I got interested in this when I started hearing rumors about CAP personnel (not on any orders) using gyms, belong to AF clubs, bowling alleys, & utilizing on base flight schools.
Reviewing AFR 34-262, attachment 2 eligibility/priority of use
(see: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI34-262.pdf (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI34-262.pdf)
I can't seem to find ANYTHING that specifically address Civil Air Patrol members use of these facilities/programs although there appears to be quite a bit of latitude at the base level.
Now personally, I have no issue with "active" Civil Air Patrol members (active being defined as participating/contributing on a regular basis to CAP programs) and would like to see the regulation (table A2.2, Limited Program Eligibility & Use Priority) specifically changed to allow CAP members some benefits.
I might also add that this would be for "active" CAP members, and there would need to be a certification process involving the CAP leadership to ensure that NO personnel are joining CAP just to get to access to certain base facilities/programs.
Wonder who in the AF would be willing to take a look at this ???
RM
1. A lot of, not all, services on base are open to the general public. You don't have to show I'd at the base Burger King.
2 I imagine a lot of CAP members near base are active, reserve, guard, retired or dependents.
3. The base may extend the courtesy to CAP members.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on October 08, 2011, 04:58:04 PM
I got interested in this when I started hearing rumors about CAP personnel (not on any orders) using gyms, belong to AF clubs, bowling alleys, & utilizing on base flight schools.
Why?
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on October 08, 2011, 04:58:04 PM
Wonder who in the AF would be willing to take a look at this.
The answer is no one, including
you. Use of MWR is going to be specific to the base, depending on what resources are available, whether there is a unit resident, and how involved the State Director and others are with local military. If it affects you, ask. If not, MYOB.
Seriously?
Quote from: Chief2009 on October 08, 2011, 06:31:06 PM
Seriously?
Well, most CAP members believe that they are helping the USAF (and the USAF has the same opinion), so why not by specific regulation reference priority give them the appropriate access to some limited benefits, versus the "whim of the installation commander". HOWEVER, again this is for "active" CAP members. Hey if someone including CAP members wants to eat at the base pizza shop, that isn't an issue (and never has been).
RM
I believe he means why is this a topic or a concern of
yours...
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on October 08, 2011, 07:22:59 PM...specific regulation reference priority give them the appropriate access to some limited benefits, versus the "whim of the installation commander".
Priority? Newsflash, everything on a military base is at the whim of the commander, and nearly everything in MWR is Space-A
Great, I can see it now......some CAP Lt.Colonel ordering a AD MAJOR TO GET HIS KIDS OUT OF THE BASE SWIMMING POOL. ::) If you want MWR services go see a recruiter, it might take a while to start using the services after your initial application is reviewed. When I use to use MWR facilities like the gym or pool, I would get annoyed when people would invite non I.D carrying folks to use such things. Its pretty bad when they are checking I.D cards at the pool because every person and there cousin is getting on base to use it. I have no problem with people using the officers swimming pool as we use to say >:D(AT EVERY INSTALLATION ITS USUALLY >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D LOCATED AT THE WASTE TREATMENT FACILITY)
just my rant........
No offense but I like to think of MWR like the country club.....If you are not a member you are not invited to use the services.
Another chance for RM to show CAP "abuses" of the Real Military's services...
Ach.
When I first went on an AFB as a CAP member in 1994, I asked what we had access to.
We could eat at the base Burger King.
We could buy uniform items at the BX/MCSS.
The wing king extended the courtesy of being able to buy anything but booze/butts at the Shopette.
We could stay at the base Inn for CAP activity weekends at a discounted rate; as a 2nd Lt. I think I paid $8 per night.
We could eat at the dining hall during CAP weekends at a discounted rate.
I never knew of any CAP member trying to use the base theatre, Commissary, buy non-uniform BX items or use the base gas station.
Quote from: eaker.cadet on October 08, 2011, 07:41:26 PM
Great, I can see it now......some CAP Lt.Colonel ordering a AD MAJOR TO GET HIS KIDS OUT OF THE BASE SWIMMING POOL. ::)
A bit paranoid, yes?
MWR is also not just the gym and pool. Some bases offer tents, campers, pop-up shelters, tables, chairs, and other stuff which
can well be used for actual CAP mission and activity use.
BTDT.
So is it not cool to park in GO parking when using the base pool? . I use to date a smoking hot MP who use to house sit for General Barnicke.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 08, 2011, 08:17:48 PM
MWR is also not just the gym and pool. Some bases offer tents, campers, pop-up shelters, tables, chairs, and other stuff which
can well be used for actual CAP mission and activity use.
BTDT.
