Help Wanted - Hazing Analysis

[DG]

I do not like the phrase "you people" however.  It can be misinterpreted as being racist.  A mother hears that and files a lawsuit. 

Puh-leazeeee!!!

Reading this comment makes me want to throw up.

He was addressing the group for crying out loud.

Lawsuit gets filed?  We need to respond and show it to be frivolous and not stop.

It is time we get a backbone and scoff at and react back to these frivolous accusations of racism.

Too many of these completely frivolous accusations get settled.  Fight the lawsuit and win, and believe me lawyers will stop bringing these cases.

Please find me a time machine and transport me back to a time when we did not have this insanity.  Or forward to a time when we have true equality.

[Major Lord]

One wonders how much of the CAP culture is the result of our self-induced estrogen poisoning. Lets assume that CAP has had a range of encampment experiences ranging from the level of Girl Scout Llama Camp ( hereinafter referred to as "GSLC") to the occasional psychotic full metal jacket ( hereinafter referred to as "FMJ"). In my experience, any credible allegation of hazing is met by CAP with an appropriate level of response. I suppose a number of cases have lead to membership terminations, but its safe to say this is rare, and if it occurs, usually represents a failure of a membership committee at some level to screen out the wack-wacks. ( which you will note is a major failure of membership committees, given the number of certifiable loons in the program)

The koom-bayh-yah, dope smoking peaceniks who see any resemblance or affiliation to the military as a personal affront, and in the words of one former President, "loathe the military", seem to be particularly vocal in the irrational phobia of hazing.

Why do I say this is irrational? Because the scope of the overreaction is totally disproportionate to the actual risk. When CAP has had a genuine problem, it has acted quickly and rationally to act upon the problem. How many times has CAP actually been sued, a member arrested , or a member received formal discipline for hazing? Show me a case number and I will believe it, but for the most part, its just oral tradition by our most fearful members. The RST PPT is a good example of political correctness run amuck. The assertion that a white cadet addressing a black cadet in ranks at an encampment is to be avoided to "avoid the appearance of evil" is  insulting to our dedicated members, and shows a profound lack of common sense.

If you want to develop a model for an acceptable level of intensity without crossing into the threshold of hazing, a study of member arrests, terminations, complaints, and a review of how conflicts were actually resolved would prove instructive. My guess is that this would have to be regional. An action viewed as normal in CAWG ( a good 5 on the FMJ scale) versus Hawaii ( a 3 on the GSLC index) would likely result in a disparity of outcomes.

On the other hand, Cadets (and seniors for that matter) seem to come away with critical life changing experiences in direct proportion to the challenges and emotional content of the experience. How many cadets have formed lifetime friendships or been changed forever as a result of an encampment? I would venture to say that more Cadets have benefited from the median FMJ experience than the Median GSLC experience. Courage is the most perishable of all our positive human attributes, and placing cadets in a  full body prophylactic of lawyer, hippie, and bedwetter, crafted protections does them a tremendous disservice, and betrays our affiliation to USAF and frankly, America.

Major Lord

[raivo]

I do not like the phrase "you people" however.  It can be misinterpreted as being racist.

"What do you mean, 'you people?'"
"What do YOU mean, 'you people?'"

[RiverAux]

Ned, I think the best way to address this in the training materials is to give a couple of dozen examples of what CAP considers hazing and about the same number of examples of what we wouldn't. 

[DG]

I do not like the phrase "you people" however.  It can be misinterpreted as being racist.

"What do you mean, 'you people?'"
"What do YOU mean, 'you people?'"

Yes!!!

That is what we need.

Humor and proper perspective.

Young people will lead us.  Out of this insanity.

To true equality.

Thank you for providing some humor and proper perspective.

[Larry Mangum]

Ned,

Not hazing. Usage would require a small amount of discussion about the time period of the film and the different outlook on females versus men of that time period. Same for teh references to the smoking lamp and booze.

At no time did he personally attack a trainee either physically or mentally.  It is fact probably a good example of a DI attempting to convert individuals into a platoon.

