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AE grant in OK

Started by RiverAux, September 25, 2009, 03:16:59 AM

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RiverAux

For the life of me I can't figure out how this costs, 10K, but the OK Wing got a grant from their state aeronautics commission for 5 GPS receivers and a 1-year subscription to XM Aviation weather.  http://okc.biz/article/09-24-2009/Oklahoma_Aeronautics_Commission_approves_education_funding.aspx

You AE types may want to look into this.  I can't recall my wing getting a grant from this sort of source for AE stuff. 

CFI_Ed

Quote from: RiverAux on September 25, 2009, 03:16:59 AM
For the life of me I can't figure out how this costs, 10K, but the OK Wing got a grant from their state aeronautics commission for 5 GPS receivers and a 1-year subscription to XM Aviation weather.  http://okc.biz/article/09-24-2009/Oklahoma_Aeronautics_Commission_approves_education_funding.aspx

You AE types may want to look into this.  I can't recall my wing getting a grant from this sort of source for AE stuff.
The Garmin's will be used for classroom training of Cadets and SMs on GPS use.  Normally, the units will be in our five 172P/S models and a steam guage 182T.  Having the XM weather in our G1000s is such an aid for situational awareness, we were wondering if there was a way to bring it to the other birds in the wing.  With this grant we can have hands-on GPS training for members of the wing, and improve flight safety. :)
The cost issue = five GPSMAP396 @ $1495 is almost $7500. (I thought the commander wrote the grant for six units, must be mistaken.)  Then the cost of XM weather for those five units for one year is $3000.
Ed Angala, Lt Col, CAP
Oklahoma Wing/DO

desertengineer1

Congratulations, Ed!!!! 

Always happy to hear news like this.

:clap:

RiverAux

Okay, it wasn't clear that these were GPS units to be installed in airplanes.  I was thinking handheld units.  And if you're putting the XM in all 5 planes, that would also make a little more sense. 

I'm surprised you got this through as an AE grant though.  Seems like a straight-out equipment upgrade for operational use.  Good for you though.

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: CFI_Ed on September 25, 2009, 08:54:27 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on September 25, 2009, 03:16:59 AM
For the life of me I can't figure out how this costs, 10K, but the OK Wing got a grant from their state aeronautics commission for 5 GPS receivers and a 1-year subscription to XM Aviation weather.  http://okc.biz/article/09-24-2009/Oklahoma_Aeronautics_Commission_approves_education_funding.aspx

You AE types may want to look into this.  I can't recall my wing getting a grant from this sort of source for AE stuff.
The Garmin's will be used for classroom training of Cadets and SMs on GPS use.  Normally, the units will be in our five 172P/S models and a steam guage 182T.  Having the XM weather in our G1000s is such an aid for situational awareness, we were wondering if there was a way to bring it to the other birds in the wing.  With this grant we can have hands-on GPS training for members of the wing, and improve flight safety. :)
The cost issue = five GPSMAP396 @ $1495 is almost $7500. (I thought the commander wrote the grant for six units, must be mistaken.)  Then the cost of XM weather for those five units for one year is $3000.
After the year is up your wing is going to support the $3K per year for XM weather ???  I think it's great to get grants but frankly don't you think you went overboard with this, especially tying this into a cadet training program?  >:( You could have bought less expensive units and equipped EVERY squadron in your wing with GPS for the cadets to use OR does every unit in OK wing already have a GPS ??? ???
RM

Pylon

#5
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 26, 2009, 07:03:28 PM
After the year is up your wing is going to support the $3K per year for XM weather ???  I think it's great to get grants but frankly don't you think you went overboard with this, especially tying this into a cadet training program?  >:(

Buying a cheap car GPS or handheld hiker's GPS from Sport's Authority is not an equivalent replacement for an aviation GPS.  The cost is reasonable for those types of units.