You can also sign out golf clubs 8)
I honestly don't see an issue with the majority of MWR offerings being available to CAP members. Many of them aren't the end cause that we think they are. Many of them are used to raise money to support other causes, like subsidizing child-care on base for military members. So, were I an installation commander, I would gladly open up those services which were revenue generating or revenue neutral to CAP members.
However, the services that use money from those funds I would continue to restrict to the audience they are designed to support.
1. BX/Commissary/Class 6/Gas Station/DFAC = % Profit returned to base services for military members = OK for CAP to use.
2. Child Care Facility/Air Force Aid Society Loans/Youth Center = Use of profits from item 1 to provide services for military members = NOT OK for CAP to use.
At one time CAP was eligible for BX/Commissary, gas station but never class 6. And that required being attending a CAP activity on base and in base housing.
I can't think of anything that a base would have on it that would be worth the hassle of gaining regular access (and I'm including anything up to and including free gas).
At an encampment the abiulity to buy a can of coffee and a pound of sugar at the commissary is of value. And the gas is not free, normally it's a few cents cheaper at the base gas station that stations in town. Saves the cost to a small degree of transporting 10 cadets from the encampment. And having to drive off base DURING the encampment to transport cadets around the base between training locations is a pain in the .....neck.
Quote from: RiverAux on October 08, 2011, 09:40:17 PM
I can't think of anything that a base would have on it that would be worth the hassle of gaining regular access (and I'm including anything up to and including free gas).
Free gas? I want to know what base(s) you frequent! Really, though, all the stuff I see on-base nowadays is equal to (if not more expensive) than off base...
Gas is close to 10 cents more on base than the Arco that is typically the cheapest in the county, right near by. It didn't used to be that way, but ever since the 2007 price quest, it's been that way. If you compute in the tax you would pay, the BX prices tend to be higher as the shelf price on a lot of stuff is already the same. Give or take a few cents. As for tax on gas, I can see the Federal Motor Vehicle Tax portion, but if the sales tax exemption is extended to gas, on base, then it's actually *a lot* more expensive. As you're paying almost 40 cents tax on that gallon, too, if sales tax is collected in some places.
It's priced what it is because .. they can.
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on October 08, 2011, 10:17:25 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on October 08, 2011, 09:40:17 PM
I can't think of anything that a base would have on it that would be worth the hassle of gaining regular access (and I'm including anything up to and including free gas).
Free gas? I want to know what base(s) you frequent! Really, though, all the stuff I see on-base nowadays is equal to (if not more expensive) than off base...
That is my experience, quoth the Wiki:
Pricing discrepancies
Although the Exchange facilities do not charge taxes on products (which includes excise taxes), the prices for alcohol and tobacco products are only marginally cheaper than retail stores that charge taxes. The lowest price for which tobacco and alcohol can be sold is limited by DoD directive. For tobacco products sold in CONUS, the price floor is 5% less than the most competitive local price in the local community; for OCONUS, tobacco prices fall within the range of the CONUS market. Alcohol sold in CONUS will be sold not less than 10% below the best price in Alcohol Beverage Control states, and not less than 5% below the competitive rate at non Alcohol Beverage Control states. According to the Exchange , these limits are set by the Department of Defense, per DoD Instruction 1330.9. According to the DoD, the purpose of this is to comply with the deglamorization of alcohol and tobacco policy.
Gas sales
The Hayden Cartwright Act does require the Exchange to pay these taxes. Fuel sold to military personnel on military installations is often sold at nearly the same rate as that found at nearby civilian locations, with it becoming increasingly common to find stations in surrounding communities selling fuel for several cents less per gallon. According to the Exchange, gasoline prices are only marginally cheaper because the individual stores are required to be "competitive" with off-post locales. In most locations, the exchanges are required to set prices to the exact rate of the lowest civilian rate within a certain number of miles of the installation's boundary, generally within five miles. Prices will be surveyed at each rate and the lowest price for each rate will be the price set at all fueling stations within that installation, or within that region of the installation in the case of larger installations where identical prices may not be practical. Prices may be surveyed at a rate determined appropriate for the local installation, up to multiple times per day, but not less frequently than weekly. Prices may amount to a loss for the exchange; the Exchange is the only military exchange service permitted to lose money on fuel sales.See also
The only reason to shop there is convenience because you need something now, or perhaps some uniform items if you happen to be there.
Folks, I was making the point that it wouldn't be worth my time to go on base EVEN IF gas were free. I wasn't stating that I thought it was free.
Commissary - an appropriated funds activity, independent of the exchanges and MWR. Sells products at cost plus a fixed percentage markup (5% ?)
