Newbee Senior Uniforms?

[RADIOMAN015]

Wow, is all I've got to say about all the uniform combinations, as a new senior member I get to choose from     I sort of like the blue/grey golf shirt with the emblem & grey pants, maybe the white shirt & grey pants (cause with the blue pants you have to wear a hat), and perhaps the blue utility uniform.  I still can't figure out though why we would wear BDU's during search missions, basically everyone is wearing an orange vest.  Personally, I'd like to see just a one piece coveralls or jump suits in international orange color with some Velcro so that you could just put on your rank, US Civil Air Patrol, etc..    take a look at this site for some examples:  http://coverallstore.com/coveralls.htm  --    Well I know you are all saying OH another uniform... I keep telling my boss at work that I'll be backing my vehicle into my parking space & when I get the page I'll be zipping up my one piece response suit!!!!...  But you've got to admit wearing camouflaged BDU's during a s&R mission doesn't seem to make much sense... Comments?? 

[IceNine]

Ahh yes the good v.s evil camo debate.  We currently have a one piece utility uniform that is authorized for just what you are talking about.  However, try being in out in the field on a winter day and all you get is what you can layer under your jumpsuit, or a suitable jacket.  The BDU's hold a certain safety value in that we can not only wear the m65 jackets with liners we can also wear gore-tex, and if you take a look at the ECWCS you can adapt to any type of weather.

The second half of that is that those jumpsuits are not made to withstand any type of snags. So you get out into the field, snag your uni on a thorn bush, and without ripstop your done.  So there are other factors other than the fact that the BDU's are not all that visible to take into account.

[arajca]

Another problem with orange coveralls is that many prison work crews wear orange coveralls. Even many of the prison wildfire crews wear orange Nomex instead of the standard yellow or yellow/green.

[Flying Pig]

HA

You stole my thunder!  We'd be taken down at gun point by the law wearing orange jumpsuits! 

[SARMedTech]

I believe that yellow/green color is called International Yellow and its THE color for emergency services of all types through out the world. Though I cant imagine having to look at a whole field full of guys and gals in International Yellow jumpsuits. Also, i agree that while the jump suit can be used in the field, it makes it very hard to adjust for changing temperature, weather conditions, etc. But...since it is a CAP distinctive, couldnt you put anything over it in as many or as few layers as you need/want? I recall reading about most CAP distinctives that any civilian outerwear is authorized. Darn. guess I cant wear my USCG windbreaker with my BBDUs. I do love that thing. And for the record, I think that the cami BDUs should be done away with. Its one less uniform, would eliminate the conflict about who can wear what any BDU gear you can get in cami, you can get in blue. But here again, military logic....apparently it doesnt matter that there is absolutely no reason for us to be wearing cami at all. I wear the BBDUs and then all of my non-clothing gear (packs, etc) is either blue or "tactical black." Plus I think all of our technicolor bling looks a little less silly on solid blue. Ive seen members of the public laugh at some cadets and SMs with all that stuff on their camis.

[SARMedTech]

PS- I think its a CAP-USAF sick joke that the only cover allowed with the greys is the ball cap. Ive seen this on members and it looks unbelievably stupid and ugly. Not that there ever is, but whats the rational for us not being able to wear flight or service covers with the greys?

[Pumbaa]

It's funny, I never did get the idea of wearing BDU's.. designed to camouflage you... then go right ahead and add blaze orange vest over that to UN-camouflage you.

And yes I understand many wanting to look like mama blue...

When I was shooting combat handgun competitions, I wore ripstop blue BDU pants.  All the practicality of the woodland.. Personally I thought they looked cooler   Now granted it does look more LEO then A.F.

And yes, just to reiterate, there is a profusion of confusion when it comes to uniforms.

I'm thinking.. How about distinctives.. ie. I can maintain my fat and fuzziness, by wearing blue BDUs, Blue flight suit, and then if they changes grooming, Blue TPU pants, white aviator...

Here you have a uniformity of color, (theme) only 3 uniforms that cover all aspects of the mission, all inclusive.  It does move us away from the A.F. in terms of uniform, but at this point CAP is already doing that. 

Your head gear is Flight cap, BBDU cap, or optional blue ball cap for the flight suit or BDU.  Service cap is optional or on full dress parade/ etc.

Simplified?  possibly, but again it does move CAP away from the Real <A#reg> Air Force.

For me, I think looking like the <#reg>  Air Force is less of a worry, than having a uniform look, inexpensive, consistant appearance in the public.  As well as maintaining maintenence and practicality.

I am sure I have spoken anthema to many of the uniform junkies and uniform bigots here.  But there is a point to take what we already have in 39-1 and bring it all together.

[SARMedTech]

Maybe this is what you were saying but how about?

1. Blue BDUs...no more camo.  Boonies are authorized (oh god, someone might think we are SWAT...oh wait...no weapons...whew)

2. Blue and whites with groomed facial hair authorized. Flight cover.

3. The new blue service dress for formal/ ceremonial. Service cover

There...see how easy. Three uniforms in your closet (except maybe more than one set of BDUs) and alot more money in your wallet and perhaps UNIFORMS might get alot less air time on the forums and we could focus on the stupid stuff, like ES, CP and members not having to take out a home mortgage loan to fund their volunteering. I say we let John McCain pay for our uniforms. Or maybe even "W", surely he knows what the Air Force is all about...or does he?

[BillB]

Very interesting,  most of the posts about getting rid of BDUs are from Seniors, many of whom can't wear the regulation BDU. What everyone seems to be forgetting is the CAP Cadet program relationship with the Air Force. Cadets prefer to wear BDUs to blues to start with. The BDU uniform is designed for work in the field. The majority of Seniors do NOT work in the field environment. How many Seniors work with Cadets at Encampment where the BDU is the standard uniform. Almost all of the comments about getting rid of BDUs relate to the multitude of available Senior uniforms. Or the wearing of the camouflage uniform for Ground teams. The blue BDU is just as hard to spot from 1000 ft as the camouflage BDU. Even the reflective orange vest is hard to see in the piney woods of the Southeast. So what is the answer? Make the blue BDU the required uniform for seniors and the regular BDU the required uniform for cadets? Of fifty Seniors taking part in a SAR mision, how many wear flight suits, or blues, or the many corporate variations? Perhaps five would be wearing BDUs in any form. Many Seniors never have need of BDUs when working Base operations, flight crews etc. So why the ranting about getting rid of a uniform Seniors normally don't wear?

[SARMedTech]

If you could site your sources for saying that most Seniors dont wear or have need of BDUs and that most do not participate in operations where BDUs are needed, it would be greatly appreciated. Im not former military, nor do I pay much attention to the military, but are there many military organizations within the US that still wear woodland? I know the USCGs Port Security Specialists do (or did) and that one really makes no sense. I bet alot less folks would be wanting to wear camo if went to the ill-fated blue woodland of USAF fame. Lets face it, those passionate about woodland BDUs are indeed so passionate because then theres no question that you just might sorta be part time volunteer spending alot of your own money on battle rattle associated with the military. Furthermore, the members I have seen wearing BBDUs seem for some reason to know how to wear them...how to blouse their boots and roll sleeves and an awful lot of our camo fans look like they are wearing daddys old uniform for halloween. Also, ive been doing EMS and rescue for awhile and have never had anyone tell me they couldnt see my international yellow at 500 yards regardless of terrain. And for the love of mike if you are in charge of cadets and they are wearing BDUs that hang down past their hands, make them get them altered or roll their sleeves. Talk about unprofessional looking.

PS-BBDUs are reg, just not USAF reg and ive seen alot of folks who dont know how to wear BDUs properly if they are blue, woodland or hot pink. I am all for BDUs. There just is no VALID reason we need camo. You think the AF cares if we look more like them. If they did they wouldnt allow all the technicolor all over the BDUs.  Talk about tacky.

