Quote from: CyBorg on September 08, 2011, 05:37:45 AM
I don't know how long you've been in CAP

I've been around for a minute, and in a handfull of different wings/regions.

QuoteWith the exception of the flying club, for most the blue/BDU was the predominant uniform.  In my first squadron, and another composite unit, nobody wore the G/W or polo shirt.

I agree, it used to be REALLY looked at as a second class uniform.  It has grown in popularity over the years.
I used to wear only military style as well, and understand entirely where you are coming from.
I still have those uniforms hanging in my closet (and they are maintained and serviceable just incase).  I just don't use them.  I'll get into my BDU's or a flight suit for an ES mission...  If i'm going out to the field, but if i'm working at mission base or as a liaison, i'm probably in a golf shirt.  I think last month was the first time i've been in my CAP blues in...  six or more years???  And that was for a funeral.

Somehow i've managed to get along just fine all that time, as a deputy commander for cadets, leading a reasonable team of senior member CP officers, who also wear corporates, of a not at all half bad cadet program.

QuoteYou sound almost insulting when you state that "historically and collectively" we can't wear the AF uniform "right."

You need to go to some Group and Wing + level events and look around then, dude...  heh.

QuoteI assure you: I can and do.

As can I.  And plenty of other reasonable people as well.
But not even a majority of the 30,000 some odd senior members that are out there.
Many of whom try, and fail.

QuoteIn the squadrons I've served, those who do not get called on it to correct it.

I've seen people called on it, but continue to do whatever they want anyway.
And i've seen leadership do it where nobody had the guts to try and call them on it.
We senior members can be so stubborn
I don't think i've ever seen anyone actually bounced over it though.  Can't think of a single case of that, ever...

QuoteYou may not realise it, but saying that I (or anyone) visiting your squadron would "stick out like a sore thumb" does not bode well for welcoming a transferring member...maybe a new member, but speaking for myself, I probably wouldn't give such a squadron a second visit.

I (more than) suspect that the same feeling might go for someone who HAS TO wear the corporates visiting a unit that is gung ho all military style.  But that digresses from the point.  Nobody is going to point and laugh or anything, but anytime you show up to an occasion dressed unlike everyone else, the natural feeling is a little awkward.

My squadron is about 90 minutes from the next closest unit, so here you get what you get, or you drive REALLY far, or you just don't play.  Anyway like I said, there is no iron clad rule here that "thou shalt" wear corporates.  If a senior member shows in military style, they can still work and play with us.  But it /is/ the culture of the unit, so you can buck the culture if you want, and even try to subvert or change it, but i'm sure you know everything that goes along with that.

One pleasant side effect of everyone being in corporates is that we haven't had to ride people for busting grooming and weight.  Because, well, they are non-issues.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 08, 2011, 05:37:34 AM
Turn away? No. Give them "equivalent" rank in CAP? Definitely not. The reg says "military NCOs." It does not say "military enlisted." What you think it means is not what it says. There is nothing in the pub that even implies "all enlisted members." And we don't go by what we think it means when it says otherwise in black and white.

Eh, ok, I conceed.
But i'm (mildly) surprised.
I guess E1-E4 could just be smwog.  Until they pin on staff, or whatever (for like 4 years???)
'course the USAF used to have NCO E4's, back in the day, meh.

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:12:52 AM
I guess E1-E4 could just be smwog.  Until they pin on staff, or whatever (for like 4 years???)

Generally, the term used is "sew on." Not many primary uniform pieces have pin ons.

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:12:52 AM'course the USAF used to have NCO E4's, back in the day, meh.

It was phased out in the very early '90's. I was a year away from eligibility for the Sgt rank when it was done away with. They don't really exist for the Air Force anymore. At the time they were around when I was in, Sgt was what you got when you didn't achieve the cutoff score for SSgt.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 08, 2011, 06:22:45 AM

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:12:52 AM
I guess E1-E4 could just be smwog.  Until they pin on staff, or whatever (for like 4 years???)