Exchanges - non-appropriated funds activity. Sells products at cost plus a fixed percentage markup (5% ?) The percentages were married up some time back to eliminate price disparities between the two.
MWR - self-sufficient, non-appropriated funds activity, funded in part by exchange profits.
Gasoline - this used to be cost-plus priced, at a price significantly below any off-base prices. This ended some time in the '80s, when the complaints from off-base gas stations got too great to ignore. Since the price does not include state taxes, I'm not sure where the extra profit goes. Have never gotten a straight answer from the exchange folks.
Speaking from limited experience only.
Military Aero Clubs/Flight Training: The former USAF Flight Training Center/Aero Club at Maxwell AFB allowed CAP Members membership. Aero Club membership was conditional on current CAP membership and would be terminated immediately if CAP membership lapsed. I believe this was spelled out in AF Man 34-232 but I may be mistaken as it has been a number of years since the club closed and we all moved on.
Restone Arsenal Flying Activity Redstone Arsenal Alabama. The US Army Flying Club at Redstone allows current CAP Members membership, aircraft rental, and flight instruction. Again, the Redstone Flying Club membership terminates if CAP membership lapses.
Gas Station: It may be a State Thing but CAP members are allowed to buy fuel at the Alabama National Guard Gas Stations.
Limited experience based only on what I have seen/managed/or used.
First off, all your "wanna-be" screams, calm down.
Second, fact is CAP is the United States Air Force Auxiliary, and we are proud to a member of the Air Force Family, as the AOC puts it, CAP and the USAF are brothers and sisters in the Air Force Family. We are required to maintain PT if we are to wear the Air Force uniform, and it would be a nice "thank you" to CAP for performing missions on behalf of the United States Air Force to allow us use of the Commissary, BX, and Fitness facilities. Do we need a right to eat on base? Fact is, anyone can! So no.
No, we don't NEED these items. But yes, it would be a great way for the Air Force to say "Thank you". Why not? Commissary and BX are great shopping areas, and if you live close to a base like I do, it would be great! Fitness - thats a duh. We do after all represent the Air Force when we choose to wear the uniform.
Where I personally am, basically all of the on base facilities are open to us. The BX/CGX (with exception to alcohol and tobacco), the Coast Guard chow hall, the Air Guard dorms/barracks, the on base theater, the gym if I am not mistaken, and the gas station. We actively give back to the base, so it's earned, not given. If any of you were wondering why I eat at the Coast Guard chow hall, it is the only open chow hall. The Air Guard keeps their side on what feels like THREATCON Charlie, and they do not let anyone without a CAC or DoD/DHS card over except when special events take place.
This is something that coincides with the local unit's relationship with the nearby installation.
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 24, 2012, 03:00:53 AM
This is something that coincides with the local unit's relationship with the nearby installation.
If this is in response to me, I know why it is that way. The ANG side of the base is an Intelligence Wing, with many classified operations being performed there. It is a security matter for them, especially with the fact that there is a lot of dependents on base who'll drive around when bored.
Quote from: Littleguy on May 24, 2012, 03:39:43 AM
If this is in response to me, I know why it is that way. The ANG side of the base is an Intelligence Wing, with many classified operations being performed there. It is a security matter for them, especially with the fact that there is a lot of dependents on base who'll drive around when bored.
Nope in general some units have better relationships with bases than others. And being an intel wing just means more stringent protocol dependent on the building. And there is a strict protocol for classified work to be accomplished but that should not bar public or common areas. And if someone is discussing things in the open bad juju.
Quote from: Littleguy on May 24, 2012, 03:39:43 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 24, 2012, 03:00:53 AM
This is something that coincides with the local unit's relationship with the nearby installation.
If this is in response to me, I know why it is that way. The ANG side of the base is an Intelligence Wing, with many classified operations being performed there. It is a security matter for them, especially with the fact that there is a lot of dependents on base who'll drive around when bored.
The proper terminorlogy is not "classified operations".....
it is >
SECRET SQUIRREL stuff 8)
Quote from: rustyjeeper on May 28, 2012, 02:39:06 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on May 24, 2012, 03:39:43 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 24, 2012, 03:00:53 AM
This is something that coincides with the local unit's relationship with the nearby installation.
If this is in response to me, I know why it is that way. The ANG side of the base is an Intelligence Wing, with many classified operations being performed there. It is a security matter for them, especially with the fact that there is a lot of dependents on base who'll drive around when bored.
The proper terminorlogy is not "classified operations".....
it is >
SECRET SQUIRREL stuff 8)
Very true!
Quote from: eaker.cadet on October 08, 2011, 08:19:29 PM
So is it not cool to park in GO parking when using the base pool? . I use to date a smoking hot MP who use to house sit for General Barnicke.
