Stars on Badges

[SDF_Specialist]

According to some people I know, the GT badge with a star means GTL. They also say that the GT badge with the star and olive branches means GBD. Now I know this isn't true. That only shows how many AF missions one has been on. So why is it that when Wing ES staff is aware that a cadet is wearing this badge, nothing is done? That just interests me.

[arajca]

What does the reg say?

[JC004]

?!

Basic = GTM; Star = GTL; Star & Wreath = GBD

The only bling for the number of missions is the SAR ribbon, which is not especially easy to get.

[JohnKachenmeister]

According to some people I know, the GT badge with a star means GTL. They also say that the GT badge with the star and olive branches means GBD. Now I know this isn't true. That only shows how many AF missions one has been on. So why is it that when Wing ES staff is aware that a cadet is wearing this badge, nothing is done? That just interests me.

I don't understand your question.

It IS true that the star is for GTL, and the star+wreath is for GDB.

A cadet CAN wear the GTL badge if he has met the standards and is 18 years old.

[SDF_Specialist]

Well my issue is why is that they part of CAP that has uniform infractions are are never called on it when it is noticed by someone who is knowledgeable? Why are those who point things out quietly looked at as a "narc"? With the way some things are, I wonder if I could get away with wearing the master MP badge? No, I'm not a pilot. Just blowing off some steam.

[SarDragon]

People don't like being told that they are wrong. It's even worse when the informer uses no tact in the process.

At my last wing conference, I pointed out over two dozen uniform infractions to various SMs, and most were thankful. A couple were offended that a mere captain had the temerity to tell a lieutenant colonel that he was wearing his ribbons wrong, in spite of the difference in the nature of the attachments to their respective red service ribbons (a 20 vs. a single clasp).

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well my issue is why is that they part of CAP that has uniform infractions are are never called on it when it is noticed by someone who is knowledgeable? Why are those who point things out quietly looked at as a "narc"? With the way some things are, I wonder if I could get away with wearing the master MP badge? No, I'm not a pilot. Just blowing off some steam.

Ryan:

OK, are you saying that a cadet was seen wearing a GT badge that he was not authorized to wear, and that he was not corrected by an officer who knew that he was not entitled to wear it?  I'm still not sure what your comment is about.

[Eclipse]

Honestly, I have a hard time believing that a group of members could be THIS uninformed about the program, and no one has seen fit to correct them.

Assuming this is true, its likely an aircrew-type confusing the way you get a wreath on
the Observer Wings.

1lt, I know this isn't your fault, and I'm sure you're gonna get crap for pointing it out, but geez....I mean...come on.

I would be willing to bet that if they are this far off on something simple like a GT badge, the rest of their get-ups must be just amazing.

[Hawk200]

I would be willing to bet that if they are this far off on something simple like a GT badge, the rest of their get-ups must be just amazing.

I've seen some doozies as well. The worst one is a few people that I knew of that thought you could wear observers wings with the flightsuit if you weren't a pilot (That was back when anyone could wear the flightsuit.) Called a few of them on it, and somehow one guy ended up working at wing. The next time I saw him in blues, he was wearing observer wings. Kind of hard to get when he'd only been in six months.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I can understand not calling someone on being a "PX Hero" if you don't know the guy.  But if you KNOW that the troop is not entitled to a badge or a ribbon, it is a point of honor to challenge him. 

I remember some years ago, the Chief of Naval Operations wore a "V" device on one of his ribbons that he was not entitled to wear.  He ended up committing suicide because he felt that he had brought dishonor to the Navy.

I have no tolerance for "PX Hero" types.  If you rate an award or badge, wear it.  If you don't rate it, you are a complete anal sphincter muscle for wearing the award.  I don't care if you are a second lieutenant wearing observer wings or a presidential candidate claiming authority to wear "The Silver Star with Combat V," which is an award combination which does not exist.

[Hawk200]

I can understand not calling someone on being a "PX Hero" if you don't know the guy.  But if you KNOW that the troop is not entitled to a badge or a ribbon, it is a point of honor to challenge him. 

I remember some years ago, the Chief of Naval Operations wore a "V" device on one of his ribbons that he was not entitled to wear.  He ended up committing suicide because he felt that he had brought dishonor to the Navy.

I have no tolerance for "PX Hero" types.  If you rate an award or badge, wear it.  If you don't rate it, you are a complete anal sphincter muscle for wearing the award.  I don't care if you are a second lieutenant wearing observer wings or a presidential candidate claiming authority to wear "The Silver Star with Combat V," which is an award combination which does not exist.

I remember that case of the Admiral. I thought he did it cause he was emberrassed. Oh well, either way, he's gone, not reason to kick crap on his grave.

I don't remember the "Silver Star with Combat V". Who was that?

The "PX hero" remark is funny. On the Air Force side, I had about 15 ribbons (been around a while). Was in school, and had an initial entry student ask me where I got them. "From military clothing, there's a big wall over there with a bunch of ribbons." The jaw drop was priceless. "You mean you just put them on?" Told him no, that he didn't ask me that. The highest dec I have is an Achievement medal (with OLC), everything else was just matter of  assignements, ALS, and generally time in service, nothing special. It's funny that people think it's impressive until I explain what most of them are.