[Pumbaa]

BillB you have a point "ranting about getting rid of a uniform Seniors normally don't wear".

The main issue with me is the fat and fuzzy rule with the AF BDU and AF Blues. 

What this causes is a multitude of uniforms for the seniors.  What we have is an inconsistant look (non-uniform uniforms), and what we have are uniform bigots who look down on those who choose NOT to wear, or cannot wear the AF uniforms.

Taking what you say, then supports the premise of going 'distinctive CAP" blue as in my previous post.

I was at NER SARCOM as PAO last weekend and saw a multitude of seniors who were in AF style uniforms that should not have been.  What I also saw was a multitude of different uniforms for seniors and was asked a number of times from my 'real' AF associates why all the different uniforms..  On the PAO staff we agree'd before hand to wear the grey pants and aviators.  It looked good as a staff, but we stood out differently from those wearing the TPU and the AF blues. 

Tangent:  We also discovered that when covering certain field exercises we were not dressed appropriately too :O ie greys in the field on a 90 degree humid day...  Next time we agree'd that we are going CAP blue for the activities that warrent a flight suit and field gear, again, our staff maintains a uniform look at the appropriate event. /Tangent

Just as the Navy wears a different uniform from the AF, as does the Army, the rangers, the Marines etc.. they have a DISTINCTIVE AND UNIFORM look.  Each branch respects the other (well except for the flyboy and squid comments   )  Look at the fire Dept's or the police, again they have adopted uniforms that might be slightly different from their brothers, but they are uniform from within.  This is the key to me.

In my area we have mainly volunteer fire Dept's, they wear the same uniforms, guess what they also have fat and fuzzies wearing the same uniform!!!  Interesting!!  Perhaps a paid dept would be different in grooming, but it is the difference between paid and volunteer.

Now.. is it an issue that seniors wear the CAP blue for all uniforms when working with cadets who are still wearing the AF colors?  I think not.. As adults we stand out from the cadets, anyway.  We are just uniformed monitors but again UNIFORM being the key.  Cadets wear the AF colors, this way they feel 'military'.. Seniors wear CAP blue uniforms, thus maintaining uniformity within the senior ranks and don't bump against AF grooming and weight.

I also think this would be a way to get back some of the lost cadet respect for seniors.. How many cadets chaff because a senior is too fat and is wearing BDUs?  How many cadets cringe at a senior wannabee wearing AF blues when he should not? Or a senior wanna bee not wearing the AF BDU's or Blues properly.. Cadets really loose respect... The cadet program is different from the senior, they run their show under the 'guidance' of seniors.. different uniform, but again uniform might be a good answer.

Side note: Someone correct me, but there is no weight restriction for cadets wearing blues and BDU's right?

[ColonelJack]

You're right, there's no weight standards for cadets under 18.  At 18, they can wear the corporate blues if they don't meet AF weight standards.

As for your points on the many different kinds of uniforms creating an inconsistent look, you're right on the issue that many look down on those who don't/can't wear AF uniforms, and frankly, they're the ones who need attitude adjustments.  As has been pointed out many times before, if we want CAP to look all-AF all the time, we'd all join the Air Force.  The various styles of uniform are provided so that those who aren't active-duty material (like me, for age and weight) can still have a military-style appearance in the performance of our CAP duties.

But until someone higher up the food chain than us decides the AF uniform shall be appropriate for all CAP officers -- fit, fat, and fuzzy -- we're going to have incidents like the one you cited, where SMs show up in all three of the service dress uniform combinations.  Commanders and conference leaders can't mandate one over the other, can they?  I don't believe so, and if they can, they're certainly not going to alienate large portions of our valuable membership by telling them, "Unless you have the right clothes and can wear them right, you can't come."

Jack

[SARMedTech]

If there is such a regulation for cadets concerning weight, its not enforced across the board. My squadron has a 14 year old cadet who weighs in at 210 pounds. Ive suggested that perhaps he not be allowed to do certain things that might be detrimental to his health since he cant hardly get up from a chair without being winded. I was told "we cant say things like that to them. it hurts their morale." I guess we're lucky they let us old farts join the Cadet Air Patrol. Good thing my CPR is current cause I may be pumping his chest during out next SAREx.[

[SARMedTech]

You're right, there's no weight standards for cadets under 18.  At 18, they can wear the corporate blues if they don't meet AF weight standards.

As for your points on the many different kinds of uniforms creating an inconsistent look, you're right on the issue that many look down on those who don't/can't wear AF uniforms, and frankly, they're the ones who need attitude adjustments.  As has been pointed out many times before, if we want CAP to look all-AF all the time, we'd all join the Air Force.  The various styles of uniform are provided so that those who aren't active-duty material (like me, for age and weight) can still have a military-style appearance in the performance of our CAP duties.

But until someone higher up the food chain than us decides the AF uniform shall be appropriate for all CAP officers -- fit, fat, and fuzzy -- we're going to have incidents like the one you cited, where SMs show up in all three of the service dress uniform combinations.  Commanders and conference leaders can't mandate one over the other, can they?  I don't believe so, and if they can, they're certainly not going to alienate large portions of our valuable membership by telling them, "Unless you have the right clothes and can wear them right, you can't come."

Jack

All the more reason for CAP distinctives only.

[Hawk200]

It amazes me how quickly people forget why we're wearing camo in the first place. C'mon, people, the average goldfish has a longer memory.

Second, just because you can't wear it, doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be allowed to. That's about as selfish as you can get.

I'm all for consolidating, but some of the suggestions I've seen are just as discriminatory against those that aren't (as you call them), fat and fuzzy. Do you not see the irony (to be polite)?

[Pumbaa]

ColJack you are correct that we cannot mandate what is worn unless it finally comes from the top of the foodchain.  But in the case of the PAO staff at SARCOMP, we discussed it and reasonable thought it was a good idea to wear greys.  And yes I beleive it worked out.

If we get the flight we are planning perhaps we would strongly encourage seniors to go CAP blue right from the gitgo, this might be a way to sunset a lot of the other uniforms.. who knows...

Hawk for some of us goldfish please fill us in...

You are correct about those who are fit, and not fat and fuzzy, my point being uniform in uniforms and what would work...

[Hawk200]

Hawk for some of us goldfish please fill us in...

You are correct about those who are fit, and not fat and fuzzy, my point being uniform in uniforms and what would work...

Personally, the discrimination I see from the top is the issue. Pineda himself is not legitimately able to wear the USAF uniform. Hypothetically, would you be surprised if the Air Force told Pineda: "We're not giving CAP metal rank, which is a moot point, because you're too heavy to wear it anyway." Would such a thing surprise you at all?

There's a simple solution. Ditch the grays, allow beards with TPU/TPU Lite. I don't like that uniform, but if it eliminates excess stuff, then it's the way to go. Can you honestly say that blue pants/white shirt would look a whole lot different than blue pants/blue shirt if the insignia were actually matched up?

Go with blue epaulets, or grey epaulets, or freaking lilac, but whatever you do, establish uniformity, by making the insignia the same. One person with a beard wearing white/blue standing next to a person wearing blue/blue is going to match up if the insignia is uniform. Blue epaulets here on a pseudo Air Force uniform, and grey epaulets over on a variation of an actual Air Force uniform is crap, and we've all swallowed it.

We can create uniformity between two vaguely different uniforms. I see it in the local Sherrif's Department all the time. Sergeants and up wear gold accoutrements instead of silver. Lietentants and up wear those gold accoutrements with a white shirt instead of a grey one. All other insignia is the same. The general public never considers the LT as someone from a different department because his shirt is a different color.

Uniformity is very possible, we just have to do something about it.

