BDU

[captrncap]

What is the best fabric for BDUs? I've seen many things about 100% cotton, 50/50 nylon/cotton, 65/35 polyester/cotton.  I am look for some guidance for year round use. I was trying to get something good for summer months (like use with encampment) and something solid to keep warm in the winter.

[iowacap]

The two you are thinking of are the winter weight and summer weight. I live in iowa and I am plenty warm with the summer weight which is the cotton ones. I have a good warm winter BDU jacket to go with it and works out perfect. The only difference is if you do ground team you may want to think about getting the winter weight to give you that extra protection from the cold.

[Chris Jacobs]

I just wear the sumer weight year round, but then again it only gets below freezing like 20 days a year here in portland oregon.

[MIKE]

50% nylon 50% cotton enhanced ripstop.  It's in between the 100% cottons and the heavyweight twill.  Referred to as Enchanced Hot Weather BDU EHWBDU.  AAFESS MCSS sells these and the twills (Temprate).

EHWBDU Shirt
EHWBDU Trousers
EHWBDU Cap

The 100% cottons suck... Do yourself a favor and spend a few extra bucks.

[md132]

You can check AF MCSS.  Most Army MCSS will not have them anymore because of the ACU's since there are some squadrons that are based on or near an Army base like mine.  For me the nearest on I can go to is Ft Meade or Andrews AFB.  But I agree EHWBDU is the best one to go.

[Jeff_Miller]

When I was wearing BDUs (now have Army ACUs), I just kept four sets of summer weights.  When it gets colder, just wear some snivel gear underneath (Polypro, etc).  Also, starching the summer weights makes them a bit warmer in the colder months.

[CapnSuper]

Based on the new Air Force ABU, 50-50 nylon-cotton blend permanent press fabric will be the only version available.

If and when CAP adopts them, maybe they'll have other varieties.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforce/a/abu.htm

[Becks]

well theyre not fully phasing out the BDU till around 2011, so if CAP would ever get the ABU it would be a while after that date.

[Earhart1971]

Based on the new Air Force ABU, 50-50 nylon-cotton blend permanent press fabric will be the only version available.

If and when CAP adopts them, maybe they'll have other varieties.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforce/a/abu.htm

I vote for dumping Camo BDUs and going with SOLID TAN, with the suede Desert Boots, the light color reflects heat better.

No I don't like ORANGE Vests to overcome the CAMO.

[md132]

to help a little more.  The summer weight is the best.  You can purchase thermal undergarment for less than $20.00 total (top and bottom) at any MCSS.  Or just about any top undergarnment that is brown or black.

[shorning]

I vote for dumping Camo BDUs and going with SOLID TAN, with the suede Desert Boots, the light color reflects heat better.

No I don't like ORANGE Vests to overcome the CAMO.

Tan doesn't stand out in the desert southwest or a few other areas.  The AF seems to do well with BDUs in hot areas.  Why do we need special consideration?  Why do we need to perpetuate the absurdity by creating even more uniforms?

[pixelwonk]

Tan doesn't stand out in the desert southwest or a few other areas.  The AF seems to do well with BDUs in hot areas.  Why do we need special consideration?  Why do we need to perpetuate the absurdity by creating even more uniforms?

Well Duh, Steve...  It's because we're CAP.  Contrive Alternative Panoply   

[shorning]

Tan doesn't stand out in the desert southwest or a few other areas.  The AF seems to do well with BDUs in hot areas.  Why do we need special consideration?  Why do we need to perpetuate the absurdity by creating even more uniforms?

Well Duh, Steve...  It's because we're CAP.  Contrive Alternative Panoply   

It does distract people from the real issues...

[Becks]

I live in a hot enviornment, South Carolina, and Im perfectly fine with the woodland.  We're not deployed to the desert and therefor dont really need the tans for any reason.  The only nice part about the tan cammies is that you have the suede boots that dont require polishing, granted I like my boots shiney 

[Chris Jacobs]

I wish we could wear the suede boots with the woodland.  I saw an army guy that has the new dark suede boots on with his woodland camo and it didn't look to terribly bad.  The boots can be a lot more comfortable when it is hot out.

[md132]

The reason why that soldiers who wore the suede boots with BDU is because of two reasons.  1.  That soldier has not recieved his ACU yet.  Or 2. The MCSS where you are at do not carrey black boots anymore since it's also being phased out.  AF still wears the black boots right now.  I don't know what kind of boots they will be wearing with their new uniform.

