Paint Ball for Cadets

[SM-MADDOG]

Ok You arent speaking about firearms, I was showing examples of other things. Someone said Weapons, now I passed basic firearms with the PD back in 1998, go re view what the meaning of weapon is. Firearm, Knife, Baton and so on. What im showing is that CAP's own regulation on this so called thing is funny, it says (No Weapons). A Knife is a weapon.

In our State here the Air Force survival knife if You were to carry that off duty from CAP You would be arrested, the knife blade is too long from what the law says You are allowed to carry. That's what I was speaking about. And I just added some things.

Now You saying FYI Police Explorer world I never stated they handed Me a gun on the road. We did during firearms training with sworn certified weapons instructors, however if an emergency came up and was very bad I was advised and knew I could use a weapon as last resort if it called for it. I know I cant hand a "firearm to a cadet" lol. But speaking on the paintball activity is what I was also saying.

SM-MADDOG-

We aren't talking about firearms.  We're talking about paint balling.

They are entirely different with the only similarity being that they both shoot projectiles. 

And FYI- it may be so in the police explorer world but in CAP if I hand a cadet a paintball gun and tell them to shoot that kid over there it doesn't make it "legal" regulatorily speaking

[SM-MADDOG]

Cadets could decide as a "group of friends" to go out and do paintball right? If its not on duty with CAP, not an offical squadron activity they could do it that way. I know some of our cadets they do stuff like that off duty from CAP. I like that they decide to do things beyound CAP, brings the friends closer together on duty and off duty.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day actvity not a night.

[JayT]

Cadets could decide as a "group of friends" to go out and do paintball right? If its not on duty with CAP, not an offical squadron activity they could do it that way. I know some of our cadets they do stuff like that off duty from CAP. I like that they decide to do things beyound CAP, brings the friends closer together on duty and off duty.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day actvity not a night.

*sighs, and buries my face in my hands*

No, no no no, no no no no.

[Always Ready]

Cadets could decide as a "group of friends" to go out and do paintball right? If its not on duty with CAP, not an official squadron activity they could do it that way. I know some of our cadets they do stuff like that off duty from CAP. I like that they decide to do things beyond CAP, brings the friends closer together on duty and off duty.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day actvity not a night.

For the record you only need one Senior Member present...

Ensure that at least two “approved” senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

Emphasis mine...the keyword is 'Encourage' not required. You are only required to have one approved senior member at cadet activities and two for overnight activities. Although it is highly recommended to have two.

[Eclipse]

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day activity not a night.

A) CPT does not require 2 adults for non-overnight activities.

B) The CO is wrong. Period.

B) Someone needs to review a few regulatory documents.

[Stonewall]

MADDOG:

Are you new to CAP?

Are you a 21 year old senior who just converted over from being a cadet?

Are you serious?

[SM-MADDOG]

I think the group commander has some requirements for 2 Senior Members.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day activity not a night.

A) CPT does not require 2 adults for non-overnight activities.

B) The CO is wrong. Period.

B) Someone needs to review a few regulatory documents.

[SM-MADDOG]

Hi stonewall, I think Your male however im not sure, so No Sir or Ma'am im not new to CAP. I joined CAP back Jan 06. Im 26, going to turn 27 so yes to the 2nd question lol. Age number just keeps going up.

As to the 3rd question serious about the commander speaking about an activity needing 2 seniors? Yes. That is what the Group Command has said since I joined. I can say that since I joined they have (CAP) seems to be going in a better direction. Overal I love CAP. Of course as with anything they can improve in certain areas but nothing is perfect.

MADDOG:

Are you new to CAP?

Are you a 21 year old senior who just converted over from being a cadet?

Are you serious?

[SM-MADDOG]

Cadets could decide as a "group of friends" to go out and do paintball right? If its not on duty with CAP, not an offical squadron activity they could do it that way. I know some of our cadets they do stuff like that off duty from CAP. I like that they decide to do things beyound CAP, brings the friends closer together on duty and off duty.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day actvity not a night.

*sighs, and buries my face in my hands*

No, no no no, no no no no.

Thanks for the reply, are You saying no to the 2 senior member rule? Or no to the off duty paintball?. Because if they did paintball not as CAP or anything to do with CAP, they could. It wouldnt fall under the CAP regs because it wouldnt have a thing to do with CAP, and its also not against any federal or state laws so they would be lawful. That is unless they did something to make it illegal, lol.

As for the 2 senior member rule, this thing is crazy. I know the group commander has said We must have 2 senior members for activities and night activities. Thats the way it's been done since I joined in 06. I wish they would get with it and look at the regulations and decide how is suppose to be done.

[Stonewall]

I tried to send you a PM (Private Message) and take this offline, but you have me blocked from sending you a message.

I'd rather not post what I wrote to you as it isn't something everyone needs to see.

[Rotorhead]

For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore.

Nice try, but NO, despite what the CC says. Clothing has no bearing on whether it is a CAP acitivty or not.

[Rotorhead]

One place to go to find such stats would be several federal government agencies that hold stats, I will have to find those for You and post them, also You could contact the National Rifle Association they can probably direct You to find such facts. I also seen such things I think maybe it was on the 4H Club for Youth, also the USA Shooting Team has some statements I think, and they have several links to shooting sports for adults, teens and youth.

If you can find and cite for me an objective source--not the NRA--that supplies evidence that kids who are taught to shoot get better grades than kids who do not, I'll admit you're right.

