No promotion after 18 months as a senior?

[simon]

I am wondering how the promotion system works.

I have been a CAP senior member now for 18 months and thought that the pilot qualifications I have achieved on in my own time qualify me for 1st Lieutenant under CAP 35-5, Section D, "Mission Related Skills".

As far as flying experience, I obtained my private pilot's certificate in taildraggers the year prior to joining CAP. Since then, I have added an instrument rating, a commercial certificate, have 400 hours total time in 14 different makes and models - every thing I can get my hands on - from a Waco to a Turbo Mooney.

As far as CAP training, I have done my Level I, obtained my scanner rating, then observer rating, just completed my Form 5 checkout in the 182 and have started on the Mission Pilot training. I attend the safety meetings each month and I am current as flight crew.

I get on well with everyone in the Squadron. My commander is a nice fellow. But I am still a Senior Member. Have I just been 'passed over'? Or do I actually need to initiate the process by submitting the CAPF2 to my commander?

I would have thought the duty time alone qualified me for 2nd Lieutenant. Maybe I am not "performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion" (Section 2-1 (a)(4)).

I see also under "Mission Related Skills", 4-2 (c) talks about "members are encouraged to enter an appropriate functional specialty track". I have not followed up on this. Maybe that's it? Because 4-3 says that Instrument/Commercial qualifies for 1st Lieutenant.

[arajca]

You need to initiate the process. Schedule a discussion with your commander to address this. Bring a pre-filled form 2 and supporting documentation.

It sounds like you should qualify for 1st Lt under mission skills.

If you want to promote further, you will need to get involved in a specialty track. Again, meet with your commander and discuss what your interests are and what the squadron needs. You should be able t do this at the same meeting as the promotion discussion.

[simon]

Thank you Andrew.

Do I qualify for 1st Lieutenant without a specialty track? There is a place to enter it at the top of the Form 2 under "Current Duty Assignment".

[Eclipse]

After 6 months you should have been promoted to 2d Lt., but beyond that its questionable.

When you say you "just completed" your form 5, how "just" - I don't promote pilots based on pilot qualifications unless they are flying for
CAP first.  And without a specialty track and some staff work, you would not yet be eligible for 1st Lt.

If you were doing scanner and observer training, what was the delay in the 5?

Do you have a PDO in your unit?  Someone should be paying attention to this stuff and come to you with the issue.

[Eclipse]

Do I qualify for 1st Lieutenant without a specialty track? There is a place to enter it at the top of the Form 2 under "Current Duty Assignment".

Not without a mission skills promotion.

[simon]

1. The Form 5 was two weeks ago. So no, I have not flown anybody yet. Fair enough.

2. Now that I look back a year, I realize that I did actually choose a specialty track, but I have not taken it up. So no real achievement there.

3. The delay in the F5 was just life getting in the way. Our 206 was down a lot last year with CA budget cuts and mechanical issues. Then there were only two people in the Squadron current to do training and it was difficult to find a time where we could both get together. Then the 206 was swapped out and we got a 182 in its place. Just stuff like that.

I will be quite honest with you that someone from our unit did come to me a year ago to discuss personal development but at that time I was focused more on progressing with my FAA ratings outside CAP. I made progress on my ratings but I can see what you are saying, in that I need to get involved with the specialty track properly and actually exercise my Mission Skills rather than just having the boxes checked off. I am hoping to be able to do that now that I have the Form 5 completed.

I will be working towards my Mission Pilot rating in February. Once I have that, hopefully I can really be a good resource for the unit.

Awards to me are not the be all and end all. I just thought I would ask.

[RiverAux]

Although CAP does have a system in place to help folks along, it is ultimately up to you to make sure your CAP career is on track and moving forward.  Sounds like you've been a productive member of the squadron and you really should have been promoted to 2nd Lt. and if the unit was on the ball that would have happened, but you need to keep track of these dates yourself so that you don't fall through the cracks.

[simon]

I am reading about the Specialty Track stuff now.

Think I will work on that first. I have some ideas on Flight Operations in our unit that I think will improve the way we co-ordinate aircrews.