[jimmydeanno]

Some of the snafu's I've seen in the last couple years...

1) Senior Members from NJ wearing chords.

2) Membership Ribbon with "V" device and 2 Silver Clasps.

3) Legal Badge being worn because she "was taking law classes"

4) Male wearing floppy bow tie...

5) Senior wearing gold pip because they were a flight officer...

6) Naval personnel wearing their utility pants (the blue ones with the name on the pants) with the AF blue shirt...

7) Naval Chief wearing an anchor on the blank epaulets on their CAP Blues...

8) Seniors wearing shiny metal insignia on BDUs because it was easier than sewing.

9) Prior service personnel just swapping the service tag on the BDU top and nothing else.

10) Cadet wearing, CP badge, ES Badge, Comm Badge, Marksmanship Badge, GT w/ wreath, Solo Wings, and leadership ribbon...

11) Senior wearing DR ribbon with "V" device for actions prior to joining CAP, along with command service and meritorious service...

12) Naval personnel wearing their brass ship buckle in blues...

13) Multiple members wearing the Marine Corps style ribbon holders with the gap...

14) American Flag Patch sewn above the nametape (where the ES patch goes)...

15) Cadet wearing command pin because he was C/CC

16) White sneakers in blues...

17) Prior cadets wearing cadet ribbons and badges not authorized for seniors (community service, all their achievement ribbons, model rocketry badge, etc)

There's just too much of "I think its done like this," or "I was told it's like this," instead of people picking up a regulation and reading it.

Disabled smileys - MIKE

[JohnKachenmeister]

The presidential candidate was "John Kerry."  He posted his DD-214 on line, and MoveOn.org posted it side-by-side with George Bush's  DD-214 from flight school.

The Awards and Decorations block on Kerry's was an obvious forgery.  If he had applied for a slot in my unit I would have rejected him until I got a "Clean" copy.

In the DD-214 , Kerry listed "Silver Star with Combat V" as well as 2 "Bronze Star with Combat V." 

The correct entry would be "Bronze Star Medal with V Device."  The Silver Star is NEVER awarded with a "V" device, since it is only awarded for valor in combat.  The Bronze Star and some other medals (The Air Medal, for example) can be awarded either for valor or for meritorious achievement.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Some of the snafu's I've seen in the last couple years...

1) Senior Members from NJ wearing chords.

2) Membership Ribbon with "V" device and 2 Silver Clasps.

3) Legal Badge being worn because she "was taking law classes"

4) Male wearing floppy bow tie...

5) Senior wearing gold pip because they were a flight officer...

6) Naval personnel wearing their utility pants (the blue ones with the name on the pants) with the AF blue shirt...

7) Naval Chief wearing an anchor on the blank epaulets on their CAP Blues...

8) Seniors wearing shiny metal insignia on BDUs because it was easier than sewing.

9) Prior service personnel just swapping the service tag on the BDU top and nothing else.

10) Cadet wearing, CP badge, ES Badge, Comm Badge, Marksmanship Badge, GT w/ wreath, Solo Wings, and leadership ribbon...

11) Senior wearing DR ribbon with "V" device for actions prior to joining CAP, along with command service and meritorious service...

12) Naval personnel wearing their brass ship buckle in blues...

13) Multiple members wearing the Marine Corps style ribbon holders with the gap...

14) American Flag Patch sewn above the nametape (where the ES patch goes)...

15) Cadet wearing command pin because he was C/CC

16) White sneakers in blues...

17) Prior cadets wearing cadet ribbons and badges not authorized for seniors (community service, all their achievement ribbons, model rocketry badge, etc)

There's just too much of "I think its done like this," or "I was told it's like this," instead of people picking up a regulation and reading it.

Disabled smileys - MIKE

Comments (By the numbers):

4.  Don't ask, don't tell?  Why would this officer wear women's clothing?

13.  The Marine Corps does not separate rows of ribbons.  The Army does.

16.  "Dress Blues and Tennis Shoes" is a figure of speech, and intended to be a joke.  It was not meant to be serious guidance.

Disabled smileys - MIKE

[JC004]

opps...accidentally deleted it...oh well

[jimmydeanno]

Comments (By the numbers):

4.  Don't ask, don't tell?  Why would this officer wear women's clothing?

13.  The Marine Corps does not separate rows of ribbons.  The Army does.

4. Something regarding needing a 'mess dress' version of the blazer combo and needing a bow tie, it reminded him of a crevat or something...  I didn't listen to the explanation for too long, but the gentleman was corrected.

13.  Thanks for that, I appreciate it

[stillamarine]

13.  The Marine Corps does not separate rows of ribbons.  The Army does.

Not Correct, Sir.  According to MCO P1020.34G Chapter 5 Section 5301

6.  Parallel rows of ribbon bars will either be spaced 1/8 inch apart or placed together without spacing at the individual's option.

[JohnKachenmeister]

13.  The Marine Corps does not separate rows of ribbons.  The Army does.

Not Correct, Sir.  According to MCO P1020.34G Chapter 5 Section 5301

6.  Parallel rows of ribbon bars will either be spaced 1/8 inch apart or placed together without spacing at the individual's option.

I stand corrected. 

[ZigZag911]

Some of the snafu's I've seen in the last couple years...
1) Senior Members from NJ wearing chords.

