CAP Former Cadets Successes & Failures

[RADIOMAN015]

Interestingly CAP's "Volunteer" magazine seems to be reaching out to former cadets that have been successful & are involved in newsworthy activities.

I think it's great that they are doing this.  Bet there's many former cadets (including myself) who currently have or have had successful military and/or civilian careers, that of course remain unpublished/unrecognized.

HOWEVER, even from my cadet days (over 30 years ago) I've got to wonder what ever happend to some of the cadets in the program (both those that were in cadet leadership roles above me & those that were my subordinates).   

In my current position, one of my duties is to pre screen (personal interview) all job applicants for our warehouse/distribution center operations.  Awhile back I had an approx 20 year old applicant come in and listed Civil Air Patrol as an activity he had pariticpated in.   During the interview process (I did not reveal I was in CAP), I probed what he had accomplished while in the program - he had not gone very far in the program.  He talked highly about his squadron commander & basically infered that in retrospect he should have stayed in the program.

Got to wonder how many other cadets we get that drop out of the program, years later reflect on the wrong turns they made in life, including dropping out of the cadet program
RM         

[RiverAux]

Well, almost every single cadet drops out of the program before completing it (obtaining a Spaatz). 

[Major Carrales]

Well, almost every single cadet drops out of the program before completing it (obtaining a Spaatz).

This is true, because of this I try to make everyone's service as a CAP cadet meaningful.  From the one that does "one year" to the one that completes the program (of which I only know one personally from our area).

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, almost every single cadet drops out of the program before completing it (obtaining a Spaatz).

The Mitchell is considered, at least by most of us, as "Completing" the cadet program.  The rest of the awards are for going beyond the basic minimums of the cadet program.

But... I get your rhetorical point!

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'd like to see a comprehensive listing of former cadets and their objective achievements.  Maybe a questionaire circulated nation wide.

Questions like:

-  How far did you get in the cadet program... highest achievement?

-  College attended?  Degrees earned?

-  Highest military rank achieved?

-  Present position?

-  Awards and honors earned?

-  Lowest security level prison you have been housed in?

-  Parole/probation/work release/drug rehab attempts/honor grad from Anger Management class?

[Eclipse]

The Mitchell is considered, at least by most of us, as "Completing" the cadet program.

By whom?

The Mitchell is the mid-point, no more, no less. 

Your statement smacks of former double-diamonds who blew Spaatz and still talk about how they "really" completed the program.

-  Lowest security level prison you have been housed in?

-  Parole/probation/work release/drug rehab attempts/honor grad from Anger Management class?

Heh...

[Major Carrales]

The Mitchell is considered, at least by most of us, as "Completing" the cadet program.

By whom?

The Mitchell is the mid-point, no more, no less. 

Your statement smacks of former double-diamonds who blew Spaatz and still talk about how they "really" completed the program.

-  Lowest security level prison you have been housed in?

-  Parole/probation/work release/drug rehab attempts/honor grad from Anger Management class?

Heh...

Kach is correct, in my area completing the Mictchell is about as far as people go locally (actually...Mary Fiek, C/SrA).  Since it is the point by which advanced rank is given in the military, most strive for this and are off to the Military.

Those that don't go off to the military are either off to College (and unable to continue...or in an unfamiliar area where CAP is fundamentally different) or on to life, where work or family means CAP is on home (cadet Career is over)

Eclipse, we have a classic case of "book" experiences (Mitchell is actually the middle) and real world pragmatism (Mitchell is considered circumstantially) the end. 

[Ned]

FWIW, I did the math a few years ago (after going to the Library of Congress and pulling every available Report to Congress since 1947), and there are nearly one million former cadets lurking out there, somewhere.

Statistically, most of them are still alive.

Of course, most did a year or less and may not feel very "attached" to the CP.  Or any more than their high school Chess Club.   

But NHQ is working on establishing a comprehensive Cadet Alumni Association to help identify our former cadets and allow them to network a bit and be recognized.

Indeed, I was just out at the Air Force Academy last month talking to the professionals at the Association of Graduates on how we might stand it up.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, crummy job title)

[RiverAux]

Even if we say that the Mitchell represents the completion of the CAP program, that still means that 85% failed to complete it.  (According to the knowledgebase). 

I've always been in favor of some sort of rigorous evaluation of most of our programs to see how effective they are.  It would be somewhat difficult for the cadet program in particular since you would have to account for the widely varying time spent in the program by cadets (months to almost a decade). 

[Major Carrales]

Even if we say that the Mitchell represents the completion of the CAP program, that still means that 85% failed to complete it.  (According to the knowledgebase). 

I've always been in favor of some sort of rigorous evaluation of most of our programs to see how effective they are.  It would be somewhat difficult for the cadet program in particular since you would have to account for the widely varying time spent in the program by cadets (months to almost a decade).

Impossible...there are cadets that get on the role and then never show up to a meeting.  You would label that as a "failure" blame some well meaning people for that.

I would say that, out of 10 cadets, 1 may make it to Spaatz, 2 Mitchell, 3 Wright Bros. and 4 are "airmen/airmen basics for life."

[RiverAux]

10% of cadets are getting the Spaatz?   You must be in the Brazilian CAP cause thats not whats happening in the US where it is less than 1%.   Even if you want to play the "active" vs "inactive" game, its no where near 10%. 

I didn't say a cadet was a failure if they didn't reach some specified point or that CAP has failed if every cadet doesn't reach some point.  I was just pointing out the fact that most of our cadets don't go as far as the cadet program allows.  I don't think that would ever be possible anyway. 

[Major Carrales]

10% of cadets are getting the Spaatz?   You must be in the Brazilian CAP cause thats not whats happening in the US where it is less than 1%.   Even if you want to play the "active" vs "inactive" game, its no where near 10%. 