I will also schedule some proficiency time with another CAP pilot so that I go from just a green Form 5 Transport Pilot to someone who is very familiar with our aircraft. The first time I ever got in it was my check ride, just after I got out of a Citabria!

[Eclipse]

All fair enough, we all only have so many hours and have to make choices.  CAP also has enough bureaucratic and artificial gateways
that its easy to find reasons not to get something done if no one is pushing you.

Think I will work on that first. I have some ideas on Flight Operations in our unit that I think will improve the way we co-ordinate aircrews.

Its time to have a good discussion with your unit CC, Deputy, or PDO to find your place in the squadron so you can get involved in the running of the unit and suggest new things.  Bear in mind reasonable people will want to see a little performance before they start
giving you the keys for things.

[billford1]

I waited to be promoted also. I wasn't aware of the need to initiate the process. I finally made 2Lt and that was a start. If you just do the Level 1 stuff and get 2Lt just follow the promotion guidelines and things will go fine. Remember to select a Specialty Trac.

[Camas]

It sounds like you have a personnel officer whose asleep at the switch. I won't argue whether or not he, she or you should initiate the CAPF2 but certainly he or she should be monitoring members who are eligible for promotion for one reason or another. The professional development officer or PDO is the one who should be monitoring the training such as specialty tracks and completion of Level One requirements among other training opportunities. Training requirements under emergency services or flying are monitored by your operations or ES officer. In short there are several members of your unit who should be there to assist you in your goals within CAP.

[Eclipse]

I waited to be promoted also. I wasn't aware of the need to initiate the process.

Members should not have to initiate their own promotions - remind the CC, maybe, but not be the initiator.

[Cecil DP]

The Personnel Officer should be reviewing the MML and STR monthly to see who has the time in grade and the training requirements to be promoted and advising the Commander of that fact.

[lordmonar]

I waited to be promoted also. I wasn't aware of the need to initiate the process.

Members should not have to initiate their own promotions - remind the CC, maybe, but not be the initiator.

What's the difference?

[Eclipse]

The initiator of a promotion or a decoration should not be "self".

[lordmonar]

The initiator of a promotion or a decoration should not be "self".

Filling out the paper work and giving it to your commander is different then say "hey boss I need to get promoted" in what way?

[JoeTomasone]

After more than a decade in CAP and having served in two Wings, I can definitely attest to the fact that the person most responsible for making sure that you are advancing and getting what you desire and deserve is YOU.

I don't care how good of a PDO and PO you have; if anyone ever came up to me and said, "Hey, did you know that you only need _____ to get promoted" or "I noticed you are eligible for another clasp on your Red Service Ribbon -- want me to put you in for it?" I might fall over dead.

Each time I was eligible for promotion or an award, I made the proper people aware and did whatever was asked to assist in getting it done.   For my latest promotion, I filled out both the CAPF24 and CAPF2 (as much as I could) and sent it along to the PDO and PO, who promptly got them processed.   There should be zero problem/stigma/downside associated with letting the right people know that you would like to get what you've worked for.   

Oh - and keep copies of EVERYTHING related to your professional development, awards, and achievements.  Paperwork still can get lost, and one day you might need to show documentation to back something up.

As in the RM, there's what should happen, and what does happen.   Nature of the beast.

[EMT-83]

I don't care how good of a PDO and PO you have; if anyone ever came up to me and said, "Hey, did you know that you only need _____ to get promoted" or "I noticed you are eligible for another clasp on your Red Service Ribbon -- want me to put you in for it?" I might fall over dead.

And that's a shame. Not to hijack the thread, but is that common? I know that I'm always checking records for such items. I've got an assistant PO and PDO in training, so now it's their job.

It's actually pretty cool to inform a member that they're eligible for an award or promotion that they had lost track of.

[simon]

Thanks to everyone for the reality check on how CAP works. This is all great feedback.

In my view, there is a disconnect between how I saw myself contributing to CAP and how the organization envisages people progressing. But I do not see those differences being a problem.