Just my .02 cents

[N Harmon]

If the series of events shown in the movie involved CAP cadets at encampment, and occurred precisely the same, I would consider some parts to be hazing. To start, repeatedly forcing the basic members to jump into and out of bed using a loud, intimidating alarm, creates a chaotic stress environment that is difficult for adolescents to comprehend and adapt to.

After the DI's "cheerful good morning", the DI makes an implication that if he hears a basic member call him a bad name that he will do something to cause him to go to the brig. This type of threat is clearly hazing.

Aside from those two things, there were a few things that would not be appropriate for a CAP training environment, but would not be considered hazing. For example, asking Rodriguez what he would do if he were surrounded by an enemy force would not be hazing nor appropriate.

I think the drill instructor in this case could dispense with the hazing while still providing an effective military training environment. While the real military must push its recruits to the limits of their coping and adaptation abilities, there is no need for that in Civil Air Patrol. In fact, pushing such limits may be counterproductive, and harmful given the age groups of our cadets.

[Major Lord]

If the series of events shown in the movie involved CAP cadets at encampment, and occurred precisely the same, I would consider some parts to be hazing. To start, repeatedly forcing the basic members to jump into and out of bed using a loud, intimidating alarm, creates a chaotic stress environment that is difficult for adolescents to comprehend and adapt to.

Good thing then they don't allow any adolescents in the military! Oh,...... wait,...... never mind.

Major Lord

[Short Field]

If the series of events shown in the movie involved CAP cadets at encampment, and occurred precisely the same, I would consider some parts to be hazing. To start, repeatedly forcing the basic members to jump into and out of bed using a loud, intimidating alarm, creates a chaotic stress environment that is difficult for adolescents to comprehend and adapt to.

Good thing then they don't allow any adolescents in the military! Oh,...... wait,...... never mind.

Major Lord

Durn, I must be blind as I really missed seeing all the 11-16 year olds when I went through basic training.   But then I was in the United States, not Africa with their kid warriors....

[NCRblues]

If the series of events shown in the movie involved CAP cadets at encampment, and occurred precisely the same, I would consider some parts to be hazing. To start, repeatedly forcing the basic members to jump into and out of bed using a loud, intimidating alarm, creates a chaotic stress environment that is difficult for adolescents to comprehend and adapt to.

Oh man, where have I heard a loud chaotic alarm before...... oh wait every fire drill that takes place at every encampment I have been to, and every school in this nation, and every federal building and on and on.... I guess this means we have to stop having fire drills at encampment because it might be hard for adolescents to comprehend fire=hot.  give me a break.

[raivo]

I think the drill instructor in this case could dispense with the hazing while still providing an effective military training environment.

What IS a military training environment, then? One of the very things that makes military training environments military, is the type of discipline you see in that video. If you take that away, then the only "military" parts left are the uniforms and rank/command structure. Encampment is not just a summer camp with a tighter schedule and a uniform of the day.

While the real military must push its recruits to the limits of their coping and adaptation abilities, there is no need for that in Civil Air Patrol. In fact, pushing such limits may be counterproductive, and harmful given the age groups of our cadets

Personally, I think that our society's developed such a paranoia about harming our kids that we coddle them to the point of being far too overprotective. As I said before, there are certainly limits that we can't and shouldn't cross, but if we worry excessively that we might maybe possibly cause "psychological damage" to cadets years down the road ("I... I was having a dream... about [whatever teenagers dream about these days]... and my flight sergeant woke me up by banging on a trash can... it was horrible..."), we're going end up precluding ourselves from doing just about anything. If I may quote one of my favorite TV shows/characters, Detective Munch of Law and Order: SVU - "You watch over them twenty-four hours a day, you wind up with safe little neurotics." Most cadets I know who went to encampment, even the "hardcore" (by today's standards) encampments, absolutely loved it. Yes, you get yelled at, yes, you get woken up early, but you make a lot of great friends, see a lot of cool stuff, and learn a lot of new things, and at the end you get to say "I survived encampment. WHAT NOW?" Cadets are more mature than we give them credit for - we're training them in leadership, and expecting them to perform the cadet equivalent of USAF jobs, but we're worried that waking them up by banging on a trashcan is going to be harmful to them?

