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A grade...finally...

Started by mjbernier, September 07, 2011, 05:34:26 AM

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mjbernier

It hasn't been officially "pinned on" me by my commander, but eServices was updated over the weekend to show my first promotion to 2d Lt.  ;D  Now the cadets in my squadron won't be so confused over what to call me (I believe they're supposed to use "Sir" or "Ma'am" when addressing a SM -- they've been calling me "Sir" but have a puzzled look on their faces when they do).

It seems strange that new Seniors start with "no grade" while new Cadets do have a grade. I heard one of our "old timers" mention that there used to be Warrant Officer grades? Were those used for new members "off the street" like me or just for retired military who joined CAP? Did they turn into the Flight Officer grades that are used now?

Mike
1st Lt Michael Bernier
Information Technology Officer & Public Affairs Officer
Texoma Composite Squadron TX-262
Denison, TX
http://captexoma.org

SarDragon

Cadets also start with no grade. They just get their first one quicker than  most new SMs.

WOs were a part of the progression a long time ago, but they went away when AF WOs went away. Anyone, 18 or older, could be a WO. There were also C/WOs that I will discuss later.

FO came about a bit later, and is reserved for18-20 yo SMs. It allows them to progress through the SM Professional Development program (PD), and use their TIG for promotion to appropriate SM officer grade at age 21.

C/WO was instituted in 1968, and the promoted grade for the Mitchell Award. This was changed to C/FO when the SM WOs went away. When the C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt grades were added, C/FO went away, too.

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Sapper168

Quote from: mjbernier on September 07, 2011, 05:34:26 AM
It hasn't been officially "pinned on" me by my commander, but eServices was updated over the weekend to show my first promotion to 2d Lt.  ;D  Now the cadets in my squadron won't be so confused over what to call me (I believe they're supposed to use "Sir" or "Ma'am" when addressing a SM -- they've been calling me "Sir" but have a puzzled look on their faces when they do).

It seems strange that new Seniors start with "no grade" while new Cadets do have a grade. I heard one of our "old timers" mention that there used to be Warrant Officer grades? Were those used for new members "off the street" like me or just for retired military who joined CAP? Did they turn into the Flight Officer grades that are used now?

Mike

The proper form of address would be Mr/Mrs (insert last name), but Sir/Maam or even Senior Member (insert last name) are acceptable. The cadets in my squad always called me Sir from day one. They were also instructed by the c/cc at the time to salute me even though i was without grade as an honor to my previous military experiences.  Is till to this day look around for the officer when being saluted.
Shane E Guernsey, TSgt, CAP
CAP Squadron ESO... "Who did what now?"
CAP Squadron NCO Advisor... "Where is the coffee located?"
US Army 12B... "Sappers Lead the Way!"
US Army Reserve 71L-f5... "Going Postal!"

coudano

Quote from: SarDragon on September 07, 2011, 05:51:24 AM
Cadets also start with no grade. They just get their first one quicker than  most new SMs.

False.
Cadets start with the grade Cadet Airman Basic (C/AB)

It parallels the Air Force Enlisted Force Structure   Airman Basic (pay grade E1)


The Air Forcey term for someone new who is going to be an officer, but not yet commissioned (at OCS or AMS) would probably be "officer candidate" or short spoken "OC".  Heh, not bad.  I might start calling my smwog's that...   :)

That's not accounting for "cadets" at AFROTC or USAFA, of course.

The CyBorg is destroyed

I hate and loathe the term "Senior Member."

I would rather have something like "Officer Candidate," "Officer Cadet (Royal Australian Air Force)," "Instructor (USNSCC)," "Candidate Officer (South African Air Force)," "Student Officer (British Royal Air Force)" than "Senior Member" or "Senior Member Without Grade."

When I was one of those, at 27 years old in '93, being addressed as "Senior Member" made me feel more old and decrepit than I actually am now at 45.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Woodsy

I can't tell you how many times I've told a corporate-type non-CAP member I'm a Senior Member, and they all of a sudden get very impressed and ask how I got so high up at such a young age (I'm 26.)  In the corporate world, the word "member" is the new "partner."  "Senior Member" is comparable to job titles such as Managing Director.  I do not like the term for this reason.  SMWOG is even worse.  I'm all in favor of Officer Candidate, as it implies a training stage, and, after all, the purpose is to become an officer.  As for uniforms, insignia, etc., I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.  This also gives a new member time to save up for uniform purchases and spread the initial costs out over a longer period.  In my short time in, I've already seen a few potential members walk away simply because the start-up cost is too much. 