Confession: I just want to (a) Fly, (b) Be a better pilot, (c) Learn from others, (d) Give my time to search and rescue, (e) All of the above. Answer is (e). I made that clear from the start to the commander and the personnel officer. There was a pensive response. I knew from the outset that just 'flying' was not the mission of CAP. There is a sensitive issue in CAP where some pilots join perhaps to get some cheap flying. I can see that. That is not me. On any given week, I'll rent anything from a Bonanza to a ragwing, depending on what I feel like flying. To me, there is no such thing as a bad plane. They are all just different. Last night I was taking a lesson in a G1000 aircraft. But the common denominator was that in my own flying, it was all about doing stuff for me. The kind of flying that attracted me to the Civil Air Patrol was putting my skills to use for someone else. I just didn't appreciate the ancillary activities that I would have to take part in.

In the last day or so, I read through the specialty track stuff and frankly, time is the issue. Perhaps I will be relegated to remaining a senior member but earning all the instrument, night, mountain and mission pilot flight privileges. I can live with that. I am finding it a challenge in itself to do my own training and find another member who can find the time to train and check out me. So far I have just gone out and paid for it privately in non CAP aircraft. Hence the hamstring of CAP. We have I think 30 members in our Squadron and only 2 people qualified to fly the plane!

Paperwork, time. Such is the Achilles heel of a voluntary organization.

[heliodoc]

simon

Congrats to wanting to fly for CAP...stay away from or least shy away from those folks in the good ol boys club...there is definitely some of that

Ensure you get a GOOOOOD qualified G1000 instructor and one that will mentor you.  I yet to find one SERIOUS enough in the current Wing I reside in after gaining 25 hours in another State...apparently G1000 "standardization" from Wing to Wing IS NOT the norm

Stay on top of your training ...do not back down!!

[JoeTomasone]

I don't care how good of a PDO and PO you have; if anyone ever came up to me and said, "Hey, did you know that you only need _____ to get promoted" or "I noticed you are eligible for another clasp on your Red Service Ribbon -- want me to put you in for it?" I might fall over dead.

And that's a shame. Not to hijack the thread, but is that common? I know that I'm always checking records for such items. I've got an assistant PO and PDO in training, so now it's their job.

It's actually pretty cool to inform a member that they're eligible for an award or promotion that they had lost track of.

I salute you, sir.   Not to take anything away from any PDO or PO out there, because I think that combing through personnel files and remembering the requirements for everything is a pretty onerous job, but that is an effort far and above what I have experienced.   But then, as I said, I haven't expected it, so I haven't missed it.    I've had a PDO mention to the entire staff that we should review our files to ensure that everything is there, and request that we do *something* each month to move some football forward, but that's pretty much it.   But like I said, it's not something I expect, I look to a PDO as more of someone who is a subject matter expert for questions and a staff officer to process the paperwork - anything above that is icing on the cake.

Maybe my expectations are too low?  Beats me.

[simon]

G1000. On its merits in CAP today, that is a can of worms.

I know I am inviting trouble here, but since I started the thread and you asked, I'll give you my 2c. I have flown the G1000 a couple of times. It is state of the art. IN MY VIEW, a pilot competent in a steam gauge 182 could safely fly the G1000 182 with 1 hour of ground, 1 hour of preflight and on the ground training with the standby system on / sitting stationary with the engine running going through systems, plus 2 flights that covered everything in a basic VFR checkride.

There are some gotchas however, and I have noticed those. For example, compare two, opposite direction 180 degree steep turns (50+ degrees) in a G1000 to a steam gauge plane. If you really do keep looking outside the plane, one's internal gyros are pretty good at telling you "you're diving" or "climbing". In a steam gauge plane, a momentary glance tells you the needles have moved. It's not impossible, with practice, to maintain ATP standards (+/i 20 feet, although they don't make you do steep turns for that). With the G1000, more difficult. The ticker tape does not give you any visual glance indication that you have lost altitude. You have to process information first and react. Doable, just a little harder.

Where the HUGE difference is, is in IFR. Not even in the same ballpark. I can hop between a bunch of different aircraft with steam gauges (Sorry to overuse the incorrect term) and everything is the same except aircraft performance and location of gauges. With the G1000, IFR, it is a total game changer. I did not appreciate it at first until I flew it. VFR, who cares. It is a 182. No different than the 182 50 years ago. In the clouds? Not the same.

