What does "Watered Down" mean?

[NC Hokie]

We had a point system before.  100 points max for mile-run, 100 points max for situps, 100 for sit and reach.  What was really great about that system is that you didn't even have to do the mile run or situps until around the Mitchell (I think you needed 120 points to pass the Mitchell).  Then you only had to add one more event until the Earhart.  It wasn't really all that great.  Even recently, the AF is reconsidering its PT standards as they don't appear to meet the goal of making their troops "combat ready."  But, we're not producing soldiers, so...I think the program based off researched standards and having a goal of "developing a lifelong habit of exercise" is better.  None of the cadets in my squadron appear to have an overly difficult time with passing it.

The FCUP is great.  Most other youth programs actually require you to buy the entire uniform.  They used to provide shoes, but realized they could service nearly 1/3 more cadets by removing them from the package.  Plus, the way that 12 year olds grow out of them, it seems like a pretty good waste of money.  It's still way better than the musty smelling, previously worn, stripe holes in the sleeves blues I was issued when I joined.

The guidance on cadet grades for positions still resulting in C/Amn as cadet commanders isn't a result of "watering down" anything, it is further proof that poor local leadership is the key determinate of a successful cadet program.  Local leaders are failing their cadets by doing this, not the cadet program itself.

In my perfect world, I'd like to see the current CPFT standards combined with a graduated point system.  This would allow those who have trouble in one or two areas make up for it in other areas.  Can't quite pass the run?  Drop and give me 10 more push ups and 20 more curl ups.

I understand your point about the FCU, but my concern is two-fold.  First of all, AFJROTC is able to supply complete uniforms to all cadets (including shoes and service coats) at no cost whatsoever; the cadets don't even have to pay membership dues.  Secondly, it can be difficult to find appropriate shoes if you're not near an active military base, and it's not a great idea to order them without trying them on first.

I agree that poor local leadership allows cadets to fill positions that they are not suited for.  My point is that "guidance" will never solve the problem as long as compliance is not REQUIRED.  In other words, the guidance needs to change from 'may, should, or shall' to 'will or will not.'

[BrandonKea]

We had a point system before.  100 points max for mile-run, 100 points max for situps, 100 for sit and reach.  What was really great about that system is that you didn't even have to do the mile run or situps until around the Mitchell (I think you needed 120 points to pass the Mitchell).  Then you only had to add one more event until the Earhart.  It wasn't really all that great.  Even recently, the AF is reconsidering its PT standards as they don't appear to meet the goal of making their troops "combat ready."  But, we're not producing soldiers, so...I think the program based off researched standards and having a goal of "developing a lifelong habit of exercise" is better.  None of the cadets in my squadron appear to have an overly difficult time with passing it.

The FCUP is great.  Most other youth programs actually require you to buy the entire uniform.  They used to provide shoes, but realized they could service nearly 1/3 more cadets by removing them from the package.  Plus, the way that 12 year olds grow out of them, it seems like a pretty good waste of money.  It's still way better than the musty smelling, previously worn, stripe holes in the sleeves blues I was issued when I joined.

The guidance on cadet grades for positions still resulting in C/Amn as cadet commanders isn't a result of "watering down" anything, it is further proof that poor local leadership is the key determinate of a successful cadet program.  Local leaders are failing their cadets by doing this, not the cadet program itself.

In my perfect world, I'd like to see the current CPFT standards combined with a graduated point system.  This would allow those who have trouble in one or two areas make up for it in other areas.  Can't quite pass the run?  Drop and give me 10 more push ups and 20 more curl ups.

I understand your point about the FCU, but my concern is two-fold.  First of all, AFJROTC is able to supply complete uniforms to all cadets (including shoes and service coats) at no cost whatsoever; the cadets don't even have to pay membership dues.  Secondly, it can be difficult to find appropriate shoes if you're not near an active military base, and it's not a great idea to order them without trying them on first.

I agree that poor local leadership allows cadets to fill positions that they are not suited for.  My point is that "guidance" will never solve the problem as long as compliance is not REQUIRED.  In other words, the guidance needs to change from 'may, should, or shall' to 'will or will not.'

IIRC My AFJROTC unit used to get uniforms from the AFROTC College units as overflow, and since we had such proximity to Offutt, we got a ton from there too. I'm not sure if the school district is required to pay for AFJROTC, but I doubt it. I'll ask my old SASI...

[wuzafuzz]

Setting aside the hazing-related issues, here's a list of ways the program has been changed since WIWAC in the 1980s. I say the program has hardly been watered down; if anything, it's been dramatically strengthened.