RobertAmphibian

Quote from: Woodsy on September 07, 2011, 06:46:11 AM
I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.

I disagree. For any member, the first few months should include some training on proper uniform wear and customs and courtesies. A new member shouldn't feel obligated to buy all our uniforms right away, but they should definitely be encouraged to set the tone for the rest of their CAP experience. By the time they're six months or so into their membership, shouldn't they be focused on something other than learning how to wear the uniform?

Eclipse

#7
Quote from: Woodsy on September 07, 2011, 06:46:11 AMI personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months. 
Well, you can start with page eight (8) of 39-1, which requires that a member obtain either the blues or the whites.
Despite the common misunderstanding, the golf shirt is not the LCD uniform.  The MBU is, and considering that at it's most entry level, all that lot of new members have to buy is a nameplate, since they already own a white shirt, gray pants, and have no grade to display, cost should hardly be a factor..

New members quitting because of uniform costs are likely not getting the proper information, or are making decisions without good advice from their commanders.  In the past I've been an advocate of starting with the golf shirt, if for no other reason than most new members won't be active enough
in their first 6 months to require anything more - it's a month or two these days by the time you're really a member, rarely do the stars alighn to allow anything more than superficial ES or flight OPS as a new member, and there are simple realities of shipping / shopping, etc.  But the more CAP tries to raise the bar on expectations, the more I see how counterproductive allowing members to believe the golf shirt should be their default dress is.

"That Others May Zoom"

Rick-DEL

How long does it normally take to hear back from NHQ about Special Promotions (IAW 35-5)? I am a former USAF Crew Chief with A&P experience. But, since the AF doesn't give civilian licenses, I had to seek a special ruling on what that USAF experience is equivalent to in FAA Land. I did find an article on the FAA site that shows my USAF AFSC with a 5 skill level is equivalent to an A&P, not just and A or P. So, we put in for a request to 1st Lt, figuring not to be greedy and seek Capt.

Does anybody know how long that process takes and if there is a POC down at MAFB that I can reach out to for a status?

Thanks,
Rick

Eclipse

"Normal" special appointments usually post in a day or two after being received, however I'd be willing to bet
you're going to need more than an FAA article to make this happen.

"That Others May Zoom"

coudano

Quote from: Woodsy on September 07, 2011, 06:46:11 AM
I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks, (and the white aviator) ever.

Unless/until they want/need a field uniform, or a flight suit.
meh.
every senior member in my squadron wears golf/aviator exclusively (except possibly in a SAR context you might see some BDU's and flight suits show up)


Our squadron actually has a stack of silk screened golf shirts lying around for loan to new senior members until they acquire their own stuff.  Sometimes they just purchase the loaner, and we use that money to replace the loaner.  That gets them (particularly pilots) eligible to go on a fam ride in the airplane, and maybe even get to work on their form 5 right away.

Rick-DEL

Eclipse, thanks for the response.

In addition to the FAA Regulation I submitted, I also submitted all of my USAF Crew Chief Technical School stuff, in addition to specialized aircraft training stuff, like ABDR. I would think that my USAF flightline experience and education would warrant something in return.

Does anybody have a POC at NHQ (in that dept.) that may be able to see where my request stands?

Eclipse

Quote from: Rick-DEL on September 07, 2011, 03:36:46 PM
Eclipse, thanks for the response.

In addition to the FAA Regulation I submitted, I also submitted all of my USAF Crew Chief Technical School stuff, in addition to specialized aircraft training stuff, like ABDR. I would think that my USAF flightline experience and education would warrant something in return.

Does anybody have a POC at NHQ (in that dept.) that may be able to see where my request stands?

What grade did you make in the military, E-8 would qualify you for the same grade.

The challenge here is that the regs are fairly specific, and your relevant experience doesn't really translate into "mission skills" because we don't do our own maintenance.  This issue have been on the table for a long time - new members with strong military credentials who don't have the equivalent civilian license or rating.

It's not really much different than the pilot issue.  You could be a Thunderbird, but if you don't have a PPL, you can't fly CAP airplanes.

"That Others May Zoom"

Rick-DEL

Yeah, it is pretty weird on how actually USAF experience is not weighed much in CAP, even though CAP is an Auxiliary. Oh well. I got out as  SSgt. I guess I will sit as SM for 6 months...arghhh.

Eclipse

How long has your Form 2 been floating around?