[SARMedTech]

First off, yes, Im pretty sure that blue shirts and white shirts are different. Its been a long time since kindergarten, but I think thats right.

You've actually contradicted yourself in a way. In EMS (in general, this is not always the case but the terminology is still used) there are the field EMTs and Medics who often wear blue shirts and then there are Medic Supervisors and Ops Managers who wear white, so much so that supervisors, even if the agency doesnt use this uniform policy, are called white shirts (or white hats in the case of firefighters). Think about this scenario for a second. First off, there is no way that all insignia, badges etc can match simply because of varying levels of professional development. Second, if we are working with other municipal or private emergency agencies and there happen to be CAP officers out there, say at the mission base, and some are wearing white shirts and some blue, their culture will make them think "Im gonna talk to the white shirt, he must be a supervisor" and this is where I say you contradict yourself. You say is anyone really gonna notice the different shirts as long as the insignia is the same and then you go on to point out that in police departments, white shirts indicate command, which is a largely accepted practice within ES culture.

When I worked EMS in the desert Southwest, we had uniform inspections for every shift. Now I may not be a "white shirt" but I am a stickler for uniformity. My department wore sage green BDUs, white crew neck t-shirts and Altama desert boots. Everyone was required to wear exactly that uniform carry their gear the same way, etc. When I walked an inspection line I wanted to see covers on properly (we wore boonies), boots properly bloused (like USCGAUX...between 2nd and 3rd eyelets), everyone wearing the same belt, carrying the same color trauma sheers, their radios stowed in the same location on their belts, etc. Overboard...sure. But when we ran a mass casualty incident or our SAR team went out, everyone commented on the look of professionalism and cohesion. The only variations were allowed were longevity pins. There is a reason for uniformity. If you look like the officer next to you, you work better together, you begin to think alike. That is the whole point of the uniform. Is it so important to wear AF blues that we have to discriminate against those who dont meet some arbitrary regulation that even the NC cant meet. To my mind, its more important to have cohesion and uniformity. As Fuzzy says, when an AF officer walks up to you and says, whats with all the different uniforms, it might be time for a change. Its no wonder they treat us like the black sheep of the AF family because thats the way we act.  Semper Vi! That is all.

[Ned]

I got tired of tilting at the "non-uniform uniforms" windmill years ago after performing a thought experiment.


Imagine starting from scratch, and designing professional, high speed uniforms that clearly identify members who are:

80 lbs
380 lbs

4'-2"
7'-2"

fuzzy
not fuzzy

pregnant
not pregnant

crutches/wheelchaired
not visiibly disabled

cadets engaged in a military leadership training program
officers engaged in emergency services, customs, and  counterdrug missions
cadets and officers engaged in aerospace education

working in the snow
working in the desert

working in an office
working in a public school

working in an airplane
working in a forest

working on the side of a mountain
working in a swamp

participating in a ceremony
participating in an awards banquet

meeting with parents and school admnistrators
meeting with Air Force officers at the Pentagon or a USAF base

(etc., etc., etc.)


And remember, any uniform design has to be widely available in all 50 states, comfortable, durable, easy to maintain, and reasonably inexpensive.  And it would be nice if it reflected our Air Force heritage.


Ready . . . set . . . GO!


What did you come up with?

Now, let every uniform "afficianado" in CAP comment on it, and remember it has to please everyone.

Or at least each of the members who has posted so far in this thread.

I submit that no other organization on the face of the earth has been able to meet anything close to this range of requirments.  If you look in the AFI, even the USAF requires well over a dozen uniforms to meet their requirements, and they don't have anything approaching the diversity of members that we do.

(Well, technically I guess McDonalds comes close to attempting to have uniforms to cover a highly diverse crew world wide, but nobody I know would ever consider a McDonald's crew uniform an effective recruiting tool for cadets or seniors. )


Bottom line, our plethora of uniforms does not stem from some evil cabal of schizophrenic military fashionistas, but is the result of a very common sense series of compromises in response to real world conditions, the diversity of our membship and missions, and the external dictates of the USAF concerning who can wear a USAF-style uniform.

Based on the comments here, it seems probable that each of us might have arrived a slightly different compromise -- the number and kinds of uniforms might be different depending on which of us gets to be the Uniform Czar of CAP.

But it will always remain a "mix of uniforms."

And an endless source of circular discussion.

Ned Lee
a CP kind of guy

[SARMedTech]

You might be right, if and only if-

This uniform cluster cook actually had the kind of situational dependence you describe.  Sure, the USMC has different varieties of uniforms, so does the Army. But there is a specific purpose behind each uniform: formal occasions, meetings, operations, etc. We dont have this. Sure, the regs sort of suggest that a certain uniform would be appropriate for a certain function. But as we have heard, this is not hard and fast. I was recently as a sort of semi-formal squadron. I wore my newly acquired service coat and tie and was one of the first to arrive. After me came in officers wearing blues and greys (with and without ribbons), blazer combos, mess dress and even one member in  the "golf" uniform. If we are going to continue to have more uniform combinations than the military of most countries then there needs to be a mandate. Im getting a little weary of hearing "You cant tell members what they have to do. They will get upset and leave."  My feeling is dont let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. We are members of an organization based on a military model. If CAP-USAF wants to keep that military model intact, they must  say "you WILL wear this uniform for this occasion." If we had one hard and fast regulation, I think that would have to be it. The USCGA doesnt have this problem and I have to tell you that my friends in the CG Aux really think we are pretty silly and disorganized. Lets stop all of this weight garbage and have all members where the same three uniforms. If the AF is is concerned about maintaining appearances theyre not doing a very good job. An overweight officer is an overweight officer and hes going to be that and people are going to associate him with the AF regardless.

6 Uniforms:

BBDUs with weather dictated accoutrements and standards (being allowed to wear BDU trousers and t-shirt on operation or exercise when weather is a concern.

Service blue/whites with garrison cap

Corporate Dress Jacket uniform with service cap

Mess Dress with service cap

Blue Flight Suits with flight cap

Blue Coveralls for work details

Then we could add headgear variations-boonies, ballcaps, squadron ball caps

With the exception of the TP coat, all of these uniforms are both CAP distinctive and AF style since if you look at most of what makes CAP distinctives different, its color.

[Ned]

I can't really disagree with you that when members wear a wide variety of uniforms to the same function that it - by definition -- looks less uniform.

But commanders already possess the ability to direct that particular uniforms (or at least classes of uniforms) be worn for particular functions.



Also, it is critically important for the cadet program for the cadet to wear the current USAF style uniform for a number of reasons, including leadership training and retention.


Finally,

If the AF is is concerned about maintaining appearances theyre not doing a very good job. An overweight officer is an overweight officer and hes going to be that and people are going to associate him with the AF regardless.

This kinda belongs in the "if pigs had wings . . ." catagory. 

The USAF call is the USAF call.  You or I (or the USCG) might make a different one, but it is their ball and they have been very consistent on their grooming and weight standards for about a half-century at this point.


You can probably reach the USAF Chief of Staff at this office in the Pentagon.

[Pumbaa]

Well I just lost all that I typed!!! Stupid log out!

@#%@%#%#@&%#!!!!!

I agree the cadet uniforms are not the real issue.. Leave them as is, AF BDU and Blues, this is mainly what they come for.. Plus they don't have the plethora of uniforms until they turn 18!!!

Cadet program, aka playing/ learning military.. Recruitment and retention...

Seniors Officers are a different story.  Allowing for weight and age we need to narrow the choices down to maintain the type of uniformity you see on the cadet side of the house. Since we have a lot of shapes, weights, and hair.. Why not narrow it down?