Generally, the term used is "sew on." Not many primary uniform pieces have pin ons.

I think we use the term "pin on" because there always seems to be at least one cadet in our squadron being promoted each month, and I've noticed a lot of their grade insignia are pinned on.

Mike

Quote from: mjbernier on September 08, 2011, 02:23:29 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 08, 2011, 06:22:45 AM

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:12:52 AM
I guess E1-E4 could just be smwog.  Until they pin on staff, or whatever (for like 4 years???)

Generally, the term used is "sew on." Not many primary uniform pieces have pin ons.

I think we use the term "pin on" because there always seems to be at least one cadet in our squadron being promoted each month, and I've noticed a lot of their grade insignia are pinned on.

Mike

Yah I just mis-spoke.
I was talking about USAF enlisted folks who "sew on" their ranks (on their sleeves) when they get promoted.

Yes, CAP cadets "pin on" their rank (on their collars) when they get promoted.

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 02:37:52 PM

Quote from: mjbernier on September 08, 2011, 02:23:29 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 08, 2011, 06:22:45 AM

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:12:52 AM
I guess E1-E4 could just be smwog.  Until they pin on staff, or whatever (for like 4 years???)

Generally, the term used is "sew on." Not many primary uniform pieces have pin ons.

I think we use the term "pin on" because there always seems to be at least one cadet in our squadron being promoted each month, and I've noticed a lot of their grade insignia are pinned on.

Mike

Yah I just mis-spoke.
I was talking about USAF enlisted folks who "sew on" their ranks (on their sleeves) when they get promoted.

Yes, CAP cadets "pin on" their rank (on their collars) when they get promoted.

Minor difference, it just indicates that there are some subtleties between active AF, and our cadet program (which it is not uncommon to relate the two, even though they are different.)

Didn't mean to sound like I was jumping you for it, just a manner of supplying the correct terminology.

I was glad to see the patches go away on blue shirts. With stripes, it could look funky, and creases could look screwy depending how stripes are sewn on.

When I was Active Duty.....we used "sewn-on", "Pin-on" and "Tacked-on" interchangeably.

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:09:26 AM
You need to go to some Group and Wing + level events and look around then, dude...  heh.

I have been around a few, including Region level, going back to berry boards days.  I have seen some violations, but not nearly the magnitude that you claim.

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:09:26 AM
I've seen people called on it, but continue to do whatever they want anyway.

I personally witnessed, in my first squadron, the unit CC, a former AF officer and Vietnam veteran, call an erring member (who never had his uniform cleaned) to attention, slam the office door closed and forbid him from wearing the uniform.  I don't want to say too much because the member in question is no longer with us, but from that time on until his health worsened he wore the smurf suit.  The CC also (less severely) called me for my hair being just a touch too long.

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:09:26 AM
I don't think i've ever seen anyone actually bounced over it though.  Can't think of a single case of that, ever...

I have: a cadet who kept wearing an earring in uniform.  He was warned about it several times by both the CC and myself (I was deputy commander at the time) and then finally told if he showed up again with the earring, he'd be sent home.  We never saw him again.

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:09:26 AM
Anyway like I said, there is no iron clad rule here that "thou shalt" wear corporates.

Per regs, I don't think you can make such a rule...as long as the member is in an approved CAP uniform.

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:09:26 AM
If a senior member shows in military style, they can still work and play with us.  But it /is/ the culture of the unit, so you can buck the culture if you want, and even try to subvert or change it, but i'm sure you know everything that goes along with that.

I've been the proverbial "square peg" since I first came into this world...it's never bothered me much, and when the situation is really too much of a "round hole," I pull the eject handle.

Remember...at one time there was no such thing as a corporate uniform.  You wore the AF-type or you didn't "play."

Quote from: coudano on September 08, 2011, 06:09:26 AM
One pleasant side effect of everyone being in corporates is that we haven't had to ride people for busting grooming and weight.  Because, well, they are non-issues.

