A grade...finally...

[mjbernier]

It hasn't been officially "pinned on" me by my commander, but eServices was updated over the weekend to show my first promotion to 2d Lt.    Now the cadets in my squadron won't be so confused over what to call me (I believe they're supposed to use "Sir" or "Ma'am" when addressing a SM -- they've been calling me "Sir" but have a puzzled look on their faces when they do).

It seems strange that new Seniors start with "no grade" while new Cadets do have a grade. I heard one of our "old timers" mention that there used to be Warrant Officer grades? Were those used for new members "off the street" like me or just for retired military who joined CAP? Did they turn into the Flight Officer grades that are used now?

Mike

[SarDragon]

Cadets also start with no grade. They just get their first one quicker than  most new SMs.

WOs were a part of the progression a long time ago, but they went away when AF WOs went away. Anyone, 18 or older, could be a WO. There were also C/WOs that I will discuss later.

FO came about a bit later, and is reserved for18-20 yo SMs. It allows them to progress through the SM Professional Development program (PD), and use their TIG for promotion to appropriate SM officer grade at age 21.

C/WO was instituted in 1968, and the promoted grade for the Mitchell Award. This was changed to C/FO when the SM WOs went away. When the C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt grades were added, C/FO went away, too.

[Sapper168]

It hasn't been officially "pinned on" me by my commander, but eServices was updated over the weekend to show my first promotion to 2d Lt.    Now the cadets in my squadron won't be so confused over what to call me (I believe they're supposed to use "Sir" or "Ma'am" when addressing a SM -- they've been calling me "Sir" but have a puzzled look on their faces when they do).

It seems strange that new Seniors start with "no grade" while new Cadets do have a grade. I heard one of our "old timers" mention that there used to be Warrant Officer grades? Were those used for new members "off the street" like me or just for retired military who joined CAP? Did they turn into the Flight Officer grades that are used now?

Mike

The proper form of address would be Mr/Mrs (insert last name), but Sir/Maam or even Senior Member (insert last name) are acceptable. The cadets in my squad always called me Sir from day one. They were also instructed by the c/cc at the time to salute me even though i was without grade as an honor to my previous military experiences.  Is till to this day look around for the officer when being saluted.

[coudano]

Cadets also start with no grade. They just get their first one quicker than  most new SMs.

False.
Cadets start with the grade Cadet Airman Basic (C/AB)

It parallels the Air Force Enlisted Force Structure   Airman Basic (pay grade E1)


The Air Forcey term for someone new who is going to be an officer, but not yet commissioned (at OCS or AMS) would probably be "officer candidate" or short spoken "OC".  Heh, not bad.  I might start calling my smwog's that...   

That's not accounting for "cadets" at AFROTC or USAFA, of course.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I hate and loathe the term "Senior Member."

I would rather have something like "Officer Candidate," "Officer Cadet (Royal Australian Air Force)," "Instructor (USNSCC)," "Candidate Officer (South African Air Force)," "Student Officer (British Royal Air Force)" than "Senior Member" or "Senior Member Without Grade."

When I was one of those, at 27 years old in '93, being addressed as "Senior Member" made me feel more old and decrepit than I actually am now at 45.

[Woodsy]

I can't tell you how many times I've told a corporate-type non-CAP member I'm a Senior Member, and they all of a sudden get very impressed and ask how I got so high up at such a young age (I'm 26.)  In the corporate world, the word "member" is the new "partner."  "Senior Member" is comparable to job titles such as Managing Director.  I do not like the term for this reason.  SMWOG is even worse.  I'm all in favor of Officer Candidate, as it implies a training stage, and, after all, the purpose is to become an officer.  As for uniforms, insignia, etc., I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.  This also gives a new member time to save up for uniform purchases and spread the initial costs out over a longer period.  In my short time in, I've already seen a few potential members walk away simply because the start-up cost is too much. 

[RobertAmphibian]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.

I disagree. For any member, the first few months should include some training on proper uniform wear and customs and courtesies. A new member shouldn't feel obligated to buy all our uniforms right away, but they should definitely be encouraged to set the tone for the rest of their CAP experience. By the time they're six months or so into their membership, shouldn't they be focused on something other than learning how to wear the uniform?

[Eclipse]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months. 

Well, you can start with page eight (8) of 39-1, which requires that a member obtain either the blues or the whites.
Despite the common misunderstanding, the golf shirt is not the LCD uniform.  The MBU is, and considering that at it's most entry level, all that lot of new members have to buy is a nameplate, since they already own a white shirt, gray pants, and have no grade to display, cost should hardly be a factor..

New members quitting because of uniform costs are likely not getting the proper information, or are making decisions without good advice from their commanders.  In the past I've been an advocate of starting with the golf shirt, if for no other reason than most new members won't be active enough
in their first 6 months to require anything more - it's a month or two these days by the time you're really a member, rarely do the stars alighn to allow anything more than superficial ES or flight OPS as a new member, and there are simple realities of shipping / shopping, etc.  But the more CAP tries to raise the bar on expectations, the more I see how counterproductive allowing members to believe the golf shirt should be their default dress is.

