Uniform bling

[RiverAux]

Okay, I have a very hard time understanding why so many people get upset about CAP having a lot of available ribbons, badges, and other assorted bling that can be put on BDUs and the dressier uniforms.  The people making these complaints usually make some remark about it making us look like some sort of tinhorn dictator in his military uniform. 

Now, I do sympathize to some extent with this view as I almost never wear anything more than my Observer wings on my blues and don't have anything I don't absolutely have to have on my BDUs.  This is partly out of laziness in keeping up an inventory of the ribbons I've earned and to some extent a belief that some of the ribbons don't really mean much, even within the world of CAP.  So, I understand where they're coming from.

That being said, I don't think anyone can say that CAP members with ribbons, badges, etc. all over the place look un-military.  Have you seen some of our military leaders lately?  Every single square inch on their chest and sleeves are covered with such items.  I'm not saying they didn't earn them and I assume they did but they look absolutely ridiculous.  So, I don't think most CAP members look any more out of line than those guys.  And, when you factor in that a fair percentage of seniors come in with a row or two of military ribbons and qualifications, we fit right in. 

Should the standards for some CAP awards be higher?  Should some "lesser" ribbons be knocked out?  Sure, I could go for that.  But, as it stands, CAPs bling policy isn't any worse than most of the military services.

[mdickinson]

One way to cut down on the number of ribbons a bit would be by having seniors* wear only their highest training award (e.g. Garber or Gill Robb Wilson ribbon) instead of all their training awards.

I mean, if at a wing conference you see by someone's ribbons that s/he has earned the Garber or Gill Robb Wilson award, then you already know what the next three ribbons on their rack are going to be: Loening, Leadership, Membership. Why bother having them there?

Example: In the Coast Guard Auxiliary, once a member has taken all five specialty tests, they earn an award. When you pin on the completed-all-five-tests award, you are required to remove the ribbon with stars that showed you had done four of the tests. Because why does someone wearing the "I've done all five tests" award need a ribbon that screams "and before I did the fifth test, guess what? I did the first four!" 

Are there any examples of active-duty services that require personnel to remove a lesser award when a higher one is earned?

* - or cadets too. In that case it would really cut down on the number of ribbons worn...

[DeputyDog]

One way to cut down on the number of ribbons a bit would be by having seniors* wear only their highest training award (e.g. Garber or Gill Robb Wilson ribbon) instead of all their training awards.

Then how would I show my SOS completion if I could only wear my Level V ribbon? 

[arajca]

IIRC, the NCAC recommended mandatory removal of all achievement and milestone awards, except for the highest earned, for cadets a couple years ago. The result - The NB removed the "some" option cadets used to have when wearing thier ribbons. Now it's "all or none".

I don't see the NB or NEC mandating the removal of any ribbons anytime soon.

[IceNine]

ok, I've said it before and I'll say it again

Look at it like this, a college student attends college for what?  To get a piece of paper, that piece of paper is the only thing they get for the work they do, and what does this piece of paper mean you ask?  It means that this person complete a pre-set amount of tasks and fulfilled a time requirement, thats it folks,  that piece of paper tells others around them what they spent/spend their time doing.  And that pays off by opening opportunities to jobs, raises, promotions, etc which all leads to feeling all warm and fuzzy inside. On the filp side a great majority of us put more time doing CAP stuff then we do to our bread earning jobs.  What is the reward/pay for our efforts and jobs well done???  Bling, we get paid in ribbons, badges, patches, coins, etc that say that we put a pre-set amount of effort into a certain task.  So while it is true that some Bling takes less time/effort to complete it still signifies effort, and in turn offers the same warm fuzzy feeling.  Admit it or not if there was physical reward, that we could show off non of us would be here caring as much as we do

[SARMedTech]

Speak for yourself, sir. You start to tread on shaky ground when you start using terms like "all" or "none." Perhaps you wouldnt be doing things if you couldnt get the bling, but there are alot of us here that would.

Semper Vigilans!

[Hawk200]

One way to cut down on the number of ribbons a bit would be by having seniors* wear only their highest training award (e.g. Garber or Gill Robb Wilson ribbon) instead of all their training awards.
...................
Are there any examples of active-duty services that require personnel to remove a lesser award when a higher one is earned?