The reasoning behind the TPU is nothing short of pride, arrogence and 100% stupidity. Leadership shold be hung out to dry for that end run... Now that it is here though, just make it available to the fuzzy, along with the fat and fit, then just drop the grays. I mean it's NOT an AF uniform, so what the heck!

But over all there is nothing we can do as it is controlled from the top.. aka Mama blue and TP.

THat said we can do something on the local level.  For the Seniors Officers.  The commander should just say that we are going to obtain uniformity, thus we standarize on the CAP uniforms, ie. BlueDU's, Blue Flight Suit and Grays/Aviators.  Then have the UotD so everyone is lock step.  Then as commanders in groups get together they spread the word, and whole groups will start to do it in particaular during SAREXs and other group activities.  Sooner or later it would work its way up, its a grass roots thing...

That being said, it is not an ideal world, and I doubt it would ever get so far.. but you know, if I do get a flight/squadron I would really try...

ETA: I've been working on loosing weight.. Looks like I am not longer fat!!!  I qualify by 2 lbs.. How'z about them apples?

But ya know what... I am still fuzzy, and even if I shave I'll still go CAP Blue.

[Hawk200]

You've actually contradicted yourself in a way. In EMS (in general, this is not always the case but the terminology is still used) there are the field EMTs and Medics who often wear blue shirts and then there are Medic Supervisors and Ops Managers who wear white, so much so that supervisors, even if the agency doesnt use this uniform policy, are called white shirts (or white hats in the case of firefighters)....

I'm starting to wonder if you really read my initial post at all. I pointed out the insignia being the same, I said absolutely nothing about white shirts being command over the others. The point I was making is that whether the shirt is grey or white, they are still seen as PART OF THE SAME SHERRIF'S DEPARTMENT. Your post indicates that people in your line of work consider anything other than a white shirt as inferior. Not my point, and completely irrelevant to me. I'm sure EMT's are smart enough to figure out that a captain outranks a lieutenant, regardless of his shirt color. If not, I hope my life isn't any danger with them around.

My point is that if the local sherrrif's department all has the same patches, badges, collar insignia, and that regardless of the shirt people still see them as the same organization, then there really is no reason that CAP can't have a blue shirt and a white shirt with the same pants.

It seems to me that your viewpoint is that you can't fit into my uniform of choice, then screw me, I have to wear yours. I resent that. I've never insisted that everyone meet the same weight standard (because I don't believe it), and if you look you'll find that I've defended those who choose not to shave (for whatever reason). Even if I wasn't able to wear them, I wouldn't want to poison the well for those who still could.

I personally think that a TPU and  AF blues can live alongside each other, especially if we grow some brains (or quit sitting on them, whichever) and use the same stuff across the board. White/blue next to blue/blue isn't a real extreme if the epaulets, nametags, and other insignia match. My point is that it can be harmonious if we choose to make it so.

[MIKE]

Well I just lost all that I typed!!! Stupid log out!

Click Remember Me and you will stay logged in until you want to log off.

As far as this topic:  Grumble, grumble... It's always the fat and fuzzies that bring these topics up, but I think that was already mentioned.  Grumble, grumble.

I fit into one of Ned's categories, yet I have worn USAF style since I was a cadork.

[RogueLeader]

Maybe this is what you were saying but how about?

1. Blue BDUs...no more camo.  Boonies are authorized (oh god, someone might think we are SWAT...oh wait...no weapons...whew)

2. Blue and whites with groomed facial hair authorized. Flight cover.

3. The new blue service dress for formal/ ceremonial. Service cover

There...see how easy. Three uniforms in your closet (except maybe more than one set of BDUs) and alot more money in your wallet and perhaps UNIFORMS might get alot less air time on the forums and we could focus on the stupid stuff, like ES, CP and members not having to take out a home mortgage loan to fund their volunteering. I say we let John McCain pay for our uniforms. Or maybe even "W", surely he knows what the Air Force is all about...or does he?

Nope. Sorry, would have to change out ALL of my uniforms then.  NOT going to happen.

[Hawk200]

As far as this topic:  Grumble, grumble... It's always the fat and fuzzies that bring these topics up, but I think that was already mentioned.  Grumble, grumble.

To be fair, it wasn't a fat and fuzzy thread. It was about wearing BDU's when you're on a mission. A topic that has been hashed out and rehashed numerous times since I've been here. And the reason that seems to be forgotten each time.

[SARMedTech]

You've actually contradicted yourself in a way. In EMS (in general, this is not always the case but the terminology is still used) there are the field EMTs and Medics who often wear blue shirts and then there are Medic Supervisors and Ops Managers who wear white, so much so that supervisors, even if the agency doesnt use this uniform policy, are called white shirts (or white hats in the case of firefighters)....

I'm starting to wonder if you really read my initial post at all. I pointed out the insignia being the same, I said absolutely nothing about white shirts being command over the others. The point I was making is that whether the shirt is grey or white, they are still seen as PART OF THE SAME SHERRIF'S DEPARTMENT. Your post indicates that people in your line of work consider anything other than a white shirt as inferior. Not my point, and completely irrelevant to me. I'm sure EMT's are smart enough to figure out that a captain outranks a lieutenant, regardless of his shirt color. If not, I hope my life isn't any danger with them around.

My point is that if the local sherrrif's department all has the same patches, badges, collar insignia, and that regardless of the shirt people still see them as the same organization, then there really is no reason that CAP can't have a blue shirt and a white shirt with the same pants.

It seems to me that your viewpoint is that you can't fit into my uniform of choice, then screw me, I have to wear yours. I resent that. I've never insisted that everyone meet the same weight standard (because I don't believe it), and if you look you'll find that I've defended those who choose not to shave (for whatever reason). Even if I wasn't able to wear them, I wouldn't want to poison the well for those who still could.

I personally think that a TPU and  AF blues can live alongside each other, especially if we grow some brains (or quit sitting on them, whichever) and use the same stuff across the board. White/blue next to blue/blue isn't a real extreme if the epaulets, nametags, and other insignia match. My point is that it can be harmonious if we choose to make it so.

Actually, I said nothing that would indicate that in EMS the "white shirts" are superior, merely that it is a sign of command as it is in many emergency services (EMS, Police, Fire). Ive been a "blue shirt" EMT in two different states now for several years and while my job is different than say, a command medic, I dont feel inferior at all. I consider myself to be a very good EMT. Upon close inspection, people may realize that folks in different color shirts are with the same organization, but the whole point of what I said, which was about uniformity is what you seem to have missed big time. And if you think that i was saying screw you, you have a bit of an overlly delicate ego. What I am saying, is there simply is no need for the two entirely different sets of uniforms and countless combinations of them...blue shirts, white shirts, blue pants, grey pants, blue epis grey epis...its like the friggin Civil War. What you totally missed was that I what I was saying was that if we dropped AF uniforms and used only CAP distinctives, then we would have true uniformity...a uniformity for which there are countless benefits and purposes, not the least of which is comraderie and cohesion. Do you really have that intense a need to wear AF blues?  You sound like you might be one of the ones who would disenroll if our wear of AF styles was discontinued. There is a logic to all members wearing the same uniform, but no real justify one for endless permutations. And you say white/blue next to blue/blue would look just fine. What about white/grey? What about some wearing covers and some not. Or some wearing flight caps and some wearing ball caps. Its not about color, its about uniformity and all that entails.

As far as this topic:  Grumble, grumble... It's always the fat and fuzzies that bring these topics up, but I think that was already mentioned.  Grumble, grumble.