In no particular order...
   
Now:  Multi-faceted CPFT
1980s:  Simply run the mile

Now:  Official guidance on tying cadet jobs to rank and skill
1980s:  C/Amn as cadet commanders

Now:  AF provides virtually every kid a blues uniform
1980s:  Chit program served maybe 10% of cadets

Now:   CP includes senior NCO grades
1980s:   Stopped at C/MSgt

Some comments:

On the CPFT, I cannot help but think that it has gone a bit too far in the opposite direction by making it too hard for some cadets to pass.  I appreciate what they're trying to do with the standards from the President's Challenge, but I think it might be time to consider going to a points system similar to what the real Air Force uses.

I'd like to see the program chill out just a bit on CPFT for new cadets.  The initial hurdle is a big one for some kids.  Not everyone walks through the door with similar physical abilities.  Instead of running some kids out the door we should provide incentives to improve and enjoy some other benefits of the cadet program.  As it stands now, kids who haven't passed the first CPFT test are left out of lots of opportunities to enjoy CAP.  More of them would stick around if they could ease into the program and have some fun at the same time. 

My son left CAP because he didn't pass one required event in CPFT.  As I worked with him to improve his skills, he was essentially limited to repeated CPFT's and incessant, obsessive drill practice.  Almost no AE which was his real interest.  It was a real shame because the cadet program can offer so much more than that.

I'm not saying everyone should get a gold star for non-acheivement, just introduce CPFT more gradually and scale additional opportunities to match.

[BrandonKea]

+1

I hate to imagine how many times this has happened...

[NC Hokie]

I hate to imagine how many times this has happened...

It almost happened with one of my new cadets (he barely passed the CPFT after four tries) and it was a contributing factor to the loss of a senior cadet who had a lack of confidence regarding the CPFT requirements for the Mitchell.

I'm not in favor of gold stars for non-achievement either, but losing cadets over the current pass/fail CPFT hurts all of us.

[BrandonKea]

When the new CPFT came out in '04, it's the reason I didn't make it to Eaker. I think if I would have been able to continue on the point system, I might have had a chance at it. I've never been in a high level of shape, but I was at least encouraged to try under the old system.

The nice thing about the early system too, was if you were, say, flexible, but not fast, you could get by with marginal run times (or swimming), and have your sit and reach help you out. That's helpful in getting you to promote and it let me know, I need to work on running or sit ups. The push ups are a smart addition, but this 3 second thing is annoying...

[NC Hokie]

When the new CPFT came out in '04, it's the reason I didn't make it to Eaker. I think if I would have been able to continue on the point system, I might have had a chance at it. I've never been in a high level of shape, but I was at least encouraged to try under the old system.

The nice thing about the early system too, was if you were, say, flexible, but not fast, you could get by with marginal run times (or swimming), and have your sit and reach help you out. That's helpful in getting you to promote and it let me know, I need to work on running or sit ups. The push ups are a smart addition, but this 3 second thing is annoying...

Perhaps it's time for me to look at this a little more deeply and put a proposal together.  My general idea is to require all five events and make the current scores the baseline for each achievement.  Meet or exceed them all and you're golden; fall short in one (or more) and you'll have the chance to make up for it by exceeding the requirements in the others.

BTW, I fully agree with your take on the push ups.  I've seen cadets who can bang out dozens at their own (faster) pace struggle to meet the requirements because their arms tire out from all of the 'resting' they're forced to do.

[jimmydeanno]

So there really isn't anything that has "watered down" the program?  All I see is comments about how "hard" some of the requirements are.  I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, but am truly interested in what people see as "watering down" the program.

In all honesty, I think that in many ways it is more challenging and has more direction than it did in the past.  Could this be a case of "the older we get, the better we were" syndrome?

[SamFranklin]

^   I agree.

It's interesting that the thread started to discuss the "watered down" issue. People have since complained that some CP standards are set too high (I agree). But ask yourselves, if the policy makers were to "lower the standards," wouldn't this board react by complaining, "there they go again, watering down the program!"

For this reason, I think the whole "watered down" lingo is a bad metaphor. Let's set the standards at the RIGHT level. Some may rise, others may fall.

[BrandonKea]

^   I agree.

It's interesting that the thread started to discuss the "watered down" issue. People have since complained that some CP standards are set too high (I agree). But ask yourselves, if the policy makers were to "lower the standards," wouldn't this board react by complaining, "there they go again, watering down the program!"

