Beards?

[SarDragon]

No Sir, I dont think I need to go back and read it all.  I am responding to the origional post.  I dont think beards belong in CAP.   You have to draw the line somewhere and that line may as well be the military line.  CAP already make numerous uniform exceptions as it is.

IMHO, that attitude belongs back in the 70s. The military folks don't get to wear beards because they interfere with how Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines can do their jobs. They can quickly become a safety hazard in any number of situations. I was in the Navy, with a beard, when they went away. I shaved, although not too willingly.

On my last day on active duty, I started growing my beard again, and have had it since then, less a week, when I took it off for a Halloween party, and decided that it was a long-term bad idea.

The CAP doesn't have any of those safety considerations to worry about, so that's not an issue. As for appearance, a commander can strongly suggest that a bearded member get his act together, or form 17/31 signatures for outside activities will not be forthcoming. Most folks who wear beards keep them looking good, so appearance isn't really an issue either.

I guess you would advocate forcing all of us with beards to shave or leave, removing us from the talent pool.

[Hawk200]

No Sir, I dont think I need to go back and read it all.  I am responding to the origional post.  I dont think beards belong in CAP.   You have to draw the line somewhere and that line may as well be the military line.  CAP already make numerous uniform exceptions as it is.

Just to give you a heads-up, you're setting yourself up for a barbecue. If you decide to read all the posts in the thread, you'll understand why.

And actually, there are no uniform exceptions. A beard is permitted with certain uniforms. That constitues authorization, not exception. Big difference.

[Flying Pig]

OK.   Like I said, I dont think CAP needs to allow beards.  Just giving my opinion, just like those who are for beards.  Ive read all the posts since.  And guess what?  I still dont think beards should be allowed. 

[Hawk200]

OK.   Like I said, I dont think CAP needs to allow beards.  Just giving my opinion, just like those who are for beards.  Ive read all the posts since.  And guess what?  I still dont think beards should be allowed. 

Well, it's a good start. At least now you understand the reason you should have read the whole thread.

So do you have an actual reason for disliking beards in CAP? Or is it just a knee jerk reaction of a former Marine?(BTW, that's not a challenge, it's just a question. Many people don't even think about their own opinions sometime. It happens.) If someone in your unit has a beard, how will you treat them? Would you refuse to work with them?

Around here, people like to see your reasoning. They may not agree with your reasoning, and you can rest assured that they will let you know. But if you explain why, you may change someone's mind on something. It's happened to me a number of times here.

[shorning]

No Sir, I dont think I need to go back and read it all.  I am responding to the origional post.  I dont think beards belong in CAP.   You have to draw the line somewhere and that line may as well be the military line.  CAP already make numerous uniform exceptions as it is.

Then let us follow the current Air Force model and not take any "prior service" either.  Does that work?  That would be a "military line" as well. 




Honestly, why do people insist on limiting our pool of resources?  Unless you're in an area that has so many people beating down your doors that you can afford to turn people away by the droves.

Bottom line is that it takes all kinds to make CAP run.

[SAR-EMT1]

I do not mind shaving, it's just that I tend to be lazy about it when I don't need to be clean shaved.  I also think that if beards are allowed, they need to be well groomed.  Being allowed a beard in Corporates is one thing, but make them look nice.  Not saying near to the face, but not looking like Z Z Top.

Who or what is a "Z Z Top"?

[Hawk200]

Who or what is a "Z Z Top"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZZ_Top

[dwb]

Who or what is a "Z Z Top"?

Whaaa?  Get off this forum right now!!!

'cause every girl's crazy 'bout a sharp dressed man.

[jimmydeanno]

...anyone think it's a coincidence that one of them has the last name "Beard?"

[Dragoon]

IMHO, that attitude belongs back in the 70s. The military folks don't get to wear beards because they interfere with how Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines can do their jobs. They can quickly become a safety hazard in any number of situations.   