[Rick-DEL]

How long does it normally take to hear back from NHQ about Special Promotions (IAW 35-5)? I am a former USAF Crew Chief with A&P experience. But, since the AF doesn't give civilian licenses, I had to seek a special ruling on what that USAF experience is equivalent to in FAA Land. I did find an article on the FAA site that shows my USAF AFSC with a 5 skill level is equivalent to an A&P, not just and A or P. So, we put in for a request to 1st Lt, figuring not to be greedy and seek Capt.

Does anybody know how long that process takes and if there is a POC down at MAFB that I can reach out to for a status?

Thanks,
Rick

[Eclipse]

"Normal" special appointments usually post in a day or two after being received, however I'd be willing to bet
you're going to need more than an FAA article to make this happen.

[coudano]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks, (and the white aviator) ever.

Unless/until they want/need a field uniform, or a flight suit.
meh.
every senior member in my squadron wears golf/aviator exclusively (except possibly in a SAR context you might see some BDU's and flight suits show up)


Our squadron actually has a stack of silk screened golf shirts lying around for loan to new senior members until they acquire their own stuff.  Sometimes they just purchase the loaner, and we use that money to replace the loaner.  That gets them (particularly pilots) eligible to go on a fam ride in the airplane, and maybe even get to work on their form 5 right away.

[Rick-DEL]

Eclipse, thanks for the response.

In addition to the FAA Regulation I submitted, I also submitted all of my USAF Crew Chief Technical School stuff, in addition to specialized aircraft training stuff, like ABDR. I would think that my USAF flightline experience and education would warrant something in return.

Does anybody have a POC at NHQ (in that dept.) that may be able to see where my request stands?

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, thanks for the response.

In addition to the FAA Regulation I submitted, I also submitted all of my USAF Crew Chief Technical School stuff, in addition to specialized aircraft training stuff, like ABDR. I would think that my USAF flightline experience and education would warrant something in return.

Does anybody have a POC at NHQ (in that dept.) that may be able to see where my request stands?

What grade did you make in the military, E-8 would qualify you for the same grade.

The challenge here is that the regs are fairly specific, and your relevant experience doesn't really translate into "mission skills" because we don't do our own maintenance.  This issue have been on the table for a long time - new members with strong military credentials who don't have the equivalent civilian license or rating.

It's not really much different than the pilot issue.  You could be a Thunderbird, but if you don't have a PPL, you can't fly CAP airplanes.

[Rick-DEL]

Yeah, it is pretty weird on how actually USAF experience is not weighed much in CAP, even though CAP is an Auxiliary. Oh well. I got out as  SSgt. I guess I will sit as SM for 6 months...arghhh.

[Eclipse]

How long has your Form 2 been floating around?

We also have to assume that the other stuff is done, Level 1, all Safety training, EO, current briefing, etc., and that your wing or region doesn't
have any supplements in place regarding higher HQ reviewing mission skills appointments.

[Rick-DEL]

A little over a month (maybe more).

All other training is done, I only need OBC and I am done everything required for 1 and 2. That includes the Yeager.

I just wish there was a POC I could reach out to get a feel for the status. That way I can put i to bed either way and fully get the unifroms in order. I bought three sets of rank (SM, 2nd Lt., and 1st Lt.) just in case I got approved for one other than SM. I have the SM rank on now, but was hoping to get that changed soo.

[coudano]

Yeah, it is pretty weird on how actually USAF experience is not weighed much in CAP, even though CAP is an Auxiliary. Oh well. I got out as  SSgt. I guess I will sit as SM for 6 months...arghhh.

I think you have a marginally possible case with the A&P thing, but yeah, you would need some sort of FAA ruling or reg (not just an article), showing your equivalency.  And then, nhq would need to be aware of that ruling.

Could you walk into any civilian aircraft mx shop and be hired, and immediately go to work in the same credential as a fully certified A&P?  I'm talking about actual 'permission' here, not just what you and your skills are capable of.  If the answer is yes, then imho you should be eligible for the  mission skills performance in CAP.  If the answer is no, then well, imho, you shouldn't.

Is your primary role in CAP going to be working mx anyway?



Bottom line, CAP and USAF are simply apples and oranges to each-other.
The things on your 623 and JQS simply are not common with the things on CAP's equivalent quals.
It's just like all those CCAF credits that don't transfer cleanly into a lot of colleges or universities.

I recently had to discuss with a member who thought they shouldn't have to /actually/ task off on ground team training, because they were in the air force for 16 years and could be an incident commander based on their job and experience.  Simply put, end of the day, if there's a crashed airplane with an ELT going off at 2am, can you go get it in a proficient and expeditious manner, and in a manner compliant with CAP specific rules and regs?  "absolutely".   Ok, so i've set an ELT on the property (like less than 5 acres) here's a DF and a compass let's see what you've got...   "blank stare."