Second:  Training cadets and members in the use of aviation GPS is indeed a useful aerospace education lesson.  Just as useful as teaching about steam gauges, sectional charts or other typical cadet AE class topics.   The bonus side of this grant is that, in addition to providing good classroom hands-on opportunities, it also helps improve our operational side.  Win-win.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 26, 2009, 07:03:28 PM
You could have bought less expensive units and equipped EVERY squadron in your wing with GPS for the cadets to use OR does every unit in OK wing already have a GPS ??? ???
RM

At the last non-profit I worked for, we got a $350k grant to re-pave our parking lot, add new parking spaces out back and make other streetscape improvements (exterior lighting, new sidewalks, etc.).  Could I think of a dozen other things I would have rather seen that $350k used for?  Absolutely.  Could other things have had more positive impact on those we served with that amount of money?  Quite likely, yes.  But the grant maker was giving this money for specific purposes, and our streetscape improvements were a need (though not necessarily our need number 1).  It however was the best match of our needs to the grant makers giving preferences.

When you're commander, you can determine what your funding priorities are and match those to grant makers' giving priorities.  However, to me, this sounds like a good use of a grant opportunity. 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Pylon ?  >:(
/quote]

Second:  Training cadets and members in the use of aviation GPS is indeed a useful aerospace education lesson.  Just as useful as teaching about steam gauges, sectional charts or other typical cadet AE class topics.   The bonus side of this grant is that, in addition to providing good classroom hands-on opportunities, it also helps improve our operational side.  Win-win.

When you're commander, you can determine what your funding priorities are and match those to grant makers' giving priorities.  However, to me, this sounds like a good use of a grant opportunity.

Well hopefully there's an "implementation" plan that gets all 300 wing cadets up in the planes for an hour or so to see exactly how it works over the grant funding period of 1 year (that is WHY they got the grant). 

BTW I'm looking strictly at the news release by the Aeronautical Commission that only lists the cadet training as the reason for the grant.  Perhaps all the squadron "Commanders" in OK wing need to be asking when their cadets will getting their Garmin orientation flight ;)  -- Isn't that what command is also about ???
RM

Pylon

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 26, 2009, 09:42:05 PMWell hopefully there's an "implementation" plan that gets all 300 wing cadets up in the planes for an hour or so to see exactly how it works over the grant funding period of 1 year (that is WHY they got the grant).

BTW I'm looking strictly at the news release by the Aeronautical Commission that only lists the cadet training as the reason for the grant.  Perhaps all the squadron "Commanders" in OK wing need to be asking when their cadets will getting their Garmin orientation flight ;)  -- Isn't that what command is also about ???
RM

A)  Do you have some reason to think that they're not going to use this grant appropriately?  I don't see any indication of that.

B)  There was no mention that the GPS training needed to be done in flight.

C)  There was no mention that the training needed to be accomplished within one year.  The XM Weather subscription might be for one year, but that doesn't limit their time-frame to complete the training.

D)  Can you not simply be happy for a Civil Air Patrol unit receiving funding for a useful item? 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Thrashed


Save the triangle thingy

RADIOMAN015

#9
Quote from: Pylon
A)  Do you have some reason to think that they're not going to use this grant appropriately?  I don't see any indication of that.

B)  There was no mention that the GPS training needed to be done in flight.

C)  There was no mention that the training needed to be accomplished within one year.  The XM Weather subscription might be for one year, but that doesn't limit their time-frame to complete the training.

D)  Can you not simply be happy for a Civil Air Patrol unit receiving funding for a useful item?
I'm skeptical about how this will be implemented to train the cadets (which is the reason why according to the press release CAP got the money).  As you stated, this is aviation grade equipment, so it is reasonable expectation that cadets would be oriented during actual flying session on how it operates & get a chance to press the various buttons etc.   Cadet funded orientation flight hours availability can sometimes be limited.  Got to wonder if the "flying club" boys would be willing to donate some flying time (member paid) to orient the cadets, since they got the (new whiz bang toy) equipment installed in their planes, if the funded budget side doesn't have enough money ??? >:D ;D

When you get grant money you use it for what the grantor (perceives?) is the primary reason for the request.  The sooner the better should be the objective (even if the grantor doesn't require it),  and IF it it were me even if the grantor doesn't require a report I would be sending them emails with pictures attached shows how many, when/where, etc. EVERY time we met the objective of the grant & thanking them again!!!