Basically, IFR, the pilot is a systems manager. Like an airline pilot (95% of the time). The PROBLEM is that you are not an airline pilot. Because you are not in the flight levels. Where you aren't going to hit anything. CAP training says hit the autopilot at 700' AGL and fly it like an airliner. Fine in IMC or as an airliner climbing at 2500fpm getting away from the local traffic. But non-IMC, a G1000 equipped 182 requires discipline to fly it like a plane with no instruments at all. I.e., look out the window.

To be sure, glass cockpits are the way of the future, but as someone who learnt in a Citabria, primary pilots in these things run the risk of missing out on some basic aviation skills. Unless you are moving up to aircraft like turboprops or jets, little planes will fail at some point. And when the cockpit goes dark on a cross country trip (as it has for me), you'd better have a backup.

I am in the software business. I know the disconnect between software engineers and mission critical systems. And ther is a BIG difference between a G1000 182 and an Airbus. Not so much in the software - but VERY much in the required level of systems understanding.

[AirAux]

Somebody is playing games with your promotion.  Come join my squadron, you can do orientation flights and I will promote you in a minute..  With your background, I would have gotten you into the aerospace track immediately and gotten you promoted..  Some people are so full of themselves..  Let's not remember that we were all new once and help somebody get ahead, not run them off..

[simon]

Thanks for the offer AirAux but I do actually like the people in my squadron and the commander is a good guy.

I am just going to continue on track with developing my CAP flying credentials, maybe even work on the G1000. A member of the squadron who is a ATP and check pilot has generously offered his time to check me out for the night and instrument capabilities and train me in the mountain and high altitude areas (He runs that course). This is the kind of stuff that I enjoy - learning to aviate safely in steep, rugged, high terrain. I am fortunate to get his time for this.

As for the awards stuff - that can wait. It would not have made an ounce of difference to those two guys CAP found inverted, dinged up, but alive in the Joshua Tree park last week. To me there is more value in a well qualified aircrew member with no rank than a Major who pushes paper. And I do know we have one or two of the latter.

Here's what sometimes (the British equivalent) of CAP seems like :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuple20I2vs

[Camas]

To me there is more value in a well qualified aircrew member with no rank than a Major who pushes paper.

See PM

[simon]

Fair enough, I withdraw that last comment.  No offence intended to those in admin. I suppose it is a necessary evil.

[flyguy06]

From reading Simon's posts,it seems he is CAP just to fly. T he regs say that if you are a Instrument rated privatepilot, you are "eligible" for 1st Lt. Doesn't mean its automatic. You cant join CAP and just fly. You should also do a functional specialty track as well and not just something like Flight Ops. You can do admin, personnel, safety, or finance or somethinglike that. But I think pilots should contribute to the squadron as well. I am a CFI with 1100 hours. But my specialty track is cadet programs.

[DG]

You cant join CAP and just fly.

Where is it written?

[simon]

flyguy06, I do wish to clarify what I want to do at CAP and that is to "fly missions". I did not join "just to fly". I make the distinction because it can be a justifiably sensitive issue. This was pointed out to me from day 1 by my commander and PTO before they accepted my application for membership. Using CAP just to go flying on the cheap and not really participating in Squadron duties was apparently an issue with a couple of members some years back - before my time.

If I want to fly for pleasure, I go rent a plane. I joined CAP to participate principally in SAR. Personally I am looking forward to honing my skills on missions. I like the crew environment. Having a pilot rated passenger is always great as backup, to point out things that can improve your flying etc.

As for the discussion on rank, I probably should not have raised the question. It was mainly out of curiosity. As I said previously, it really isn't a big issue for me, since once in the air, everyone just becomes part of a working crew. I could be buried rankless and not be fussed about it. At the same time, I am not knocking those who have achieved their well deserved awards. To each their own.

[Thrashed]

I really don't care why people join CAP as long as they do and stay active.  If they want to only fly cadets on O-flights, that's fine.  It's a "mission" of the CAP (aerospace & cadets).  If they only want to do SAR in the air or on the ground, then fine.  There's enough for everyone to do. I don't know of anyone who joins for cheap flight time.  It's not cheap; I can rent a plane at the FBO for less.  You can't take your family or friends (unless they are in CAP).  It's a pain in the you know what.  It's nice just to jump in a plane and go without all the fuss of computers, FRO's, etc.