I didn't say a cadet was a failure if they didn't reach some specified point or that CAP has failed if every cadet doesn't reach some point.  I was just pointing out the fact that most of our cadets don't go as far as the cadet program allows.  I don't think that would ever be possible anyway.

Oh, I forgot you were a stats junkie. 

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, we have a classic case of "book" experiences (Mitchell is actually the middle) and real world pragmatism (Mitchell is considered circumstantially) the end.

Seriously, who considers it the "end".

I've never heard that in my AOR - many consider it a "goal before quitting", since its the last point at which there is practical, outside CAP benefit, but considering the Mitchell the "end" is like saying First Class Scout is the practical end of the BSA because its the point you can join the Leadership Corps (or was BITD).

I don't think anyone, or at least very few, cadets leave CAP as Mitchells thinking they've completed anything.  To perpetuate this idea is just lowering the bar.

[RiverAux]

I think the issue that the original poster was getting at was the amount of exposure to the cadet program that it takes to have a positive impact on a cadet's life.    I don't think that can be linked to a particular achievement.  Obviously, a cadet who only sticks around for a few months won't have really gotten anything from the program.  But, I would hope that a cadet who has been in for at least 12-24 months has learned a lot that can help them later in life.   

[Major Carrales]

Eclipse, we have a classic case of "book" experiences (Mitchell is actually the middle) and real world pragmatism (Mitchell is considered circumstantially) the end.

Seriously, who considers it the "end".

I've never heard that in my AOR - many consider it a "goal before quitting", since its the last point at which there is practical, outside CAP benefit, but considering the Mitchell the "end" is like saying First Class Scout is the practical end of the BSA because its the point you can join the Leadership Corps (or was BITD).

I don't think anyone, or at least very few, cadets leave CAP as Mitchells thinking they've completed anything.  To perpetuate this idea is just lowering the bar.

No one is perpetuating anything...rather that is how it works in practice.  Now, demonstrate higher numbers going on the Spaatz and you can claim otherwise.

Not all of us can exist in an area where CAP has existed in strength for decades. 

[PHall]

The Mitchell is considered, at least by most of us, as "Completing" the cadet program.

By whom?

The Mitchell is the mid-point, no more, no less. 

Your statement smacks of former double-diamonds who blew Spaatz and still talk about how they "really" completed the program.

Depends on when you were in the program. Until the early 60's, the Certificate of Proficiency, which became the Mitchell Award in the "new" program, was the highest you could go in the program.

And BTW, how far did YOU get in the program?

[Eclipse]

I'll have Level 4 completed next week after RSC.

Though how far any one person gets in the program is irrelevant to the discussion of what "completing" it is.

Many Senior make the argument Level 4 is the "completion" of the program because its the last level where you get any grade with it. 

That's not how it works.  If you don't make Level 5, you didn't complete the program.

[RiverAux]

I don't think that you can say that senior members have or have not "completed" the program since there isn't an actual senior member program in the same way there is a cadet program.  The cadet program is much more stand alone than the senior PD program which is focused on developing CAP leaders.  There is no requirement that seniors advance in this program in the way that cadets are required to advance in the cadet program.   

[Major Carrales]

I'll have Level 4 completed next week after RSC.

Though how far any one person gets in the program is irrelevant to the discussion of what "completing" it is.

Many Senior make the argument Level 4 is the "completion" of the program because its the last level where you get any grade with it. 

That's not how it works.  If you don't make Level 5, you didn't complete the program.

To me, "completing" the program as a Senior involves being active.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The Mitchell is considered, at least by most of us, as "Completing" the cadet program.

By whom?

The Mitchell is the mid-point, no more, no less. 

Your statement smacks of former double-diamonds who blew Spaatz and still talk about how they "really" completed the program.

-  Lowest security level prison you have been housed in?

-  Parole/probation/work release/drug rehab attempts/honor grad from Anger Management class?

Heh...

Well, I was never a DD, and I did not "Blow" Spaatz, since I never even approached it.

You see, Back in the Day there was this thing called a "Draft."  When you hit 18, you did not have the luxury of hanging out and trying for Spaatz.  If you did not make a decision about the military, the Selective Service System would make it for you.

Most cadets get the Spaatz around 19-20 years old.  I was 19 when I reached the sunny shores of South Vietnam.  I turned 20 in Da Nang, happy to spend my birthday back in the rear with the gear.

[heliodoc]

 

To the above posts who really cares?

I personally was a double diamond and kid I know completed his Spaatz in approx 1980 is now a MX officer for the USAF hanging in Qatar as we speak... He pretty level headed and asked what in tarnation what I was doing in CAP.... he grew and out of CAP and could return

PLENTY O' ol cadets out there who completed something....me tooo!!

We all completed something.

What is CAP?? A foot race ?? Plenty o Spaatz cadets probably aren't all looking back at CAP and alot are

Who cares??

OH and thanks John, for your service, some of ALSO went on the military like you, got lucky and did not get drafted.....we still all wore the uniform and some of are former cadets in CAP who saw that the awards in CAP are pretty good BUT won't really get you a cup of coffee anywhere in my neighborhood and I wasn't going to wave my Earhart around to get ahead of other CAPers who signed on at the same time I did second time around.

Hey, but to each their own in CAP maybe there ought to be a Congresional mandated study to see how many successes and failures as to the cadet program and also to see how many former cadets return as seniors after say, let's say 25 to 30 yrs, and see what has or has NOT changed!!!

[Major Carrales]

It is more important to me for a cadet to have had a meaningful time in CAP be it 1, 2 or 3 years.