And while you didnt say this, this is the very attitude that just adds fuel to my belief that we should all be wearing the same uniform. There is often an inherent, though perhaps unintentional bias against those who are overweight. My extra 40 pounds is the result of two years of not being able to move without assistance after I went through the windshield of my car when someone slammed into me from the back going about 75mph. So, since I am combining a couple of posts here....Mike, do you think it makes me inferior to you because I am "fat." Sure sounds like it. All im saying is that if we went to all the same uniform, which would necessarily be the distinctives because of regs, there would be fewer arguments about what uniform is for what and far fewer understandings

Tags - MIKE

[Hawk200]

Actually, I said nothing that would indicate that in EMS the "white shirts" are superior, merely that it is a sign of command as it is in many emergency services (EMS, Police, Fire).

If the people from your agencies consider the white shirt the only management, then they do consider the others inferior (in a subordinate/superior sense).

Upon close inspection, people may realize that folks in different color shirts are with the same organization, but the whole point of what I said, which was about uniformity is what you seem to have missed big time.

The impression i'm seeing is you're seeing uniformity as completely, utterly identical. Even different color shirts with otherwise identical trappings would not be considered uniform. You're part of an organization that uses the differences. We would be doing the same, just for a different reason. I don't see how you don't understand the point I'm trying to make.

And if you think that i was saying screw you, you have a bit of an overlly delicate ego.

As another poster put, it would require revamping his closet. I, personally, would have to invest in white shirts (which the ones that are commonly used I think are tacky), and throw out all my BDU's. I used those in the military, it was a simple thing to do some sewing. You would have me throw away one uniform for one that is less than 18 months old. Throwing away others that are perfectly serviceable for field duty.

What I am saying, is there simply is no need for the two entirely different sets of uniforms and countless combinations of them...blue shirts, white shirts, blue pants, grey pants, blue epis grey epis...its like the friggin Civil War. What you totally missed was that I what I was saying was that if we dropped AF uniforms and used only CAP distinctives, then we would have true uniformity...a uniformity for which there are countless benefits and purposes, not the least of which is comraderie and cohesion.

I agree that there are many variations. But would one set of epaulets and nametag on a blue or white shirt be so drastically different that you couldn't handle that?

I say pick one set of accoutrements, carry them across the board, have blues for those who can wear them, and blue/white for those who cannot. And I've never felt any less comraderie with another member that wasn't wearing blues or a woodland BDU, I've never been hung up on uniformity that much. They aren't any greater or less than me, just because they didn't shop the same clothing.

Do you really have that intense a need to wear AF blues?  You sound like you might be one of the ones who would disenroll if our wear of AF styles was discontinued.

That's what I have in my closet. Why should I throw it out? I would have clothing that would no longer serve any purpose. And now that I think of it, I might consider other options if the AF blues were discontinued. The Army Guard gave me clothes, I'm sure the ACA Army branch wouldn't mind another body that has military background.

There is a logic to all members wearing the same uniform, but no real justify one for endless permutations.

So don't have endless permutations, just have a couple of variations. There is logic to having alternates. I find it ironic, there are people that believe that the military standard should be the only standard, but you have the view that the non-military standard should be the only standard. I don't get it. Give me one good reason why I should throw out my current investment, and start over.

And you say white/blue next to blue/blue would look just fine. What about white/grey? What about some wearing covers and some not. Or some wearing flight caps and some wearing ball caps. Its not about color, its about uniformity and all that entails.

So establish the uniformity. I don't think grey/whites look all that uniform anyway. No two people wear the same style or color of grey pants. Shirt pocket shapes and sizes vary too. I hate to say it, but the white/greys are only uniform in concept.

With the TPU, if two people wear it properly, then they will be uniform. The pants for the TPU are the same as blues. If a white shirt was adopted in the same pattern as the blue one, it would go a long way to members being identified as of the same organization.

You advocate a complete elimination of all but one uniform. I advocate two variations of a single theme. Pants the same, hats the same, shoes/socks the same, shirts almost identical just a variation of color. What is so hard about that?

[SARMedTech]

First of all, we are not military. You ask what is so hard about variations on a theme? My question to you is, why the necessity for two entirely different sets of uniforms? Whats the point? Its not like if someone is overweight and wearing an AF uniform that CAP or the AF lose their operational capabilities. Its a foolish regulation which the CGAUX has chosen to ignore. There requirement is grooming, not weight. And what about coats. Certainly there is more difference between the AF service dress and the Corporate one. Theres a whole different appearance, one of which makes those who are not considered worthy to wear AF uniforms look like lighthouse keepers. As far you using the word inferior...inferior refers to quality not rank, status or grade. It refers to the fact that x is not as good as z.

And I said it before but it bears repeating...Fuzzy told us about being asked by AF members, why so many different uniforms from one group? That means that people notice it, that it looks awkward. And if there are too many variations of grey shades and styles of grey trousers, then find a supplier for them and say that no other substitutes or look alikes are allowed. Same with the white shirts.

My point about the camo was that its useless, both for cadets and officers. Its for appearances only and I have no need to look military. Even if I did meet the standards for camo, I wouldnt wear it.

What youve done is give me a laundry list but you havent answered the basic question. What is the need for corporate and AF uniforms. There is no need for it and consequently it creates a division in the membership which doesnt need to be there.

As for you mentioning that my EMS agencies utilizes different colors, yes, we do. But, our tactical trousers are the same shade of blue, the same cut and made by the same manufacture. As are the blue and white shirts. Different in color only. No different style nametags, no different coats, I mean, we are even required to wear the same boots made by Bates. I have no problem with rank insignia being different badges, ribbons etc being different I just think we need to get our act together and say OK folks here is where you will get your uniforms, here is the style number, here is the color shade. How would it look if we slapped different color and style uniforms on the Old Guard at Arlington?

My point is simply this: No one has yet to offer any TRUE reason why there needs to be different sets of uniforms. USCGAUX doesnt do it except for issues of hair grooming..and i mean head hair, not facial. What is most upsetting to me is that this issue is not about any practical, tactical or operational need for multiple uniforms. Its about CAP and the AF making judgements about the people in the uniform.  Oh, your five pounds over weight...sorry, no blue shirt for you but if you like you can go to KMart and buy any old grey trousers and white shirt and thats good enough. This goes much deeper than just a fanatical need to be perfectly uniform. It has to do with what CAP-USAF is saying about some of its members by requiring different uniforms and the fact is that the Corporates are largely viewed as second rate to those who wear the AF style. Thats not a conjecture, Ive seen it in my own squadron and I cant believe its a unique phenomenon. And it seems like CAP has gone to great lengths for no reason: if your overweight and have facial hair, you can wear greys, but if your overweight but not hairy you can wear blue trousers and epis. Certainly you must see that its nonsense.

[CAP Producer]

SARMedTech said: "No one has yet to offer any TRUE reason why there needs to be different sets of uniforms."

The reason is simple. The US Air Force says that if we do not meet their appearance and weight standards (Plus 10 %) we do not wear their uniform. Period.

Our leadership has offered a series of alternaitive uniforms and that is what is authorized.

Yes,  there are alot of uniforms and confusing rules for their wear but nothing that can't be managed.

We can achive uniformity but not as long as peopel have a "I am doing it my way" attitude. That's the real problem with CAP.

Once members put their personal preferences aside, meet the standard and wear an appropriate uniform for the apprpriate activity we will be better off as an organization.

Oh to answer the initial question of the thread.

I suggest that the initial uniform for new members be the polo shirt and grey trousers. When promoted to 2d Lt they should have the aviator shirt and when they demonstrate that they can wear them properly allow wear of complete USAF or CAP Blues.

If you are a pilot then you should have a flight suit or if you are ground personnel the BDU or Blue BDU.

Three uniforms that meet all of your basic needs as a CAP member. Nice and simple.

[ColonelJack]

Hoo, boy.