Some years back a well-meaning (if misguided!) NJ wing CC authorized some sort of shoulder cords for everyone involved in encampment staff, including seniors.

Not wanting to get into a debate with Wing HQ over it, some of us in our home unit tried gentle needling (in non-public settings), persuasion, and influence to get a couple of our seniors to quit wearing them with blues.

One or two of the younger officers just laughed at them, which was not the most polite approach, I'll grant you...and as ineffective as all the others, could not get these people to stop wearing those cords, even when we showed them pictures of classy NYC doormen for comparison!

Why a grown up who was not required to do so by assignment & regulation would want to be seen in public wearing those silly cords completely puzzles me!

[mdickinson]

Some of the snafu's I've seen in the last couple years...
1) Senior Members from NJ wearing chords.

Chords? Were they major, minor, or diminished?

Seriously, though - loved the list of uniform infractions. I've seen some of those myself - others were too hiliarous!

Here are the most common ones I saw at the McGuire airshow last month:

1. No American flag on BDU

2. Senior member officers wearing no grade on the BDU cap

3. Senior members wearing metal grade on the BDU cap

4. Cadets (and some seniors) wearing activity badges (National Blue Beret, National Flight Academy, etc.) on the right shirt pocket of the BDU  (where only one patch - the member's unit patch - can go) correction: only the unit patch OR the model rocketry patch (thanks Mike)

5. Cadets wearing the region patch on the right shirt pocket of the BDU. And no, they weren't members of region staff.

6. Senior members wearing a blue 2-line nametag on their blues shirts. (That's right - the nametag that can be worn only with the white-shirt-blue-pants combination. They had removed their gray nametags and substituted this!) When corrected, they said "No, this is correct - this is the new nametag, it replaces the gray one." (smacks forehead)

7. Senior member wearing a BDU that was so worn out, it had large tears and frayed areas all along the bottom hem of the shirt

8. White-and-gray uniform worn with more than 2 badges (pilot wings, ground team badge, and a specialty badge... or two...)

9. Senior member wearing white-and-gray uniform - with the BLACK blazer nametag. (Let's see, that was phased out in, what, 1999?)

and my favorite, seen year after year:

10. the National Cadet Special Activity ribbon worn with triangular clasps denoting multiple activities. I don't know why this ribbon takes stars instead of clasps (probably a misprint in some long-lost edition of the 39-3 that just keeps getting repeated) but it does say stars, not clasps...

[MIKE]

4. Cadets (and some seniors) wearing activity badges (National Blue Beret, National Flight Academy, etc.) on the right shirt pocket of the BDU  (where only one patch - the member's unit patch - can go)

Point of order:  The Model Rocketry patch is also worn on the right shirt pocket, and is often mistakenly worn on left shirt pocket.

12 Model Rocketry Patch embroidered centered below the pocket flap on the right breast pocket of the BDU or field uniform shirt or BDU or dark blue field jacket.

[mdickinson]

The Model Rocketry patch is also worn on the right shirt pocket, and is often mistakenly worn on left shirt pocket.

Cool. I just learned something, thanks.

But nothing can go there other than the unit patch or the model rocketry patch, right?

(envisioning someone wearing both - one sewn on top of the other...)

[MIKE]

BSA Explorer Scout patch is another, but only for dual chartered units.

[Fifinella]

According to some people I know, the GT badge with a star means GTL. They also say that the GT badge with the star and olive branches means GBD. Now I know this isn't true. That only shows how many AF missions one has been on. So why is it that when Wing ES staff is aware that a cadet is wearing this badge, nothing is done? That just interests me.

I don't understand your question.

It IS true that the star is for GTL, and the star+wreath is for GDB.

A cadet CAN wear the GTL badge if he has met the standards and is 18 years old.

OK, Gurus, does a cadet have to be 18 for GT Badge?  I can't find an age requirement in 60-3.
(Kach, understand you wrote GTL...)

[SJFedor]

According to some people I know, the GT badge with a star means GTL. They also say that the GT badge with the star and olive branches means GBD. Now I know this isn't true. That only shows how many AF missions one has been on. So why is it that when Wing ES staff is aware that a cadet is wearing this badge, nothing is done? That just interests me.

No. Wrong. Has nothing to do with amount of missions, only qualifications and/or schooling. See below.

There are two ways to get the Basic Ground Team Badge (standard badge) and the Senior Ground Team Badge (badge w/ star)

4. Requirements for Award of the Ground Team Badges:
a. Basic Ground Team Badge:
1) Be qualified as a CAP ground team member in accordance with the CAP 60-series regulations or
2) Graduate from the CAP National Ground Search and Rescue School Basic Course or equivalent program as determined by NHQ CAP/DO and certified by the school/activity director. Each wing and region is encouraged to host ground team schools with the intent of certifying their members. All schools must ensure trainees meet the current regulatory requirements for qualification in the specialty before the rating is awarded.
b. Senior Ground Team Badge:
1) Be qualified as a CAP ground team leader in accordance with the CAP 60-series regulations or
2) Graduate from the CAP National Ground Search And Rescue School Advanced Course or equivalent program as determined by NHQ CAP/DO and certified by the school/activity director. Each wing and region is encouraged to host ground team schools with the intent of certifying their members. All schools must ensure trainees meet the current regulatory requirements for qualification in the specialty before the rating is awarded.