I really doubt that's the case.  The only pragmatic reasons for being clean shaven are hygiene and getting a better seal on a mask, and perhaps in the case of HUGE beards, getting them caught in machinery.

Most folks in the military don't have a mask handy.  I didn't wear one in Iraq.  Unless you work with oxygen or expect a chemical attack, masks aren't an issue.

And military office workers here in the states don't have masks or hygiene issues - washing regularly isn't a problem.

In fact, many in the military (especially USAF types not in a combat zone) are exposed to an extremely similar environment as CAP members are.  Some time outdoors, some time inside.  Some machines (airplanes and vehicles), but no need for masks.

If the  reason the U.S. military didn't have beards was  job performance...then many many in the military would be allowed beards.

And, there wouldn't be medical waivers that allow beards - which there are.

Nope, it's about appearance.  For better or worse, there's a view of what a modern military man looks looks like - and he ain't fuzzy.  And that's today - not back in the 70s.

[dwb]

Missed this one from last week (and two pages ago):

Based on that on that theory, let me turn this around and ask you "Why should any CAP member wear any uniform at all?  Why not wear whatever the individual feels is most comfortable and most appropriate for whatever thay are doing?

Well, for one, senior members don't really have to wear uniforms at all CAP activities, only certain ones (like flying).

Second, I'm advocating the status quo (military uniforms with suitable corporate alternatives).  So I would answer your second question same as the first: the policy we have now, warts and all, basically works.

[RogueLeader]

Well, for one, senior members don't really have to wear uniforms at all CAP activities, only certain ones (like flying).

Wrong, they DO.  whether it is a meeting, flying, encampment, etc. Uniforms will be worn IAW 39-1, Table 1-1.

[ELTHunter]

I don't have anything against beards, I have worn one off and one since collage.  Since joining CAP about 9 years ago, I have limited my beard growing to periods I wouldn't need to be at a meeting or activity in uniform, basically summer vacation and most of December.  I work with cadets, so it's just my preference to wear the same uniform they do.  My personal feeling is, I can't correct their uniform mistakes if I am not setting an example by having mine squared away.  Likewise, I don't feel I can tell them not to wear their hair long or have a beard if I can elect to have one.  It was also a personal decision to lose about 40 pounds when I joined CAP so I could wear the USAF uniforms.  I was 34 then, and losing weight was a lot easier.

I can see the argument on both sides.  Besides the personal reasons I stated earlier, I also feel that if you are in any of the BDU, flight suit or any of the class "A" or "B"(before everyone starts posting telling me there is no such thing in CAP, save it.  I am just using the terminology to get the point across) USAF or Corporate variations that have military style grade insignia (pretty much anything except the golf shirt and slacks or blazer combo), people look at our members and associate them with the USAF.  Because if this, I think it presents a better image if one is clean shaven.  That isn't to say that we should ban members with beards, or that they are any less effective at their jobs.

Just as the military has no grooming standards for civilian contractors and employees who do not wear uniforms or insignia, perhaps senior members who elect to have a beard should not be allowed to wear any type of military style grade insignia.

[SarDragon]

IMHO, that attitude belongs back in the 70s. The military folks don't get to wear beards because they interfere with how Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines can do their jobs. They can quickly become a safety hazard in any number of situations.   

I really doubt that's the case.  The only pragmatic reasons for being clean shaven are hygiene and getting a better seal on a mask, and perhaps in the case of HUGE beards, getting them caught in machinery.

Most folks in the military don't have a mask handy.  I didn't wear one in Iraq.  Unless you work with oxygen or expect a chemical attack, masks aren't an issue.

And military office workers here in the states don't have masks or hygiene issues - washing regularly isn't a problem.

In fact, many in the military (especially USAF types not in a combat zone) are exposed to an extremely similar environment as CAP members are.  Some time outdoors, some time inside.  Some machines (airplanes and vehicles), but no need for masks.

If the  reason the U.S. military didn't have beards was  job performance...then many many in the military would be allowed beards.

And, there wouldn't be medical waivers that allow beards - which there are.