Yeah, that's /exactly/ why you have to go from the starting block, by the numbers.  Even if you do have some skills in common, there are going to be gaps in policy procedure and training that you have to fill.  By the exact same token, I couldn't take my 20 years of CAP experience and go get advanced placement in the USAF.  They just don't equiv like that, at any level.


Aside that, the training and growth is probably the most valuable part of the CAP experience anyway.  Skipping that is cheating yourself out of the best parts of being in CAP in the first place, in my opinion.

[Rick-DEL]

Makes sense...thanks.

[Eclipse]

First - what Coudano said.  ^

A little over a month (maybe more).

A month is about right for a cycle on a denial, which will come back to your unit hard copy.  Bear in mind that in the last month
we have had national boards as well as a holiday, so everyone at NHQ is behind the curve, especially on something like this which
would require a hand-held conversation.  I'm not saying it was denied, only that a month is typical when a promotion is (denied).

You should start with your unit CC or PDO, and confirm it was actually sent, and how.  If it was sent via USPS, it may never have actually
arrived.  The preferred course would be to email a .pdf to the forms submission address.

If they confirm it went, one of them should contact NHQ member services and ask the questions.  Toll-free: (877) 227-9142.  I don't suppose
there's any real reason why you couldn't call yourself, though I don't know it they will answer this type of question directly to the member.

All other training is done, I only need OBC and I am done everything required for 1 and 2. That includes the Yeager.

You already have a technician rating in a Specialty?  That is required for level two as well, and those generally require
6+ months in a given staff job as well as additional training, testing, and service.

I have the SM rank on now, but was hoping to get that changed soo.

SM Rank?  You're talking about the CAP cutouts worn on the collar of the BDU's and blues? Right?  (We're all hoping...)

[Rick-DEL]

Yes, SM (Senior Member) utilizing the CAP cutouts 

No, I do not have a rating yet, as I have not hit the 6 months. I am aware that is required for the Tecnician rating, I just got everything knocked out while I had the free time needed.

Thanks for all of the info guys.

If I hear word in the next 4 months, I'll let ya know...

Rick

[Hawk200]

Yeah, it is pretty weird on how actually USAF experience is not weighed much in CAP, even though CAP is an Auxiliary. Oh well. I got out as  SSgt. I guess I will sit as SM for 6 months...arghhh.

Wear your stripes until you get 2LT. I'm sure you've got a shirt or two left; a grey nametag and CAP cutouts is all you need. Even if you want to go with the finery, you'll only need a rack for one more ribbon.

Those grades aren't recorded at National, your CO can do that in house. I've been in a few units that used such a practice, and did it that way in the unit I commanded.

[Eclipse]

Those grades aren't recorded at National, your CO can do that in house. I've been in a few units that used such a practice, and did it that way in the unit I commanded.

NCO grades are now tracked in eServices and require the same appointment paperwork as any other grade, so a F2 and a DD214, ID card, etc.

With an open F2 in the system already, he might well wind up promoted to 1st Lt., then re-promoted to Staff Sergeant.  I would hold off until the first one
comes back (at least).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks, (and the white aviator) ever.

I hope you are not saying there is no reason for a member to ever wear the USAF type uniform.

I was in a flying club senior squadron that was like that.  Pecking order was pilots=Deity and everyone else=hewers-of-wood-drawers-of-water, and uniforms were strictly optional unless it was a polo or a flight suit (often without insignia).

That was a very sharp contrast to my first unit, where I served for over six years until having to move...from the getgo it was USAF-type uniform/BDU's only.  I never saw a grey/white until I went to my first wing activity, and this was back when the grey/white consisted of no ribbons, no rank slides and the same "blazer" nameplate.

The first night I showed up at the flying club senior squadron, I was in my blues, clean and pressed (trying to make a good impression...) and some looked at me like I was out of my mind...I remember being asked, "why do you bother with all that?"

[coudano]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks, (and the white aviator) ever.

I hope you are not saying there is no reason for a member to ever wear the USAF type uniform.

I was in a flying club senior squadron that was like that.  Pecking order was pilots=Deity and everyone else=hewers-of-wood-drawers-of-water, and uniforms were strictly optional unless it was a polo or a flight suit (often without insignia).

That was a very sharp contrast to my first unit, where I served for over six years until having to move...from the getgo it was USAF-type uniform/BDU's only.  I never saw a grey/white until I went to my first wing activity, and this was back when the grey/white consisted of no ribbons, no rank slides and the same "blazer" nameplate.

The first night I showed up at the flying club senior squadron, I was in my blues, clean and pressed (trying to make a good impression...) and some looked at me like I was out of my mind...I remember being asked, "why do you bother with all that?"

That's one implementation of the corporate only uniform, and yes i've seen it too.

However, it's possible for all the adults in a unit (even a composite squadron with a /healthy/ cadet program) to go corp only for everyone without that attitude.  We do it every Tuesday night.  Come by sometime and ask my cadets if they think me or any of my CP staff members are unprofessional, too lax, or lacking in respect or authority as adults and mentors because we don't wear blues or bdu's.

