another squadron go out with us. We brought our L-Per and a handheld scanner and he brought his Tracker. Once we finally got an ELT signal we went out and DF'd it. With my handheld Radio Shack scanner, I was able to go directly to the source with no problems, whereas the guy with the Tracker headed off in the other direction because that's where his Tracker told him to go. So once again, I'll choose my basic scanner with body blocking over a fancy new DF unit. And since we were in a town, we didn't even bother with the L-Per which probably would've been useless with all the reflections.
Agree to the MAX! I love the L-Per, but a body block can do wonders!