I think subsequent events over the next year or so will indicate to OK wing squadrons with cadets, how effectively this grant is in the 300 cadet personnel aerospace education program.   
RM

desertengineer1

#10
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 26, 2009, 09:42:05 PM

Well hopefully there's an "implementation" plan that gets all 300 wing cadets up in the planes for an hour or so to see exactly how it works over the grant funding period of 1 year (that is WHY they got the grant). 

BTW I'm looking strictly at the news release by the Aeronautical Commission that only lists the cadet training as the reason for the grant.  Perhaps all the squadron "Commanders" in OK wing need to be asking when their cadets will getting their Garmin orientation flight ;)  -- Isn't that what command is also about ???
RM

Radioman, this isn't cosher.  You should know better than this.

Oklahoma wing's relationship with state legislative leaders is a model for CAP.  I know of NO commander here who thinks of anything less than the mission or the members they serve. 

I am very sure the wing commander spends about 100 times more of his spare time working for his members than you have throwing public jabs from your keyboard.  At the very minimum, he and his staff cared enough for our operational and education needs to write and submit such an application. I can assure you this equipment is extremely welcome and will be used extensively for all purposes previosly mentioned.

Our DO took additional time to write an excellent response to your query.  He didn't have to do that. 

And you STILL want to throw rocks from behind the keyboard?

Are you kidding me???

What exactly are your accusations? 

I am extremely honored to have worked with these folks, and will not sit on a sideline to watch this kind of slamming.  I have not seen you working the extreme hours and endless weeks these folks have put in.  Nor am I aware of you taking any of the thankless Oklahoma Wing staff positions.

If you have an accusation, make it through appropriate channels. 

But I ask you to have a little professional respect in public forums.  Especially to folks I've personally seen put in extreme amounts of time for this organization.

Capt. B

desertengineer1

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 26, 2009, 11:26:58 PM
I'm skeptical about how this will be implemented to train the cadets (which is the reason why according to the press release CAP got the money).  As you stated, this is aviation grade equipment, so it is reasonable expectation that cadets would be oriented during actual flying session on how it operates & get a chance to press the various buttons etc.   Cadet funded orientation flight hours availability can sometimes be limited.  Got to wonder if the "flying club" boys would be willing to donate some flying time (member paid) to orient the cadets, since they got the (new whiz bang toy) equipment installed in their planes, if the funded budget side doesn't have enough money ??? >:D ;D

When you get grant money you use it for what the grantor (perceives?) is the primary reason for the request.  The sooner the better should be the objective (even if the grantor doesn't require it),  and IF it it were me even if the grantor doesn't require a report I would be sending them emails with pictures attached shows how many, when/where, etc. EVERY time we met the objective of the grant & thanking them again!!!

I think subsequent events over the next year or so will indicate to OK wing squadrons with cadets, how effectively this grant is in the 300 cadet personnel aerospace education program.   
RM

Situations like this is why we have good members throw up their hands every year and not renew membership.  I will go out on a limb here and guess that you are one of those members who show up to meetings and do nothing.  Classic wall-flower senior member.  They are asked to help with certain tasks (i.e. monthly reports, safety briefs, S-2 reports, etc..)... and then immediately sandbag it.  99% of my stress as a squadron commander was due to this because I was the one who ended up doing their tasks.

But it doesn't end there.  These are the VERY same members who show up at SAREX's and sit in a corner.  They'll drink coffee and talk good ole aviation stories, and have the nerve to be spectators - and just watch mission staff go at 100% throttle for the duration. 

And it always has the same pattern.  When these guys don't get put on a crew, or worse, get asked to do something other than flying the exact mission they want to do (note I said 'want', not what they need), they will be the first to openly complain about the "good ole boy flying club" or "the circle of shenanigans".