OTOH we ALL (senior members) wear the SAME UNIform (with the exception of the occasional, ok regular, guy or two who doink the schedule and wear aviator on golf shirt nite or vice verse).  It looks sharp, and it feels cohesive.  No second class citizens by dress code.  Good stuff maynard.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No implication of unprofessionalism on the part of you or your squadron was intended.  My squadron CC wears the G/W.

My question was: do you believe that CAP officers should not wear the USAF-type uniform, and if so, why?  There are certain posters here on CT who vociferously advocate such a thing, and I've ran into a few in person.  For some reason, they are very zealous for the colour grey...I just don't get it.

Personally, I would not feel comfortable in a unit that mandated corporate-only (not that I'm saying yours does) wear.

However, it is a good thing that you avoid the "second class citizens by dress code."

In my unit I'd say it's about 75% in favour of blues, but for those who cannot/choose not to, it's not even a blip on the radar screen.

[jacob]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.

One reason I agree with this is the use of CAP cutouts to signify SMWOG.

• On the white shirts, the cutouts put holes in the collars that aren't covered by anything else.  Now, if SMWOGs wore the grey shoulder sleeves with just the embroidered "CAP" (which I've seen many incorrectly do), that problem would go away.
• On BDU blouses, the embroidered "CAP" on blue cloth is oriented 180 degrees off from the 2d Lt bar that will soon fill that spot.  On low-quality BDUs, that leaves part of the square outline from the stitching still visible.  Leaving grade off the BDU collars for SMWOGs would fix this problem - and maybe discourage those seniors who leave grade off the BDUs they wear on ES missions (since it doesn't matter anyway - seen that a couple of times) from doing so.

[coudano]

do you believe that CAP officers should not wear the USAF-type uniform

Yes.

and if so, why?

My previous post was pretty much about that.

There are certain posters here on CT who vociferously advocate such a thing, and I've ran into a few in person.  For some reason, they are very zealous for the colour grey...I just don't get it.

I'm not particularly zealous for the color grey, however I think that the current aviator and golf shirt combos, as they stand, look good individually and as a group, and work fine.  I don't think you can change them much and have those changes be improvements.  And I haven't seen a complete alternative suggestion yet that is "better".

I think they should chill on the pants, just mandate any grey full length pants (cargo, ems, tactical being fine, not just 'slacks' or 'old man pants') that match the shade of the nameplate/epaulets, and go on with life.

I /would/ like to see a more reasonable coat to put over the aviator with a uniform tie, on which we can wear rank and cap-only ribbons awards and decs.

Personally, I would not feel comfortable in a unit that mandated corporate-only (not that I'm saying yours does) wear.

It is not 'officially' mandated, like a written OI or something.
But it is /certainly/ the culture.  If you showed up to my squadron wearing blues or bdu's as a senior member you would stick out like a sore thumb.

However, it is a good thing that you avoid the "second class citizens by dress code."

Yes, yes it is.

In my unit I'd say it's about 75% in favour of blues, but for those who cannot/choose not to, it's not even a blip on the radar screen.

It might be a blip that you just aren't aware of.
Many people who can't, or can't practically wear the USAF style uniform silently harbor resentment about it.
I /can/ wear the USAF style uniform (both weight and grooming), and choose not to anyway.
So can and do about 30% of the officers in my unit.
The other 70% can't, and don't need to feel bad for it, nor the temptation to do it wrong.

I would go so far as to say that MOST CAP senior members can NOT (or are effectively not willing to -shave-) wear the USAF style uniform properly on account of either weight or grooming (although many people who bust weight and grooming basically willfully violate the regs and wear them anyway).  Historically our command structure has proven itself repeatedly as unwilling and unable to enforce the rules, so people basically get away with murder.

We have historically and repeatedly shown that we collectively can't wear the USAF uniform right.
So I say we quit wasting so much strife on it, and focus on our missions, which can be accomplished regardless of clothing and jewlrey.  The best way to do that is to eliminate clothing and jewlrey as an item for discussion as much as possible.  And the best way to do that is to reduce and eliminate the swath of choices and possible points of failure in the system.

The corporates are the uniform that the (super) majority of CAP senior members SHOULD be in.
The corporates are the uniform that 100% of CAP senior members CAN be in.
That's a pretty clear momentum vector right there, as far as i'm concerned.

[Eclipse]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.

One reason I agree with this is the use of CAP cutouts to signify SMWOG.

• On the white shirts, the cutouts put holes in the collars that aren't covered by anything else.  Now, if SMWOGs wore the grey shoulder sleeves with just the embroidered "CAP" (which I've seen many incorrectly do), that problem would go away.

I used to say the same thing, except that the blue shirts are self-healing.

CAP cutouts are not worn on the collar of the white aviator shirt.

[jacob]

CAP cutouts are not worn on the collar of the white aviator shirt.

Interesting - I just checked 39-1, since the white shirt is worn pretty much like the blue one except for military ribbons.  That seems to be another exception!  I wonder if that was intentional, or an oversight.