Fair enough, I suppose.

Grooming is something that is 100% within the member's control (unless for religious reasons).  I cut my hair and shaved my beard off when I joined CAP.

Weight can be another issue, and here I find the Air Force at least partly at fault in that they allow/overlook/don't notice violations of their own H/W standards (which allow for percentage of body fat), especially among senior NCO's in some Guard/Reserve units (seen it) but yet want to crack the whip at CAP...

Anyway, we are not going to change one another's mind.

Quote from: CyBorgRemember...at one time there was no such thing as a corporate uniform.  You wore the AF-type or you didn't "play."

Not exactly. While not referred to as a corporate uniform, the blazer has been available since at least 1968. Also, the "smurf suit" was available from the late (or earlier) '70s until sometime after 1999.

Quote from: CyBorg on September 09, 2011, 01:21:44 PM
I have: a cadet who kept wearing an earring in uniform.  He was warned about it several times by both the CC and myself (I was deputy commander at the time) and then finally told if he showed up again with the earring, he'd be sent home.  We never saw him again.

Yah but we aren't talking about cadets here.
I've let a cadet choose between CAP and earrings before, myself.  (the cadet chose earrings)
I've extended the same choice for things like smoking, smoking pot, skater haircut, and so on.

I don't think i've seen a senior member bounced  yet.

QuotePer regs, I don't think you can make such a rule...as long as the member is in an approved CAP uniform.

Well I imagine the commander can dictate a "uniform of the day".
For example, I don't expect you'll see a lot of people showing up to wing conference in BDU's.
Of course we dictate a "class" of uniform, meaning
Short Sleeve Open Collar (means blues or aviator, short sleeve open collar)

At my squadron, generally speaking, when the cadets are in blues, the senior members are in aviators.  And when the cadets are in BDU's the senior members are in golf shirts.
When the cadets are in PT, the senior members are in PT (and some of us /participate/ in PT) *GASP*

QuoteGrooming is something that is 100% within the member's control (unless for religious reasons).

There are, of course, medical reasons as well, for not shaving, although they are probably uncommon.
My sqcc, though, is perfectly within weight (otherwise eligible to wear military style) and just chooses to wear a beard.  Plenty of guys like that in CAP.

QuoteWeight can be another issue

Weight is a sticky issue, because it can be a medical issue where the person literally has very little or no choice in the matter.

On the other hand, most weight issues are personal, diet, exercise, and lifestyle choices.
Mine certainly are.
I know how close to the line I am, so I can get a pretty good idea of other people based on comparison to myself, and I fall pretty far to the thinner side of the CAP spectrum.

Quoteand here I find the Air Force at least partly at fault in that they allow/overlook/don't notice violations of their own H/W standards (which allow for percentage of body fat), especially among senior NCO's in some Guard/Reserve units (seen it) but yet want to crack the whip at CAP...

Oh yah, there are no fatso's in active duty...  whatev.

And infact you are seeing a change right now in the guard/reserve as well.  They are running people out for failing PT (and with a max possible waist circumference of 39", that is not a trivial number of people).  Not an insignificant number of 'earlier than planned' retirements.  And even a few careers being just flat out ended.  It's for real.  Even a few people being tossed out on their ear for falsifying pt scores for their buddies.  They even have regs now that require external PT monitors to come in, so you don't have the temptation to pencil whip your buddy through PT.

There are even state guards out there now running 'fitness camps' (yes, fat camp) for guardsmen who are busting standards.  What's that, you're in trouble for failing PT/weight?  Guess where you're going for AT this year...  yeah.  They are doing that because if they don't, they are going to lose those people out the door for busting standard.  Probably end up losing some of them anyway, but making every last opportunity before reaching finality.

Of course the DoD fit standards are really about budget.  Long term health care (like you get if you earn a retirement) costs a ton of money, and it costs A LOT MORE for people who have high risk health situations.  Simple as that.