Barnicke?... He still owes me money...
Quote from: BrannG on May 24, 2012, 12:36:18 AM
First off, all your "wanna-be" screams, calm down.
Second, fact is CAP is the United States Air Force Auxiliary, and we are proud to a member of the Air Force Family, as the AOC puts it, CAP and the USAF are brothers and sisters in the Air Force Family. We are required to maintain PT if we are to wear the Air Force uniform, and it would be a nice "thank you" to CAP for performing missions on behalf of the United States Air Force to allow us use of the Commissary, BX, and Fitness facilities. Do we need a right to eat on base? Fact is, anyone can! So no.
No, we don't NEED these items. But yes, it would be a great way for the Air Force to say "Thank you". Why not? Commissary and BX are great shopping areas, and if you live close to a base like I do, it would be great! Fitness - thats a duh. We do after all represent the Air Force when we choose to wear the uniform.
Let's see -- Joe civilian joins CAP and gets a CAP ID card, does minimum effort at the squadron BUT is in the Commissary every week buying food for his extended family. Surely that's an "earned" benefit by that CAP member isn't it ??? >:(
Generally on MWR type facilities (depending upon demand for the services by higher priority service personnel and their dependents), CAP may be allowed to use (e.g. gym/fitness center) and that has been addressed in prior posts. HOWEVER, personally, I'd like to see all of that better reviewed especially if there's crowding/waiting to use services, BUT I do understand the fiscal realities -- MWR/Services Squadrons need to show very high usage statistics at their facilities, so at some base locations even the local business support group may get access to selected MWR/Services.
The problem with some CAP members is they live in a "fantasy world of military make believe" thinking they are contributing so much to AF operations that they are earning (entitled to) all these benefits. This comes up time and time again in all of these posting threads. My suggestion -- IF any member wants all those benefits than frankly go join the military and perform appropriate military duties to "earn" those benefits. :angel:
Playing 'military dress up' at a squadron meeting once a week doesn't even come close to approaching the level of those that have "earned" those benefits. >:( Wow, silly me, I could have just joined CAP and not put in 20 years in AD military service to get at least some of those "earned" benefits that military members get and have been extended to CAP members at some bases ;). (as you see I'm just not a supporter for giving any pure "civilians" access to any military "earned" benefits).
RM
How much longer are we going to put up with this insulting nonsense?
RM, stop while you are ahead. Please. For your own good.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2012, 01:41:12 PM
How much longer are we going to put up with this insulting nonsense?
Well just get the misguided members from posting ridiculous statements regarding getting the same benefits that have been 'earned' by military personnel for their long, dedicated, (and with many today life threatening) service. Than I will shut up. :angel:
Otherwise, as you said, google finds a lot of things. So, Civil Air Patrol is just CIVIL Air Patrol, people should join to serve and not have any expectations with getting ANY benefits earned by military personnel. In fact all CAP members do have benefits just check it out right here http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/member_benefits/ (http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/member_benefits/). So use those "earned" CAP benefits. :angel:
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2012, 02:53:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2012, 01:41:12 PM
How much longer are we going to put up with this insulting nonsense?
Well just get the misguided members from posting ridiculous statements regarding getting the same benefits that have been 'earned' by military personnel for their long, dedicated, (and with many today life threatening) service. Than I will shut up. :angel:
Otherwise, as you said, google finds a lot of things. So, Civil Air Patrol is just CIVIL Air Patrol, people should join to serve and not have any expectations with getting ANY benefits earned by military personnel. In fact all CAP members do have benefits just check it out right here http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/member_benefits/ (http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/member_benefits/). So use those "earned" CAP benefits. :angel:
RM
It is an offered service. If it wasn't offered to us, we wouldn't be there (SF wouldn't be any afraid to say get out to us). We get about the same benifits as Airman Joe Schmo's kid. I've seen bases where they do not allow CAP on base except for their meeting nights. Personally I find it sad.
I want you to explain, in detail, what is wrong with:
Me going to the commisary to buy a pack of gum, an ice tea, some uniform items, and maybe a sandwich or two depending on the day
Me going to the base chow hall to get a bite to eat (with military personnel have in front of line privs.)
Me heading to the gym to keep fit on base when it is a busy day for the gym
Me going to the base theater, which never has much of anyone in it, to go watch a movie after a long days work on base
Me and a group of people at a wing SAR school using barracks when approved by the base commander, which again, don't have that many people in it
Me running in an open to anyone race
You will be hardpressed to find anything wrong with it. My base, in fact, doesn't mind so as long we do not take up too much space or get all of the deserts at the chow hall.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2012, 01:41:12 PM
How much longer are we going to put up with this insulting nonsense?