[Eclipse]

My guess is intentional as there is no reason to worry about anyone confusing the whites with a USAF uniform, which is probably the
only reason seniors have to wear the cutouts until they make grade.

[mjbernier]

Yes, SM (Senior Member) utilizing the CAP cutouts 

No, I do not have a rating yet, as I have not hit the 6 months. I am aware that is required for the Tecnician rating, I just got everything knocked out while I had the free time needed.

Thanks for all of the info guys.

If I hear word in the next 4 months, I'll let ya know...

Rick

Rick, you sound like me - I had Level 1 done in my first month, and just hit my 6 months last week. I also have almost all of Level 2 finished - SLS & OBC are done, and another month or so on staff to get my ITO Technician rating. I picked up my Yeager along the way as well. Have you done any work yet on Emergency Services?

On the uniform question, my CC recommended I start with the white aviator shirt/gray slacks uniform for more formal wear (like our monthly promotions night) and the golf shirt for all of our other meetings/activities. It made sense to me because other than the shirt the uniforms are identical, keeping my initial costs down (which was very welcome at the time... our first-year dues aren't exactly cheap). I'll probably add BDUs to the collection as the weather gets a little cooler, and eventually blues as well (I have a few pounds to work off first ).

Mike

[Woodsy]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks, (and the white aviator) ever.

I hope you are not saying there is no reason for a member to ever wear the USAF type uniform.

I personally see a lot of value in the AF uniform.

In my original post where I said I don't see a need for it in the first 6 months, it's based on need.  I watched myself and several other members join around the same time, and none of us had a reason to wear anything other than the polo/gray's our first 6 months.  We bought them, but never wore them. So, based on personal experience, if a new member is worried about the start up costs, I would have no problem telling them to get the polo and buy the other stuff later.  Now, if a need for it arises, such as a training class with a required uniform, or state conference (which I don't know of any brand new members that go to these events) then cross that bridge when you get there.  Classes like that aren't spur of the moment, and there's plenty of time to order and get all the uniform items before hand. 

[Sapper168]

Now see since i initially joined CAP to specifically do ground team work, my first uniform was the BDU.  That was followed several months later with the White/grey and polo shirt.  Since i started working with the cadets in my unit, i still wear BDU's a majority of the time as i try to stay in line with the cadets to foster uniformity
.

[Hawk200]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.

One reason I agree with this is the use of CAP cutouts to signify SMWOG.

• On the white shirts, the cutouts put holes in the collars that aren't covered by anything else.  Now, if SMWOGs wore the grey shoulder sleeves with just the embroidered "CAP" (which I've seen many incorrectly do), that problem would go away.
• On BDU blouses, the embroidered "CAP" on blue cloth is oriented 180 degrees off from the 2d Lt bar that will soon fill that spot.  On low-quality BDUs, that leaves part of the square outline from the stitching still visible.  Leaving grade off the BDU collars for SMWOGs would fix this problem - and maybe discourage those seniors who leave grade off the BDUs they wear on ES missions (since it doesn't matter anyway - seen that a couple of times) from doing so.

Personally, I think the cutouts for SMWOG's is pointless now. Back when we had blue nametags it would work, but if you run into someone with a grey nametag on a blue uniform, you'd be hardpressed to convince me that you confused them for an Air Force member. I'd simply consider the person that did as uninformed at best, and an idiot at worst (a lot would depend on how they comport themselves). Grey nametag on a blue uniform with a hat device that's way too big for anything the Air Foce wears equals "not an Air Force person." And yes, I actually like the hat device we wear. 

Lose them on the BDUs (both BDUs) too. There's no need for it. On woodland, blue tapes equals "not an Air Force person" too. On a Blue BDU, it's really pointless. For cadets, I can understand if someone's married to the idea. For seniors, it's done simply for the sake of doing so.

[coudano]

Personally, I think the cutouts for SMWOG's is pointless now. Back when we had blue nametags it would work, but if you run into someone with a grey nametag on a blue uniform, you'd be hardpressed to convince me that you confused them for an Air Force member. I'd simply consider the person that did as uninformed at best, and an idiot at worst (a lot would depend on how they comport themselves). Grey nametag on a blue uniform with a hat device that's way too big for anything the Air Foce wears equals "not an Air Force person." And yes, I actually like the hat device we wear. 

Could, I suppose, be confused with USAF Airman Basic,
who carried his enlisted grade over to Senior Membership.

Unlikely, but not impossible.

[Hawk200]

Personally, I think the cutouts for SMWOG's is pointless now. Back when we had blue nametags it would work, but if you run into someone with a grey nametag on a blue uniform, you'd be hardpressed to convince me that you confused them for an Air Force member. I'd simply consider the person that did as uninformed at best, and an idiot at worst (a lot would depend on how they comport themselves). Grey nametag on a blue uniform with a hat device that's way too big for anything the Air Foce wears equals "not an Air Force person." And yes, I actually like the hat device we wear. 

Could, I suppose, be confused with USAF Airman Basic,
who carried his enlisted grade over to Senior Membership.

Unlikely, but not impossible.