I count a success those time when a contributing adult members of society sees a modern CAP cadet and feels like that made a difference...that they fondly remember CAP.  I count a failure all those that feel it was a waste of time because of the politics, raw ambition and malaise that sometime manifests itself in CAP.

I pray for the former and condemn the latter.

[heliodoc]

Soo do I, Sparky

But there are folks out there as cadets now years later and saw the merit in the program and there are others such as I, second time around, saw some improvements.

But there are STILL problems such as the 39-1 debacle, ICL's that "hold weight" and many CAPers looking for the bling, lack of standardization in the G1000 program

Good program after 60 years..........STILL LOT of room for improvement in this organization to make it "more memorable!"

[Always Ready]

Two years ago, I attended a college out of state for my freshman year. I was surprised to find two other people on my floor in my dorm were former cadets. It was funny that we all connected with each other within a week of being at school. We didn't know each other before going to school together, but we remain friends. All three of us obtained the Mitchell Award, but only one of us was still in CAP (me and as a SM). We talked about our experiences, which were mostly good, what we had accomplished (one was a Hawk Mountain grad, the other went to NCC), and why they quit. We still talk through Facebook. Having a common experience (CAP) helped us connect and ease our transition into college life.

For me, the Mitchell Award does not mark the completion of the Cadet Program, but it shows the former cadet succeeded in the program. Just like in school, you don't need to be in the top 10% or even 50% of your class in order to graduate. As a mentor to cadets, I consider any cadet that gains something from the program a success in general. I try to give them back to their parents better than I found them. Completing the milestone awards, going to NCSAs, etc. are just icing on the cake.

Ned: I'm glad to hear that NHQ is working on establishing Cadet Alumni Association. You guys are doing some great work!

[PHall]

I'll have Level 4 completed next week after RSC.

Though how far any one person gets in the program is irrelevant to the discussion of what "completing" it is.

Many Senior make the argument Level 4 is the "completion" of the program because its the last level where you get any grade with it. 

That's not how it works.  If you don't make Level 5, you didn't complete the program.

Nice try, but we're talking about the cadet program here.

[Eclipse]

I'll have Level 4 completed next week after RSC.

Though how far any one person gets in the program is irrelevant to the discussion of what "completing" it is.

Many Senior make the argument Level 4 is the "completion" of the program because its the last level where you get any grade with it. 

That's not how it works.  If you don't make Level 5, you didn't complete the program.

Nice try, but we're talking about the cadet program here.

Yes, and how far any one person in particular makes it through the cadet program is irrelevant to any excuses or internal rationalization for someone else not completing the program, especially if  based on some mis-guided notion that Mitchell, Eaker, or "other" is "really" the completion of the program.

What they did in the 60's is also irrelevant - they used to have a Falcon award, too.

Spaatz completes the cadet program.

Wilson completes the Senior program.

Anything else, even if it meets the member personal goals or needs, is a DNF.

[Flying Pig]

Uhhhhhhh.....its a youth organization.  I think whats more important is what you do after, not what CADET rank you earned.

[AlphaSigOU]

Uhhhhhhh.....its a youth organization.  I think whats more important is what you do after, not what CADET rank you earned.

Exactimundo! While some of my contemporaries in the cadet program completed all 15 achievements (back then) or earned the Spaatz I topped off my cadet career with the Earhart and a single diamond (cadet major) on my shoulderboards before enlisting in the Air Force. Does it make me any less of an individual because 'I didn't finish what I'd started'? NO! Do I look down on my fellow senior members who only sport a Mitchell or lesser achievement on their ribbon rack? NO!

It ain't the blingage you sport... it's the lessons you learn in leadership and in aerospace education that makes you a better person.

[BillB]

PHall.  The Cadet COP wasn't in reality the highest cadet achievement. There were three achievements past the COP which earned a clasp on the cadet COP.  Jack Sorenson told me that the three old achievements equaled the Earhart (and now Fike) and Spaatz awards. The new 1960's program followed the old program in total number of achievements a cadet could complete. The percentages of cadets that completed the COP and earned the three clasps is roughly the same percentages that earn the Spaatz. Most cadets earned the COP and like todays Mitchell, dropped out of didn't progress in the program. The main difference between the old program and the current program, promotions were not tied to completing an achievement. You could be promoted or demoted by the Squadron Commander.

[AlphaSigOU]

PHall.  The Cadet COP wasn't in reality the highest cadet achievement. There were three achievements past the COP which earned a clasp on the cadet COP.  Jack Sorenson told me that the three old achievements equaled the Earhart (and now Fike) and Spaatz awards. The new 1960's program followed the old program in total number of achievements a cadet could complete. The percentages of cadets that completed the COP and earned the three clasps is roughly the same percentages that earn the Spaatz. Most cadets earned the COP and like todays Mitchell, dropped out of didn't progress in the program. The main difference between the old program and the current program, promotions were not tied to completing an achievement. You could be promoted or demoted by the Squadron Commander.

You mean Eaker? Feik is for completion of achievement 3.

[PA Guy]

PHall.  The Cadet COP wasn't in reality the highest cadet achievement. There were three achievements past the COP which earned a clasp on the cadet COP.  Jack Sorenson told me that the three old achievements equaled the Earhart (and now Fike) and Spaatz awards. The new 1960's program followed the old program in total number of achievements a cadet could complete. The percentages of cadets that completed the COP and earned the three clasps is roughly the same percentages that earn the Spaatz. Most cadets earned the COP and like todays Mitchell, dropped out of didn't progress in the program. The main difference between the old program and the current program, promotions were not tied to completing an achievement. You could be promoted or demoted by the Squadron Commander.

