Army badges on CAP uniforms

[hatentx]

What is wrong with service pride?  What is wrong with being proud of what you have done and ocoplisehed for yourself and your country?  Would that not be something we should be showing the Cadets we work with?  I am new to the program and most meetings I attend I am wearing my ACU just for the fac of not haveing my CAP uniforms set up yet and getting off from work I get just enough time to drive from work to the Squadren.  To often do the Cadets ask me questions.  Why do you wear this or that?  What did you have to do to get that badge, was it part of your job training?  You have been to Iraq?  SHowing pride in what you have done is something that should be shown to the Cadets and having them know they have someone who is or possible in places where they want to be in a few year would be huge.  I know someone is going to so that.

I know someone is going to try and make the point that "So you just want to show off and look cool in front of the cadets"  And the answer to that is NO.  But it does let the Cadets know that some of there SM have some experiences to share.  I am one of two Military members in my Squadron the other doesn't attend meetings regularly so I am the only Military face the cadets see other than the old retired guys that hang out.  I think the badges and the pride that go along with the wearing of them is something positive that can be shown to the cadets and I feel there should be no restrictions on them other than the Marksmanship badges, regimental Affiliations and other Service only type things.

[mikeylikey]

^ I vary rarely wear my Army uniforms to CAP meetings.  If I know I am going to be held up at work later than usual, I bring my CAP uniform with me and change at the SQD.  On occasion I may show up in ACU's, but because I am either going back to work for a meeting or have some other business I am attending to after the CAP meeting.  Maybe four or five times a year I will be in ACU's.  Now, I do wear my Class A's or Service Dress for the annual Christmas Holiday Party or I am presenting a Mitchell Award.

I feel that wearing a uniform other than a CAP uniform is distracting to the cadets.  Also, I am attending a CAP meeting, where the regs say I should be wearing a CAP uniform when interacting with Cadets!

I have multiple badges, and bling I could wear on my CAP uniform, but limit it to my Military and Cap ribbons along with my Air Assault.  If I ever decide to fly for CAP I will replace the air assault with the CAP Wings.   

[Stonewall]

What is wrong with service pride?  What is wrong with being proud of what you have done and ocoplisehed for yourself and your country? 

There is nothing wrong with having pride in your service or being proud of your accomplishments.  I happen to agree with being able to wear military badges on CAP uniforms.  Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, CAP does try to mimic the AF uniform instructions to an extent.  And in the AF, folks are not allowed to wear most badges from other branches.  Heck, look at the Marine Corps, they're even more strict on what you can and can't wear from other services.  I had a friend who had a Ranger Tab, EIB, Airborne and Air Assault but was only allowed to wear his jump wings when he joined the Marines.

Regardless of which badges are authorized, you can only wear two skill type badges anyway.  Other badges such as SecDef or CJCS are allowed, but only in blues because they're worn on the pocket and not made for wear on utility uniforms.

[Eclipse]

We're again seeing a microcosm of the problems in CAP.

You ask "what is allowed", generally get a pretty good answer as to "what is allowed", and then immediately people start shouting about what >should< be allowed (or worse, saying "I'll do it anyway...") 

This is a "discussion form", point taken, however multiply these conversations x about 57,000 and you see why we can't get real work done.

We have >a< uniform, it has rules.

Ask the ARC or your local CERT coordinator if you can wear your EIB on your golf shirt and see the response you get.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "service pride", etc., and absolutely everything with following the rules of CAP in the same way the other services expect their members to follow the rules.

[Hawk200]

We're again seeing a microcosm of the problems in CAP.

You ask "what is allowed", generally get a pretty good answer as to "what is allowed", and then immediately people start shouting about what >should< be allowed (or worse, saying "I'll do it anyway...") 

This is a "discussion form", point taken, however multiply these conversations x about 57,000 and you see why we can't get real work done.

We have >a< uniform, it has rules.

Ask the ARC or your local CERT coordinator if you can wear your EIB on your golf shirt and see the response you get.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "service pride", etc., and absolutely everything with following the rules of CAP in the same way the other services expect their members to follow the rules.

Another problem is that people don't make any effort to change the rules. There might be a few things that the Air Force might agree on for our members if only they were asked. So, who's actually asked?

Many people are far happier complaining than they are in attempting to make the change. At least if you try, you have more of a place complaining if someone told you "no".

[PHall]

A quick review of paragraph 1-4 of CAPM 39-1 will tell you how to recommend changes to a CAP uniform.

[flyguy06]

From another thread and a local situation, I've done some research on Army badges worn on the CAP uniform.

From what I have read in both 39-1 and 36-2903, in order to wear military badge on a CAP USAF-style uniform they must meet two criteria.

     A) Be Approved for wear on the USAF uniform.

     B) Be worn in accordance with USAF standards, not the other services.

Assuming the above to be correct, I have come to the following conclusions:

1) The Expert Infantryman's Badge is not authorized for wear by CAP members.