Bloody good question.
RM's a troll and a coward . I find it difficult to believe that he/she/it makes any positive contribution to Civil Air Patrol in any capacity.
There's a certain irony that one who borders on being an "Internet Tough Guy" calls other people "wannabees."
I think it's time he/she/it publicly put up or shut up.
(Apologies to the admins - I had no intention of derailing the thread, I just think enough's enough and has been for some time.)
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2012, 02:53:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2012, 01:41:12 PM
How much longer are we going to put up with this insulting nonsense?
Well just get the misguided members from posting ridiculous statements regarding getting the same benefits that have been 'earned' by military personnel for their long, dedicated, (and with many today life threatening) service. Than I will shut up.
I doubt it, since most of the time you have no idea what you're talking about.
As indicated, MWR is a service offered on base for people who have access and a reason to use it, nothing more, nothing less.
Depending on the base, it is used by military, prior military, and civilians.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2012, 01:13:26 PM
Generally on MWR type facilities (depending upon demand for the services by higher priority service personnel and their dependents), CAP may be allowed to use (e.g. gym/fitness center) and that has been addressed in prior posts. HOWEVER, personally, I'd like to see all of that better reviewed especially if there's crowding/waiting to use services, BUT I do understand the fiscal realities -- MWR/Services Squadrons need to show very high usage statistics at their facilities, so at some base locations even the local business support group may get access to selected MWR/Services.
The problem with some CAP members is they live in a "fantasy world of military make believe" thinking they are contributing so much to AF operations that they are earning (entitled to) all these benefits. This comes up time and time again in all of these posting threads. My suggestion -- IF any member wants all those benefits than frankly go join the military and perform appropriate military duties to "earn" those benefits. :angel:
Playing 'military dress up' at a squadron meeting once a week doesn't even come close to approaching the level of those that have "earned" those benefits. >:( Wow, silly me, I could have just joined CAP and not put in 20 years in AD military service to get at least some of those "earned" benefits that military members get and have been extended to CAP members at some bases ;). (as you see I'm just not a supporter for giving any pure "civilians" access to any military "earned" benefits).
If this is your own personal crusade, then why don't you take it up the chain, to Group, and then Wing, and then Region, Commanders? Be sure to tell Colonel Christopher Hayden, your Region CC, who is depicted on the NER website wearing the AF uniform, about all the "wanna bees" you know who just come to play "dress up," and those who "live in a fantasy world." Be prepared to cite solid, verifiable statistics, not anecdotes. I
would suggest taking it directly to SECAF, but that would be
way jumping the chain, and I do not advise
anyone in CAP to do that.
I have never personally seen, met or heard of any CAP member trying to blag freebies at the BX, Commissary, Class Six or Service Station. You
can't, because you have to have a military ID card!
When I have been permitted to use such facilities, it is solely through the largesse of the Wing Commander. I do not pretend to have "earned" them through membership in CAP, nor do I know anyone who has done this.
If you want to make such claims, you darn well better be able to substantiate them.
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on May 28, 2012, 06:25:51 AM
Quote from: eaker.cadet on October 08, 2011, 08:19:29 PM
So is it not cool to park in GO parking when using the base pool? . I use to date a smoking hot MP who use to house sit for General Barnicke.
Barnicke?... He still owes me money...
Now that is funny!
One thing that has been said and I will reiterate AAFES/NEX, MWR and the commissary are separate entities. Each sets its own policy in conjunction with DoD guidelines on who may use their facilities etc. At Travis CAP is allowed to go to clothing sales, the BX, chow hall etc while during a function. Normal use is clothing sales and out meeting place. It is up to DECA who runs the commissary to allow anyone outside of certain DoD cardholders that is on them. Most commissary's check for proper ID before sales anyhow and MWR facilities at least for the AF fall under the FSS squadron.
This something that has been brought up by some contractors on the yard wanting and feeling like they should be allowed to use some facilities and get their feelings hurt when they are told no.
Now this is entirely dependent on location and theater, but most places I have been CONUS this is the case.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2012, 01:13:26 PM
Quote from: BrannG on May 24, 2012, 12:36:18 AM
First off, all your "wanna-be" screams, calm down.
Second, fact is CAP is the United States Air Force Auxiliary, and we are proud to a member of the Air Force Family, as the AOC puts it, CAP and the USAF are brothers and sisters in the Air Force Family. We are required to maintain PT if we are to wear the Air Force uniform, and it would be a nice "thank you" to CAP for performing missions on behalf of the United States Air Force to allow us use of the Commissary, BX, and Fitness facilities. Do we need a right to eat on base? Fact is, anyone can! So no.