So, someone who graduates from, lets say, NESA basic, whether or not they completed GTM3 (which they do anyway), would be entitled to wear the basic badge. Same cadet who goes to session 2 NESA Advanced, regardless of age, if they graduate the NESA Advanced, they get the badge w/ the star. This is why you'll see some younger high speeds with the Senior Ground Team Badge (referred to as the GTL badge), and as long as they've completed an equivilant advanced course, they're legit.

Those who want the badge w/ the star and wreath, however, must be GBDs.

[JohnKachenmeister]

According to some people I know, the GT badge with a star means GTL. They also say that the GT badge with the star and olive branches means GBD. Now I know this isn't true. That only shows how many AF missions one has been on. So why is it that when Wing ES staff is aware that a cadet is wearing this badge, nothing is done? That just interests me.

I don't understand your question.

It IS true that the star is for GTL, and the star+wreath is for GDB.

A cadet CAN wear the GTL badge if he has met the standards and is 18 years old.

OK, Gurus, does a cadet have to be 18 for GT Badge?  I can't find an age requirement in 60-3.
(Kach, understand you wrote GTL...)

Negative.

Cadets under 18 can earn and wear the GT badge.  Achievement of age 18 is required for the GTL badge.

FEMA, however, requires that all support personnel be 18 orolder, which is only ONE of the many reasons why we should be under the Air National Guard.

[Matt]

10) Cadet wearing, CP badge, ES Badge, Comm Badge, Marksmanship Badge, GT w/ wreath, Solo Wings, and leadership ribbon...

We'll go through these one at a time.

Obviously the CP badge and the leadership ribbon cannot be awarded to cadets (even though theoretically they've completed lvl 1 with Mitchell and CPPT, but that's another story).

Marksmanship badge: If it is the NRA badge, it must be of the old curriculum, the newer curriculum has changed and technically disqualifies cadets from wearing it because it is for a different program, if I am to understand it correctly.

As for an ES Badge, cadets can earn the BASIC ES Badge (just not senior or master).

Communications badge: Cadets are authorized to EARN ALL Ratings in Communications.  Most I've ever seen is a senior-rated cadet, but they are eligible for basic, senior and master.

A master-GT rated cadet, yup seen a couple.  They can earn it.

Solo-wings, they're no different than pilot wings, only they're for soloing, again, there is no qualm there.


So how is that completely SNAFU?

[SDF_Specialist]

Well my issue is why is that they part of CAP that has uniform infractions are are never called on it when it is noticed by someone who is knowledgeable? Why are those who point things out quietly looked at as a "narc"? With the way some things are, I wonder if I could get away with wearing the master MP badge? No, I'm not a pilot. Just blowing off some steam.

Ryan:

OK, are you saying that a cadet was seen wearing a GT badge that he was not authorized to wear, and that he was not corrected by an officer who knew that he was not entitled to wear it?  I'm still not sure what your comment is about.

Close. The cadet is wearing a GTL badge. It was pointed out by a DCC of Cadets that he isn't suppose to be wearing it until 18. I believe he is 16.

[jimmydeanno]

10) Cadet wearing, CP badge, ES Badge, Comm Badge, Marksmanship Badge, GT w/ wreath, Solo Wings, and leadership ribbon...

We'll go through these one at a time.

Obviously the CP badge and the leadership ribbon cannot be awarded to cadets (even though theoretically they've completed lvl 1 with Mitchell and CPPT, but that's another story).

Marksmanship badge: If it is the NRA badge, it must be of the old curriculum, the newer curriculum has changed and technically disqualifies cadets from wearing it because it is for a different program, if I am to understand it correctly.

As for an ES Badge, cadets can earn the BASIC ES Badge (just not senior or master).

Communications badge: Cadets are authorized to EARN ALL Ratings in Communications.  Most I've ever seen is a senior-rated cadet, but they are eligible for basic, senior and master.

A master-GT rated cadet, yup seen a couple.  They can earn it.

Solo-wings, they're no different than pilot wings, only they're for soloing, again, there is no qualm there.


So how is that completely SNAFU?

Because they were all being worn at the same time...maximum of four devices worn on blues...

[Matt]

10) Cadet wearing, CP badge, ES Badge, Comm Badge, Marksmanship Badge, GT w/ wreath, Solo Wings, and leadership ribbon...

We'll go through these one at a time.

Obviously the CP badge and the leadership ribbon cannot be awarded to cadets (even though theoretically they've completed lvl 1 with Mitchell and CPPT, but that's another story).

Marksmanship badge: If it is the NRA badge, it must be of the old curriculum, the newer curriculum has changed and technically disqualifies cadets from wearing it because it is for a different program, if I am to understand it correctly.

As for an ES Badge, cadets can earn the BASIC ES Badge (just not senior or master).

Communications badge: Cadets are authorized to EARN ALL Ratings in Communications.  Most I've ever seen is a senior-rated cadet, but they are eligible for basic, senior and master.

A master-GT rated cadet, yup seen a couple.  They can earn it.

Solo-wings, they're no different than pilot wings, only they're for soloing, again, there is no qualm there.