And how exactly would you manage such a thing? I'm a little curious as to your reasoning.

[coudano]

And how exactly would you manage such a thing? I'm a little curious as to your reasoning.

Well CAPR 35-5 Section F outlines how military "NCO" who wish to not be considered for officer grade can carry over their military grade into CAP senior membership.  Never seen a CAP "Master Sergeant"?  They are out there.  Even a couple of Chiefs running around.

Of course an Airman Basic is not an "NCO", but I think that the reg *MEANS* there is 'enlisted members'
Would CAP actually turn away an E1, E2, E3, or E4(who wasn't a noncom) under this paragraph?
Has it even been tried?

Like I said, (very) unlikely, but not impossible.

[Hawk200]

Well CAPR 35-5 Section F outlines how military "NCO" who wish to not be considered for officer grade can carry over their military grade into CAP senior membership.  Never seen a CAP "Master Sergeant"?  They are out there.  Even a couple of Chiefs running around.

I've seen every rank of NCO in CAP, from SSgt to CMSgt. Nothing unusual there.

Of course an Airman Basic is not an "NCO",

Correct.

but I think that the reg *MEANS* there is 'enlisted members'
Would CAP actually turn away an E1, E2, E3, or E4(who wasn't a noncom) under this paragraph?

Turn away? No. Give them "equivalent" rank in CAP? Definitely not. The reg says "military NCOs." It does not say "military enlisted." What you think it means is not what it says. There is nothing in the pub that even implies "all enlisted members." And we don't go by what we think it means when it says otherwise in black and white.

Has it even been tried?

Actually, yes it has. Didn't agree with the idea, but I tried anyway for someone. National said "no," and included a cite from the pub.

Like I said, (very) unlikely, but not impossible.

If it can't be done, it is impossible.

However, my original statement was that CAP cutouts were not needed for SMWOG because they serve no real purpose, and that any confusion with Air Force personnnel is a result of ignorance. Granted, that is my opinion, but I will maintain it until someone shows me evidence that is sufficient for me to reconsider my opinion. (And no, I don't know what evidence would change my opinion; show me what you got, and I'll go from there.)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Coudano: Non-concur on most points.

I don't know how long you've been in CAP, but I've been in since 1993 and have been in composite, senior and cadet units.

With the exception of the flying club, for most the blue/BDU was the predominant uniform.  In my first squadron, and another composite unit, nobody wore the G/W or polo shirt.

You sound almost insulting when you state that "historically and collectively" we can't wear the AF uniform "right."

I assure you: I can and do.  In the squadrons I've served, those who do not get called on it to correct it.

You may not realise it, but saying that I (or anyone) visiting your squadron would "stick out like a sore thumb" does not bode well for welcoming a transferring member...maybe a new member, but speaking for myself, I probably wouldn't give such a squadron a second visit.

We have worn the modified USAAF/USAF uniform virtually since our inception.  As long as we maintain our Auxiliary status (one of the STUPIDEST things ever done to CAP was the Aux On/Off nonsense), we should continue to wear the AF uniform, within regulations.  If our relationship with the AF is ever terminated, I will be gone, as will many others.

Most of the uniform-related shenanigans I have known of at National have to do with hand-wringing over any shade of blue ticking off the AF (witness the CSU).

I do not believe that my own personal views, or yours, should deprive other CAP members of the privilege of wearing the USAF-type uniform.  Personally, I do not like the grey/white/polos at all and have never owned them...but who am I to say that others should not have that option?

I do agree that the bloody awful (my opinion) blazer should be replaced, preferably with something airline-type, and that the trousers should be changed from grey to a non-AF blue shade (the AF does not hold copyright on all shades of blue).

I would also be good with doing away with the CAP cutouts on shirts and just wearing the blank grey epaulettes for a new member.

[Eclipse]

The reg is specific, and does not mean "enlisted". I don't know how you could interpret it that way when the entry grade is spelled out specifically.

I agree with Hawk, the cutouts serve no purpose.  I think it would be fine and sharp if we all wore them, but having them only for new members seems pointless.

[coudano]

I don't know how long you've been in CAP

I've been around for a minute, and in a handfull of different wings/regions.

With the exception of the flying club, for most the blue/BDU was the predominant uniform.  In my first squadron, and another composite unit, nobody wore the G/W or polo shirt.

I agree, it used to be REALLY looked at as a second class uniform.  It has grown in popularity over the years.
I used to wear only military style as well, and understand entirely where you are coming from.
I still have those uniforms hanging in my closet (and they are maintained and serviceable just incase).  I just don't use them.  I'll get into my BDU's or a flight suit for an ES mission...  If i'm going out to the field, but if i'm working at mission base or as a liaison, i'm probably in a golf shirt.  I think last month was the first time i've been in my CAP blues in...  six or more years???  And that was for a funeral.

Somehow i've managed to get along just fine all that time, as a deputy commander for cadets, leading a reasonable team of senior member CP officers, who also wear corporates, of a not at all half bad cadet program.