No, we don't NEED these items. But yes, it would be a great way for the Air Force to say "Thank you". Why not? Commissary and BX are great shopping areas, and if you live close to a base like I do, it would be great! Fitness - thats a duh. We do after all represent the Air Force when we choose to wear the uniform.
Let's see -- Joe civilian joins CAP and gets a CAP ID card, does minimum effort at the squadron BUT is in the Commissary every week buying food for his extended family. Surely that's an "earned" benefit by that CAP member isn't it ??? >:(
Generally on MWR type facilities (depending upon demand for the services by higher priority service personnel and their dependents), CAP may be allowed to use (e.g. gym/fitness center) and that has been addressed in prior posts. HOWEVER, personally, I'd like to see all of that better reviewed especially if there's crowding/waiting to use services, BUT I do understand the fiscal realities -- MWR/Services Squadrons need to show very high usage statistics at their facilities, so at some base locations even the local business support group may get access to selected MWR/Services.
The problem with some CAP members is they live in a "fantasy world of military make believe" thinking they are contributing so much to AF operations that they are earning (entitled to) all these benefits. This comes up time and time again in all of these posting threads. My suggestion -- IF any member wants all those benefits than frankly go join the military and perform appropriate military duties to "earn" those benefits. :angel:
Playing 'military dress up' at a squadron meeting once a week doesn't even come close to approaching the level of those that have "earned" those benefits. >:( Wow, silly me, I could have just joined CAP and not put in 20 years in AD military service to get at least some of those "earned" benefits that military members get and have been extended to CAP members at some bases ;). (as you see I'm just not a supporter for giving any pure "civilians" access to any military "earned" benefits).
RM
Just from my own obsevation any CAP member that does his or her grocery shopping at the commisary needs to get their head examined! I have seen prices there on par with the local supermarkets and in many cases slightly higher priced. Additionally as I understand the way it works at least in the CG exchange any profits are utilized to support MWR programs on the base! So in actuality, a member who did choose to buy their family's groceries there is choosing to support the local MWR program by purchasing there.
Thank you for your 20 years of service Radioman.
Please be aware however that you are not the only CAP member to have served his country in the past... I too served mine and as a CAP member if I am allowed to utilize facilities by the base command I will do so and feel no hesitance. Active duty always takes priority, that is how it should be and is. BUT there is no reason why CAP members who serve should not be allowed some lattitude and priveledges which generally are only availble to military or retirees. We donate our time and effort to support the armed forces. So far as those inactive members who are along for the free ride-
I suggest you redirect your efforts to getting Squadron and Wing Commanders to remove them from active membership status or terminate their membership instead of harassing hardworking CAP members.
Members are afforded some of those same privileges upon the discretion of the installation CC's discretion.
...and if the local CC or their representative wants to offer it, what's the problem. If you don't like it. THEN DON'T USE IT.
How SIMPLE is that?
Honestly, if it supports MWR locally, I'd rather give my support there, where appropriate within the afforded privilege, MSA, etc. than Bentonville, AR, when possible, otherwise AR wins ;)
We as an organization, provide a valuable service, and MANY more appreciate that we CIVILIANS, bound by no one, WILLINGLY VOLUNTEER our time and even PAY our way.
Really, does leadership at NER-MA-015 put up with this garbage, or do we have a jeckyl and hyde here?
Commissary - an appropriated funds activity, with very specific, and mostly unalterable/unwaiveable rules. The base commander has little say.
Exchange - non-appropriated funds activity, essentially self-supporting. There are less strict limitations on the customer base, and the base commander has wider discretion.
MWR - another non-appropriated funds activity, with pretty loose rules. It, too, is self-supporting.
Regarding commissary prices, are you comparing brand-for-brand, size-for-size, or just general items? I have shopped in the commissary and exchange my entire life, and every time I do the comparisons, excluding any sales, I have always found the military stores to be cheaper. In addition, the lack of sales tax is an additional savings.
For you folks who "shop around", I'll bet that you spend as much in extra gas money as you save going to all those other stores.
Yeah, my experience has been primarily with the Exchange and MWR activities, I know the commissary is appropriated funds based and besides, I have alternate means for access to that, that has zero to do with CAP, and for that matter, the exchanges and MWR resources. But in the past, I've had only two MSA's actually specify commissary access, one was because of the depth of our activity, and duration of stay, and the other was because the base was the only thing out there.
Though the tread is itself about MWR, and the aero club activity falls under that, and that's one example where we are specifically allowed access generally, but not the only, I've found, on an installation specific basis. I will say that we do utilize a lot with regards to cadet activities, which if anyone has a problem with, they can go pound hardened cement.