2) The Air Assault badge is not authorized for CAP members.
(Unless the member is also in the USAF or reserves and only "while permanently assigned to and performing duties with other services", which is the only circumstance in which the badge would be USAF authorized in the first place, in other words a rank-and-file member of the army would not be authorized to wear it on a CAP uniform, because it is not authorized for wear normally in the USAF This is indicated in a CAP table.

The Army Weapons Qualification Badges are not authorized for CAP members as they do not appear to be authorized
for wear on any USAF uniform (I can't seem to find reference to them in the AFI anywhere).

I'm looking for anyone to shoot holes in the above, or any specific cites that support it.

I've checked the AFI, 39-1, a few other military forums, and Wikipedia to get to this point.

As an aside to this, if the Air Assault was/is approved for wear, then it would be worn in the place of the GTM or EMT badge to the exclusion of either, respectively, and we never wear badges on our pocket flaps, correct?

My first question is why are you doing research on wearing army badges on CAP uniforms? Are you in the Army?

[Eclipse]

My first question is why are you doing research on wearing army badges on CAP uniforms? Are you in the Army?

No.  I have several members in my units who are misinformed about the regs and are wearing badges and insignia they should not be.

I was about 95% sure of the issue before I asked, however I wanted to make sure I had the whole story.

What I am seeing is that there is a misnomer that any military badges can be worn in the same place they are worn on the other service's uniform, which is obviously not the case.

This idea of piling up badges on the pocket like the army, or doubling up a specialty insignia is very popular as well (i.e. I don't have wings so I can wear an EMT and a GTM, etc.).

[Hawk200]

My first question is why are you doing research on wearing army badges on CAP uniforms? Are you in the Army?

No.  I have several members in my units who are misinformed about the regs and are wearing badges and insignia they should not be.

I was about 95% sure of the issue before I asked, however I wanted to make sure I had the whole story.

What I am seeing is that there is a misnomer that any military badges can be worn in the same place they are worn on the other service's uniform, which is obviously not the case.

This idea of piling up badges on the pocket like the army, or doubling up a specialty insignia is very popular as well (i.e. I don't have wings so I can wear an EMT and a GTM, etc.).

Not very good soldiers if they're pushing that far. There's little things you can get away with if no one knows about them. I don't advocate it, but it's easier dealing with someone wearing one little thing instead of a bunch of things wrong.

[billford1]

Table 6-5 is very clear and part of the 39-1 that is approved by the USAF. There are a number of CAP members I know who earned and wear the CIB and other badges listed in Table 6-5. I'm very certain that if the AF endorsed CAPM39-1 in its present publication then wear of combat badges listed in the table is in keeping with USAF standards.

[Short Field]

What is wrong with service pride?  What is wrong with being proud of what you have done and ocoplisehed for yourself and your country? 

Whats wrong with following the regulations and setting an example for others to follow the regs?

I am new to the program and most meetings I attend I am wearing my ACU just for the fac of not haveing my CAP uniforms set up yet and getting off from work I get just enough time to drive from work to the Squadren. 

That is an excuse - not a reason.

[Hawk200]

What is wrong with service pride?  What is wrong with being proud of what you have done and ocoplisehed for yourself and your country? 

Whats wrong with following the regulations and setting an example for others to follow the regs?

I believe you're looking at his statement out of context. I believe hatentx was questioning why many of the badges from various branches are not permitted. It could be seen as a denial of people displaying hard earned accomplishments for the simple reason that those awards are not Air Force. Those people earned things by working just as hard, or even more so, than some CAP or Air Force badges. It appears to be simple discrimination.

I've proposed a few times that all badges from the military be permitted. Now there would be exceptions, badges that just don't fit CAP or Air Force uniforms such as military marksmanship badges. It could solve a few problems of what's legal, and let people with prior military experience still use what they have, and earned, and happen to be proud of.

Personally, I want to earn a dozen badges. Wear a different one every week. Despite that there are limitations  and stipulations in the manual that I think are perfectly appropriate and should remain.

I have an Army Aviation Badge that I wear, along with an Air Force Maintenance badge. I like having a couple. But there are things in the manual that need to be cleared up, because there are people that question their legitimacy. And we need to have a manual written by people that have some stake in it. Right now, it looks like a dashed together half tail effort that was done with little dedication to it. That needs to change.

[Short Field]

There is nothing wrong with service pride.  MY service pride happens to be either the USMC (short-timer) or the USAF (long-timer).  It may be pride on your part to want to wear your service's badges on my service's uniform - but I see it as disrespect to MY service to not follow the regulations.  As various members keep reminding us, we are the USAF AUX.   If you think there is a question about a badge - ask National and get a ruling.   

I also get upset with USAF members who insist on wearing their USAF uniform to CAP functions - even on weekends for SAREXs.  They manage to disrespect both the USAF and the USAF AUX.  I have a hard time thinking it is a big deal for anyone who graduated basic training to not be able to change uniforms in less than three minutes.