Nope, it's about appearance.  For better or worse, there's a view of what a modern military man looks looks like - and he ain't fuzzy.  And that's today - not back in the 70s.

Yes, appearance was/is an issue. And hygiene. and safety. Another factor was the double standard involved - some folks were precluded from wearing them because of their jobs (more than you think when you consider shipboard conditions), and others had no such restrictions. It was better to just ban them entirely and move on.

Just as the military has no grooming standards for civilian contractors and employees who do not wear uniforms or insignia, perhaps senior members who elect to have a beard should not be allowed to wear any type of military style grade insignia.

Whyzat? They have already taken away our military badges and ribbons. What would you suggest it its place?

[SARMedTech]

Its a bit off the subject, but still to do with "military style" grooming. I was watching a documentary the other night about spec ops folks in Iraq. Can anyone tell me why all of them were wearing beards and most of them had long-ish, very shaggy hair. They seemed to be having alot of interaction with Iraqi civilians and I wondered if it was because a beard is the "sign of a man" in many Arabic countries.

Thanks to anyone who can answer this one for me.

[shorning]

Can anyone tell me why all of them were wearing beards and most of them had long-ish, very shaggy hair.

Are you going to tell them that they don't meet dress and appearance standards?

[davedove]

Its a bit off the subject, but still to do with "military style" grooming. I was watching a documentary the other night about spec ops folks in Iraq. Can anyone tell me why all of them were wearing beards and most of them had long-ish, very shaggy hair. They seemed to be having alot of interaction with Iraqi civilians and I wondered if it was because a beard is the "sign of a man" in many Arabic countries.

Thanks to anyone who can answer this one for me.

That might be part of it.  Spec Ops folks often are allowed relaxed grooming standards to better fit in with the locals.

[Hawk200]

Just as the military has no grooming standards for civilian contractors and employees who do not wear uniforms or insignia, perhaps senior members who elect to have a beard should not be allowed to wear any type of military style grade insignia.

I can think of one uniformed service member whose most prominent assignment wore a beard for many years. I'd have to dig to see if it would be permitted now, but the person was highly respected, and I don't think anyone ever challenged his beard.

Wearing rank insignia shouldn't preclude facial hair. Neatness is a serious issue, and the reference above kind of shows my point. Having a scaggly beard with stubble all over your neck isn't neat, or professional, most people probably consider it lazy. Even a person with a neatly maintained beard still uses a razor or trimmer on a regular basis, they still have the same morning ritual I do. And as it has been pointed out in the past, there is probably a medical reason or three that doesn't really permit regular shaving.

And for the record, I don't wear a beard. Being in the Guard precludes that option for me. But I don't have any issues with an individual that has one in CAP. Doesn't affect their job performance.

If you want to draw the military line, you have to go all the way with it, if you have any conviction. Picking one military standard and dispensing with another lacks conviction to me. Personally, I think drawing the whole line would eliminate many of our current members, and bar many others from serving their community in many ways that they can only do in CAP. And that will reduce the concept of a Civil Air Patrol.

[dwb]

Wrong, they DO.  whether it is a meeting, flying, encampment, etc. Uniforms will be worn IAW 39-1, Table 1-1.

Ah, I stand corrected.  Previous versions of the uniform manual didn't include such strong language regarding uniform wear.

[Dragoon]

Just as the military has no grooming standards for civilian contractors and employees who do not wear uniforms or insignia, perhaps senior members who elect to have a beard should not be allowed to wear any type of military style grade insignia.

We used to do something like that - I know that big guys could wear BDUs and flight suits without rank, and I believe it applied to beards as well.

Of course, the weird thing was that these folks were still CAP officers, still had rank titles, but just couldn't wear the grade.  Which made little sense.

In the real military, there is a difference in role - the contractor is not interchangeable with the military.  So seperate standards don't cause issues.  CAP doesn't work that way. And I can't imagine coming up with a CAP where you can wear a beard as long as you hold no grade and are never put in command...