Rank on both collars question

[DrDave]

Question for the group:

Been trying to find the actual policy letter stating cadets will wear their rank on both collars of their Blues uniform.  I have found the policy letter stating both ranks on the BDU collars but can't find the one for the Blues, specifically the implimentation dates.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks,
Dr. Dave

[Mustang]

It's in the March National Board minutes, hasn't been implemented by interim change letter yet.

[DrDave]

Thanks!  I knew I saw it somewhere!

Dr. Dave

[Pylon]

...which brings up another great topic:  Since it's been three months now, when can we expect to see the rest of these changes from the March NB (let alone the recent NEC meeting) in Interim Change Letter form?   

[Hawk200]

...which brings up another great topic:  Since it's been three months now, when can we expect to see the rest of these changes from the March NB (let alone the recent NEC meeting) in Interim Change Letter form?   

September 22nd...

[mikeylikey]

OR Never!

[Hawk200]

OR Never!

Yeah, that's probably a viably date as well.

[DrDave]

After looking over the March NB draft minutes detailing the approval of the rank on both sides of the cadet blues uniform, and bringing it up during our monthly Group Command and Staff meeting, one of my squadron commanders pointed out something that wasn't initially obvious to me.

The approved regulation specificially refers to cadet NCO grades.  Those don't start until Staff Sergeant (Wright Bros Award).

So do the three cadet enlisted (i.e. non-NCO) ranks below Staff Sergeant STILL wear CAP cutout on their left collar on the blues (Airman Basic, Airman, A1C)?

Dr. Dave

[SAR-EMT1]

While it may initially look that way, the true cause for that wordage was that some folks refused to refer to cadets as 'enlisted'  I would humbly Assume, that everyone C/Amn and up should match as it were and go with both sides identical. However, this is an assumption on my part and doesnt count for anything.

[G+10]

Doctor Major,

It is true, when they refer to NCO they mean both airman and Sergeant grades (which are all considered as enlisted grades, as in the military they are enlisted as opposed to officers who are commissioned.)

From what I understand as soon as the letter comes out this change is in effect and not before.

John Gniewkowski
Spirit of St Louis Composite

[CASH172]

September 22nd...

Any reason to think that date other than a guess. 

[DrDave]

Hey, John-G, good to hear from you!

Thanks for the clarification.

Dr. Dave

Major-Doctor, Doctor-Major

[SarDragon]

Is a Major-Doctor better or worse than a Major Malfunction?

[Hawk200]

September 22nd...

Any reason to think that date other than a guess. 

It wasn't even an educated guess. It was a smart aleck joke. There really wasn't any 'reason' to it at all.

[DrDave]

Could be worse, could be

Major Hassle

Major Headache

Major Oops

True story: I have a patient with the last name of Looney, he's retired Army and was a Major so he was ... wait for it ... Major Looney!

Second true story: A member of our Wing's cadet program staff goes by the callsign of "Trouble" at cadet events.  Well, she recently got promoted to Major and her new call sign is -- yep -- Major Trouble!

Dr. Dave

"[darnit] Jim, I'm a Doctor not a Doc ... oh, oh yeah."

[CAP428]

While it may initially look that way, the true cause for that wordage was that some folks refused to refer to cadets as 'enlisted'  I would humbly Assume, that everyone C/Amn and up should match as it were and go with both sides identical. However, this is an assumption on my part and doesnt count for anything.

I am guessing that is probably correct, though it seems silly to me for them to use an incorrect word just to avoid using the term "enlisted."  Using "NCO" just causes confusion and will doubtlessly cause a "double standard" in which part of our membership interprets it literally while th another does not, meaning we'll have people wearing the insignia differently, which is always annoying.......[sigh].

Why didn't they just say "all cadet, non-officer grade?"  That would have been too easy I guess?

[Pylon]

While it may initially look that way, the true cause for that wordage was that some folks refused to refer to cadets as 'enlisted'  I would humbly Assume, that everyone C/Amn and up should match as it were and go with both sides identical. However, this is an assumption on my part and doesnt count for anything.