So how is that completely SNAFU?

Because they were all being worn at the same time...maximum of four devices worn on blues...

Tusche.  My only other question is, when?  Was it when one could wear five devices (one on each pocket, one above the name plate, two above the ribbons), previous?

[Hawk200]

Tusche.  My only other question is, when?  Was it when one could wear five devices (one on each pocket, one above the name plate, two above the ribbons), previous?

The four badge (not device) limit has been around for awhile. Any member joining in the last few years has fallen under that limitation. It's not something that was limited with just the latest release of 39-1.

And even if five were permitted, you're still missing it:
1. CP badge
2. ES Badge
3. Comm Badge
4. Marksmanship Badge
5. GT w/ wreath
6. Solo Wings

See it?

Just of curiousity, was it "Touche" that you meant to say? Because "Tusche" is a different term from a completely different language with a rather different meaning.

[Eclipse]

8. White-and-gray uniform worn with more than 2 badges (pilot wings, ground team badge, and a specialty badge... or two...)

You mean specialty like ES or CP?  That's legal, isn't it? 

The white's are configed the same as the blues with the exception of the prohibition of military ribbons.

[Capt M. Sherrod]

For the most part, except a cadet shouldn't be wearing the CP specialty badge.

[Matt]

Tusche.  My only other question is, when?  Was it when one could wear five devices (one on each pocket, one above the name plate, two above the ribbons), previous?

The four badge (not device) limit has been around for awhile. Any member joining in the last few years has fallen under that limitation. It's not something that was limited with just the latest release of 39-1.

And even if five were permitted, you're still missing it:
1. CP badge
2. ES Badge
3. Comm Badge
4. Marksmanship Badge
5. GT w/ wreath
6. Solo Wings

See it?

Just of curiousity, was it "Touche" that you meant to say? Because "Tusche" is a different term from a completely different language with a rather different meaning.

I'm seeing it, and yes, I was meaning Touche... not another word for rear-end.

Also, I do not believe that the marksmanship badge would fall into that of the specialties badges.  Especially since it specifically does not hold the same placement (page 108, item 11) as that of the standard CAP badges.

However, minus the CP badge (and respectively the leadership ribbon), as my point stands, there should be no problem...

[mdickinson]

8. White-and-gray uniform worn with more than 2 badges (pilot wings, ground team badge, and a specialty badge... or two...)

You mean specialty like ES or CP?  That's legal, isn't it? 

The white's are configed the same as the blues with the exception of the prohibition of military ribbons.

Not so... read CAPM 39-1 (table 6-3 on page 110). It says
"The CAP aviation badge and one additional CAP badge for a maximum of two badges, may be worn."

It's kind of vague but I think it means that if you wear wings, you can wear two badges; if you don't wear wings, then only one (ground team badge, CAP unit commander badge, chaplain, legal, or a specialty like AE, CP, ES, Comms) can be worn.

[Matt]

8. White-and-gray uniform worn with more than 2 badges (pilot wings, ground team badge, and a specialty badge... or two...)

You mean specialty like ES or CP?  That's legal, isn't it? 

The white's are configed the same as the blues with the exception of the prohibition of military ribbons.

Not so... read CAPM 39-1 (table 6-3 on page 110). It says
"The CAP aviation badge and one additional CAP badge for a maximum of two badges, may be worn."

It's kind of vague but I think it means that if you wear wings, you can wear two badges; if you don't wear wings, then only one (ground team badge, CAP unit commander badge, chaplain, legal, or a specialty like AE, CP, ES, Comms) can be worn.

Because I don't have the reg (I deleted it again [work comp...]) I can't give the page, however, in Chapter two under the male service dress(es) it states where specialty badges are worn, and under the SM version it states a limit of four, there is no limit spec'd under Cadets (just one avi and one spec bdg above the ribbons).

[Hawk200]

I'm seeing it, and yes, I was meaning Touche... not another word for rear-end.

Also, I do not believe that the marksmanship badge would fall into that of the specialties badges.  Especially since it specifically does not hold the same placement (page 108, item 11) as that of the standard CAP badges.

However, minus the CP badge (and respectively the leadership ribbon), as my point stands, there should be no problem...

Actually, the word "tusche" is a German word for some kind of ink. Don't know the full etymology of the word, but here's a link if you really want to look into it:

http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tusche

Didn't know you knew German, did you?

Anyway, looking at the pages for each of the blue shirts it could be construed that up to five badges are actually authorized. However, going into chapter six (Badges and Devices) there is this statement:

"A maximum of four badges/devices may be worn on the AF-style uniforms."

The next paragraph down says this:

"The maximum of four earned badges is authorized for wear on all blue service uniforms."

Now it does not state cadet or senior, so it would apply to all personnel. Granted, the CMP badges are of a different nature, but they are still badges.

I must admit, originally I had issues with this stipulation. However, I came to realize that there has to be a line drawn somewhere, or else it tends to be a little too much.

You could have eight badges(hypothetically), but you can only wear any four of them on a single uniform. Some people think that means you can only wear certain ones, and you can never wear the others. The reg does not state that, only that four may be worn. Which means you could wear a service dress coat with four, and on the shirt beneath have four completely different badges on it.