First of all, we are not military. You ask what is so hard about variations on a theme? My question to you is, why the necessity for two entirely different sets of uniforms? Whats the point? Its not like if someone is overweight and wearing an AF uniform that CAP or the AF lose their operational capabilities. Its a foolish regulation which the CGAUX has chosen to ignore. There requirement is grooming, not weight.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I grow weary of hearing how the Coast Guard allows its Auxiliarists to wear the CG uniform.  It's not the CG uniform.  It's an altered CG uniform, with silver buttons and braid as opposed to gold.  It's recognizable immediately as not being the active CG.  In fact, the CGAux's uniform is more markedly different from CG than CAP's is from AF.  (Did that make sense?) 

And what about coats. Certainly there is more difference between the AF service dress and the Corporate one. Theres a whole different appearance, one of which makes those who are not considered worthy to wear AF uniforms look like lighthouse keepers.

Exsqueeze me?  The only difference -- the only difference -- between the AF blue coat and the CAP blue coat is the number of buttons on the front.  (Well, that and the sleeve braid.)  It's enough like the AF blue coat that many people have to get up close and see the "CAP" cutouts on the lapel to know there's a difference, unless they already know.

And I said it before but it bears repeating...Fuzzy told us about being asked by AF members, why so many different uniforms from one group? That means that people notice it, that it looks awkward. And if there are too many variations of grey shades and styles of grey trousers, then find a supplier for them and say that no other substitutes or look alikes are allowed. Same with the white shirts.

Now that's a good idea.  If we must have three service-dress uniforms, let's make them standardized.  (I still don't get what's wrong with three service-dress uniforms, though, provided the rules are properly enforced.)

My point about the camo was that its useless, both for cadets and officers. Its for appearances only and I have no need to look military. Even if I did meet the standards for camo, I wouldnt wear it.

It's also what's available, unless you want to buy the BBDU.  Kind of limited in that regard, n'est-ce pas?

What youve done is give me a laundry list but you havent answered the basic question. What is the need for corporate and AF uniforms. There is no need for it and consequently it creates a division in the membership which doesnt need to be there.

The answer to your question is a simple one, Grasshopper.  It's that way because the Air Force tells us who wears their uniforms and when.  If they don't want the fat-n-fuzzies in their uniforms, then that's that.  So, for a uniform appearance, we have to invent our own.  That's how that came about.  I don't necessarily see a division in the membership, unless those feeling divided are the ones who base their value to the organization solely on the clothes they're allowed to wear to work.

I just think we need to get our act together and say OK folks here is where you will get your uniforms, here is the style number, here is the color shade. How would it look if we slapped different color and style uniforms on the Old Guard at Arlington?

Pretty darned silly, I agree.  But then, the "real" military has what you suggest.  CAP, not being the military (as you so correctly pointed out), doesn't have that, and can only go so far in requiring it.  Regulations say that outfitting oneself in uniform should not produce financial hardship on the member, and some of this stuff is expensive.

My point is simply this: No one has yet to offer any TRUE reason why there needs to be different sets of uniforms. USCGAUX doesnt do it except for issues of hair grooming..and i mean head hair, not facial.

I beg to differ, my friend.  You've been given the true reason several times.  It may not be the reason you want to hear -- it isn't for many.  But it's the same reason our parents gave us, and we gave our children:  The Air Force said so.  That's it.  Your beef isn't with Civil Air Patrol, it's with the Air Force and their regulations.  This discussion belongs with them, not CAP.

And before you say, "That's no reason!" or some other rejoinder ... it's the only reason AF has to give.  They said so.  So that's it.  It is their uniform, after all.

What is most upsetting to me is that this issue is not about any practical, tactical or operational need for multiple uniforms. Its about CAP and the AF making judgements about the people in the uniform.

They do it all the time!  If you're overweight on active duty, you get weight counseling, restriction, special diets ... and then you get your discharge if you can't shape up.  They can't kick CAP personnel out, but they can darned well make sure overweight people don't wear their uniforms.  And that, as I've said, is their call, and that's what they've made.

This goes much deeper than just a fanatical need to be perfectly uniform. It has to do with what CAP-USAF is saying about some of its members by requiring different uniforms and the fact is that the Corporates are largely viewed as second rate to those who wear the AF style. Thats not a conjecture, Ive seen it in my own squadron and I cant believe its a unique phenomenon.

Then I say it's time those members who view the fat-n-fuzzy as second rate get an attitude adjustment!  I go back to my comment earlier -- if all that makes a person valuable to CAP is the clothes he/she is allowed to wear to work, then those who look down on others need to check their own priorities.

And it seems like CAP has gone to great lengths for no reason: if your overweight and have facial hair, you can wear greys, but if your overweight but not hairy you can wear blue trousers and epis. Certainly you must see that its nonsense.

I do see it as nonsense.  Just not the way you're indicating.  (No offense intended.)

Jack

[RiverAux]

As opposed to CAP's "AF-style" BDU which has white on blue name tapes, rank insignia, and badges and doesn't even have the words "Air Force" on it anywhere? 

[SarDragon]

PS- I think its a CAP-USAF sick joke that the only cover allowed with the greys is the ball cap. Ive seen this on members and it looks unbelievably stupid and ugly. Not that there ever is, but whats the rational for us not being able to wear flight or service covers with the greys?

The Air Force has this thing about mixing uniform items and civilian clothes. I still haven't quite figured out how the NB got away with the TPU.

[Pumbaa]

The Air Force has this thing about mixing uniform items and civilian clothes. I still haven't quite figured out how the NB got away with the TPU.

Ok hunch, YMMV...
I think the way TP got away from it, is basically the Aviator and double breasted jacket are the base of the uniform, they are not 'uniform items' in the eyes of mama blue. Thus, it was not totally subject to her will since it is 'corporate'.

I say BULL PUCKY!!!

So this end run is basically the reverse, of an AF 'uniform'.  What you essentially have could be equated to a airline, police/ fire/ ES, style, what have you.

Remember how many changes happened when the TPU first came out? We had metal rank on the flight cap.. gone, they changed U.S. cutouts to CAP.. etc, etc..

I still will say this was an arrogent, prideful and stupid way to do an end run around mama blue.  All in the name of getting metal rank back.

That being said, since it is thusly a corporate outfit, just drop the No Fuzzy rule, so all Seniors Officers can wear it... with that done kill the grays-Aviator/Golf shirt.  This will at least bring all Seniors Officers to a more uniform appearance.

Why oh why pray-tell can a fat and fuzzy wear the grays, yet a fuzzy can not wear the TPU.. That is wacked logic.. Only difference is color, it is NOT an AF uniform by definition so it is not subject to mama.. That being the case you have a bit of discrimination on a 'corporate' level.

How the heck TP can reason that this 'corporate' outfit can only be worn by Fit and Fat, but not fuzzy is beyond me.  I will say that a well trimmed fuzzy looks a whole lot better than a fatty in any uniform/ outfit...

And I say that looking at my own photos!   

ETA: I want to know who the rocket scientist was who said a ballcap with the grays too?  oops did I insult Rocket scientists?

[wingnut]

Gee
Guys, why get carried away about the uniforms all the time, is that why your in CAP, i mean if you want a better Uniform join Fred Flinstone and become a 'Grand PooPah" with a buffalo skin Hat with Horns.  Very few states wear the green flight suit,, but if you around Active duty guys like my squadron you don't see 300 pound air crewman, CAP guys at 280 pounds and 5 foot 10 look like "BIG green FAT PICKLES. I am asshamed for them and the organization.