I think it might (emphasis on *might*) be a good idea for NHQ to have CAP-USAF get the input of some of the MTI instructors at Lackland. The DoD definition of "hazing" is the same for them as it is for us - why not ask the people who professionally train people to train recruits? I agree that cadets shouldn't be treated quite like recruits, but I would bet they have some good insights.

And since we're talking about discipline, have a related video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQWW1Qp5O_A

[JoeTomasone]

I think it might (emphasis on *might*) be a good idea for NHQ to have CAP-USAF get the input of some of the MTI instructors at Lackland. The DoD definition of "hazing" is the same for them as it is for us - why not ask the people who professionally train people to train recruits? I agree that cadets shouldn't be treated quite like recruits, but I would bet they have some good insights.

Well, let's also keep in mind that many of the recruit training programs (Navy Seal BUDS, to name one) have been similarly emasculated due to complaints made to Congress.    We may get the same kind of reminiscences about the "good old days" that we are partaking in here on CAPTALK.   I am sure that the party line is much the same as the CAP party line - "all that draconian stuff isn't necessary, coddling works".

[Major Lord]

If the series of events shown in the movie involved CAP cadets at encampment, and occurred precisely the same, I would consider some parts to be hazing. To start, repeatedly forcing the basic members to jump into and out of bed using a loud, intimidating alarm, creates a chaotic stress environment that is difficult for adolescents to comprehend and adapt to.

Good thing then they don't allow any adolescents in the military! Oh,...... wait,...... never mind.

Major Lord

Durn, I must be blind as I really missed seeing all the 11-16 year olds when I went through basic training.   But then I was in the United States, not Africa with their kid warriors....

The early adolescent falls in the age range of 11-14 years, the mid adolescent age range is 15-18 years, and the late adolescent age range is 19-24 years.

Major Lord

[DG]

If the series of events shown in the movie involved CAP cadets at encampment, and occurred precisely the same, I would consider some parts to be hazing. To start, repeatedly forcing the basic members to jump into and out of bed using a loud, intimidating alarm, creates a chaotic stress environment that is difficult for adolescents to comprehend and adapt to.

After the DI's "cheerful good morning", the DI makes an implication that if he hears a basic member call him a bad name that he will do something to cause him to go to the brig. This type of threat is clearly hazing.

Aside from those two things, there were a few things that would not be appropriate for a CAP training environment, but would not be considered hazing. For example, asking Rodriguez what he would do if he were surrounded by an enemy force would not be hazing nor appropriate.

I think the drill instructor in this case could dispense with the hazing while still providing an effective military training environment. While the real military must push its recruits to the limits of their coping and adaptation abilities, there is no need for that in Civil Air Patrol. In fact, pushing such limits may be counterproductive, and harmful given the age groups of our cadets.

Puh-leaze.

My sense is that cadets want to be treated as teenager military service aspirants.

Teenage soldiers and airmen working their way to be officers.  Properly uniformed in AF-style.  And NOT with any sugar coating.

Wannabes, which we hear so much about around here.

[heliodoc]

CAPers wanting to know the hazing ought to draw from the MTI and DI ranks and have CAP bring those folks in on all those NB, NEB, RSC ot other meeting as guest speakers and have the PROS tell CAP how it works and the pros and cons of getting a team of professionals together to get a common objective done.... CAP sometime still needs to bring its own professionals together.....some thing that can not be online, other than conference calls.

Maybe with all those NCSA's that SM's can attend, there could be a REAL TAC Officer course that CAPers could attend  (while all those other meetings are going on) and for those real hard core CAPers who wannabe a TAC.  I am sure TAC's are trained in the psychology of the development of a group.  Why do you suppose there is DI or a MTI school for Active Duty. 