I'll probably never have that many, but it's nice to know I (and others for that matter) have the option.

[CadetProgramGuy]

8. White-and-gray uniform worn with more than 2 badges (pilot wings, ground team badge, and a specialty badge... or two...)

You mean specialty like ES or CP?  That's legal, isn't it? 

The white's are configed the same as the blues with the exception of the prohibition of military ribbons.

Ribbons are not prohibited on the whites, however it does look very tacky.

[Eclipse]

8. White-and-gray uniform worn with more than 2 badges (pilot wings, ground team badge, and a specialty badge... or two...)

You mean specialty like ES or CP?  That's legal, isn't it? 

The white's are configed the same as the blues with the exception of the prohibition of military ribbons.

Ribbons are not prohibited on the whites, however it does look very tacky.

I think there's a lot of people who would disagree, myself included - especially for those who only have that uniform to wear.

[Eclipse]

8. White-and-gray uniform worn with more than 2 badges (pilot wings, ground team badge, and a specialty badge... or two...)

You mean specialty like ES or CP?  That's legal, isn't it? 

The white's are configed the same as the blues with the exception of the prohibition of military ribbons.

Not so... read CAPM 39-1 (table 6-3 on page 110). It says
"The CAP aviation badge and one additional CAP badge for a maximum of two badges, may be worn."

It's kind of vague but I think it means that if you wear wings, you can wear two badges; if you don't wear wings, then only one (ground team badge, CAP unit commander badge, chaplain, legal, or a specialty like AE, CP, ES, Comms) can be worn.

That only applies >above< the ribbons.

You can still wear a specialty on each pocket, and the Command badge doesn't count.

[dhon27]

8. White-and-gray uniform worn with more than 2 badges (pilot wings, ground team badge, and a specialty badge... or two...)

You mean specialty like ES or CP?  That's legal, isn't it? 

The white's are configed the same as the blues with the exception of the prohibition of military ribbons.

Not so... read CAPM 39-1 (table 6-3 on page 110). It says
"The CAP aviation badge and one additional CAP badge for a maximum of two badges, may be worn."

It's kind of vague but I think it means that if you wear wings, you can wear two badges; if you don't wear wings, then only one (ground team badge, CAP unit commander badge, chaplain, legal, or a specialty like AE, CP, ES, Comms) can be worn.

That only applies >above< the ribbons.

You can still wear a specialty on each pocket, and the Command badge doesn't count.

Except that at the bottom of Table 6-3, it states that "NOTE: The CAP aviation badge and one additional CAP badge for a maximum of two badges, may be worn."  This doesn't appear to differentiate between badges above the ribbons or below.  It seems to limit the total number of badges worn to two.

[Hawk200]

Seems like too many inconsistencies between the uniform shirts. Seems like the easy thing to do is mirror from one to other. The only difference should be whether the shirt is white or blue. There is the restriction of military ribbons/badges on the white shirt, it should stay in place, but other than that, why should they be different?

On the white shirt, I think the stipulation of only two badges when one is aviation is the same flawed principle that McPeak had when he released his original service dress idea. It discriminated against non-aircrew, and gave the impression that non-aircrew were inferior. It got changed, CAP should learn the same lesson.

[jb512]

Well my issue is why is that they part of CAP that has uniform infractions are are never called on it when it is noticed by someone who is knowledgeable? Why are those who point things out quietly looked at as a "narc"? With the way some things are, I wonder if I could get away with wearing the master MP badge? No, I'm not a pilot. Just blowing off some steam.

I don't see how that would make one a "narc".  The uniform reflects on all of us and we should make a habit of making those corrections.

[mdickinson]

The white's [sic] are configed the same as the blues with the exception of the prohibition of military ribbons.

Ribbons are not prohibited on the whites, however it does look very tacky.

He didn't say ribbons are prohibited; he said military ribbons are prohibited. He is correct; you can wear your CAP ribbons on your whites, but not any ribbons awarded by any other service.

[JC004]

The white's [sic] are configed the same as the blues with the exception of the prohibition of military ribbons.

Ribbons are not prohibited on the whites, however it does look very tacky.

He didn't say ribbons are prohibited; he said military ribbons are prohibited. He is correct; you can wear your CAP ribbons on your whites, but not any ribbons awarded by any other service.

Unless said service allows its ribbons worn on civilian clothing.  Wasn't that a whole thing with the national board?

[Eclipse]

I (sit) corrected on the badges deal.

Page 105 is clear, as I indicated in a PM, I have some clarification memos to write...

[SJFedor]

Close. The cadet is wearing a GTL badge. It was pointed out by a DCC of Cadets that he isn't suppose to be wearing it until 18. I believe he is 16.

Please see my post on page 2, it cites the regulation, or just read CAPR 35-6. Cadets under 18 MAY wear the Senior GT Badge (GTL Badge if you must) as long as they are either A) a GTL (which you can't be under 18), or B) a graduate from a National Ground Search and Rescue equivilant (as certified by CAP/DO) ADVANCED GSAR school (NESA Advanced, for example).

35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges , they wrote an entire book just on the subject that is being debated!

[Hawk200]

Unless said service allows its ribbons worn on civilian clothing.  Wasn't that a whole thing with the national board?