And be an example to Cadets.

[mikeylikey]

I also get upset with USAF members who insist on wearing their USAF uniform to CAP functions - even on weekends for SAREXs. 

However, there are times when it is appropriate to wear the military uniform to CAP functions.  I wear mine when I present a Mitchell Award, or to the anual holiday party and dinning out/in, or when it is more appropriate to be a Military Officer. 

I do agree that the REG states to be in a CAP uniform when conducting the Cadet Program, but during the times I referenced, I am not conducting the Cadet Program, I am an Officer of the US Gov't.  I also sign in as such. 

As far as Sarex's go, I agree with you completely.  Unless you are a CAPRAP or assigned there by CAP-USAF, you have no business showing up in an AF uniform.  You are not representing the AF at the sarex, unless you can produce orders stating that specifically.   

[Major Carrales]

It was my understanding that one was to be in CAP uniform at SARex and other activities to be properly covered by several legal and indeminty reasons.  Thus, if one goes to a SARex in USAF or other military garb; they are in actuality violating convention.

I would consider it a matter of purpose.  In theory, non CAPRAP or other non-CAP-USAF (unless the USAF was present as a participant in the SARex or RED CAP) in their in uniform without purpose or orders are misrepresenting the CAP at a CAP activity to the public.

Am I off base by saying/thinking that?

[mikeylikey]

^ You are correct, and they are misrepresenting the military service they are a member of.  What is interesting is that Reservists and National Guardsman are expected to wear their uniform only when conducting military activities, or carrying orders.  That policy is very lax these days, but I did send a few CAP members home from Encampment and other CAP activities that refused to change into a CAP uniform.  I told them unless they were under orders (or had their unit commanders permission) they should not be there in military uniform.

I try my best to show up at every CAP activity in CAP uniform.  When I am participating in CAP, I am a CAP Officer (who only happens to be an AD military Officer).  I rarely wear my military uniform unless I am performing duties as representative of the military or Fed Gov't.  Once or twice a year I may show up to a weekly SQD meeting in ACU's, but only spend 10 to 15 minutes at the meeting, and am usually heading back to work and HAD to get to the CAP meeting to sign something or resolve major issues. 

I don't like when either enlisted or commissioned members show up at CAP activities, for the sole purpose of showing off the uniform. 

[hatentx]

well I am setting up uniforms up acrording to Capm 39 1.  The reason I have been showing up in Acus are for a few reason.  1 is that I just got my mebership card last week.  when I said new I ment new.  2 is that after I get off from work and drive the hour to meetings I am just getting there in time for it to start.  3rd is that my sqd commander has stated she has no issues with me wearing my Army uniform until my CAP stuff is ready.
I have no issues with following to regulations set forth by CAP.  If I did I wouldn't be part of the organisation.  if I were to pick and choose what regs I followed then what standing would I have to enforce anything with my peers or cadets.
I do however feel that if you eanr a badge or the such it should be permitted.  the badges I have are permitted so It isn't for me to look cool but that is just how I think.  I beloeve it is a positive thing.

[Hawk200]

If you think there is a question about a badge - ask National and get a ruling.

I don't need to contact National for a ruling when the badge is clearly listed in CAPM 39-1. It usually shuts people up when I show them the manual. I've had one person tell me that I wasn't permitted to wear my Air Force maintenance badge. It's not me with the questions, it's idiots that refuse to read the manual

I also get upset with USAF members who insist on wearing their USAF uniform to CAP functions - even on weekends for SAREXs.  They manage to disrespect both the USAF and the USAF AUX.  I have a hard time thinking it is a big deal for anyone who graduated basic training to not be able to change uniforms in less than three minutes.

And be an example to Cadets.

We're definitely on the same page here. I've run into a few of those that presented problems. They were mostly former cadets that wanted to show CAP their measly one or two stripes. Having almost 18 years of service in, I'm not impressed.

Whenever we get military that are interested, I tell them that their uniform is acceptable, but I caution them on what kind of interaction they are permitted with cadets. Keeps me out of trouble, and them too.

[Short Field]

I am a bit of a stickler for the regs - what they say and not someone's interpretation or wish for what the reg says.   If your badge is listed, you will never hear a peep out of me unless I have a mind cramp and misinterpreted or not see it in the reg. 

[Hawk200]

I am a bit of a stickler for the regs - what they say and not someone's interpretation or wish for what the reg says.   If your badge is listed, you will never hear a peep out of me unless I have a mind cramp and misinterpreted or not see it in the reg. 

I can be a bit picky on them myself. What annoys me is the "Oh, someone told me..." group. I usually want to ask them: "Too lazy to read it yourself?" I avoid saying, but I do think it.

The interpretational crowd is yet another issue. Just take the black and white words, and do what they say. You can't really be faulted for taking regs at face value.