You sound almost insulting when you state that "historically and collectively" we can't wear the AF uniform "right."

You need to go to some Group and Wing + level events and look around then, dude...  heh.

I assure you: I can and do.

As can I.  And plenty of other reasonable people as well.
But not even a majority of the 30,000 some odd senior members that are out there.
Many of whom try, and fail.

In the squadrons I've served, those who do not get called on it to correct it.

I've seen people called on it, but continue to do whatever they want anyway.
And i've seen leadership do it where nobody had the guts to try and call them on it.
We senior members can be so stubborn
I don't think i've ever seen anyone actually bounced over it though.  Can't think of a single case of that, ever...

You may not realise it, but saying that I (or anyone) visiting your squadron would "stick out like a sore thumb" does not bode well for welcoming a transferring member...maybe a new member, but speaking for myself, I probably wouldn't give such a squadron a second visit.

I (more than) suspect that the same feeling might go for someone who HAS TO wear the corporates visiting a unit that is gung ho all military style.  But that digresses from the point.  Nobody is going to point and laugh or anything, but anytime you show up to an occasion dressed unlike everyone else, the natural feeling is a little awkward.

My squadron is about 90 minutes from the next closest unit, so here you get what you get, or you drive REALLY far, or you just don't play.  Anyway like I said, there is no iron clad rule here that "thou shalt" wear corporates.  If a senior member shows in military style, they can still work and play with us.  But it /is/ the culture of the unit, so you can buck the culture if you want, and even try to subvert or change it, but i'm sure you know everything that goes along with that.

One pleasant side effect of everyone being in corporates is that we haven't had to ride people for busting grooming and weight.  Because, well, they are non-issues.

[coudano]

Turn away? No. Give them "equivalent" rank in CAP? Definitely not. The reg says "military NCOs." It does not say "military enlisted." What you think it means is not what it says. There is nothing in the pub that even implies "all enlisted members." And we don't go by what we think it means when it says otherwise in black and white.

Eh, ok, I conceed.
But i'm (mildly) surprised.
I guess E1-E4 could just be smwog.  Until they pin on staff, or whatever (for like 4 years???)
'course the USAF used to have NCO E4's, back in the day, meh.

[Hawk200]

I guess E1-E4 could just be smwog.  Until they pin on staff, or whatever (for like 4 years???)

Generally, the term used is "sew on." Not many primary uniform pieces have pin ons.

'course the USAF used to have NCO E4's, back in the day, meh.

It was phased out in the very early '90's. I was a year away from eligibility for the Sgt rank when it was done away with. They don't really exist for the Air Force anymore. At the time they were around when I was in, Sgt was what you got when you didn't achieve the cutoff score for SSgt.

[mjbernier]

I guess E1-E4 could just be smwog.  Until they pin on staff, or whatever (for like 4 years???)

Generally, the term used is "sew on." Not many primary uniform pieces have pin ons.

I think we use the term "pin on" because there always seems to be at least one cadet in our squadron being promoted each month, and I've noticed a lot of their grade insignia are pinned on.

Mike

[coudano]

I guess E1-E4 could just be smwog.  Until they pin on staff, or whatever (for like 4 years???)

Generally, the term used is "sew on." Not many primary uniform pieces have pin ons.

I think we use the term "pin on" because there always seems to be at least one cadet in our squadron being promoted each month, and I've noticed a lot of their grade insignia are pinned on.

Mike

Yah I just mis-spoke.
I was talking about USAF enlisted folks who "sew on" their ranks (on their sleeves) when they get promoted.

Yes, CAP cadets "pin on" their rank (on their collars) when they get promoted.

[Hawk200]

I guess E1-E4 could just be smwog.  Until they pin on staff, or whatever (for like 4 years???)

Generally, the term used is "sew on." Not many primary uniform pieces have pin ons.

I think we use the term "pin on" because there always seems to be at least one cadet in our squadron being promoted each month, and I've noticed a lot of their grade insignia are pinned on.

Mike

Yah I just mis-spoke.
I was talking about USAF enlisted folks who "sew on" their ranks (on their sleeves) when they get promoted.

Yes, CAP cadets "pin on" their rank (on their collars) when they get promoted.

Minor difference, it just indicates that there are some subtleties between active AF, and our cadet program (which it is not uncommon to relate the two, even though they are different.)

Didn't mean to sound like I was jumping you for it, just a manner of supplying the correct terminology.

I was glad to see the patches go away on blue shirts. With stripes, it could look funky, and creases could look screwy depending how stripes are sewn on.

[lordmonar]

When I was Active Duty.....we used "sewn-on", "Pin-on" and "Tacked-on" interchangeably.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

You need to go to some Group and Wing + level events and look around then, dude...  heh.

I have been around a few, including Region level, going back to berry boards days.  I have seen some violations, but not nearly the magnitude that you claim.

I've seen people called on it, but continue to do whatever they want anyway.