[mikeylikey]

The reason why that soldiers who wore the suede boots with BDU is because of two reasons.  1.  That soldier has not received his ACU yet.  Or 2. The MCSS where you are at do not Carry black boots anymore since it's also being phased out.  AF still wears the black boots right now.  I don't know what kind of boots they will be wearing with their new uniform.

Actually, the Soldier has the option of wearing black or suede boots.  The phase out of black boots has been extended to 2008.  However, the suede are cheaper than the leather.  Money my be a factor.  Also, the option is available to the individual as to wear the new ACU or continue wearing BDU's until the phase out.  ACU's are only being issued to soldiers in initial training (basic, ROTC), everyone else gets to go to the MCSS and buy theirs. IMO, the black boots with the ACU and beret, just go better together aesthetically.  It does however, disgust me to see a formation, half wearing BDU's the other half wearing ACU's.  As a CO, I can not order everyone into the same uniform during a "Phase In",  so we will put up with it for a while longer.  Back on subject, wear summer weight BDU's.  They present a sharper, crisper crease when starched!

[Psicorp]

The reason why that soldiers who wore the suede boots with BDU is because of two reasons.  1.  That soldier has not received his ACU yet.  Or 2. The MCSS where you are at do not Carry black boots anymore since it's also being phased out.  AF still wears the black boots right now.  I don't know what kind of boots they will be wearing with their new uniform.

Actually, the Soldier has the option of wearing black or suede boots.  The phase out of black boots has been extended to 2008.  However, the suede are cheaper than the leather.  Money my be a factor.  Also, the option is available to the individual as to wear the new ACU or continue wearing BDU's until the phase out.  ACU's are only being issued to soldiers in initial training (basic, ROTC), everyone else gets to go to the MCSS and buy theirs. IMO, the black boots with the ACU and beret, just go better together aesthetically.  It does however, disgust me to see a formation, half wearing BDU's the other half wearing ACU's.  As a CO, I can not order everyone into the same uniform during a "Phase In",  so we will put up with it for a while longer.  Back on subject, wear summer weight BDU's.  They present a sharper, crisper crease when starched!

I have heard the numerous uniform debates for a while now.  I was a cadet when we had the old Air Force olive drab fatigues.   Gotta love wash and wear uniforms...especially if they're supposed to be "utility" uniforms.   Personally, I'd rather go back to the olive drab than any navy-esque uniform.   

On the subject of BDU's...I was under the impression that since the Air Force recinded the requirement  that BDUs must be starched and ironed, that CAP had followed suit...is this right, Sir?

[MIKE]

On the subject of BDU's...I was under the impression that since the Air Force recinded the requirement  that BDUs must be starched and ironed, that CAP had followed suit...is this right, Sir?

2-1. ... Uniforms must be clean, neat and correct in design and specifications, fitted properly, pressed and in good condition (that is not frayed, worn out, torn, faded, patched, and so forth). Uniform items are to be kept zipped, snapped, or buttoned.  Shoes are to be shined and in good repair. ...

Emphasis mine.

[shorning]

On the subject of BDU's...I was under the impression that since the Air Force recinded the requirement  that BDUs must be starched and ironed, that CAP had followed suit...is this right, Sir?

1.3.1.3. Uniforms will be neat, clean, pressed, buttoned, and properly maintained.

The Air Force (as a whole) has never had a requirement to starch the BDUs.  So...there was nothing to rescind. 

Or perhaps I don't know much about Air Force uniforms...

[Matt]

On the subject of BDU's...I was under the impression that since the Air Force recinded the requirement  that BDUs must be starched and ironed, that CAP had followed suit...is this right, Sir?

1.3.1.3. Uniforms will be neat, clean, pressed, buttoned, and properly maintained.

The Air Force (as a whole) has never had a requirement to starch the BDUs.  So...there was nothing to rescind. 

Or perhaps I don't know much about Air Force uniforms...

I have a feeling the reason that the AF has said nothing about starching is because if personnel read the tags is specifies: Do Not Starch. 

Not that I have anything directly against starch, I used it for about my first 18 months, but, after while, not only does the cost and time add up, but so does the build up on the iron...  Plus, if one irons their uniform weekly, it alleviates the need for starch.

[MIKE]

I'm anti-starch and I'm against commanders requiring it of their people.  To me it does more harm than good in that it accelerates wear, fading and inhibits performance of the fabric and/or is used to supplement poor quality uniforms... Buy EHWBDUs instead of 100% cotton knock offs and press/iron them once and a while and you'll look fine.

The not to distant future:  ABUs... Pull them out of the dryer, put 'em on (still warm), pull on no-shine desert boots and go... Yeah! 