I also have the feeling that as the services begin to draw down in the next few years that many base commanders are anticipating a new round of BRAC. The number of people who use your base gym is a pretty minor thing for a committee to look at as opposed to some other factors, but it can't hurt either. So many commanders may be allowing anyone that they can possibly justify to use as many base facilities as possible.
Quote from: ol'fido on May 29, 2012, 11:13:58 PM
I also have the feeling that as the services begin to draw down in the next few years that many base commanders are anticipating a new round of BRAC. The number of people who use your base gym is a pretty minor thing for a committee to look at as opposed to some other factors, but it can't hurt either. So many commanders may be allowing anyone that they can possibly justify to use as many base facilities as possible.
So quite possibly by utilizing these facilities (if allowed) We are in fact providing yet another "service" of sorts > helping to show use/ need of military facilities just with facility utilization statistical information.
kinda blows up RM's reasoning that we are in CAP basically leeches or sponges sucking up the perks for personal beneifit..... 8)
of course now that it might actually prove to benefit the military, I am sure RM can always claim that we are somehow violating the
core values by utilizing those same facilities DESPITE the possible benefit provided by use statistics...
Quote from: Eclipse on October 08, 2011, 07:33:37 PM
I believe he means why is this a topic or a concern of yours...
Who cares. RM's concerns are his and none of us can judge whether his concerns are valid or invalid.
Quote from: bflynn on May 30, 2012, 02:34:39 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 08, 2011, 07:33:37 PM
I believe he means why is this a topic or a concern of yours...
Who cares. Why do you care what RM's concerns are?
Other than you obviously don't like him and give the appearance of going out of your way to comment negatively about everything he posts?
I don't, except that his busybody nonsense keeps coming up here impuning the character and motivations of fellow members.
We all have a right and responsibility to judge comments that impact the perception of CAP members, both internally and externally, especially when their premise is either based on a misunderstanding of how the universe works, or are simply wrong.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 30, 2012, 02:37:50 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 30, 2012, 02:34:39 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 08, 2011, 07:33:37 PM
I believe he means why is this a topic or a concern of yours...
Who cares. Why do you care what RM's concerns are?
Other than you obviously don't like him and give the appearance of going out of your way to comment negatively about everything he posts?
I don't, except that his busybody nonsense keeps coming up here impuning the character and motivations of fellow members.
We all have a right and responsibility to judge comments that impact the perception of CAP members, both internally and externally, especially when their premise is either based on a misunderstanding of how the universe works, or are simply wrong.
Then follow Pylon's advice and quit commenting.
If you're so offended by what he writes that you cannot help but comment, there is a second problem that only you can control.
Quote from: bflynn on May 30, 2012, 02:43:51 PMIf you're so offended by what he writes that you cannot help but comment, there is a second problem that only you can control.
I'm not "offended" when people comment on things in an authoritative way that they know little to nothing about, but that doesn't mean that
comments which reflect negatively on me and my fellow members should simply go unchallenged.
Not everything in the world is personal, but that also doesn't mean we want this kind of stuff floating around the web with no one correcting the ideas.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 30, 2012, 03:34:24 PM
Not everything i the world is personal, but that also doesn't mean we want this kind of stuff floating around the web with no one correct the ideas.
Bravo! We should all do our best to represent CAP in a positive manner. Since this isn't a private forum, misleading information and outright inaccuracies should be corrected.
I suspect we would all have plenty to say if a news story unfairly trashed all CAP members based on inappropriate actions of a single member. Why should it be any different when a CAPTalk member pulls a Walt Kowalksi and judges many CAP members based on his
perceptions of the actions of a few?
As for use of base facilities, I see no problem with CAP using facilities as permitted by AF rules or the base commander. As long as we stay within that sandbox we are golden. Heck, I've had more base access visiting my son at Camp Pendleton than I "enjoy" while on an AFB for an AFAM. The apparent gnashing of teeth and hand wringing over the possibility of CAP members using facilities is nonsense. No one is getting anything the proper authorities don't permit. I wonder if this entire "issue" has more to do with someone's need to feel special than anything else.
RM, we don't see anything close to eye to eye, I am not posting for MY access to ANYTHING. I earned my right to access the BX, MWR, etc when I did two tours and got my knee nearly ripped off my leg. No, not worried about that. I don't exactly like your little "CAP IS NOT MILITARY ANYTHING" view point from hell.
Now, as I agree to a point, I will focus on this topic.