NO CAP you can not create an online course for this stuff.........yoy have to WANT it and actually attend a school for this stuff

IT is time CAP dials up Lackland AFB, Fort Lost in the Woods, MO, Fort Dix, NJ, Fort Jackson,SC and other and get the real deal

Cadets get into this stuff and CAP then could put a little show on for the parents stating that while CAP is not a military service, it can provide the the information on the REAL playas that use "HAZING" that has been watered down by Congress by making a few phone calls

I know of a few squadrons that INVITE folks right out of BCT and MTI and at the same time, schedule a night with the parents of prospective cadets...I mean, how hard can this stuff be??  Only CAP, so far that I am familiar with, has made this an issue, while some of the membership is trying to be all military and stuff by dressing down folks with all the uniform violations, but yet, when it come to an issue, with hazing along the lines of military training, CAP becomes a "'fraidy cat" and can not deal with parents until there are issues.

CAP..... on the edge of always being reactive than proactive

[Ned]

IT is time CAP dials up Lackland AFB, Fort Lost in the Woods, MO, Fort Dix, NJ, Fort Jackson,SC and other and get the real deal

Oddly enough, NHQ sent a representative out to the AF Academy last year to do exactly that - meet with school-trained MTIs and academy trainers to discuss how the professionals create and adjust an appropriate military intensity level for a given activity.  The goal was to capture the data and use it to create doctrine and training materials for CAP that will allow us to set a more challenging and uniform (no pun intended) cadet program.

And we can and should discuss "look and feel" questions in another thread.  It is an important discussion to have.

This thread is intended to gather some data about how CAP members view a specific situation and how our existing hazing definition would be applied in today's environment by a sample of CAP members. 

Feedback from this thread will be used to help design the training materials for cadet leaders.

Please continue the discussion - "If this had been done in a CAP context like an encampment, would it be hazing?  Yes or no, and why."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(And Doctrine Developer)

[heliodoc]

Ned

From my .02 perspective and being from RM..

Why does CAP have to reinvent ANY sort of training materials when the RM has those training materials available?

CAP ought to go to Maxwell AFB library and look MORE and better research that probably already has been done...

What kind of research are you looking for?  How about trying: 1) some REAL educators on for size  2) Some real documentation from US armed services ...I am sure there is at least ONE  research pub on this very subject.

What are the specific situations?  Does the situation require banging trashcans?  How about that to simulate to cadets...the noisiness of a flight line or the klaxon  at the fire hall?  I mean what situations does CAP need to address allll this?   Heck, you might as well start a CAP SCIP  (School Community Improvement Program) where the neighborhood runs the the school district and because a few parents do not like the way the principal runs a school, they are run out on a rail.   Now granted there are needs to do that times.  But the principal is THE Sqdn CC, for lack of better terms and when the parents begin running the school district with less than a principals academic credentials.... well you get my point...

What are the sample CAP members?  Seniors or Cadets?  Is this a "new" CAP reg" or a rehash of today's almost current CAP Manuals?

Maybe CAP ought to  have parental involvement  'cuz it sure seems here that CAP is doing ALOT of damage control without it.  But these are perspectives.  I personally was not aware of the NHQ trip to USAFA.  Then there ought not too many problems on how CAP needs to go about this "little" hazing issue.  How many CAP lagal types can read alll the information supplied by the USAFA and what sort of Guv project does that become to have CAP legal involvement?  That should stall getting a document / manual out to the field for at LEAST 2-5 yrs for that paralysis of the analysis... 

When all that was done to my in the '70's and again during BCT...I wasn't callin' Mommy over the issue of the let alone some C/ MSgt dropping and giving me twenty.....

I say give ALLLLLL cadets an opportunity  to drop for 20 and get a trash can banged in the ear.   But CAP needs to address that in its "manuals" and probably should have a disclaimer in the preface or at the end of each chapter, a a Gold Seal parents association and all that CAP legal mumbo jumbo to keep everyone out of the bear trap and out of court..

[N Harmon]

Good thing then they don't allow any adolescents in the military! Oh,...... wait,...... never mind.

The early adolescent falls in the age range of 11-14 years, the mid adolescent age range is 15-18 years, and the late adolescent age range is 19-24 years.

Most texts on the subject consider the transition from adolescence into young adulthood to occur between 16 and 19, with a few going as far as 20. A 24 year old cognitive adolescent might be considered mentally retarded. Let's be clear, recruiters are supposed to judge the mental maturity of potential recruits and exclude (or at least delay) those who lack the maturity to be of service. Whether they actually do that or not is entirely beside the point because it differs greatly from the basis by which Civil Air Patrol judges the appropriate maturity of cadets.