That only applies to the TPU, not the white/grey combo. 39-1 specifically states that military decs are not worn on the white/greys.

[JC004]

Unless said service allows its ribbons worn on civilian clothing.  Wasn't that a whole thing with the national board?

That only applies to the TPU, not the white/grey combo. 39-1 specifically states that military decs are not worn on the white/greys.

I tried to find the stuff related to it, but I couldn't find it.  Anybody got a link? 

[Hawk200]

Unless said service allows its ribbons worn on civilian clothing.  Wasn't that a whole thing with the national board?

That only applies to the TPU, not the white/grey combo. 39-1 specifically states that military decs are not worn on the white/greys.

I tried to find the stuff related to it, but I couldn't find it.  Anybody got a link? 

I looked over the policy letters for the Corporate Service Dress, and at present there is nothing about permitting wear of military decorations. It may have been discussed, but at this moment, nothing has been included permitting it in the actual policy letters.

The aviator shirt reference states specifically "No military ribbons may be worn." That's Figure 4-2, Line 10.

I'm not sure which reference you were looking for, so I included both of those. Hope that helps.

[JC004]

Unless said service allows its ribbons worn on civilian clothing.  Wasn't that a whole thing with the national board?

That only applies to the TPU, not the white/grey combo. 39-1 specifically states that military decs are not worn on the white/greys.

I tried to find the stuff related to it, but I couldn't find it.  Anybody got a link? 

I looked over the policy letters for the Corporate Service Dress, and at present there is nothing about permitting wear of military decorations. It may have been discussed, but at this moment, nothing has been included permitting it in the actual policy letters.

The aviator shirt reference states specifically "No military ribbons may be worn." That's Figure 4-2, Line 10.

I'm not sure which reference you were looking for, so I included both of those. Hope that helps.

Yea...the TPU stuff.  I'm guessing it was a NEC/NB thing, IIRC.  No policy letter yet, just as with the blue beret and Hawk bling.

[MIKE]

IIRC we had the discussion on the Portal... I seem to remember posting cites from the various uniform regs/manuals/instructions.  IIRC most, if not all basically said no ribbons on "civilian clothing."  IIRC most authorize the lapel pins and the mini-medals to be worn on the appropriate civilian attire.

[SAR-EMT1]

I dont want to make myself look like an idiot, but I am one who knowingly wears his uniform a tad out of reg.

Blues: I still fir into my blues shirts from cadet days, I have an IL Wing patch sewn on. I will wear in as is until the uniform no longer fits or becomes unservicable. BECAUSE to remove the Wing patch MAKES the shirt unservicable due to thread holes and the waxy material from the patch backing. And I am unwilling to spend the money to repalce it until its due.

BDUS, I still have the Wing Patch for the same reason given above.
I do not currently have LT insignia on either my BDU cover or blouse because when I switch to CAPT this fall It would screw the uniform. I will most likely sew on the CAPT bars this fall safe in the knowledge that my uniform is safe from interuption for at least 3 years.


I say this to ask opinions and to find out if there is a "safe" way to remove a wing patch without destroying the shirt.

[mdickinson]

I still fir (sic) into my blues shirts from cadet days, I have an IL Wing patch sewn on. I will wear in (sic) as is until the uniform no longer fits or becomes unservicable (sic).

Wow, you are really behind the times. It was decreed over a year ago that "these patches must be removed from blue AF-style garments by 1 August 2006" (CAP/CC change letter, 15 Mar 06) and you're thinking about waiting until "this fall" to comply? You, my friend, are part of CAP's uniform problem. (How has your commander responded to your decision to miswear the uniform for more than a year?)

BECAUSE to remove the Wing patch MAKES the shirt unservicable (sic) due to thread holes and the waxy material from the patch backing. And I am unwilling to spend the money to repalce (sic) it until its (sic) due.

I seem to remember when the policy letter came out requiring us to remove our wing patches, there was some text included that specifically addressed this point, saying that no one would be penalized for having sewing-holes or glue-spots on the shoulder of their blues shirts. I can't find the reference now...anyone else remember reading that?

BDUS, I still have the Wing Patch for the same reason given above.

But the wing patch stays on the BDU. It just became optional, that's all. The change letter referenced above said: "Wing/Region/National patches are now optional on BDUs, flight suits, CAP field and utility uniforms." You should probably read the change letter before deciding you are going to ignore it...

I do not currently have LT insignia on either my BDU cover or blouse because when I switch to CAPT (sic) this fall It would screw the uniform.

I fail to understand how sewing an embroidered lieutenant bar onto your BDU cap and collars (as has been required for some time now) would "screw" the uniform when you "switch" to Captain.

The tool you need is called a seam ripper - pick one up at Wal-Mart for 99 cents, and you'll be all ready to remove your single bar and replace it with a double bar. Your uniform will survive the change unscathed.

I say this to ask opinions and to find out if there is a "safe" way to remove a wing patch without destroying the shirt.

Just use a seam ripper to cut the thread that is holding the patch to the shirt. Then peel it off. Don't worry about a little melted plastic left behind.

I dont (sic) want to make myself look like an idiot

Some might say that you've done just that - by advertising that you've been wearing your uniform wrong for a year, and adding that you intend to keep doing so for several more months. You're effectively saying "I'll start wearing the uniform correctly once you promote me to Captain."    Seeing how proper uniform wear is one of the criteria for promotion, you might be shooting yourself in the foot.