We also have to assume that the other stuff is done, Level 1, all Safety training, EO, current briefing, etc., and that your wing or region doesn't
have any supplements in place regarding higher HQ reviewing mission skills appointments.

"That Others May Zoom"

Rick-DEL

A little over a month (maybe more).

All other training is done, I only need OBC and I am done everything required for 1 and 2. That includes the Yeager.

I just wish there was a POC I could reach out to get a feel for the status. That way I can put i to bed either way and fully get the unifroms in order. I bought three sets of rank (SM, 2nd Lt., and 1st Lt.) just in case I got approved for one other than SM. I have the SM rank on now, but was hoping to get that changed soo.

coudano

Quote from: Rick-DEL on September 07, 2011, 04:26:08 PM
Yeah, it is pretty weird on how actually USAF experience is not weighed much in CAP, even though CAP is an Auxiliary. Oh well. I got out as  SSgt. I guess I will sit as SM for 6 months...arghhh.

I think you have a marginally possible case with the A&P thing, but yeah, you would need some sort of FAA ruling or reg (not just an article), showing your equivalency.  And then, nhq would need to be aware of that ruling.

Could you walk into any civilian aircraft mx shop and be hired, and immediately go to work in the same credential as a fully certified A&P?  I'm talking about actual 'permission' here, not just what you and your skills are capable of.  If the answer is yes, then imho you should be eligible for the  mission skills performance in CAP.  If the answer is no, then well, imho, you shouldn't.

Is your primary role in CAP going to be working mx anyway?



Bottom line, CAP and USAF are simply apples and oranges to each-other.
The things on your 623 and JQS simply are not common with the things on CAP's equivalent quals.
It's just like all those CCAF credits that don't transfer cleanly into a lot of colleges or universities.

I recently had to discuss with a member who thought they shouldn't have to /actually/ task off on ground team training, because they were in the air force for 16 years and could be an incident commander based on their job and experience.  Simply put, end of the day, if there's a crashed airplane with an ELT going off at 2am, can you go get it in a proficient and expeditious manner, and in a manner compliant with CAP specific rules and regs?  "absolutely".   Ok, so i've set an ELT on the property (like less than 5 acres) here's a DF and a compass let's see what you've got...   "blank stare."

Yeah, that's /exactly/ why you have to go from the starting block, by the numbers.  Even if you do have some skills in common, there are going to be gaps in policy procedure and training that you have to fill.  By the exact same token, I couldn't take my 20 years of CAP experience and go get advanced placement in the USAF.  They just don't equiv like that, at any level.


Aside that, the training and growth is probably the most valuable part of the CAP experience anyway.  Skipping that is cheating yourself out of the best parts of being in CAP in the first place, in my opinion.

Rick-DEL


Eclipse

First - what Coudano said.  ^

Quote from: Rick-DEL on September 07, 2011, 04:51:12 PM
A little over a month (maybe more).
A month is about right for a cycle on a denial, which will come back to your unit hard copy.  Bear in mind that in the last month
we have had national boards as well as a holiday, so everyone at NHQ is behind the curve, especially on something like this which
would require a hand-held conversation.  I'm not saying it was denied, only that a month is typical when a promotion is (denied).

You should start with your unit CC or PDO, and confirm it was actually sent, and how.  If it was sent via USPS, it may never have actually
arrived.  The preferred course would be to email a .pdf to the forms submission address.

If they confirm it went, one of them should contact NHQ member services and ask the questions.  Toll-free: (877) 227-9142.  I don't suppose
there's any real reason why you couldn't call yourself, though I don't know it they will answer this type of question directly to the member.

Quote from: Rick-DEL on September 07, 2011, 04:51:12 PM
All other training is done, I only need OBC and I am done everything required for 1 and 2. That includes the Yeager.
You already have a technician rating in a Specialty?  That is required for level two as well, and those generally require
6+ months in a given staff job as well as additional training, testing, and service.

Quote from: Rick-DEL on September 07, 2011, 04:51:12 PM
I have the SM rank on now, but was hoping to get that changed soo.
SM Rank?  You're talking about the CAP cutouts worn on the collar of the BDU's and blues? Right?  (We're all hoping...)

"That Others May Zoom"

Rick-DEL

Yes, SM (Senior Member) utilizing the CAP cutouts  :D

No, I do not have a rating yet, as I have not hit the 6 months. I am aware that is required for the Tecnician rating, I just got everything knocked out while I had the free time needed.

Thanks for all of the info guys.

If I hear word in the next 4 months, I'll let ya know...

Rick