If that is truly the case on why an ambiguous term was chosen over a clear one, that's terrible.  "Cadet Enlisted" as a term is no different than "Cadet NCO" or "Cadet Officer."   

Why didn't they just say "all cadet, non-officer grade?"  That would have been too easy I guess?

You could also use "All cadets C/AB through C/CMSGt, inclusive." and all sorts of other work-arounds but I just think it's pointless to use protracted, lengthy phrases to describe something as simple as "Cadet Enlisted."  There's nothing wrong with that term.

[MIKE]

CAPM 39-1 uses the term "Airman" as the all inclusive unless otherwise specified term, as in not "Officers" term.  Still confused? 

[Pylon]

CAPM 39-1 uses the term "Airman" as the all inclusive unless otherwise specified term, as in not "Officers" term.  Still confused? 

I am confused by that because the term Airman can and is used to describe all members of the Air Force from AB up to Gen - much in the same way that sailor, soldier, and Marine are used.  It's not necessarily specific to a certain subset of ranks/grades where as "Enlisted" is.

[Hawk200]

You could also use "All cadets C/AB through C/CMSGt, inclusive." and all sorts of other work-arounds but I just think it's pointless to use protracted, lengthy phrases to describe something as simple as "Cadet Enlisted."  There's nothing wrong with that term.

Being a military enlisted man, I have a problem with that term. Those cadets are not "enlisted". They didn't take any oaths to the country, so it doesn't apply to them. Not diminishing their accomplishments or position, but it isn't what they are. It's pretty easy to say "Cadet Airman and NCO's".

Even with CAP Senior Member NCO's, it's not really accurate. It's more appropriate than "Cadet Enlisted", because those people at one time did enlist in the military. However, since we don't have any Airman grades (E-1 to E4), it's really a moot point. Senior Members with stripes are only NCO's, so it's easier to just call them that.

[Pylon]

Being a military enlisted man, I have a problem with that term.

Okay, I see - you want the military to be the only organization that can apply the term enlisted to a group of its people. 

I've never heard of a military officer balking at CAP calling cadets in Phase III and IV "Cadet Officers."    What about Phase II "Cadet NCOs" - should we stop using that term, too, because a military NCO might be offended at the parellels that might be drawn?

You have an objection to the term "Enlisted" being used, because you are a "military enlisted man."  Well then, should we discontinue use of our entire cadet grade system because for every Cadet Senior Airman, there is a real Senior Airman in the Air Force who may be offended?    Maybe, to appease you, we could rework the program like this:  "Cadet Achievement 4 Smith, come forward to receive your Civilian Aerospace Pioneer Award for outstanding performance as an Assistant Manager of your CAP Branch Location!  The Branch Manager extends his congratulations!"    That way we wouldn't offend anybody, who is in any of the classes of terms we use for our Cadet Program.   (Well, then we might get people in corporate America offended.  I, for one, am offended that any cadet could consider themselves a Cadet Public Affairs Officer, as a PR professional myself.  It's not the same thing and it's wrong.) 

Oh wait, I thought that's why we prefaced all the ranks and titles with "Cadet" - so people could realize and understand the difference between a Cadet ____ and an actual military _____.  Guess nobody noticed that distinction.



Frankly, why would you be offended?  The entire structure of the Cadet Program, by it's very nature, mirrors that of the military.   So why the surprise?

In the military, Lieutenants, Captains, Majors and Colonels are called officers.  In CAP's Cadet Program, we call our Cadet Lieutenants, Cadet Captains and Cadet Majors "Cadet Officers."   I haven't heard the outcry from the Military Officer's Association of America yet.

We call our Air Force Airmen and Sergeants "enlisted" so what should we call our Cadet Airmen and Cadet Sergeants?   We need to find a different term! 

[Matt]

[...]They didn't take any oaths to the country...

Another note that Pylon didn't grab, was Cadets do take a Cadet Oath stating, "[...]To advance in my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation."

emphasis mine.

