Wear of Uniforms Optional?

[Eclipse]

Actually, she wouldn't be a health service officer, she would be a nurse officer.  And as interesting as it has always been, the only mandatory uniform for cadets is the minimum basic uniform, blue shirt, blue pants, etc., and all other uniforms are optional, unless provided by the squadron or if the wear is voluntary.  In other words, unless the squadron provides the cadet with BDU's, they can not be required to wear them.  I have always found this to be intersting and of great debate value as some squadrons apparently have access to great stores of BDU's and others don't. Oh, and by the way, Roxan, if you will move from Kansas to Georgia and be in my squadron, I will buy you a uniform..

True enough for cadets, to a point.  They can't be mandated to wear a non-issued uniform for standard unit activities, but they are also not granted a pass on supplemental equipment or uniform requirements for ES.

So, want to be a GTM?  BDU required.  First thing on the 101 is "proper uniform".

[capchiro]

Bob, true enough, but fortunately ES is not part of the mandated cadet program and would therefore be voluntary.  On the other hand, to progress satisfactorily in the cadet program, one must attend basic encampment and the powers that be always require 2 sets of BDU's in spite of the Reg's.  I wish we could put more pressure on the Air Force to help us out with this.  I think maybe some Wings have better personnel, policies, or relationships with the DRMO or whatever it is called where old uniforms go to die.   

[ddelaney103]

Bob, true enough, but fortunately ES is not part of the mandated cadet program and would therefore be voluntary.  On the other hand, to progress satisfactorily in the cadet program, one must attend basic encampment and the powers that be always require 2 sets of BDU's in spite of the Reg's. 

You also have to pay to go to encampment.  Sorry, but the CP isn't a free ride.

[Dragoon]

I kind of wish we'd change the mandatory uniform to BDUs.  Cadets can do the vast majority of the program in those.  Encampments can certainly be done in BDUs, as can squadron meetings.

Blues are very nice, but not anywhere near as needed.  In todays world, there are few times you can't get away with BDUs.

[capchiro]

That still doesn't make the price of oranges different.  We were discussing the fact that cadets can't be mandated to wear anything other than the basic blue uniform to participate in the cadet program unless the uniform is supplied by the squadron or the wear of it is voluntary.  To progress, a cadet must go to basic encampment.  Encampment commanders require BDU's and this is a violation of the Reg's.  This is a fact, not an opinion.  The Reg's either should be changed or enforced.  Considering that we have 20,000 cadets total, I think the Air Force could supply us with old BDU's especially as they have made so many changes in theirs.  Why should my cadets have to go to the Army-Navy Store and buy used BDU's that should have been given to them instead of being sold for next to nothing to the Army-Navy Supply store?  There is a break down in supply and need somewhere and I think we could/should use the Reg's to assist us in putting pressure on the Air Force to help us out.  I am not arguing that there are not any expenses to be a cadet, I am only arguing that we as commanders are in violation of the Reg's if we require the wear of BDU's for participation in the Cadet program.

[capchiro]

On the other hand, in the ancient times, when we wore Khaki's as cadets, we didn't have BDU's or fatigues  We wore Khaki's all the time and took gym shorts and T-shirts to encampment and that was it.  Since ES is not an official part of the cadet program, a good argument could be made that the Basic Blue uniform could be worn all of the time and our little Rambo's could learn to conduct themselves as Officers and Gentlemen/Ladies during the meetings.  Just a thought of course as all cadets are perfectly behaved at all times..

[Dragoon]

That still doesn't make the price of oranges different.  We were discussing the fact that cadets can't be mandated to wear anything other than the basic blue uniform to participate in the cadet program unless the uniform is supplied by the squadron or the wear of it is voluntary.  To progress, a cadet must go to basic encampment.  Encampment commanders require BDU's and this is a violation of the Reg's.  This is a fact, not an opinion.  The Reg's either should be changed or enforced.  Considering that we have 20,000 cadets total, I think the Air Force could supply us with old BDU's especially as they have made so many changes in theirs.  Why should my cadets have to go to the Army-Navy Store and buy used BDU's that should have been given to them instead of being sold for next to nothing to the Army-Navy Supply store?  There is a break down in supply and need somewhere and I think we could/should use the Reg's to assist us in putting pressure on the Air Force to help us out.  I am not arguing that there are not any expenses to be a cadet, I am only arguing that we as commanders are in violation of the Reg's if we require the wear of BDU's for participation in the Cadet program.

First, if the required uniform was BDUs, then the cadet uniform program would give the vast majority of cadets a set of free BDUs instead of free blues, so that would help.

Around here we DO get old BDUs from USAF and the Guard.

But you are right we are in violation of the regs if we require BDUS for the cadets.  I think the current dodge is "we let you participate in the program, but you will not be able to attend all the activities (like encampment) if you don't buy BDUs."

Not a great answer, but my guess is that is the mindset.

[Dragoon]

On the other hand, in the ancient times, when we wore Khaki's as cadets, we didn't have BDU's or fatigues  We wore Khaki's all the time and took gym shorts and T-shirts to encampment and that was it.  Since ES is not an official part of the cadet program, a good argument could be made that the Basic Blue uniform could be worn all of the time and our little Rambo's could learn to conduct themselves as Officers and Gentlemen/Ladies during the meetings.  Just a thought of course as all cadets are perfectly behaved at all times..

I love Khakis.

But the Khakis were a bit more durable than our blues (as evidenced by the fact that they were a battle uniform in the early 40s).  Today's "service dress" is definitely office and parade attire. Note that today's real airmen wear BDUS to work pretty much all the time.   Anything involving even a little sweat or the potential of grime would be better in BDUs. 