Honestly, I have little pity for these members when others who are more proactive in the program get on the flight schedule.  I'm happy to see it, actually. 

Radioman, I don't see your name on any of the Oklahoma Aeronautics Commission grant committees.  Neither do I see you working with any of the wing staff members until midnight or later on the night of wing staff meetings. 

Do you have anything better to do than accuse these good folks of shenigans on captalk?  Has your bag of cheesy poofs run out in between episodes of What Not to Wear?


RADIOMAN015

Quote from: desertengineer1 on September 27, 2009, 12:05:17 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015/quote]

Situations like this is why we have good members throw up their hands every year and not renew membership.  I will go out on a limb here and guess that you are one of those members who show up to meetings and do nothing. 

Radioman, I don't see your name on any of the Oklahoma Aeronautics Commission grant committees.  Neither do I see you working with any of the wing staff members until midnight or later on the night of wing staff meetings. 

Do you have anything better to do than accuse these good folks of shenigans on captalk?  Has your bag of cheesy poofs run out in between episodes of What Not to Wear?

I don't reside in OK, but I did travel through the state a few times in my fantastic military career.  My spouse actually got lost in the state when she & my cousin tried to find Geronimo's grave when they drove up from Witchita Falls Tx (where I did some school'en at the fabulous Shepard AFB) & ended up close to those big bad buffalos out in the field ;D 

I'm not accusing anyone of wrong doing.  Again you've got to look at the public press release referenced in the first posting.  IF it isn't correct than CAP should strongly consider going back to get a clarification published to show ALL of the uses for that equipment.   I'd be VERY careful when grant money is involved, ensuring there's a complete understanding by the public of what it is accomplishing.  Remember there's always the possibility that someone may look at this a year down the road (based upon that press release) and draw the wrong conclusion.  No need to get embarassed IF you can clear up a misconceptions immediately.   

I think it is great that your wing was able to get money.  Especially in these very trying times for most states' budgets where CAP has lost funding support  -- definitely not gained.

I'm thinking about transferring into the 'swivel chair patrol" until than I do try to help my unit & wing as my time permits.  I also try not to snack while typing MY OPINIONS on CAPTALK (wow I'm getting hungry just thinking about it).

Until the next time ----  over & out! ;D
RM

desertengineer1

#13
Quote from: RADIOMAN015/quote]

I don't reside in OK, but I did travel through the state a few times in my fantastic military career.  My spouse actually got lost in the state when she & my cousin tried to find Geronimo's grave when they drove up from Witchita Falls Tx (where I did some school'en at the fabulous Shepard AFB) & ended up close to those big bad buffalos out in the field ;D 

I'm not accusing anyone of wrong doing.  Again you've got to look at the public press release referenced in the first posting.  IF it isn't correct than CAP should strongly consider going back to get a clarification published to show ALL of the uses for that equipment.   I'd be VERY careful when grant money is involved, ensuring there's a complete understanding by the public of what it is accomplishing.  Remember there's always the possibility that someone may look at this a year down the road (based upon that press release) and draw the wrong conclusion.  No need to get embarassed IF you can clear up a misconceptions immediately.   

I think it is great that your wing was able to get money.  Especially in these very trying times for most states' budgets where CAP has lost funding support  -- definitely not gained.

I'm thinking about transferring into the 'swivel chair patrol" until than I do try to help my unit & wing as my time permits.  I also try not to snack while typing MY OPINIONS on CAPTALK (wow I'm getting hungry just thinking about it).

Until the next time ----  over & out! ;D
RM

I think Ed posted a great response to your query.  The text of the grant is also straight forward.  Not sure what else you are trying to do, other than just stir up distrust and controversy.  I can join with the others to promise you that the equipment will be well utilized in the requirements of the grant and more.

It's obvious you're not satisfied with any of the responses to your posts.

If you have a concern, I recommend you take it up directly with your wing chain of command.  Col Castle may be happy to address your concerns directly.  But I recommend going through your chain first.