You're telling me that they haven't taken any oath to their country, I have to respectfully disagree, I think you're quite wrong.  It may not be the same as an oath of enlistment, but they have taken an oath that they're going to serve their COMMUNITY, STATE, and NATION...

[Hawk200]

Okay, I see - you want the military to be the only organization that can apply the term enlisted to a group of its people.

As a matter of fact, yes.

I've never heard of a military officer balking at CAP calling cadets in Phase III and IV "Cadet Officers." 

Not the same as calling them "commisioned". The comparison isn't remotely similar to what I have issue with. A military officer would probably balk at calling cadet officers "commisioned". I imagine there's a few here you could ask.

What about Phase II "Cadet NCOs" - should we stop using that term, too, because a military NCO might be offended at the parellels that might be drawn?

If you'd paid attention to my post, you would have found that I actually suggested that. Would be pretty stupid to make a suggestion that I was against wouldn't it?

Oh wait, I thought that's why we prefaced all the ranks and titles with "Cadet" - so people could realize and understand the difference between a Cadet ____ and an actual military _____.  Guess nobody noticed that distinction.

I certainly noticed, and that why I both suggested and use those terms. If you don't think I do that, then you misunderstand me, or chose not to in the first place.

Frankly, why would you be offended?  The entire structure of the Cadet Program, by it's very nature, mirrors that of the military.   So why the surprise?

Maybe mirrors isn't an appropriate word. After all, you can't call a cadet to war, now can you?

In the military, Lieutenants, Captains, Majors and Colonels are called officers.  In CAP's Cadet Program, we call our Cadet Lieutenants, Cadet Captains and Cadet Majors "Cadet Officers."   I haven't heard the outcry from the Military Officer's Association of America yet.

See above.

We call our Air Force Airmen and Sergeants "enlisted" so what should we call our Cadet Airmen and Cadet Sergeants?   We need to find a different term! 

We could go with the suggestion I made: We call them "Cadet Airman and NCO's". Or "Cadet NCO's and Airman" if you're a type to get snobbish about rank.

Cadets do not have anywhere near the obligations as I do being enlisted in a branch of the United States military. They can quit at any time. I cannot. It is nowhere near the same thing. Show me an obligation that any cadet has that even remotely compares to mine, and I might acquiese. But not until.

It's a paramilitary organization, and as such does not have the same requirements as the regular military. People may take it seriously, that's commendable, as well as highly profesional behaviour. But it is not a commision, any more than we have "enlistments".

For starters, a juvenile of those ages cannot enlist. There is allowance for 17 year olds, but it requires parental permission. Which is also what the cadet program requires.

See my point yet?

[Hawk200]

[...]They didn't take any oaths to the country...

Another note that Pylon didn't grab, was Cadets do take a Cadet Oath stating, "[...]To advance in my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation."

emphasis mine.

You're telling me that they haven't taken any oath to their country, I have to respectfully disagree, I think you're quite wrong.  It may not be the same as an oath of enlistment, but they have taken an oath that they're going to serve their COMMUNITY, STATE, and NATION...

Emphasis added. It says "to prepare myself". It does not state any obligation of service. If you tried to compel a cadet to do anything by using that as proof, you'll get laughed out of a courtroom.  It's only a promise to prepare, not a promise of service. You may disagree, but the evidence you provided is actually in contradiction to your own statement.

[RiverAux]

See my point yet?

Yes, you're getting offended over something that doesn't matter much just like the people who get hopped up when someone accidentally uses E-4, E-5, etc. in casual conversation about CAP. 

[SarDragon]

Hawk, I think you need to lighten up a bit. The resident household enlisted folks here have no heartburn with using military terminology like "NCO" and "enlisted" to refer to cadets. Our service totals 45 years in the USN, and slightly less in CAP.

I prefer the term "airmen",  but as others have pointed out, that can be a generic term referring to all AF members, E-1 -> O-10, or just the non-NCO folks, based on context. So let's collectively call the Phase I and Phase II cadets "enlisted, and be done with it.