I personally witnessed, in my first squadron, the unit CC, a former AF officer and Vietnam veteran, call an erring member (who never had his uniform cleaned) to attention, slam the office door closed and forbid him from wearing the uniform.  I don't want to say too much because the member in question is no longer with us, but from that time on until his health worsened he wore the smurf suit.  The CC also (less severely) called me for my hair being just a touch too long.

I don't think i've ever seen anyone actually bounced over it though.  Can't think of a single case of that, ever...

I have: a cadet who kept wearing an earring in uniform.  He was warned about it several times by both the CC and myself (I was deputy commander at the time) and then finally told if he showed up again with the earring, he'd be sent home.  We never saw him again.

Anyway like I said, there is no iron clad rule here that "thou shalt" wear corporates.

Per regs, I don't think you can make such a rule...as long as the member is in an approved CAP uniform.

If a senior member shows in military style, they can still work and play with us.  But it /is/ the culture of the unit, so you can buck the culture if you want, and even try to subvert or change it, but i'm sure you know everything that goes along with that.

I've been the proverbial "square peg" since I first came into this world...it's never bothered me much, and when the situation is really too much of a "round hole," I pull the eject handle.

Remember...at one time there was no such thing as a corporate uniform.  You wore the AF-type or you didn't "play."

One pleasant side effect of everyone being in corporates is that we haven't had to ride people for busting grooming and weight.  Because, well, they are non-issues.

Fair enough, I suppose.

Grooming is something that is 100% within the member's control (unless for religious reasons).  I cut my hair and shaved my beard off when I joined CAP.

Weight can be another issue, and here I find the Air Force at least partly at fault in that they allow/overlook/don't notice violations of their own H/W standards (which allow for percentage of body fat), especially among senior NCO's in some Guard/Reserve units (seen it) but yet want to crack the whip at CAP...

Anyway, we are not going to change one another's mind.

[SarDragon]

Remember...at one time there was no such thing as a corporate uniform.  You wore the AF-type or you didn't "play."

Not exactly. While not referred to as a corporate uniform, the blazer has been available since at least 1968. Also, the "smurf suit" was available from the late (or earlier) '70s until sometime after 1999.

[coudano]

I have: a cadet who kept wearing an earring in uniform.  He was warned about it several times by both the CC and myself (I was deputy commander at the time) and then finally told if he showed up again with the earring, he'd be sent home.  We never saw him again.

Yah but we aren't talking about cadets here.
I've let a cadet choose between CAP and earrings before, myself.  (the cadet chose earrings)
I've extended the same choice for things like smoking, smoking pot, skater haircut, and so on.

I don't think i've seen a senior member bounced  yet.

Per regs, I don't think you can make such a rule...as long as the member is in an approved CAP uniform.

Well I imagine the commander can dictate a "uniform of the day".
For example, I don't expect you'll see a lot of people showing up to wing conference in BDU's.
Of course we dictate a "class" of uniform, meaning
Short Sleeve Open Collar (means blues or aviator, short sleeve open collar)

At my squadron, generally speaking, when the cadets are in blues, the senior members are in aviators.  And when the cadets are in BDU's the senior members are in golf shirts.
When the cadets are in PT, the senior members are in PT (and some of us /participate/ in PT) *GASP*

Grooming is something that is 100% within the member's control (unless for religious reasons).

There are, of course, medical reasons as well, for not shaving, although they are probably uncommon.
My sqcc, though, is perfectly within weight (otherwise eligible to wear military style) and just chooses to wear a beard.  Plenty of guys like that in CAP.

Weight can be another issue

Weight is a sticky issue, because it can be a medical issue where the person literally has very little or no choice in the matter.

On the other hand, most weight issues are personal, diet, exercise, and lifestyle choices.
Mine certainly are.
I know how close to the line I am, so I can get a pretty good idea of other people based on comparison to myself, and I fall pretty far to the thinner side of the CAP spectrum.

and here I find the Air Force at least partly at fault in that they allow/overlook/don't notice violations of their own H/W standards (which allow for percentage of body fat), especially among senior NCO's in some Guard/Reserve units (seen it) but yet want to crack the whip at CAP...

Oh yah, there are no fatso's in active duty...  whatev.

And infact you are seeing a change right now in the guard/reserve as well.  They are running people out for failing PT (and with a max possible waist circumference of 39", that is not a trivial number of people).  Not an insignificant number of 'earlier than planned' retirements.  And even a few careers being just flat out ended.  It's for real.  Even a few people being tossed out on their ear for falsifying pt scores for their buddies.  They even have regs now that require external PT monitors to come in, so you don't have the temptation to pencil whip your buddy through PT.

There are even state guards out there now running 'fitness camps' (yes, fat camp) for guardsmen who are busting standards.  What's that, you're in trouble for failing PT/weight?  Guess where you're going for AT this year...  yeah.  They are doing that because if they don't, they are going to lose those people out the door for busting standard.  Probably end up losing some of them anyway, but making every last opportunity before reaching finality.

Of course the DoD fit standards are really about budget.  Long term health care (like you get if you earn a retirement) costs a ton of money, and it costs A LOT MORE for people who have high risk health situations.  Simple as that.