No there is no such precedent in the US military. When you earn an award or decoration, you wear it permanently, unless it is revoked for a specific reason (usually it's because someone lied on the writeup for the decoration or other reasons that are dishonest). Even when a decoration is phased out, and no longer awarded, it can still be worn if received prior to the phaseout. The Air Force Good Conduct Medal for example, is no longer awarded, but I can still wear the one I received.

Also, the military branches do not have separate awards for education/training. What happens in the military is you get one ribbon for the first training you conmplete  (examples: Army WLC, Air Force ALS). When you attend and complete the next level of training (Army BNCOC, Air Force NCO academy), you get a device for the ribbon. This continues with each level, another device is added to the original ribbon.

I think CAP should mirror this, I would drop a few ribbons without any heartburn, I've got plenty.

[Hawk200]

One way to cut down on the number of ribbons a bit would be by having seniors* wear only their highest training award (e.g. Garber or Gill Robb Wilson ribbon) instead of all their training awards.

Then how would I show my SOS completion if I could only wear my Level V ribbon? 

Air Force officers don't get a ribbon for completing SOS, or any of their PME courses.

Food for thought...

[DeputyDog]

One way to cut down on the number of ribbons a bit would be by having seniors* wear only their highest training award (e.g. Garber or Gill Robb Wilson ribbon) instead of all their training awards.

Then how would I show my SOS completion if I could only wear my Level V ribbon? 

Air Force officers don't get a ribbon for completing SOS, or any of their PME courses.

Food for thought...

Neither do we. 

[Eclipse]

ok, I've said it before and I'll say it again

Look at it like this, a college student attends college for what?  To get a piece of paper, that piece of paper is the only thing they get for the work they do, and what does this piece of paper mean you ask?  It means that this person complete a pre-set amount of tasks and fulfilled a time requirement, thats it folks,

...um...there's probably about 100 parents on this board who are writing regular checks to a college who would like to think their kids are getting a bit more than paper.  Its called an education - much of it is subjective, doesn't occur in the classroom, and is hard to quantify, but I would also like to think that my local
bridge builders or Dr's. got a little more out of college than "a piece of paper"..

[Eclipse]

OK, I kind of like this idea, because frankly, its a PITA to have to keep buying racks and rebuilding things - just swapping out my highest level would be nice.

But with that said, what if I have a "V" for valor on my membership ribbon?   

[Dragoon]

Okay, I have a very hard time understanding why so many people get upset about CAP having a lot of available ribbons, badges, and other assorted bling that can be put on BDUs and the dressier uniforms.  The people making these complaints usually make some remark about it making us look like some sort of tinhorn dictator in his military uniform. 

Now, I do sympathize to some extent with this view as I almost never wear anything more than my Observer wings on my blues and don't have anything I don't absolutely have to have on my BDUs.  This is partly out of laziness in keeping up an inventory of the ribbons I've earned and to some extent a belief that some of the ribbons don't really mean much, even within the world of CAP.  So, I understand where they're coming from.

That being said, I don't think anyone can say that CAP members with ribbons, badges, etc. all over the place look un-military.  Have you seen some of our military leaders lately?  Every single square inch on their chest and sleeves are covered with such items.  I'm not saying they didn't earn them and I assume they did but they look absolutely ridiculous.  So, I don't think most CAP members look any more out of line than those guys.  And, when you factor in that a fair percentage of seniors come in with a row or two of military ribbons and qualifications, we fit right in. 

Should the standards for some CAP awards be higher?  Should some "lesser" ribbons be knocked out?  Sure, I could go for that.  But, as it stands, CAPs bling policy isn't any worse than most of the military services.

If the argument is purely about quantity, i.e. that it's okay if our Colonels have the same number of ribbons as thier Active Duty counterparts, then you're probably right.  It didn't used to be this way - CAP folks had more.  But with the wars on, most active folks have picked up an extra row or two, and they've caught up.

The one time we do truly "outshine" the real folks is on mess dress - we give out medals for everything.  Half or so of DoD ribbons have no medal counterpart.  So we tend to all look like Chesty Puller in mess dress.


But if the argument is about QUALITY...

Not too many militarys give our a ribbon for online course (level 1), or for finding a single non-distress ELT.  No U.S. service, to my knowlege, gives out any ribbons (much less 5) for attending officer professional schools.
Our longevity ribbon is given out after only 2 years - USAFs takes 4.  Most other services don't even have a longevity award for officers.  I don't believe that any service attending a week long  training event (like an NCSA).  Or for taking an open book test (Yeager).