As usual, YMMV.

[Hawk200]

OK, I'll make one more post on this and then I'll let it go.

en·list·ed : of, relating to, or constituting the part of a military or naval force below commissioned or warrant officers

If you want to verify, here's the link: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/enlisted

Explain to me, in a logical and reasonable manner, how cadets relate to that definition. I seriously doubt anyone can, without applying a definition of their own.

Besides, we've been calling them "Cadet Airman and NCO's", why throw something new into the mix?

[SarDragon]

OK, I'll make one more post on this and then I'll let it go.

en·list·ed : of, relating to, or constituting the part of a military or naval force below commissioned or warrant officers

If you want to verify, here's the link: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/enlisted

Explain to me, in a logical and reasonable manner, how cadets relate to that definition. I seriously doubt anyone can, without applying a definition of their own.

Besides, we've been calling them "Cadet Airman and NCO's", why throw something new into the mix?

Your definition is exact, and correct.

We've always worked in parallels to the military, originally the Army, and now the Air Force, modifying the bits and pieces as needed to make CAP work as its own entity. These items include uniforms and terminology.

"Cadet enlisted" is not an ideal term, for the reasons you have stated. "Cadet Airmen and NCOs" is functional, but awkward, and no closer to being ideal.

I have no better ideas, nor, it appears, does anyone else posting here. I just think the issue isn't important enough inside the big picture to get that excited about.

[BillB]

Until very recently, I've never heard about cadets being called "enlisted", there were cadets, Cadet NCO's or cadet officers. As far as cadets being called NCO's that traces back to World War II USAAF recruiting materials (you can only find them now on eBay) Oroginally the cadet program had no officers, C/MSgt was as high as a cadet could go. Theye were not "enlisted, they were Civil Air Patrol Cadets, PFC through MSgt.
So where did the term "enlisted" come from? To be correct now you address a cadet as Cadet Airman, Cadet Chief Master Sergeant or what ever the gade is preceeded by cadet.
But the term "enlisted" grew out of the early days of CAP due to the 1942-54 grade structure where NCO grades were used. Then what is now E-1 through E-7 were considered "enlisted" grades since CAP wore the same grade insignia as the USAAF and later USAF.

[Mustang]

You could also use "All cadets C/AB through C/CMSGt, inclusive." and all sorts of other work-arounds but I just think it's pointless to use protracted, lengthy phrases to describe something as simple as "Cadet Enlisted."  There's nothing wrong with that term.

Being a military enlisted man, I have a problem with that term. Those cadets are not "enlisted". They didn't take any oaths to the country, so it doesn't apply to them. Not diminishing their accomplishments or position, but it isn't what they are.

Yeah well the Cadet NCOs and Officers aren't really NCOs or officers either. Get off your high horse already.

[Hawk200]

Yeah well the Cadet NCOs and Officers aren't really NCOs or officers either.

OK, I don't agree with that, but everyone has their reasons.

Get off your high horse already.

Sorry, did I take your seat?

[G+10]

<snip>

I have no better ideas, nor, it appears, does anyone else posting here. I just think the issue isn't important enough inside the big picture to get that excited about.

SarDragon Dave, you've hit the nail on the head here!

Major Doctor Dave, See what you have started here with your innocent questions about rank on both collars! Don't worry folks, he is a know rabble rouser! You should see the grief he gives me as a former safety officer!!

John Gniewkowski

[Sgt. Savage]

Regarding the confusing verbage:

Why didn't the NB just say that all cadets will be wearing rank on both collars? That would have saved us from the insanity that is this thread.

Just for arguments sake, Answers.com defines enlisted as:

en·list·ed (&#277;n-l&#301;s't&#301;d)
adj.
Of, relating to, or being a member of a military rank below a commissioned officer or warrant officer.

One could argue that as a member of a military auxiliary, a cadet fits into this definition. I think just calling them all cadet works for me.