I am NOT saying CAP should get these, I am saying that it would be a nice "Thank you". Is it logical to have CAP members use the commissary? Most likely not, unless your in the case like I am, where it is closer than the 10 mile drive to the nearest grocery store. But I already have access to the base, so no, I do not see it as a "perk" for many.
QuoteThe problem with some CAP members is they live in a "fantasy world of military make believe" thinking they are contributing so much to AF operations that they are earning (entitled to) all these benefits. This comes up time and time again in all of these posting threads. My suggestion -- IF any member wants all those benefits than frankly go join the military and perform appropriate military duties to "earn" those benefits.
I have to agree with you that some members do have a complex on if they are in the military, we aren't - but your little "Military Dressup" comment is worth being slapped for. I was a line officer in the Air Force and the uniform was worn with PRIDE. The Air Force granted CAP the right to wear this uniform out of respect, honor and loyalty. That however is a different topic. The "benefits" handed to CAP about BX/MWR has nothing to do with uniforms or being military.
QuotePlaying 'military dress up' at a squadron meeting once a week doesn't even come close to approaching the level of those that have "earned" those benefits
Okay, here I have something to say. "Earned" benefits are things like, Military Medical Coverage (Tricare), Retirement Pay, VA - the biggest of which is the medical coverage. We are talking about the BX/MWR - the same places a civilian can use on base without any issues. I have a dear friend who is a civilian working at Wilford Hall Ambulatory Center as basically a file clerk. She can shop at the BX and use the MWR facilities all the time. MWF, like clock work I can find her at the Warhawk Gym. So we're not saying lets get Officer's Club benefits, or "hey, why can't CAP get Tricare".. THAT I would be pissed about..
That would be equal to saying "Hey, why can't CAP enroll in DEERS" and "Can my family get dependent IDs" haha! That's just.. wow. No. So get off your high horse, sit on a pole, rotate a little (I bet you'll like it) and look at the fact that we are talking about Senior Members who put in time and are active on the base, to use the BX. And Senior Members and Cadets the use of the Gym, so they have no excuse when wearing the AF Uniform, on why they are a fatty. :) (Not saying anything BAD about being overweight, just don't wear the AF Uniform..)
Quote from: BrannG on June 04, 2012, 04:00:20 PM
That would be equal to saying "Hey, why can't CAP enroll in DEERS" ( . . .).
Actually, it makes a lot of sense to enroll CAP members in DEERS. If we did that, we could greatly simplify things like access to AF-style uniforms (including the Free Cadet Uniform Program) by allowing members limited access to the aafes.com uniform store.
It would be a fairly straightforward IT project on the DoD side to create a new "limited privilege" category for us and it would save a lot of time and effort by AF personnel and CAP members by greatly reducing the need for base access. That in turn saves time and effort in issuring visitors' permits, the usual confusion at clothing sales concerning privileges, etc. Win-win.
It's the 21st century, neither the DoD nor we should be relying on printed ID cards and driving many miles to a brick-and-mortar clothing sales store. Let electrons do the work for us.
(Yes, I know CAP members technically have telephonic access to MCSS, but it is has never been a practical work-around.)
Ned Lee
Futurist
If this is going to turn in to a why CAP should be in DEERS, I would say I kinda agree, but not so much. I can see an Airman somewhere going "oh, your not red in DEERS so here's your CAC Card and print off a bloody Active Duty card..
I think yes, in some romantic future sci-fi scene I could see CAP going into Pass & ID for a USAF-AUX card that the Air Force itself issues. The card would help in so many areas, like ID issues at the gate, Following of AF standards, and giving clear limited benefits to CAP members.
Also, being in the DEERS system could also help the Air Force track our active, mission ready members, and help in communication between the Air Force and AUX members. In some way we are classified as Air Force Personnel, however remote and only when on an Air Force mission.
Like I said though, in some romantic future sci-fi scene. :P But yea, I see the logic in it.
Quote from: BrannG on June 04, 2012, 08:55:36 PM
If this is going to turn in to a why CAP should be in DEERS, I would say I kinda agree, but not so much. I can see an Airman somewhere going "oh, your not red in DEERS so here's your CAC Card and print off a bloody Active Duty card..
I think yes, in some romantic future sci-fi scene I could see CAP going into Pass & ID for a USAF-AUX card that the Air Force itself issues. The card would help in so many areas, like ID issues at the gate, Following of AF standards, and giving clear limited benefits to CAP members.
Also, being in the DEERS system could also help the Air Force track our active, mission ready members, and help in communication between the Air Force and AUX members. In some way we are classified as Air Force Personnel, however remote and only when on an Air Force mission.
Like I said though, in some romantic future sci-fi scene. :P But yea, I see the logic in it.
What I've been saying all along.