Sure, there are a couple of real military "gimme's" (the Air Force Training ribbon comes to mind) - but pound for pound, ours are much easier to get.

[Hawk200]

Sure, there are a couple of real military "gimme's" (the Air Force Training ribbon comes to mind) - but pound for pound, ours are much easier to get.

Air Force Training ribbon is technically not a "gimme". You do have to complete basic to get it. I do however understand the spirit of your statement.

They kept the training ribbon, but eliminated the Good Conduct medal. A medal that in the AFI says it is conspicuous by it's absence, and casts doubt on the individual that is lacking one. I understand that Air Force personnel are expected to stay out of trouble, but I don't understand the reasoning. I've known people that actually didn't get the GCM. And yes, they did it to themselves.

[Flying Pig]

I think our ribbons are fine.  I do like the new Border Patrol ribbon and the Air Achievement ribbon.  I think those are pretty significant as far as CAP's mission.  Other than that, when you look at our ribbon chart, we really dont have that many compared to the military.

OK....the Membership ribbon, yeah, we all know the deal, but it gets members started.  Again, people are trying to draw a comparison between military ribbons and CAP.  We are a different organization. 

The Red Service ribbon.  One thing you have to consider, is in the military, you get you Good Conduct near the end of your enlistment, in the Marines its the 3 year mark.  In CAP its 2 years for the first.  But think about it.  You get it after 2 years, then only every 5 years there after.  Thats a good amount of time.  The Find Ribbon?  Yes you do get it after one find, but consider that the person is most likely a Scanner, Observer or Pilot, or a Ground Team Member.  So there is some work to lead up to the "Find". Then its what?  Every 10 after?

Most CAP Senior ribbons are pretty lagit. The ribbon is what it is.  They tell a story. Nothing more. Ours aren't going to be as glorious as a soldier returning from battle.

Ultimately, if you dont want the award, refuse to accept it when the Sq Commander calls you up. 

[Major Carrales]

Leave it as it is.  We go down this exact same road every five months or so.

However, in the spirit of compromise...let's see if we can solve this out a bit.

Consolidating all the ribbons would require, in my opinion, some major change in the CAP Officer program.


Consolidation, in my book, would look like this...

Membership ribbon- Aquired after completion of Level 1, for CAP Officers, or Curry, for Cadets.  For cadets, stars on Membership ribbon to reflect: Curry, Arnold and Feik with an awarded ribbon for Wright Bros.  The stars on the Wright Bros until Mitchell, etc.  This would still allow cadets to receive an "award" (via a star and certificate) and bring the number of ribbons down. (if that is what your after)

Davis Leadership Ribbon- This is a Spec Trac based award.  Keep it as it is.

Senior Awards, too, need to be kept as they are.  There are only five levels.

Red Service is fine as it is.

Elimate the Find Ribbon and combine its purpose with the Search and Rescue Ribbon.  Indicate finds with a clasp/star/numeral on the Search and Rescue Ribbon.

The Yeager Ribbon could also be "deviced" up to indicate some advancement in the AE program.

The Commendations and Major awards should stay as is, the National Commander's Unit Citation, however, might best be indicated by a device on a Unit Citation instead of a ribbon.  That might need to be thought over a bit since it can alread be "deviced up" for multiple awards. Hummmmm?

Just a brainstorm of things that "could be done." Still. I don't think it needs fixing.

[Flying Pig]

I agree.  It can always be changed.  Id leave it alone.

[Dragoon]

Most CAP Senior ribbons are pretty lagit. The ribbon is what it is.  They tell a story. Nothing more. Ours aren't going to be as glorious as a soldier returning from battle.

I gotta ask - what would you consider an non legit ribbon?

[davedove]

If you're comparing CAP ribbons to military ones, yeah they don't really compare.

But, as has been said so many times, we are not the military and you can't really compare.  Plus, as has also been said so many times, the only way you can really recognize our members is through the award system.  So if someone does the activity, let them have the ribbon.

[floridacyclist]

Besides, I think it's more about the position than anything anyone actually does. In the past few years, I've seen a SM turned down for the Lifesaving Ribbon because he wasn't on-duty at the time that he successfully performed CPR, a cadet and a SM turned down for SMVs with no reason given after they extricated someone from a car crash late at night on the interstate and almost got killed themselves when another car plowed into the wreck, a cadet turned down for a BMV after getting the only surviving  radio station back on the air in the middle of Hurricane Rita by wading through waist-deep floodwater for 1/2mi with diesel fuel for the generator (reason given that his actions weren't sanctioned by CAP) , and another SM turned down for SMV after helping evacuate 1,500 people from a hospital under sporadic gunfire with no reason given for the denial. Yet let a carload of brass stop to help at a car wreck (a great thing to do no doubt) and the world comes to a halt.