[shorning]

I have a feeling the reason that the AF has said nothing about starching is because if personnel read the tags is specifies: Do Not Starch. 

Actually, that's not the reason at all.  It's about establishing minimum acceptable standards.

My point is there hasn't been any AF-wide requirement to starch BDUs.  Yes, a lot (most?) people do, but it certainly isn't required.  Likewise, there was no  policy to rescind.

As been mentioned here and elsewhere, when the AF transitions to the ABU there will no longer be a need for starching.  Just pull it out of the dryer and hang it up right away.  Just like a flightsuit.  Of course, it's only a matter of time until some chucklehead starches it, someone decides it looks "good", and it become a common practice.

[shorning]

I'm anti-starch and I'm against commanders requiring it of their people.  To me it does more harm than good in that it accelerates wear, fading and inhibits performance of the fabric and/or is used to supplement poor quality uniforms... Buy EHWBDUs instead of 100% cotton knock offs and press/iron them once and a while and you'll look fine.

I guess having worn BDUs on a daily basis for a good bit of my career, I have a slightly different perspective. 

I'm not against starching uniforms.  I think "light starch" can help make your uniforms more presentable.  Although I do think heavy starch in uniforms is a bit of overkill (and silly).  Personally, even the "light" starch from the cleaners is too much.

Do I require my folks to starch their uniforms?  No.  But I do expect them to meet the AF standards:  neat, clean, pressed, buttoned, and properly maintained.  As a member of the Profession of Arms, there is nothing wrong with having a little pride in wearing the uniform.  Wearing it properly, and proudly, not only shows respect for yourself and the uniform, but it also shows respect for the thousands that wore the uniform before you.

[Psicorp]

I'm anti-starch and I'm against commanders requiring it of their people.  To me it does more harm than good in that it accelerates wear, fading and inhibits performance of the fabric and/or is used to supplement poor quality uniforms... Buy EHWBDUs instead of 100% cotton knock offs and press/iron them once and a while and you'll look fine.

I guess having worn BDUs on a daily basis for a good bit of my career, I have a slightly different perspective. 

I'm not against starching uniforms.  I think "light starch" can help make your uniforms more presentable.  Although I do think heavy starch in uniforms is a bit of overkill (and silly).  Personally, even the "light" starch from the cleaners is too much.

Do I require my folks to starch their uniforms?  No.  But I do expect them to meet the AF standards:  neat, clean, pressed, buttoned, and properly maintained.  As a member of the Profession of Arms, there is nothing wrong with having a little pride in wearing the uniform.  Wearing it properly, and proudly, not only shows respect for yourself and the uniform, but it also shows respect for the thousands that wore the uniform before you.

My father was AD A.F. when they switched to BDUs.  I recall vividly him standing over the iron, making sure they were starched and pressed "just so", listening to him complain that it didn't make sense that he had to starch and press a "battle dress" uniform.  A few years later he told me that the requirement (at least for the base he was assigned) was that while they did have to be pressed (no wringles and pockets flat), the need for starch was done away with.  A much more sensible approach and one I totally agree with.  The blues shirt is still a different story, starch just seems to make it look better.   

[shorning]

I think the confusion here comes from what the Air Force policy is/was and what the common practice or expectation is.  Even today the Air Force doesn't require BDUs to be starched however it's widely accepted that they will be.  And while that may be fairly commonplace, it's not a standard we (AF supervisors as well as CAP leaders) can enforce.  Out mission it to enforce the standards.  Not our own personal standards.  As I tell my new airmen, my personal standards are high, but I don't expect them to meet those standards.  Certainly the can if they wish, but I'll enforce the AF-wide (or in this case CAP-wide) standards.

[CAP006]

In my opinion 50/50 nylon is how BDU's should be made.                               
COTTEN SUCKES!!!!!     Sucks worse in the rain.   

Q? Do CAP Cadets get the new digital camo?      Or is that just Mari. and Army?!

[MIKE]

Q? Do CAP Cadets get the new digital camo?      Or is that just Mari. and Army?!

For now it's woodland camouflage BDUs or navy blue CAP Field Uniforms... Essentially blue BDUs.

[CAP006]

For now it's woodland camouflage BDUs or navy blue CAP Field Uniforms... Essentially blue BDUs.

Thank you!    But will we be getting the Digital camo at all?
I think we should get the digital camo.

Thoughts


Mod Edit: Fixed broken quote tag. --MK

[shorning]

But will we be getting the Digital camo at all?