Another way that one can look like an idiot is by jamming a ton of spelling mistakes and run-on sentences into a single post. But at least that's not contrary to 39-1

[Eclipse]

I dont want to make myself look like an idiot, but I am one who knowingly wears his uniform a tad out of reg.

Blues: I still fir into my blues shirts from cadet days, I have an IL Wing patch sewn on. I will wear in as is until the uniform no longer fits or becomes unservicable. BECAUSE to remove the Wing patch MAKES the shirt unservicable due to thread holes and the waxy material from the patch backing. And I am unwilling to spend the money to repalce it until its due.

BDUS, I still have the Wing Patch for the same reason given above.
I do not currently have LT insignia on either my BDU cover or blouse because when I switch to CAPT this fall It would screw the uniform. I will most likely sew on the CAPT bars this fall safe in the knowledge that my uniform is safe from interruption for at least 3 years.


I say this to ask opinions and to find out if there is a "safe" way to remove a wing patch without destroying the shirt.

Sorry, man - you're being part of the problem...

We all have to suck it up and incur the PITA of the changes and the sometimes expense of new parts.
You're out of uniform and setting a terrible example.

Your unit CC is as well, by not addressing this directly.

[mdickinson]

What Eclipse said.

[TankerT]

What Eclipse said.

Ditto

[shorning]

What Eclipse said.

Ditto

[RogueLeader]

Oye Vey!!!

[jb512]

Count me in as agreeing too....  I've always found that a hot iron and a little starch will flatten out the material enough to get rid of most, if not all of the holes left from a patch.  Not always, but most of the time...

And, I believe that the size of the Capt insignia will more than cover the holes left from an old Lt patch.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Add me to the chorus.  Lose the stupid wing patch.  You are too young to claim senility.

[SAR-EMT1]

I have bowed to pressure and removed the patch. However, sad as it was, the waxy crap has mutated the shirt material and as a result it had to be destroyed. I got a new shirt today.

But this whole excersize just proved my point. That the change should have included the ability to wear out what we had until no longer servicable OR the shirt required a change; ae- putting on new insignia. 

Was the Wing patch on the shirt? - YES
Did having a Wing patch on my shirt or not, have an effect on my bearing, positive image, or ability to do my job? - no
Did I keep the uniform as was, in order to keep the shirt from ruin? - YES
What happened when the Patch came off?  - The shirt was ruined.

[Hawk200]

I have bowed to pressure and removed the patch. However, sad as it was, the waxy crap has mutated the shirt material and as a result it had to be destroyed. I got a new shirt today.

But this whole excersize just proved my point. That the change should have included the ability to wear out what we had until no longer servicable OR the shirt required a change; ae- putting on new insignia. 

Was the Wing patch on the shirt? - YES
Did having a Wing patch on my shirt or not, have an effect on my bearing, positive image, or ability to do my job? - no
Did I keep the uniform as was, in order to keep the shirt from ruin? - YES
What happened when the Patch came off?  - The shirt was ruined.

Just an idea that works sometimes: Put a paper towel over the area with the adhesive on it, and apply an iron. Sometimes, it will draw out the adhesive, and the towel will absorb it. If you consider the shirt ruined, it won't hurt to try, you may recover the use of it.

[davedove]

But this whole excersize just proved my point. That the change should have included the ability to wear out what we had until no longer servicable OR the shirt required a change; ae- putting on new insignia. 

I don't disagree with this principle, but it's not foolproof.  There are a lot of members where the insignia doesn't change, and it takes years to wear out the shirt, especially if it's only worn occasionally.

For instance, what about the 1st Lt who just doesn't want to finish his Level II training?  He can stay in CAP indefinitely, still contributing, but will not advance to Captain, and thus not have a shirt change.

There has to be some sort of time limit.

[Hawk200]

I think the issue with removing wing patches and covering residue left behind could have been easily handled by a left handed flag. It would go right over, and probably cover any residue left behind.

[Pylon]

I think the issue with removing wing patches and covering residue left behind could have been easily handled by a left handed flag. It would go right over, and probably cover any residue left behind.

But not on blues shirts, where the residue, stitching holes, and other marks left behind would probably be more noticeable.

[mdickinson]

I have bowed to pressure and removed the patch. However, sad as it was, the waxy crap has mutated the shirt material and as a result it had to be destroyed. I got a new shirt today.

Hopefully you got yours from Old Lincoln County ( http://olcnet.com/index.htm#af1 ) - if so, you only paid $7.00 plus shipping.

At prices like that, it doesn't hurt so much when you have to replace a shirt... or outgrow a pair of pants...

[SAR-EMT1]

Unfortunately no, all my stuff came from the AF through the Scott AFB Uniform Shop or through my ROTC unit.

[Hawk200]

I think the issue with removing wing patches and covering residue left behind could have been easily handled by a left handed flag. It would go right over, and probably cover any residue left behind.

But not on blues shirts, where the residue, stitching holes, and other marks left behind would probably be more noticeable.

Point taken. But it never hurts to try the towel and iron. If it's trashed, you got nothing to lose.