There was really not much incentive to complete the additional achievements.  Cadets had to contend with the Manning Table which allotted grade based on the size of the sqdn.  For instance, to be a C/Maj one not only had to complete the training but have 50 cadets in the sqdn and the one slot for a C/Maj had to be open.  C/Maj was also the highest cadet grade.  C/Lt Col and C/Col were temporary grades used only at encampments.  As a cadet I never saw a C/Maj and maybe 1 C/Cpt.

[heliodoc]

OMG!!

I am suprised that there are not more cadet suicides ''cuz they did not "complete" the cadet program by getting to the Spaatz

I can see it now, hehehehehe, cadets walking around calling themselves failures for not completing the "program"

Like pointed out earlier....its what you learn and how you apply it and not how much bling one can accumulate

SHHEEEESH

[Eclipse]

There's a difference between being a "failure", and not completing the program.

I know any number of cadets with "only" pips or a single diamond who simply ran out of time (or steam), that are assets to the program and gained a lot from it.

But starting to say things like ..."Mitchell is the defacto completion..." sets a bad precedent akin to the "Chief Experience").

[JohnKachenmeister]

Maybe I didn't explain myself right.

Question:  What is the point of the Spaatz?  To document "Success" or to document "Excellence?"

If it documents merely success, and everyone else is a failure, it loses a lot of its meaning.

If it documents excellence, it is more worthy of honor. 

The Sapaatz honors successful cadets who have the drive and the smarts to go a few extra miles.  It is for those who are not satisfied with being "Successful" in terms of meeting minimums, but for those who want to stand out.

For most of us, Mitchell equals success.  Earhart equals real good, and Spaatz equals exceptional.

But in ANY case, it is a youth program.  And sometimes a Mitchell cadet can out-achieve a Spaatzoid.  Sometimes a Mitchell cadet is a prison guard, and sometimes a Spaatz cadet is the prisoner.  Sometimes former cadets murder only their ex-girlfriends and are quickly forgotten, and sometimes they murder the president and are remembered forever.

It is just a starting point in the game of life.  It is simply what cards get dealt out before the first roll of the dice.  Where the game token goes is up to the player from then on!

[Stonewall]

When I first read the title of this thread I thought it was more in regards to post-CAP.  Former cadets and their successes as adults or lack there of.

In that regards, I have a few stories that represent both sides.  More successes than failures, but that's probably because we tend to detach ourselves from those who start down the path that leads to trouble.

I like to think that "success" isn't defined as someone doing something extraordinary, like Eric Boe.  Obviously he's a "success" as he can be considered a hero of sorts.  I've always thought astronauts were kind of hero-like.  I think "success" can be measured by a lot of things in each person's life and most are meassured differently.  Say, for instance, if someone joins the military, success can be measured by the rank they achieve.  But saying someone is enlisted vs. officer does not automatically say that the officer is more successfull than the enlisted guy.

Thoughts on this type of success?

:redx:

[JohnKachenmeister]

When I first read the title of this thread I thought it was more in regards to post-CAP.  Former cadets and their successes as adults or lack there of.

In that regards, I have a few stories that represent both sides.  More successes than failures, but that's probably because we tend to detach ourselves from those who start down the path that leads to trouble.

I like to think that "success" isn't defined as someone doing something extraordinary, like Eric Boe.  Obviously he's a "success" as he can be considered a hero of sorts.  I've always thought astronauts were kind of hero-like.  I think "success" can be measured by a lot of things in each person's life and most are meassured differently.  Say, for instance, if someone joins the military, success can be measured by the rank they achieve.  But saying someone is enlisted vs. officer does not automatically say that the officer is more successfull than the enlisted guy.

Thoughts on this type of success?

:redx:

"Success" is defined by the individual. 

What are a person's life goals?  Did the person achieve them?

Understand that life's goals are subject to change without notice.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Spaatz completes the cadet program.

Wilson completes the Senior program.

Anything else, even if it meets the member personal goals or needs, is a DNF.

I disagree. There is no "completion." Yeah, there's 16 achievements and five phases. But the training isn't why we're here. It's emergency services, aerospace education and the cadet program, to include all its facets, not just completion of achievements. Many of our members don't finish Phase 3 -- so what? If they're completing the mission, it shouldn't matter what bling they wear on their chest or pockets. Much of that bling gets obnoxious, anyway. Besides, it's irrelevant to much of our operational readiness and execution.

[Eclipse]

Besides, it's irrelevant to much of our operational readiness and execution.

Ah!

The Great Fallacy! 

[John Young]

I've worked with a number Spaatz cadets that I would define as successful and a number that I would define as unsuccessful. The same goes with any other level within the program.

The "level of progression" is not the definitive measure of achievement or success in the program, what that cadet does within the program and what that cadet does after the program is the definitive measure.

Spaatz is an honor and an impressive achievement, but it speaks more to priorities and drive than anything else.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Besides, it's irrelevant to much of our operational readiness and execution.

Ah!

The Great Fallacy!

You don't have to be a light colonel to be an incident commander. Heck, there are many company grade officers who, as ICs, tell oak leaves where to fly and pound the ground. Rank does NOT denote responsibility, and training to achieve grade is so detached from ops that the two only meet when someone first joins CAP. Find a way to put the two together, and maybe rank and grade (and "professional development" training) will mean more in CAP.

[Eclipse]

Its not about "rank" its about leadership, and understanding the fundamentals of how CAP works (and doesn't).  If you believe that grade is the only reason PD is important, you are sadly mistaken and have been ill-served by your leaders who's job it was to help you understand CAP.

For every 1 member who chooses to hyper-specialize and is successful, I can show you 10 who failed or are poor performers because they can't be bothered to do anything but tasks directly related their hyper-specialty.