Who knows.  Right now it's irrelevant.  Someday when the camouflage BDUs are all gone, we (CAP) will have to decide if we're going to wear the field uniform, or ask the Air Force for permission to wear the ABU.

As an aside, other than "looking cool" what advantage do the ABUs offer over the field uniform?  In other words, why do you want to wear them?

[Psicorp]

But will we be getting the Digital camo at all?

Who knows.  Right now it's irrelevant.  Someday when the camoflauge BDUs are all gone, we (CAP) will have to decide if we're going to wear the field uniform, or ask the Air Force for permission to wear the ABU.

As an aside, other than "looking cool" what advantage do the ABUs offer over the field uniform?  In other words, why do you want to wear them?

If the purpose of camoflauge is to blend oneself in with the background, doesn't wearing the orange safety vest just about cancel it out completely?   I can recall being on a ground team on a SAR mission during deer season and wishing the Powers That Be had authorized orange BDUs.

[shorning]

But will we be getting the Digital camo at all?

Who knows.  Right now it's irrelevant.  Someday when the camouflage BDUs are all gone, we (CAP) will have to decide if we're going to wear the field uniform, or ask the Air Force for permission to wear the ABU.

As an aside, other than "looking cool" what advantage do the ABUs offer over the field uniform?  In other words, why do you want to wear them?

If the purpose of camouflage is to blend oneself in with the background, doesn't wearing the orange safety vest just about cancel it out completely?   I can recall being on a ground team on a SAR mission during deer season and wishing the Powers That Be had authorized orange BDUs.

That's all well and good, but doesn't begin to answer my question.  Actually, it's kind of irrelevant to my question.

[CAP006]

But will we be getting the Digital camo at all?



So if we do get the ADU`s, when will we get them?

Q, still stands, Are we going to get the ADU`s at all?

[MIKE]

There is a rumor floating around that we will transition to the Airman Battle Uniform (ABU).

CAP Will Transition the ABU

[ncc1912]

There is a rumor floating around that we will transition to the Airman Battle Uniform (ABU).

CAP Will Transition the ABU

Just remember:  Since the mandatory wear date for AD Air Force is 2011 CAP will more than likely transition before that date, as well.  It is just that CAP's transition will more than likely be much shorter (not 5-years);  probably more like 1 to 2 years, from 2009 through 2011, when/if approved by the National Board.  This will enable AAFES to supply the rest of the Air Force and replenish their stock.  (because AAFES never has enough )

Currently, not everyone in the AF is getting the uniform.  They are not even issuing it to new recruits (or "trainees," as the Air Force likes to call them) at Lackland yet, but as airman deploy to the "sand box" they will begin to be issued the Airman Battle Uniform (ABU) in lieu of the Dessert Camouflage Uniform (DCU) starting this fall.  Next spring, I believe, they are going to be issuing them to trainees at Lackland and hopefully they will be available for sale in AAFES stores and AAFES.com in late 2007.

[mawr]

I saw a video on the subject on www.af.mil that said that the ABU will be issued to those attending basic training starting in 2007.

[ZigZag911]

In view of the fact that one of our principal uses for BDUs is for ground team work on search missions (where we want our people highly visible to one another, as well as to aircraft), what possible need to we have for the current camoflauge BDUs or the new ABU?

It seems to me that, fundamentally, these uniforms are needed by combat soldiers, those supporting them directly, or those training for possible roles in either area.

The blue field uniform would at least have the advantage of getting all our members in ONE field uniform -- uniformity!! Granted, we'd still need the oprange vests for visibility.

[MIKE]

You could make that argument if the Minimum Basic Service Uniform was really the uniform for cadeting around in and you only needed a utility uniform for ES functions.  But since it's not... You're gonna have some pissed off cadets and some seniors, when you tell them they can't wear the Air Force style utility uniform for doing cadet things in.

I don't agree with the arguments that since somebody either can't or doesn't wish to wear Air Force style uniforms, that everyone else should have to wear CAP distinctives because of uniformity... but really because they can't wear it, so nobody should.

[CAPRANGER]

Good afternoon all.

I just wanted to comment on the latest discussions regarding the BDU's.  As a new Airman in the US Air Force, just having recently completed my BMT and Tech Training as a Command Post Controller, I feel it is appropriate to weigh in at this time.