[capchiro]

There is NO way that paintball can be a CAP activity.  That said, there are at least two CAP squadrons that go to Fort Benning and play paintball on the paintball field there.  I don't know if it is advertised as CAP or not, but they are doing it.  I would think that if one were interested in doing something like this OUTSIDE of CAP, they should print up sheets notifying any children or adults attending that this would not be a CAP activity and  then have them sign that they agreed and understood same.  This waiver would not eliminate CAP and/or the Commander/chain of command from being sued, but it would be the beginning of a defense..  Your mileage may vary, but Govern Yourself Accordingly as I am an attorney..

[Eclipse]

As for the 2 senior member rule, this thing is crazy. I know the group commander has said We must have 2 senior members for activities and night activities. Thats the way it's been done since I joined in 06. I wish they would get with it and look at the regulations and decide how is suppose to be done.

There is no regulatory basis for requiring more than one senior member at a cadet activity.  Commanders are free to publish their own, local, SOP's, but barring that its just a wives tale.

52-16 and 52-10 are the documents that govern the cadet program and cadet protection.

As to paintball off-duty, read this thread and probably the 10+ other here and on CS to see that by no means is this a clear situation.  Whenever CAP members gather together for anything, whether or not that gathering becomes a CAP it is a CAP activity, officially or unofficially, might be the subjective call of an IG or judge, especially where it concerns senior members meeting, for whatever reason, with cadets (the 'parent exclusion" not withstanding).

The average senior member has no reason to meet or spend time with the average cadet, and when they "happen to show up at the same place..." no one is fooling anybody and any consequences of the situation are deserved by all parties.

In the Benning situation, I can't see how anyone would think that isn't connected to CAP - how else are they getting access to the base?  Flashing your ID card for access?  Then while you're on base, you're in CAP - 100%, er go...

[JayT]

Cadets could decide as a "group of friends" to go out and do paintball right? If its not on duty with CAP, not an offical squadron activity they could do it that way. I know some of our cadets they do stuff like that off duty from CAP. I like that they decide to do things beyound CAP, brings the friends closer together on duty and off duty.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day actvity not a night.

*sighs, and buries my face in my hands*

No, no no no, no no no no.

Thanks for the reply, are You saying no to the 2 senior member rule? Or no to the off duty paintball?. Because if they did paintball not as CAP or anything to do with CAP, they could. It wouldnt fall under the CAP regs because it wouldnt have a thing to do with CAP, and its also not against any federal or state laws so they would be lawful. That is unless they did something to make it illegal, lol.

As for the 2 senior member rule, this thing is crazy. I know the group commander has said We must have 2 senior members for activities and night activities. Thats the way it's been done since I joined in 06. I wish they would get with it and look at the regulations and decide how is suppose to be done.

What you said is a bunch of bull that fifteen year old cadets periodically try to guard house lawyer.

A group of cadets with an SM present for CAP duty is a CAP activity.

[davidsinn]

Try this one on for size:
My CAP unit was formed from members of my paintball team. We continued to play after the unit was formed. We had both cadets and SMs on the team. Not everyone on the team was in the unit and not everyone in the unit was on the team but there was a significant overlap. The only connection between the two is it consisted of the same people. What say you now? Just because someone is a member of CAP DOES NOT make every time two of them together an official activity. To think otherwise is ludicrous.

[JayT]

Try this one on for size:
My CAP unit was formed from members of my paintball team. We continued to play after the unit was formed. We had both cadets and SMs on the team. Not everyone on the team was in the unit and not everyone in the unit was on the team but there was a significant overlap. The only connection between the two is it consisted of the same people. What say you now? Just because someone is a member of CAP DOES NOT make every time two of them together an official activity. To think otherwise is ludicrous.

I wont disagree with you on that, at all, but if you all show up in CAP uniform, and take off your BDU or service uniform shirt, you're still a CAP member at a CAP activity.

[davidsinn]

Try this one on for size:
My CAP unit was formed from members of my paintball team. We continued to play after the unit was formed. We had both cadets and SMs on the team. Not everyone on the team was in the unit and not everyone in the unit was on the team but there was a significant overlap. The only connection between the two is it consisted of the same people. What say you now? Just because someone is a member of CAP DOES NOT make every time two of them together an official activity. To think otherwise is ludicrous.

I wont disagree with you on that, at all, but if you all show up in CAP uniform, and take off your BDU or service uniform shirt, you're still a CAP member at a CAP activity.

You have a point there.

[SM-MADDOG]

The NRA has all those stats You need and then some. Ever heard of the Eddie Eagle program? Look that up also. I will try to find some things for You to read on it. Just got on here quick and in a few minutes im getting off line. Im not on active duty any more with My agency medical reasons and have been running like a chicken with its head cut off today taking care of stuff. Thanks for the reply, Stay Safe

One place to go to find such stats would be several federal government agencies that hold stats, I will have to find those for You and post them, also You could contact the National Rifle Association they can probably direct You to find such facts. I also seen such things I think maybe it was on the 4H Club for Youth, also the USA Shooting Team has some statements I think, and they have several links to shooting sports for adults, teens and youth.

If you can find and cite for me an objective source--not the NRA--that supplies evidence that kids who are taught to shoot get better grades than kids who do not, I'll admit you're right.

[SM-MADDOG]

If that was a reply to My post Yes my profile is set up that way, sorry, sir or ma'am. Thanks for the reply though.

I tried to send you a PM (Private Message) and take this offline, but you have me blocked from sending you a message.

I'd rather not post what I wrote to you as it isn't something everyone needs to see.