These members whine like toddlers when you ask them to do anything related to keeping the doors open, the planes flying, and their personal qualifications validated, and then are the first to complain when the doors close behind them, "their" plane is moved, or their quals dried up because there was no one to do the paperwork.

Without people taking the time to get educated and experienced in the running of the corporation and the fostering of the general membership, there is no CAP.  Our lack of intestinal fortitude in regards to expectations for PD is the exact reason we are in the position we are in.

Many of our Commanders and other leaders have never cracked a reg, attended an SLS/CLC, nor have they any reason to believe these are important.  Then we all wonder why uniforms, policies, and other important but seemingly basic aspects of the program are like rocket science.

In some cases it might as well be because there is literally a complete absence of the knowledge or even the awareness of the "problem".

PD isn't parallel to or instead of operational ability, it is mission-critical to it.  Without the Commanders and staff officers filling in the blanks between missions...wait for it...THERE ARE NO MISSIONS.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Grade is NOT the only reason professional development is important. I get that. But my point is not that the senior member training program or the cadet program are irrelevant. It's that outside of meeting the minimum PD criteria to involve oneself in ES (Curry achievement, Level I), there are few (if any) grade requirements for ES roles. If you choose to use the ES specialty tracks for promotion, that's great, but many of us didn't use them to advance through Levels 2 and 3. Some people can put ES in a grotto and operate without it in CAP (seems like a lot of cadet squadrons are like that). You can make it through Level V without much ES exposure. Heck, you can get a Spaatz Award without it.

I disagree that it's because some commanders haven't cracked the regs that policies as simple as uniform wear are disregarded. If anything, the indoctrination of CAP policies and procedures should happen before Level I is finished, and that's a major failing of the senior member training program. It isn't until Level II that the ECI AFIADL HQ AU A4/6 Course 13 is introduced, and by then, you have people wearing officer grade who in some cases haven't the slightest clue.. and by then, it's too late -- the habits have been formed. Course 13 should be introduced as part of Level I, not only to properly introduce members to CAP, but to backstop local enforcement of policy (or countermand nonenforcement).

Professional development has little to do with who is appointed to staff positions to sign off on paperwork. A brand-new butterbar can be named a squadron commander (UCC be [darn]ed, he's an automatic first lieutenant). My last unit's ES guy is an IC, but is a captain, and my wing has at least one first lieutenant on its IC roster. As much as we'd like to tie the two together, it doesn't work that way right now.

Point is, it's whomever is in a position of authority who can sign off on something, and it comes back to how grade is earned in CAP (by professional development training, not by position or duty). It's a commander's butt in a sling if he's pencil-whipping people through. That's where integrity comes in, and for some, it's apparently still a problem... if it wasn't, we wouldn't have by-invitation-only SAREVALs.

[Rotorhead]

Uhhhhhhh.....its a youth organization.  I think whats more important is what you do after, not what CADET rank you earned.

What is a youth organization? Civil Air Patrol?

That's gonna come as a big surprise to the members of my Senior squadron.

[RedFox24]

Interesting topic........

My comments and opinions......

Civil Air Patrol is 1/3 a youth organization:  The Cadet Program.

Most (I would say 90% based on MY experience) cadets don't join CAP to "complete" anything.  They join to have fun, be with their friends, wear a uniform, get plane rides and look "military".  After they are in the program a while, attend an encampment and get some life direction on what they want to do in life, they then either quit or make getting the Mitchell and other awards a priority.  Very few look upon the Triple Diamond Club as anything to obtain. 

Most former cadets that I am aware of, had in my squadron(s) etc so forth whom "DNF" by some of your standards were not interested in the military or emergency services and are very successful business men and women.  And some are in jail...........Some joined the Air Force, Army, Marines and Navy.  Some did their commitment and got out, and did not come back to CAP.  Some did. 

I was a Double Diamond, who 1) joined CAP because I wanted to have fun, fly in planes, wear a uniform and get to go do neat stuff on military bases, 2) got my Mitchell because of what it would get me if I had joined the Air Force (plan that changed as I saw that what not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life) 3) didn't care squat about much else of the other milestone awards 4) took the Spaatz a few days before my 21st and didn't pass and didn't much care one way or the other 5) turned senior and stuck around because CAP was fun (not so much true anymore) and 6)  commanded a squadron and group because I wanted to see cadets have fun and grow with the experience that CAP could bring them in what ever field they saw as their life's work. 

Most seniors who were not cadets don't understand that the cadet program is not only educational (PD) but FUN and work their butts off to kill any fun (where I think NHQ is headed).  The others think ES is the only reason to have CAP and run cadets off also (again where the program is headed).  Some stupidly believe we are a military organization.  Some think we are the local "Rescue Rickey" volunteer homeland insecurity department or what ever.  Sadly my experience is that most seniors who were not cadets don't get what being a cadet was and is all about. Do we need these seniors, yes, but they need to be trained and not by PowerPoint. 

So based on comments here on this thread, as a former cadet who only got his Lt Col, I am a failure and a DNF.  So be it.............

If completing Level 5 is considered "finishing" the CAP senior program, then I will not finish that either.  I have no current desire to waste my time on such for just having more junk to hang on the wall or pin on my shirt.  I also don't want to associate with those who only see getting more ribbons and such as the be all to end all of any program.  That is what is wrong with many of our organizations: Out for ones own self promotion and interest. 

There are plenty of Three Diamonds and Level 5 "finishes" in the wing, region and NHQ who are total failures as leaders in this organization.  But if that is the only measure of success then we have a really misguided sense of what constitutes achievement and we deserve the leaders and "successes" we get. 

Also there is not a DNF in a volunteer organization, you un-volunteer.  Which is happening a lot in CAP as of late.  Shouldn't that tell us something?