[simon]

Couldn't agree with you more, Thrash. When I want to have fun, I go rent a Cessna 170 and find a soft field. When I want to head to the mountains with friends and skiis, I take a Bonanza. When I want to go a long way, it's a Turbo Mooney.

[flyguy06]

flyguy06, I do wish to clarify what I want to do at CAP and that is to "fly missions". I did not join "just to fly". I make the distinction because it can be a justifiably sensitive issue. This was pointed out to me from day 1 by my commander and PTO before they accepted my application for membership. Using CAP just to go flying on the cheap and not really participating in Squadron duties was apparently an issue with a couple of members some years back - before my time.

If I want to fly for pleasure, I go rent a plane. I joined CAP to participate principally in SAR. Personally I am looking forward to honing my skills on missions. I like the crew environment. Having a pilot rated passenger is always great as backup, to point out things that can improve your flying etc.

As for the discussion on rank, I probably should not have raised the question. It was mainly out of curiosity. As I said previously, it really isn't a big issue for me, since once in the air, everyone just becomes part of a working crew. I could be buried rankless and not be fussed about it. At the same time, I am not knocking those who have achieved their well deserved awards. To each their own.

Thanks for the clarification Simon. It sounded like you joined to to get cheap flying. Nothing at all with wanting to fly "missions" but i do disagree with you about what you say about rank. You should want to progress. You should not want to come in become a Capt and stay there forever. Progressionin the program shows commitment to the program., if you just come inand fly missions you are doing a good deed but professional development is important. Dont just focus on one aspect of CAP (in your case, ES) go to an SLS, and CLC to futher your knowledge of the organizxation you joined. If you just focus on ES. you will be an ES guru for sure, but will that prepre you to be a Deputy Squadron Commander, or a Squadron COmmander, or a OPS officer. You should know the complete "CAP" program, not just one aspect of it. Go to Wing Conferences get to know other (non ES folks) inthe wing, they could be a good resource to you in the future.

[simon]

It is just time.

[Gunner C]

I don't care how good of a PDO and PO you have; if anyone ever came up to me and said, "Hey, did you know that you only need _____ to get promoted" or "I noticed you are eligible for another clasp on your Red Service Ribbon -- want me to put you in for it?" I might fall over dead.

And that's a shame. Not to hijack the thread, but is that common? I know that I'm always checking records for such items. I've got an assistant PO and PDO in training, so now it's their job.

It's actually pretty cool to inform a member that they're eligible for an award or promotion that they had lost track of.

Being an old personnel officer, here's what I'd suggest for any unit:  Make a list of everyone's membership anniversary date.  Task your personnel officer to interview each member during that month.  Go over their file to ensure there are no missing courses, certificates, etc.  See if there's a promotion opportunity coming up or over due.  If they're over due and qualified, initiate paperwork for the commander's review.  If it's coming up, find out when and if they're not yet qualified slip a note to the PDO on what they're missing.

Honestly, it's not rocket science.  You'll only have a couple of members a month.  You can make an appointment with them in advance so they can have copies of anything when they show up.  You'll be surprised how happy everyone will be with a little work and communication.

[Spike]

I don't understand this thread.  Last time I looked it is the members responsibility to track his or her own pro development, achievements and promotions.  Reading the CAP Senior Member material should give a member enough knowledge to know how the system works, and if the Squadron Commander does not accept your request for promotion (other than for cause) take it to a higher level.

We are all big boys and girls here.  I hope we are all smart enough to know how the system works.  If not, perhaps CAP is not right for you.

[EMT-83]

I don't understand this thread.  Last time I looked it is the members responsibility to track his or her own pro development, achievements and promotions.

Cite, please. Sorry, could help it. 

Actually, the last time I looked, this is the responsibility of the personnel and professional development officers.

Yes, everyone should have a basic understanding of how things work. However, if your staff officers aren't doing their job, just what are they doing?

[Cecil DP]

I don't understand this thread.  Last time I looked it is the members responsibility to track his or her own pro development, achievements and promotions.  Reading the CAP Senior Member material should give a member enough knowledge to know how the system works, and if the Squadron Commander does not accept your request for promotion (other than for cause) take it to a higher level.