Sarmedtech is right...we aren't in this for the bling or some of us would have given up long ago.

[Flying Pig]

Wow!  Sounds like a few of those people need to be put back in for the award.

[jimmydeanno]

The unfortunate thing is that some of the people who make decisions about awards reject them due to jealousy (yes, I've seen it).  Sometimes people are in positions for their own personal gain and those around them getting recognized make them feel 'threatened.'  Just a sign of poor leadership.

It's sad as you look across the organization how differently awards and decorations are awarded.  There are some units (referring to all organizational units in CAP, wing, region, squadron, etc) where standard expected performance gets the award for whatever level they're at.  There are others where people go above and beyond ALL the time and their supervisor/commander is too lazy to write up a package for them.

You also see awards not being awarded properly.  For instance, cadets on drill teams or color guards receiving exceptional service medals for winning a Region Drill Competition, while the squadron commander with 10 years in the program who has commanded encampment six times and has the best squadron in the Wing doesn't even receive a Commander's Commendation. (Yes, I've seen that too)

Why don't more CAP members get awarded Commander's Commendations?  Many members fill multiple roles in the squadron.  Is that the expectation?  Is holding multiple positions and performing in them well considered a 'standard' for people.

It also drives me crazy when a commander leaves and awards all his staff whatever award for the level they're at regardless of performance or citation of why exactly they are being awarded it other than, "you were my assistant DDR officer during my term."

I don't know *rant rant*

[ColonelJack]

I received seven Commander's Commendations and one Meritorious Service Award during my time.  The first CommComm was for my service as Administrative Officer at the 1982 GAWG Encampment at Ft. Benning.  After that, I was awarded the other six CommComms and the MSA for my service as a squadron commander. 

While review boards should be thorough in nature, they should judge award requests only on the basis of merit -- did the action meet the established criteria?  If so, award it.  If not, don't.  That should clear up the confusion -- and prevent SMVs for directing traffic around accident scenes.

Jack

[RogueLeader]

What happens when the review board doesn't?

[SarDragon]

Wow!  Sounds like a few of those people need to be put back in for the award.

That only works when the resubmission is within the time limits - usually two years from the date of the event.

[ZigZag911]

When I read things like these rejected awards for valor, it makes me wonder if CAP doesn't need some sort of 'omsbudspersons' with the responsibility for looking into such matters and fixing them.

Could this be a role for the National Chief Master Sergeant and his colleagues?

[ZigZag911]

Excuse me, it's late, I meant to say National Command CMS!

[Flying Pig]

Thats a load of crapolla! The time limit needs to be done away with.

Some people...me for instance....had a Sq Comm that just never got around to submitting the papers.  Oh well...this was already discussed in a prior thread.

[Sgt. Savage]

Seems to me that mimicking the military way of tracking PD course would be a better way to go. One ribbon, bronze numeral depicting level of achievement. It's simple and effective. Other than that, it might be good to tighten up the requirements for some awards and improve the recognition factor to ensure that awards are being given when earned.

It's also a good idea to ensure all awards are presented in front of the unit, to add to the recognition factor.

[ZigZag911]

One advantage to keeping the present system is that the milestone senior awards honor significant figures in US aerospace history, and in some cases early CAP leaders.

Our system is not only CAP PME....it is a means also of educating our members on who we are an where we came from....the Real Military has a deeper sense of its own rich history and heritage, and so does not need the same tools we use....in part because it has other tools and traditions to reinforce this knowledge, that are lacking to CAP....for instance, unit colors simply don't begin to have the significance in a CAP unit -- particularly above squadron level -- that they do in the regular services.

[ColonelJack]

The unfortunate thing is that some of the people who make decisions about awards reject them due to jealousy (yes, I've seen it).  Sometimes people are in positions for their own personal gain and those around them getting recognized make them feel 'threatened.'  Just a sign of poor leadership.

You're right, that plays a big deal in the whole thing.  As a squadron CC, I approved several Meritorious Service Awards for outstanding performance -- long before I was ever nominated for one for having such good work done in my unit.  I had no problem with my people having more bling than I did.  Would that more people in such positions have the same attitude!

Jack