Also John, Thank You for your service to this country and welcome home! :clap:

[BuckeyeDEJ]

There are plenty of Three Diamonds and Level 5 "finishes" in the wing, region and NHQ who are total failures as leaders in this organization.  But if that is the only measure of success then we have a really misguided sense of what constitutes achievement and we deserve the leaders and "successes" we get. 

It's because those finishes are based on what these people get out of books, but not necessarily true leadership and management ability. If CAP had officer fitness reports tied to promotions and awards, we wouldn't see so many Gill Robb Wilsons, would we? And we'd probably see a lot more former military folks in leadership positions.

[Flying Pig]

Uhhhhhhh.....its a youth organization.  I think whats more important is what you do after, not what CADET rank you earned.

What is a youth organization? Civil Air Patrol?

That's gonna come as a big surprise to the members of my Senior squadron.

I was talking about  the earlier posts where people were refering to the cadet ranks they had earned.

[Ned]

Uhhhhhhh.....its a youth organization.  I think whats more important is what you do after, not what CADET rank you earned.

What is a youth organization? Civil Air Patrol?

That's gonna come as a big surprise to the members of my Senior squadron.

I don't think they will be surprised to learn that the cadet program is the largest part of CAP in terms of personnel involved and manhours expended.

After all, I'll bet they have done more than their share of supporting o-rides and things like encampment.

Thank them for me.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, Crummy job title)

[Johnny Yuma]

The suggestion that completion of the milestone awards is an indication of one's success or failure touches a nerve with me.

WIWAC we had a kid who wasn't allowed to get his Mitchell thanks to an [censored] of a unit commander who had it in for the kid. Despite this cadet's "failure" he managed to enlist in the U.S. Army, complete flight school and is now a W-5 IP flying Chinooks somewhere downrange.

Then we have a Spaatz cadet (NEC took the award from him) sitting on death row in a Texas prison with his ex-girlfriend doing life.

Ain't Karma something?

Language.  Can still tell what word it was. - MIKE

[JohnKachenmeister]

And... his ex-girlfriend who did the murder with him was a former Earhart Cadet!

[AlphaSigOU]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

[James Shaw]

I personally think that the measure of success in this or any other program is not based on the program or what level they achieved. I believe it is bassed on what the individual personally achieved for themselves that matters.

It may be the lessons they learn from the program that help them achieve. Does not matter if they were in for 10 years or 10 days. What did it do for them. Are they a better person is the real question for success and failure.

[Flying Pig]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

If your sitting on death row, your never eligible for parole.  Whats the situation with those two?  Never heard of it.

[Major Carrales]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

If your sitting on death row, your never eligible for parole.  Whats the situation with those two?  Never heard of it.

Really?  I mean they even made a movie about it that comes out on Lifetime (I know this because my wife pointed it out to me).

Just google "Texas cadet," the first item will be the Texas Cadet Programs webpage, followed by plenty of details.

[JohnKachenmeister]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

If your sitting on death row, your never eligible for parole.  Whats the situation with those two?  Never heard of it.

They got their 15 minutes of fame back in the 1990's, I think.  Both were CAP cadets, and both were accepted to military academies, him to the AF, and her to the Naval Academy.  During a leave, he had a fling with a pretty blonde Texas sweetheart, and somehow his main midship-person squeeze found out about it.

They decided the only way to prove his undying love for her was for him to murder the blonde fling.  They did, and they got caught, and now they are working off their demerits.

[Flying Pig]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

If your sitting on death row, your never eligible for parole.  Whats the situation with those two?  Never heard of it.

Really? I mean they even made a movie about it that comes out on Lifetime (I know this because my wife pointed it out to me).

Just google "Texas cadet," the first item will be the Texas Cadet Programs webpage, followed by plenty of details.

Do you mean about being on Death Row?  Yes, when you have been sentenced to Death, there is no parole.  Your there until your dead either way unless you get out on an appeal or something like that.

Okay....I see the confusion, I thought an earlier post said one was on Death Row.  I see it says both are doing life.

[John Bryan]

How sad......they both had everything going for them. They should be Air Force and Naval Officers right now but instead they are inmates. And another human being is dead and who knows what she would have done with her life.

In the end 3 lives "lost"........Very sad.

[FW]

Interesting topic of discussion.

As the years go by, memories of my experiences as a cadet fade however, I still attribute the lessons learned as the basis for the life I lead today.  I got as far as I could before college and "life" began to overtake cadet life.  CAP gave me the skill set to make (for me) the right decisions to succeed and the disipline to prosper.

IMHO, I agree it's not the program, it's what we make out of it that determines success or failure; same as any other life experience. 

[CASH172]

Really?  I mean they even made a movie about it that comes out on Lifetime (I know this because my wife pointed it out to me).

It's hard to tell if all you do is watch the movie.  CAP only has about 2 seconds of fame, and I mean literally 2 seconds, in the whole movie.

Now the book is filled with details about CAP and the whole storyline.

[MikeD]

So on a different note, there's a former C/Col in my squadron, now a SM Capt, he's a student intern at NASA and is working on building up hours to be a MP. 

A former cadet that used to be in my squadron was recently PCS'd back to the east coast, he's an Air Force cop and active in CAP at his new location. 

Both are still active with ES and the cadet program. 