For this reason, I think the whole "watered down" lingo is a bad metaphor. Let's set the standards at the RIGHT level. Some may rise, others may fall.

Some aspects are over zealous (PT) and others are lacking (AE).
Yes, perhaps watered down was the wrong term to put on this. Let's fix what IS broken and leave what isn't...

[Spike]

I think the "watered down" comments came from those that want the yelling, hazing and physical punishment brought back into CAP......like it was pre-CPPT.

I want those people to "go away"!

[Nathan]

I've never had a problem with any of the tests being "too difficult" as a whole. There were a couple of tests that I got a little caught up in as a cadet, but not due to the tests themselves being too difficult.

The officer tests would be more difficult if they were not open book, but since they are, I don't really follow the argument of them being too steep of a learning curve. Those that don't study the material at all are going to pay for it come the Spaatz, but I know several cadets that don't even know what chapters they are testing over before they take the tests, and they pass the test easily.

As far as PT, I honest think it is right where it needs to be. The goal of the PT program is not to have cadets simply pass a test; it is to instill lifelong health habits and exercise attentiveness. The old point-based program (which I think I experienced for a few months before it changed) did not really measure a cadet's progress very well toward this end. It simply measured the fact that a cadet could do one event REALLY well, and could suck on the rest. Is that really promoting the full body health idea we want to?

The current program rewards a FULL workout, and really does require a bit of a lifestyle change to keep up with, especially at Phase III and IV levels. And I think the 2 out of 3 rule addresses the main problem with had with the PT program, which were those unfortunate souls that for whatever reason couldn't pass the Sit and Reach (or whatever), but were still capable of showing the motivation to pass the others.

As far as being too challenging/not challenging enough, I suppose that's up for debate. But in the end, the goal is not to provide one more test for cadets to pass for rank. It's to measure their progression toward a healthy and fit lifestyle. So long as they are doing this, and until someone shows statistics that detail a significant number of cadets being lost due to the program being too difficult, I think we really have found a good balancing point for PT.

[BrandonKea]

Nathan - I get the "total body" theory, but let's face it, we don't all start there. Getting someone into the PT program with (hopefully) one thing they can do is (in my opinion) better than keeping them out when they can't do ALL of it at once.

Also, the old program wouldn't let you get too terribly far just excelling in one area, you started losing that ability around the C/MSgt achievements. Believe me, I worked my ass off to be able to pass the CPFT for my Earhart, which I did by the skin of my teeth. Literally the next day when the CPFT regs changed, I stopped trying. Not because I didn't want my Spaatz, but because I knew that there was little chance of me ever being able to run the mile in the NEW time, and I sucked at pushups.

You could always go back to points, add push ups, and the 2 out of 3 rule (or now 3 out of 4).

[Nathan]

I dunno... a 12-13 year old male cadet has to run a mile between 10.5-9.5 minutes... and I know people that can power-walk that quickly. If they can't do that, they can do the 10.8 second shuttle run. And for females Airman, they'll never have to do anything past a 11:52 mile. I know people who can kayak a mile over cement in that time. It's not a jab at those who can't run it yet, but it really doesn't take long to reach that time. If the overweight, apathetic girl from my sophomore PE class can run a 14 minute mile, someone motivated for promotion should be able to at least meet the current requirements.

As for the other requirements, it isn't going to take more than a couple of weeks to gain the flexibility, upper body strength, and abdominal strength enough to pass Phase I requirements. Luckily, it takes at least two months before a cadet is eligible for promotion to C/Amn, so even the C/AB has time.

If we really get a cadet that is so out of shape that they cannot physically complete the requirements (probably the run), then they can get the Cat II restriction under the understanding that it will be reviewed in six months, and they should be at least progressing to work the weight off (or whatever the problem is).

The cadets that "start there" as being fully fit are not the ones the CPFT program was designed to benefit.

[BrandonKea]

I wonder...

I'm totally out of shape. I could in no way pass probably the C/Amn level CPFT. I wonder if I trained, how long it would take me to get to that level...

...I smell an experiment upcoming...

[CadetProgramGuy]

4 weeks.

PM me and I will send you the training I send to my cadets to prepare.

[Nathan]

4 weeks.

PM me and I will send you the training I send to my cadets to prepare.

Can you send that to me as well?

[Chief2009]

Same here, please.

DN

[Cleaver]

Same here, please.

Me too.

[CadetProgramGuy]

If you want the info, PM me with email addresses.  Thanks!!