We are all big boys and girls here.  I hope we are all smart enough to know how the system works.  If not, perhaps CAP is not right for you.

The fact is that  the job description of the Personnel Officer to check the records and initiate whatever paperwork is required. You don't have to stay at the Holiday Inn express to download the MML, STR, and other reports to determine who's eligible for a promotion, Red Service Ribbon, or even who is due to renew. I check these records  weekly for a squadron of 33 members and used to do the same for a Wing of a thousand people when the reports only came out monthly and promotions were on paper. BTW Every promotion and personnel action was acted on, signed by the Wing/CC and mailed that same night.

[Spike]

The promotion form requires the signature of the "requester": read Member.  Then the Squadron Commander signs and up the chain it goes.  It is a members responsibility to be versed in the program and present request for promotions when the time comes.  Simple!

[Eclipse]

I don't understand this thread.  Last time I looked it is the members responsibility to track his or her own pro development, achievements and promotions.

I agree, however it is also the Commander and staff who are required to be moving people along and aware of their progress and respective eligibility. 

Few units are so large as to have an effective program, yet still have the CC and staff so disconnected from their members that they don't know who is eligible for what. 

The promotion form requires the signature of the "requester": read Member.  Then the Squadron Commander signs and up the chain it goes.  It is a members responsibility to be versed in the program and present request for promotions when the time comes.  Simple!

The requester need not be the member, and as mentioned earlier, some commanders feel this is inappropriate.

[SarDragon]

The promotion form requires the signature of the "requester": read Member.  Then the Squadron Commander signs and up the chain it goes.  It is a members responsibility to be versed in the program and present request for promotions when the time comes.  Simple!

Nope.

I'm looking at both versions of the current form, and neither of them say Member in the Requested By line.

The Word version even comes with "CC" pre-entered in the Requested By block.

The first signature block is labeled SIGNATURE OF FLIGHT OR SQDN CMDR on both.

[Short Field]

The member has primary responsibility for knowing when he/she should be promoted.  I constantly review members records and can catch things like TIG and if the required PD level has been obtained.  I also do a quick records review anytime I update a record.  However, unless the member lets me know when they accomplish the requirements, it is too easy to miss them.  I am just not always that up on who has attended their second Wing Conference unless they tell me.

Any member should know when they should be promoted to the next grade and what are the next items they need to complete for PD.  I try to give each member a written note (usually on a member report printout) outlining what they need to do.  If you know what you need, get with your PDO and find out.

[flyguy06]

It is just time.

Oh, I understand that. We all have our regular job and families. Most specialty Tracks are not that hard really. They don't really  in depth work. Let's say you are the unit personnel officer. Your  main job is to let members know what trainingthey need and give them the form and send it up to highter Too easy.

Go to SLS, CLC, Wing Conferences. If you can take the time to fly, then you should be abel to take the time to attend a SLS. CLC is the same amount of time as a SARex,

[simon]

Somebody must have been listening. I got promoted to 2nd Lt. in the meeting this week.

I was thinking as per the regs. that I qualified for 1st, but I'll let the CO make that election.

I'm still moving ahead with the MP training but that blasted airplane keeps breaking down. Just out of three weeks and $8k+ of repairs in the shop and the first time I go to fly it there's no charge. Back to the shop.

30 year old planes...

[brasda91]

The member has primary responsibility for knowing when he/she should be promoted.  I constantly review members records and can catch things like TIG and if the required PD level has been obtained.  I also do a quick records review anytime I update a record.  However, unless the member lets me know when they accomplish the requirements, it is too easy to miss them.  I am just not always that up on who has attended their second Wing Conference unless they tell me.

Any member should know when they should be promoted to the next grade and what are the next items they need to complete for PD.  I try to give each member a written note (usually on a member report printout) outlining what they need to do.  If you know what you need, get with your PDO and find out.

That is the way I have thought of it since I joined.  I had a discussion with the Region CC on my Lt Col promotion. He thinks it is the responsibility of the unit commander to approach his/her members and say "Hey, you're eligible for promotion.  I'll be discussing this with the promotion board".  I don't disagree completely, but I do think each member should be aware when they have completed all the requirements for promotion.