[flyboy53]

Come on guys, you've beat this topic to death (really bad pun). First some of you call people failures who don't achieve Spaatz or Wilson awards and then jump head long into the Texas cadet murder. What a horrible way to describe achievement in the CAP Cadet Program. When I joined the CAP Cadet Program in 1966, the program was still in transition between the training awards and what you now know as the current program. Funny, I didn't look at myself as a failure because I only earned three stripes before the squadron turned senior and I was forced to surrender cadet rank for senior enlisted rank. For me, the goal was observer wings...which I earned and still proudly wear. There were plenty of senior members (including a bunch of wartime members) then who never got above captain and the rare rank then was major. I don't think anyone of those wartime officers considered themselves as failures, but I could guarantee that people listened when they spoke. In the Air Force (and obviously I started as a slick sleve), I don't remember the TI telling us we would be failures if we didn't achieve the top three enlisted grades. Instead, I remember the statistic of only 5 percent make it to E-7 master sergeant...so when I got to that rank, I was satisified with the achievement and I really didn't have an urge to go further because of all I had to do to get there. Now, I'm a Lt. Col. with Level 4 and Squadron Officer School under my belt. I relish that acheivement...If I get a Wilson, it will be because my wife and family has blessed that goal...and you know what, the CAP ribbons don't mean a thing in regard to the five rows of AF decorations and badge bling that I wear. I remember sometime ago a story in the magazine that detailed a general who only spent a couple of years in the program and didn't achieve a Mitchell. His journey to general wasn't based on a Spaatz Award. My current job in elected government had nothing to do with the CAP and more due to my Air Force experience and level of college education. The point is, it isn't the destination (award) that's important, it's the journey. If more CAP leaders undestood that, perhaps we wouldn't have such a poor retention rate.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Too true, Flyboy.

I had what I consider to be a very successful cadet squadron in that I had, during my command tenure:

1 appointment to USMA
1 Appointment to the AF Academy
1 ROTC 4-year full scholarship
1 Army Warrant Oficer pilot
1 USCG enlistee

But... I also had one of the more spectacular failures.  One cadet, who never was able to deal with the discipline (but his dad thought he needed "Structure") got caught in a house burglary.  Not a biggie, sure, but...

The driver that took him to the burglary and would have driven him away had they not got caught was the mother of the cadet appointed to USMA!  And, she was the ex-wife of a police lieutenant. 

How these two got together... I'll never know!   

[ricks]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

Those two had a drive that was deadly. So ingrained was their direction and determination that they got caught up in themselves and it turned tragic. This is the root of my belief that the CAP cadet program should be focused more on ES and less on the military. WIWAC I knew them both. We were all in the same squadron and ran with the same crowds. We were not into drugs or anything but we were on the other side, uncompromising, completely dedicated. The murder happened after I had left for the Army and after they had gotten their appointments to the Academies back in '95. That is one of those things I will always remember. After I enlisted I learned that the military was not rigid or uncompromising. I learned that it was a job like many others. I learned that a soldier could have compassion. I wish they would have had learned more compassion while cadets as opposed to believing that their true military bearing was so harsh and unyielding. The cadet program at this squadron at the time was very robust with senior cadets believing that they knew how to be hard because they watched Platoon. I know that this probably makes little sense to anyone here but it is along time coming for me. I know that the CAP did not make David and Diane killers but I do believe that the false beliefs that they learned as cadets contributed to their crazy wacked-out belief system.

And no, neither is on death row as far as I know.

[Rotorhead]

Uhhhhhhh.....its a youth organization.  I think whats more important is what you do after, not what CADET rank you earned.

What is a youth organization? Civil Air Patrol?

That's gonna come as a big surprise to the members of my Senior squadron.

I don't think they will be surprised to learn that the cadet program is the largest part of CAP in terms of personnel involved and manhours expended.

After all, I'll bet they have done more than their share of supporting o-rides and things like encampment.

Neither of which make CAP a "youth organization."

[Flying Pig]

^Dude...relax.  You missed the context in which the comment was made.  I didnt mean CAP is a youth organization.  I meant the CADET PROGRAM is a youth organization.

And HEY.....I made it to C/2Lt., and Im the biggest loser I know.

[Major Carrales]

Uhhhhhhh.....its a youth organization.  I think whats more important is what you do after, not what CADET rank you earned.

What is a youth organization? Civil Air Patrol?

That's gonna come as a big surprise to the members of my Senior squadron.

I don't think they will be surprised to learn that the cadet program is the largest part of CAP in terms of personnel involved and manhours expended.

After all, I'll bet they have done more than their share of supporting o-rides and things like encampment.

Neither of which make CAP a "youth organization."

I am tempted to make the comments that follow in earnest, however, these are things I subscribe to and cannot dictate to the masses to adopt the view of CAP I have developed in my 11 years of service to it.  However, here I write for the benefit of all that read... 

"When you joined CAP, you joined an organization with three distinct Congressionally Charted Missions, not just some compartment of it.  Welcome to the CADET PROGRAM, and the EMERGENCY SERVICES and the AEROSPACE EDUCATION.   Sorry if you thought otherwise.

If you "didn't sign up for that,"  then I respectfully suggest you review your relationship to the organization.  Unless it is I that is in the wrong...or it is wrong to try a WHOLE CAP approach."

Presented for personal ponder.

[SarDragon]

I am tempted to make the comments that follow in earnest, however, these are things I subscribe to and cannot dictate to the masses to adopt the view of CAP I have developed in my 11 years of service to it.  However, here I write for the benefit of all that read... 

"When you joined CAP, you joined an organization with three distinct Congressionally Charted Missions, not just some compartment of it.  Welcome to the CADET PROGRAM, and the EMERGENCY SERVICES and the AEROSPACE EDUCATION.   Sorry if you thought otherwise.

If you "didn't sign up for that,"  then I respectfully suggest you review your relationship to the organization.  Unless it is I that is in the wrong...or it is wrong to try a WHOLE CAP approach."

Presented for personal ponder.

Then why does CAP have three different types of squadrons - Cadet, Composite, and Senior?