[1LtNurseOfficer]

Actually, she wouldn't be a health service officer, she would be a nurse officer.  And as interesting as it has always been, the only mandatory uniform for cadets is the minimum basic uniform, blue shirt, blue pants, etc., and all other uniforms are optional, unless provided by the squadron or if the wear is voluntary.  In other words, unless the squadron provides the cadet with BDU's, they can not be required to wear them.  I have always found this to be intersting and of great debate value as some squadrons apparently have access to great stores of BDU's and others don't. Oh, and by the way, Roxan, if you will move from Kansas to Georgia and be in my squadron, I will buy you a uniform..

Thanks for the offer.....   

But, let me clarify.... I threw that thought out as a theoritical possibility.  I, personally, have my uniforms and the financial ability to participate (and I'm up to my elbows!).  I was just thinking about 'those less fortunate' who are great youth leaders and mentors.  Talk about a huge dis.........

[RiverAux]

Uh, I'd like to see a CAP regulation quote where it says that cadets can't be required to wear anything but the blues.  Yes, it is the free uniform that we provide them, but I'm not aware of anything that says that other uniforms can't be required for other activities.  I'm not closely hooked into the cadet program, so could be wrong, but I'd like to see it in print. 

[Hawk200]

Uh, I'd like to see a CAP regulation quote where it says that cadets can't be required to wear anything but the blues.  Yes, it is the free uniform that we provide them, but I'm not aware of anything that says that other uniforms can't be required for other activities.  I'm not closely hooked into the cadet program, so could be wrong, but I'd like to see it in print. 

CAPM 39-1, para 1-5, "Uniform combinations", Line 4: "The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below."

Para 1-5 a., "Minimum Basic Service Uniform"  : "Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem."

And then:

Para 1-5, Lines 10 through 12: "Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet."

Basically, you can't require it if it's not the minimum basic uniform, you don't issue, or they choose not to purchase themselves.

[RiverAux]

Thanks.  Seems to me that this needs to be changed since BDUs are absolutely necessary for ground SAR and is primarily a cadet activity anyway.   

[MIKE]

... But ES is not a requirement of the Cadet Program.

[RiverAux]

So??  According to the cited regulation you couldn't require a cadet who is participating in the ES program to wear BDUs UNLESS you interpret the regulation as saying that if the cadet has volunteered to particiapte in the ES program then their purchase of the BDUs voluntary, which would be ok according to the regulation.

Basically, that clause needs some clarification.

[Hawk200]

So??  According to the cited regulation you couldn't require a cadet who is participating in the ES program to wear BDUs UNLESS you interpret the regulation as saying that if the cadet has volunteered to particiapte in the ES program then their purchase of the BDUs voluntary, which would be ok according to the regulation.

Basically, that clause needs some clarification.

Your reasoning is backwards. The appropriate uniform is a necessity of the function, not vice versa. If a cadet shows up in blues for a ground team sortie, I'm fairly certain that he/she won't be going. He can sign off on MSA or something, but a blue uniform is inappropriate for the field.

And the uniform manual doesn't give the option of roundabout reasoning to justify the requirement. A cadet is required to have the minimum basic uniform. The minimum basic uniform is short sleeve blues, not short sleeve blues unless....Uniforms appropriate to other events goes a long way to participating in those events. Any unit commander I know (and myself being a former commander) would not take very kindly to a cadet saying they wanted to do ground team, but they wouldn't buy a utility uniform of some kind. It would be far different if they expressed interest but couldn't afford it. Any member is not entitled to do anything they want, and then impose their own limitations.

I know that in the Air Force if I showed up in blues in the morning, I better have a board or something, or I would be told to go and change. If I didn't, Hades would be sending me a bill. When I spent a year in customer service, even as a maintenance troop, I wore blues. It was appropriate uniform. Or more simply put, I used the right tool for the right job.

[RiverAux]

Hey, I'm on your side here.   Obviously whoever wrote the uniform manual lacked commonsense or else they wouldn't have put in such a dumb statement in the first place. 

[Hawk200]

Hey, I'm on your side here.   Obviously whoever wrote the uniform manual lacked commonsense or else they wouldn't have put in such a dumb statement in the first place. 

I wasn't trying to be harsh, just point out the logic of it. I apologize for giving you a negative impression.

I don't know who wrote the uniform manual, and whether they were military or not doesn't matter. It leaves out a number of items that should be explained, or else leaves it to the reader to interpret it, which it should not be doing (and an explanation of "that's how we've been doing it, even though it's not in the manual anymore" doesn't cut it). A well written manual doesn't leave any leeway on whether something is authorized or not, or leave the reader wondering. Sometimes the obvious is ridiculous, the not so obvious is intelligent (which could be an accident for all I know.)

Of course, it has to be read in its entirety as well. There are some things buried in it that should be far more easily accessible for that reason.

[Tubacap]

Has anyone ever approached USAF about just adding USAF style CAP uniforms to the AFI?

[Hawk200]

Has anyone ever approached USAF about just adding USAF style CAP uniforms to the AFI?

It's an idea that's been bandied about, but never really been done. Right now, the AF uniform instruction is almost as bad. It wouldn't really solve anything. Not to mention, the AF probably doesn't really care to assume the responsibility.

[RiverAux]

Frankly, this is about the one pessimistic view I have about CAP -- I don't think our leaders would go for that since it would make it more difficult for them to change things on a whim as is done now.