In regards to starch.  In Basic they tell you the first few days that starch will ruin BDU's, that there is a substance undetectable to Night Vision and/or Infared and when starch is applied, will take that away and one will become uniformly combat ineffective.  However, on the flip side of that instruction, we were told it didn't matter about that anyway, because the war is in the sandbox anyway, and we won't be wearing BDU's, but DCU's.  Then we just brought them to the cry cleaner's every few days, and heavy starch was applied.  Now, in Tech Training, you don't have Military Training Instructors(DI's), bu.t Military Training Leaders.  They are in the dormitories to help guide you through the rest of your training.  However, after a two week class at Lackland AFB, TX, many of these MTL's as we call them thought they went through the 16 week MTIS.  Getting back on track...If our uniforms were not starched at Tech Training, we were assigned extra duty on the weekend called an NCD, which was Charge of Quarters.  Obviously, you aren't supposed to starch your uniforms by what is said on the tags, but the reality, and the way the current Air Force is, we starch our uniforms more than we even need to.  In addition, I am in the USAF Honor Guard.  For Honor Guardsmen, we ALWAYS starch our uniforms, to the point we have to dress each other because the BDU's are too hard, as in they will bounce off the ground if you drop them.  In addition, we leather luster our boots, wear taps, etc.  All these things are great for Honor Guardsmen, but not for the general welfare of the USAF, and that trickles down to the CAP.

Second, CAP in my opinion does not need the new ABU's at all.  The USAF will start issuing the ABU's this fall we are told, and that is only to top leadership, recruiters, basic trainees, and deployed Airmen.  CAP is not a combat organization.  It is a federally chartered non-profit organization which clearly states combat is not one of it's roles.  That is my personal opinion, as CAP needs the regular BDU's with colored patches in the woods on SAR missions.

I thank you for the time in letting my express my personal views, opinions, and experiences and hope this wil generate positive discussion.

A1C Joseph. S. Gorgoglione, USAF

[Smokey]

I think the issue will end up being cost as far as CAP switching to the ABU.  As the Army, Marines, Air Force switch uniforms, it will not be cost effective for the manufacturers to produce BDUs. It's rare you can find now the old  solid green "pickle suit" used by the Air Force before they went to the BDU.

There comes a point where it is cheaper for all to make the switch to what is being worn by the AF--the ABU.  When the AF switches over, the BX will no longer carry the BDU. And not everyone wants to wear used BDUs that were turned in to DRMO.  BDUs will mostly be available in surplus stores.  Most are used with some new, but the supply will run out eventually. 

[shorning]

Ugh!

ACU  = Army uniform

ABU = future Air Force uniform

They are not the same, nor are they interchangeable.  Not pointing fingers, just clarifying.

[lordmonar]

To back up CAPRANGER...in my 20+ years with the Air Force I have always taken my uniforms to the cleaners and gotten them starched.  Was it REQUIRED?  No.  Was it looked down on if you did not starch them or laundered them yourself?  No (assuming you did iron them).

So...what do we have...we have s coperate mentality that starch "looks better".

Is this right or wrong....it does not really matter.  It all depends on what you are trying to say with your uniform.

As for ABU for CAP....I think this is a great opportunity for CAP to finally transition to a "uniform" uniform system.

As BDU's start becoming hard to get we can transition to the BBDU Field uniform.  It is still military enough that we keep the military image, it is distinctive enough to keep our identity as CAP, and finally it will be uniform.

There is a great argument to transition to the ABU's to keep our identity with our parent organization....however, with the issue of getting approval for everything we want to put on them, the requirement to maintain weight and grooming standards and the mish-mash of differing uniforms, we are at an window of opportunity to correct a major sticking point in the CAP uniform system.

[ZigZag911]

You could make that argument if the Minimum Basic Service Uniform was really the uniform for cadeting around in and you only needed a utility uniform for ES functions.  But since it's not... You're gonna have some pissed off cadets and some seniors, when you tell them they can't wear the Air Force style utility uniform for doing cadet things in.

I don't agree with the arguments that since somebody either can't or doesn't wish to wear Air Force style uniforms, that everyone else should have to wear CAP distinctives because of uniformity... but really because they can't wear it, so nobody should.

I realize there will be displeasure among many cadets and even some seniors.

As I mentioned, I was a cadet some years ago....I doubt if, at that time, I'd have seen the reasoning I am setting forth now, either.

Frankly, I don't think Young Marines, JROTC of any discreption, or any other youth organization member (or adult leader) belongs in the actual uniform of a military service, particularly not their combat uniform....sends the wrong message to the members, and to the public.

It's not about who can't meet grooming standards....it's about uniformity, and setting the correct tone for CAP....we are non-combatant civilians....pride in our Air Force heritage and connection is great, but I really feel it should be reflected in our insignia, flags & guidons, customs & courtesies....just not the uniforms!

I realize many will disagree with me on this point, as is their right!