According to your model, only the first two can approach adequately embracing all three missions. The best a senior squadron can do is provide cadet O-flights, if the unit has an airplane.

I understand, and support your point, but until the basic structure changes, your approach will not universally succeed.

When my last squadron folded, we shopped around for places for solutions to support the members in new units. The local senior squadron, where I ended up, was approached about absorbing our unit and becoming a composite squadron. The response was a resounding NFW, literally, from more than one member. The cadets ultimately went elsewhere, and everything turned out OK.

Some adult members want nothing to do with the under 21 set. They have varied reasons, all logical and proper in their own minds. Until that mindset is radically changed, the problem will remain.

YMMV.

[Major Carrales]

Then why does CAP have three different types of squadrons - Cadet, Composite, and Senior?

Alright, let me put up another "straw man" and we'll see which scarecrow the Wizard gives a brain to.  Tell me then, why do we have 100% Cadet Protection?

Seems to me because any person in CAP might at times be called to work with cadets.

According to your model, only the first two can approach adequately embracing all three missions. The best a senior squadron can do is provide cadet O-flights, if the unit has an airplane.

And that is their contribution.  They might also participate in Flight Academies and other activities.  I know in Texas, aircraft are pressed into service for that.

I understand, and support your point, but until the basic structure changes, your approach will not universally succeed.

The point I am trying to make is that CAP Officers cannot simply "ignore" the Cadet Programs mission because it is a convenient thing to do to maintain their aspect.  Cadet Programs is equal to Emergency Services.  A person offended that CAP is called a "Youth Program" is just as insipid as someone who is offended because CAP is called an "Emergency Services" organization.

Yes, there are some places where CAP is all Cadet, as in a school setting.  In Corpus Christi (South Texas' Coastal Bend) we do both.  Cadets get in on some ES and CAP Aviators do not turn to stone if they see a cadet (or communicate with one via CAP COMM being stationed by CADET MROs)

When my last squadron folded, we shopped around for places for solutions to support the members in new units. The local senior squadron, where I ended up, was approached about absorbing our unit and becoming a composite squadron. The response was a resounding NFW, literally, from more than one member. The cadets ultimately went elsewhere, and everything turned out OK.

I hope you are not proud of that.  Turning away brother and sister CAP members (yes, the Cadets are your brother and sister airmen also)  I am almost ashamed by what you have written.

Some adult members want nothing to do with the under 21 set. They have varied reasons, all logical and proper in their own minds. Until that mindset is radically changed, the problem will remain.

When CAP goes to Capital Hill, remember that the funding and support comes to all parts.  I can tell you from conversations with Congressmen that I have had via correspondence and face to face that there are some legislators that wouldn't give support to CAP (not a nickle) if the Cadet Program were not a part of it.  I also know an almost equal number with strong feelings about ES.  AE is looked at as Educational and universally accepted by those I know.

So, until it is understood that we need to work as a unified CAP...we will never be out of the danger that we will be cut.

[SarDragon]

When my last squadron folded, we shopped around for places for solutions to support the members in new units. The local senior squadron, where I ended up, was approached about absorbing our unit and becoming a composite squadron. The response was a resounding NFW, literally, from more than one member. The cadets ultimately went elsewhere, and everything turned out OK.

I hope you are not proud of that.  Turning away brother and sister CAP members (yes, the Cadets are your brother and sister airmen also)  I am almost ashamed by what you have written. 

No, I am not proud of that. It wasn't "my" unit when that happened, and gladly,many of those negative folks are no longer with us. We are active in the O'flight program (yes, we have a plane), but the major concentration remains on ES. We have even participated in cadet ES train9ing with other units.

However, the fact remains that the three missions of CAP will not be truly universal, whether by geography, demographics, or, sadly, attitude. My entry into CAP was in the mid-'60s, as a cadet. Throughout that time, there have been changes, both positive and negative, with regards to unit mission and makeup, but the disparity remains.

You have identified a problem. Now, what's your plan?

[Major Carrales]

You have identified a problem. Now, what's your plan?

I'm a CAP Officer, not Jesus.  Thus, I can only present a plan that effects the area where I am in command.  My unit, and its offers, all have the WHOLE CAP approach.  They understand that we are in it for the whole of the program.

While some concentrate on ES and CD, they don't run from the cadets like cowards.  They serve as mentors, take pride in the cadet's achievements and understand that if they are to place the proper number of mandated hours by the Wing and Group they had better fly O-flights.

They are interested in news of cadets going to encampments and to powered and glider encampments.  And do you know why this is so?

Because, above all, they know that from those cadets will come the GA aviators of tomorrow.  From those cadets marching in squares and circles or learning radios and shaping up will come those pilots that will purchase fuel from the FBOs, display their airmanship in the skies where they will all fly and maybe be the CAP Pilots that continue the unit.

We do our part...now, what are you doing about it in your area?

[SarDragon]

Because, above all, they know that from those cadets will come the GA aviators of tomorrow.  From those cadets marching in squares and circles or learning radios and shaping up will come those pilots that will purchase fuel from the FBOs, display their airmanship in the skies where they will all fly and maybe be the CAP Pilots that continue the unit.

Gold star for the Major! That's exactly what many senior squadrons lose track of.

[Johnny Yuma]

The Mitchell is considered, at least by most of us, as "Completing" the cadet program.

By whom?

The Mitchell is the mid-point, no more, no less. 

Tell it to the Air Force. At least when it comes to getting E3 when you enlist, they want to see your Mitchell certificate as proof of completion of the cadet program. Their words, not mine.

[Robert Hartigan]

Also don't forget that AFROTC Det Commanders can give credit for part of the General Military Course to cadets who receive the Spaatz, Earhart, and Mitchell Awards during any academic term of the GMC.