The blue BDU is more in line with 90%of the EMS world not just swat. if you remember we went to Camo BDU because it was issued in the 80s. Not a secret agenda. We even had sissy looking powder blue jump suits remember. Orange Flight suits were standard issue for  years for the USAF and US Navy, then Viet Nam and Jungle Bailouts, the Green suit was in because Orange is a great target in the Jungle.

some guys have to grow up and stop playing Army, or GI Joe, it takes away from the mission, spend more time on learning mission skills and less on how you look in the mirror. People usually are not that impressed with you in your uniform anyway, and if your a big fat slob, well guess what they see you as a big fat slob in uniform and if that uniforma has a name on it "well your now a Big fat CAP slob". think about it, are you in shape to walk and perform an elt mission? Worse if you weigh 300 pounds I don't want you in my plane. There is a reason the doctors are freaking out about obesity in America, it is killing us and sucking the productivity out of America. The military has a right to say 'NO FAT PEOPLE" what good are you in combat, canyou carry a 100 pounds pack and walk 10 miles "HELL NO" and a 300 pound Air Crew takes
"TWO Positions" and 15 gallons of extra gas (6 pounds per gallon). Most Overweight people Can't handle the heat stress on a 3 hour 100 degree temp flight. DO THE MATH, IT IS ALL ABOUT SAFETY bottom line, and Getting the mission done and saving lives. So forgive me for telling a Fat CAP member Sorry you cant fly, you can do Admin work and run the radios.

Lets get in shape for the mission

[JohnKachenmeister]

I want to put aside for a moment the fat boy discussion, although I will acknowledge that Wingnut is correct in some of what he says.  Overweight, by CAP standards, also includes a lot of people with greater-than-average muscle mass, however.  I will accept his point, replacing "Overweight" with "Out-of-condition." 

I want to focus on a personal beef of mine, the "Fuzzies."

Corporate uniforms came into existance well before the USAF fat standards were enforced on CAP members.  Initially the blazer uniform was for IACE, because of the sensitivities of certain countries to wearing the Air Force unifrorm there.

Then during the late 60's everybody (except me, I was in Vietnam) wanted to go to Woodstock and be hippies.  Everybody wanted to grow their hair long, wear beads, smoke dope and do free love.  The Air Force, being the neanderthals that they are, would not allow CAP members to wear long hair and flowers in the USAF uniform.   That brought about the corporate grays, specifically to accomdate our "Free spirits."

The Air Force set up their weight standards, and the corporate grays were a readily-available solution for the fat guys.

That history is relavant to the TPU.  There remains a certain class of member who cannot seem to understand that looking like a biker or Charlie Manson is not the image of a professional.  I would have zero problem with well-trimmed beards, goatees, moustaches, etc.  But some people, given an inch, take the whole mile.

So the easiest solution is to ban the beard.  And I can't say I blame them.

[ColonelJack]

Well, my friends, I guess we have been told.

But before I slink away with my tail between my legs because Wingnut called me names, let me point out a couple of things:

First, your assertion that overweight people can't handle three hours in the air is silly.  I had a senior observer rating before leaving CAP and I am only twenty pounds heavier today than I was when I retired.  It might've taken a few extra gallons of gas, but the experience I brought to exercises and missions was worth the expense -- at least, my pilots and MCs (now known as ICs) thought so.  At the time of my retirement I was proficient in mission skills -- not just the deskbound ones, either, having earned GT member rating as well as my aeronautical rating.  

I can walk five miles in 90 minutes, and do so regularly.  Whether I can do it with a 100-pound backpack is open to debate; I've not tried.  When I do, I'll be sure to let you know, as you seem to think that it's a requirement for being able to participate beyond sitting in a swivel chair.

You will get a lot more attention paid to what you say, sir, if you refrain from calling people names.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

Kach ... my previous post was not aimed at you.  I was responding to Wingnut and didn't want to quote him.

Jack

[PhotogPilot]

Gee
Guys, why get carried away about the uniforms all the time, is that why your in CAP, i mean if you want a better Uniform join Fred Flinstone and become a 'Grand PooPah" with a buffalo skin Hat with Horns.  Very few states wear the green flight suit,, but if you around Active duty guys like my squadron you don't see 300 pound air crewman, CAP guys at 280 pounds and 5 foot 10 look like "BIG green FAT PICKLES. I am asshamed for them and the organization.

The blue BDU is more in line with 90%of the EMS world not just swat. if you remember we went to Camo BDU because it was issued in the 80s. Not a secret agenda. We even had sissy looking powder blue jump suits remember. Orange Flight suits were standard issue for  years for the USAF and US Navy, then Viet Nam and Jungle Bailouts, the Green suit was in because Orange is a great target in the Jungle.

some guys have to grow up and stop playing Army, or GI Joe, it takes away from the mission, spend more time on learning mission skills and less on how you look in the mirror. People usually are not that impressed with you in your uniform anyway, and if your a big fat slob, well guess what they see you as a big fat slob in uniform and if that uniforma has a name on it "well your now a Big fat CAP slob". think about it, are you in shape to walk and perform an elt mission? Worse if you weigh 300 pounds I don't want you in my plane. There is a reason the doctors are freaking out about obesity in America, it is killing us and sucking the productivity out of America. The military has a right to say 'NO FAT PEOPLE" what good are you in combat, canyou carry a 100 pounds pack and walk 10 miles "HELL NO" and a 300 pound Air Crew takes
"TWO Positions" and 15 gallons of extra gas (6 pounds per gallon). Most Overweight people Can't handle the heat stress on a 3 hour 100 degree temp flight. DO THE MATH, IT IS ALL ABOUT SAFETY bottom line, and Getting the mission done and saving lives. So forgive me for telling a Fat CAP member Sorry you cant fly, you can do Admin work and run the radios.

Lets get in shape for the mission

I've never thought of it that way, my resignation letter will be on it's way to my squadron CC, with copies to wing and national tomorrow.

By the way, as a pilot, who's overweight, I don't want arrogant twits on my crew, thank you very much.

[Hawk200]

Gee, all this animosity starting from a post advertising coveralls....

Go figure.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Jack:

I didn't see it as aimed at me. We just posted at the same time.

By the way, I'm "Overweight," but can still (as of two weeks ago) carry 40 pounds of gear over two miles into the swamp and back out again. At 57 years old.

CAP standards do not take into account body fat and muscle mass.

[Major Carrales]

I...can still (as of two weeks ago) carry 40 pounds of gear over two miles into the swamp and back out again. At 57 years old.

Well, I guess some people just don't read "The Adventures of Smilin Kach and Sparky!" 

[SARMedTech]

There is just so much here with all the mud slinging that trying to quote specific instances of absolute nonsense would take forever, so Im just going to make a list and Im sure if an item refers to you, you will know who you are. By the way, being both "fat" (Im 5'9 and weigh 215 pounds after an auto accident...my target is 175 and am working on it with my doctor because its creating health problems, which after all is the only legitimate concern that people should have about being overweight: the health problems it leads to) and "fuzzy" I am truly shocked at the level of egotism presented by the "lean and clean" crowd. (There, now the fat and fuzzies can call names too! but i want a copyright on "lean and clean."  Here is my list. Consider it tacked to the church door (in no particular order):

1. Im not sure wear the statistic comes from that 90% of the EMS world wears blue BDUs but it is not an accurate statement. I think in my EMS career so far I have seen a grand total of 3 agencies/departments wear BDUs and one of them was one I worked for in the desert Southwest and they were sage green. Just because the pants have cargo pockets doesnt make them BDUs. In one of my part time EMS gigs I wear BDUs because I do tactical EMS for a private security contractor. My BDUs are grey.