After continued responses (to which we really didn't have to do) to your concerns, why do you continue to make elusive accusations?  Maybe I shouldn't even be responding to them, but I have high respect for what these folks have done and am not the type to sit back and let them get beat up.

If you don't like another wing getting grant money, you might consider spending this captalk time by helping your wing or unit write similar grant applications of your own.  Who knows, maybe they will give you money too.

At least you'll have a little more credibility than right now.


RADIOMAN015

Quote from: desertengineer1 on September 27, 2009, 01:17:32 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015/quote]


I think Ed posted a great response to your query.  The text of the grant is also straight forward.  Not sure what else you are trying to do, other than just stir up distrust and controversy.  I can join with the others to promise you that the equipment will be well utilized in the requirements of the grant and more.

It's obvious you're not satisfied with any of the responses to your posts.

After continued responses (to which we really didn't have to do) to your concerns, why do you continue to make elusive accusations?  Maybe I shouldn't even be responding to them, but I have high respect for what these folks have done and am not the type to sit back and let them get beat up.

If you don't like another wing getting grant money, you might consider spending this captalk time by helping your wing or unit write similar grant applications of your own.  Who knows, maybe they will give you money too.

At least you'll have a little more credibility than right now.

Hmmmm, I'd just refer everyone on this subject back to the original post which announced this:

http://okc.biz/article/09-24-2009/Oklahoma_Aeronautics_Commission_approves_education_funding.aspx

Here's the actually article in case it disappears from the website:  ................"The Oklahoma Wing of the Civil Air Patrol was awarded a $10,849 aviation education contract to purchase five Garmin Global Positioning System receivers and a one-year subscription to the XM Aviation weather service. The GPS receivers and the subscription will be used as part of the Civil Air Patrol's GPS Training program. Approximately 300 cadets from 6th through 12th grade will receive the training........" 

The Commission didn't pull that information out of the air, it was likely provided in the narrative from your wing.  Perhaps that specific sentence swayed the commission to grant CAP that money for the cadet training in lieu of other competing submissions.  Again to emphasize, it sure as heck wasn't provided for "flying club" safety requirements. >:D

So here's the simple challenge for your wing -- Meet the spirt of what the Commission stated in their press release.  Establish an "aggressive" (meaning it's the current group of cadets in the program that get the training)  cadet training/orientation in flight GPS schedule once you get the equipment installed & post it to your website.  I'm sure there's many members in OK that are interested to see if the cadets were just used as pawns to get this grant OR if your wing is really going to provide "timely" (within a year) training to the cadets >:(        Pretty simple request.  I think subsequent events over the next year or so will determine WHO really is credible in this discussion.  Now surely no one can argue about that can they? 

RM 

flyguy06

This is none of my business but I think he is trying to say  he hopes they use it for the cadets and the cadets only as opposed to using for example SM's doing ES training.

Again, none of my business. i am glad for OK I hope the cadets learn a lot from it. Just thought I'd try andhelp the communication process.  ;D

desertengineer1

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 27, 2009, 12:34:46 PM
This is none of my business but I think he is trying to say  he hopes they use it for the cadets and the cadets only as opposed to using for example SM's doing ES training.

Again, none of my business. i am glad for OK I hope the cadets learn a lot from it. Just thought I'd try andhelp the communication process.  ;D

I think everyone who attempted a reply has answered that - yes, we will definately be using it for both cadet and SM training and tasks.  Will we get 5 hours of training on every cadet on the roster?  Probably not.  But to use that as a reason for accusing the wing of grant shenanigans is just asinine.  The thread has now become nothing more than someone with nothing better to do than be a pain.  Members attempted to answer the query because they really care about what they are doing, and wanted to correct any misperceptions that may have arisen.  I think we have done that.

If anyone has additional concerns, PM me and I will connect you to a member of wing staff who has ADCON.

I'm done with this conversation. 

Short Field

The GARMIN 396 is a portable GPS that is well suited for used in the classroom.  The simulator mode allows you fly a mission with all inputs, etc, while sitting at a desk.  I also use mine while out on ground teams.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
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