And that is the difference. A military instructor has to consider "is this appropriate for a bunch of adults who are allowed to quit whenever they want", vs "is this appropriate for a bunch of minors who while technically may be allowed to quit are under immense pressures to stay?"

Oh man, where have I heard a loud chaotic alarm before...... oh wait every fire drill that takes place at every encampment I have been to, and every school in this nation, and every federal building and on and on.... I guess this means we have to stop having fire drills at encampment because it might be hard for adolescents to comprehend fire=hot.  give me a break.

That is a mighty fine strawman you've built to rebut my argument, but you fail in one regard. Fire drills have the purpose of ensuring people are capable of evacuating buildings efficiently. In other words there is a reasonable safety benefit that outweighs any potential negative consequences.

Tell me, what would be the benefit of continually making cadets hop into and out of bed?

What IS a military training environment, then? One of the very things that makes military training environments military, is the type of discipline you see in that video.

You can teach discipline without hazing. Wouldn't you agree?

Personally, I think that our society's developed such a paranoia about harming our kids that we coddle them to the point of being far too overprotective.

I think that is a fair criticism, but some might argue it is better to be bit overprotective than underprotective.

The way I look at it is like this: If you're doing something and it has the potential to be hazing, but is legitimate training, then it should be permissible. In watching the beginning of the video where the DI has them jumping into and out of bed repeatedly I thought about how such a methodology might be applied appropriately.

The thing that came to mind was teaching cadets to come to attention when officers walked into a room. Would it be appropriate to repeat that a few times until done right? I think so.

But in this case, simply banging on trash cans and flicking the lights to make the recruits miserable? That is the type of initiation shenanigans that falls well within hazing.

My sense is that cadets want to be treated as teenager military service aspirants.

Good. Go and treat them as they want. They can pound ground team badges into their chests and make basics wear pink pistol belts, and whatever other childish crap they make up next. Later you can wonder why your "leaders" have a hard time leading people too.

[Rotorhead]

"Hazing" appears to be defined more loosely all the time.

The current definition seems to be "anything that will make a cadet unhappy."

Encampment is not intended to be happy fun-time with singing around the campfire. It should introduce cadets to the military lifestyle, and that includes stringent discipline.

We're not doing them a service by ruling everything more harsh than a smile and a kind word to be hazing.

Ned, I have no problem with the video. It is harsh without being crude or cruel.

[Major Lord]

Anyone introducing a thread should know ahead of time how far afield the original posers query will go; That is to say, as wide as possible, and eventually, like all such posts, ending in a discussion of Uniforms and Hats. Lots of hats.

Focusing on the narrow question of Jack's ( may he live forever in the halls of Valhalla) soliloquy, I personally feel that none of his actions would rise to the level of hazing, but looking at it from the standpoint of the Advocatus Diaboli, I will address his possible sins as seen through the eyes of our most tender members:

1) "Little Girls". Sexually demeaning, Sexist, not generally constructive.
2) Exhibiting a pistol in a way not authorized by regulation, and intimidating.
3) "Burr-Headed Idiots" Demeaning, Non-constructive, and racially pejorative.
4) Threats of imprisonment for unspecified thought-crimes, malicious or retributive prosecution or discipline.
5) "Clowns" - Demeaning and non-constructive. Racist allusion to criminal street gang.
6) Brandishing  a menacing "Swagger Stick"- appears to be restraining himself from striking recruits.
7) "Filthy Mouth" Demeaning, ad hominem attack
8 "Chinese fire drill" Racist and bigoted. ( see "Burr headed", and "Clowns" in the context of establishing a pattern or hazing) 
9) "Mop-Head" Demeaning, ad hominem attack.

A parent or cadet making some or any of these complaints (to an IG)  would probably prevail on some of them, with additional guidance being sent to the members at large and personally in the form of over-broad set of guidelines. I doubt that anyone would swing from the Yardarm. ( Do we have any yardarms?)

Major Lord