2. I have a hard time believing that ANYONE in CAP is carrying a 100 pound field pack over a distance of many miles. Im a complete gear-geek and as such I carry alot of stuff when I do SAR, including a trauma kit. I spend the extra dough and by ultra-light gear and will NOT carry a pack that weighs more that 45 pounds. It is not good for the body, it is tiring and overall just plain stupid. However, being a part of the fat and fuzzy crowd and at age 33 having had a heart attack 3 years ago (when I was MUCH heavier than now)  I will pit myself against anyone who wishes to take me up on the challenge to carry a 100 pound pack over a distance of 3 miles. The only stipulation is that you must also carry all of the awkward gear I have to carry for tactical EMS. My LBV weighs about 17 pounds fully loaded and I carry a CLS pack that weight another 26. So we will be carrying 143 pounds of battle rattle. Ill even throw in free CPR for one of the "lean and clean" crowds when they collapse. One of the physical EMS requirements is being able to lift and carry 150 pounds unassisted. Not a problem despite the fact that some of you are "asshamed" that I wear the CAP uniform.

3. The cult of the uniform has not been created by the membership. It has been created by CAP-USAF so dont start pointing fingers at those who are concerned when they look in the mirror.

4. This one is for WINGNUT: if I were a pilot, I would be embarrassed to be in the same organization with you. You're condescending attitude makes me want to vomit, let alone the fact that you are just plain insenstive and cruel. Should I assume then that if you crash, you would prefer that I, as a "Big fat CAP slob" not care for you as an EMT either with CAP or with another agency. If so, please feel free to hang a black triage tag around your neck and I promise that my crew and I wont annoy you further by trying to save your life. I wouldn't want you to be "asshamed" when I saved your life and you had to thank my fat slob self. Oh by the way, can you do CPR compressions at the rate of 100 per minute for 25 minutes? No?  I CAN!

5. ALSO TO WINGNUT: A very large component of obesity has been linked to genetics. Would you like my family's names and addresses so you can write to them and be insulting and cruel?

6. Those of us with ES Ground specialties far outnumber pilots in CAP. The statistics from CAP itself support that. Having been involved in SAR and EMS for some time now, I have to say I will take a well-qualified, squared away ground team than a pilot ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. I have a great deal of respect for pilots and I admire them...I dont think I would want to be in control of an object flying through the air, let alone be responsible for my observer and spotters safety. But the fact is that there are SAR organizations all over the country that have NO planes or pilots. Pilots may fly over and spot wreckage or even see the body of a person if flying low enough, but its the ground pounders who put their a** over all kinds of terrain in all kinds of weather to rescue a survivor or recover a body, all the while carrying gear that they need, plus what a survivor might need. And when was that last time a SAR pilot zipped a crash victim into a body bag and carried them out on a Stokes? Ive done it three times now...along with some other fat SAR slobs.

7. Fortunately, compassion and the desire to serve our fellow human beings isnt weight based. Its attitude based.  When I recently stopped a small child from choking to death, the mother hugged me and thanked me. I dont recall her saying "but you could stand to lose a few pounds and that goatee has got to go.

Im probably already going to get spanked for the length and content of this post. I find myself a little queasy that I feel so blessed to serve my community and my country through CAP but that I have the misfortune to have to do it with many people who think that overweight or bearded people dont deserve to be given the right to serve because we dont appear on the cover of a fashion magazine.

Semper Vi! That is all.

[Hawk200]

I find myself a little queasy that I feel so blessed to serve my community and my country through CAP but that I have the misfortune to have to do it with many people who think that overweight or bearded people dont deserve to be given the right to serve because we dont appear on the cover of a fashion magazine.

I would hope you realize that not everyone that has responded to your previous posts have issue with your weight or beard.

[Pumbaa]

Yeah.. well..SARMedTech... My Goatee is better than yours!   

[SARMedTech]

I find myself a little queasy that I feel so blessed to serve my community and my country through CAP but that I have the misfortune to have to do it with many people who think that overweight or bearded people dont deserve to be given the right to serve because we dont appear on the cover of a fashion magazine.

I would hope you realize that not everyone that has responded to your previous posts have issue with your weight or beard.

Very true, sir, which is why I said "many" people and not "all." For the most part, the CAP officers Ive met in my short experience with the organization so far are generous, talented and all around good people. There are just some who have the "flight club" mentality or that we are somehow some kind of special ops organization in which every member must be able to stand with his team and hold a log over his head for an hour.

[SARMedTech]

Yeah.. well..SARMedTech... My Goatee is better than yours!   

Yeah...well...well....my dad can beat up your dad. 

PS- Bravo Zulu for your new avatar.   By the way, how do I get myself one of them there cute little guys?

[Pumbaa]

Yeah...well...well....my dad can beat up your dad.

Please!!! Send your dad right away!!!  I would love to have him kick my old mans butt!!! Someone needs to knock some sense into that evil S.O............ yeah well..

That is one of the many Portal People that Tedda did and I grabbed a few when he closed down the portal.  I've just been hacking them up with photoshop, probably insuling Tedda in the meantime...

[Hawk200]

Very true, sir, which is why I said "many" people and not "all." For the most part, the CAP officers Ive met in my short experience with the organization so far are generous, talented and all around good people. There are just some who have the "flight club" mentality or that we are somehow some kind of special ops organization in which every member must be able to stand with his team and hold a log over his head for an hour.

I'm glad we're on an even keel there. Personally, I am a strong supporter of "agreeing to disagree", but I felt lumped into a group that I wasn't part of, and don't agree with anyway. Misunderstanding on my part.

I will agree that there are some over the top types in CAP. Many of the guys in the Army that I have been associated with recently (involuntarily) would consider many of them "ate up".

You don't need a 100 pund ruck for anything in CAP. I don't pack that much for a week long event. Twenty pounds, and a vehicle within three miles is the smart way to do things as far as I'm concerned. Asked my commander one time if he had a pack prepped at all. He said, "You know that comm trailer out there? That's my pack." Seems quite reasonable when you think about it.

[SARMedTech]

Very true, sir, which is why I said "many" people and not "all." For the most part, the CAP officers Ive met in my short experience with the organization so far are generous, talented and all around good people. There are just some who have the "flight club" mentality or that we are somehow some kind of special ops organization in which every member must be able to stand with his team and hold a log over his head for an hour.

I'm glad we're on an even keel there. Personally, I am a strong supporter of "agreeing to disagree", but I felt lumped into a group that I wasn't part of, and don't agree with anyway. Misunderstanding on my part.

I will agree that there are some over the top types in CAP. Many of the guys in the Army that I have been associated with recently (involuntarily) would consider many of them "ate up".

You don't need a 100 pund ruck for anything in CAP. I don't pack that much for a week long event. Twenty pounds, and a vehicle within three miles is the smart way to do things as far as I'm concerned. Asked my commander one time if he had a pack prepped at all. He said, "You know that comm trailer out there? That's my pack." Seems quite reasonable when you think about it.

I too am glad we cleared up any misunderstanding. Im not fond of having bad blood among comrades. As I have often said I am a huge gear geek, but even I am not going to carry 100 pounds around. I have a high school friend (high school was longer ago that I care to think about) who is now a USCG Rescue Swimmer. He is fond of saying that his work equipment consists of a snorkel, swim fins and a switchblade. Do you think CAP could be made to look as glamorous if we made a Guardian type movie?   "Ma'am, Im a ground pounder with the Civil Air Patrol and Im here to...well Im not actually sure what Im here to do, but do you think I look fat in these BDUs?" 

[Pumbaa]

SARMedTech said: well Im not actually sure what Im here to do, but do you think I look fat in these BDUs?" 

OK now that does it!!!

SARMedTech YOU owe me a new keyboard and a NEW monitor!!!  I spit my morning drink all over the place on that one!!!

DAgnabbit! 4:30 AM and my keyboard is all sticky.. uhhh.. now wait one minute.... scratch that one...

Check out my new sig....

[SARMedTech]

Uh Rah, LT.  Sorry about your computer but I just couldnt resist that statement of my feelings about the whole uniform cult. If you ever make it up to Illinois, Ill buy you a beer and a steak and our goatees can have their pictures taken together (in green flight suits of course.)

Semper Vi!