Army badges on CAP uniforms

[Eclipse]

From another thread and a local situation, I've done some research on Army badges worn on the CAP uniform.

From what I have read in both 39-1 and 36-2903, in order to wear military badge on a CAP USAF-style uniform they must meet two criteria.

     A) Be Approved for wear on the USAF uniform.

     B) Be worn in accordance with USAF standards, not the other services.

Assuming the above to be correct, I have come to the following conclusions:

1) The Expert Infantryman's Badge is not authorized for wear by CAP members.

2) The Air Assault badge is not authorized for CAP members.
(Unless the member is also in the USAF or reserves and only "while permanently assigned to and performing duties with other services", which is the only circumstance in which the badge would be USAF authorized in the first place, in other words a rank-and-file member of the army would not be authorized to wear it on a CAP uniform, because it is not authorized for wear normally in the USAF This is indicated in a CAP table.

The Army Weapons Qualification Badges are not authorized for CAP members as they do not appear to be authorized
for wear on any USAF uniform (I can't seem to find reference to them in the AFI anywhere).

I'm looking for anyone to shoot holes in the above, or any specific cites that support it.

I've checked the AFI, 39-1, a few other military forums, and Wikipedia to get to this point.

As an aside to this, if the Air Assault was/is approved for wear, then it would be worn in the place of the GTM or EMT badge to the exclusion of either, respectively, and we never wear badges on our pocket flaps, correct?

[mikeylikey]

I wear my Air Assault.  Table 6-5, page 116, 39-1, 2005. 

[mikeylikey]

Oh.....How I hate the edit button!  Now I look like I have no idea what I am typing about   

[jb512]

I would guess that after a call to national, he'd be able to wear his EIB and Air Assault wings, but nothing on the pocket flap (the EIB isn't listed on the table).  If he wanted to wear the EMT, it would take the place of the Air Assault.

[NIN]

Hmmm.

I agree with the weapons qualifications badges.  They're just not worn on the USAF uniform. Period.

And badges aren't worn on the pocket flap on CAP USAF-style uniforms.  So, yeah, that's out.

I don't recall that the dope-on-a-rope badge was in that "only worn when you're in a unit that wears it" (ie. you're a TACP assigned to the 101st..) category.  I know the rigger badge is.  I always assumed that the Bullwinkle Badge was classified the same as Airborne wings. I could be wrong.

Speaking as a guy who wears the Army Aviation badge (which is authorized), I know that aviation wings are allowed.

Or at least, they were 20 years ago.  Hope they are still....

[MIKE]

One could argue that CAPM 39-1s own wording invalidates both Table 6-5. and the magic 8-ball, since a badge can't be worn as prescribed by the USAF if it is not prescribed by USAF.

[Eclipse]

The Air Assault is indicated in a table, so no point in arguing it, though by USAF rules, I think it would not be allowed.

As to the EIB, as said, since it is not currently allowed by the USAF, it should not be allowed for us.

[jb512]

I didn't know that the EIB wasn't allowed by the AF.  I guess it's kinda like an occupational badge much like the AF has which aren't allowed by other services.

[Eclipse]

I suppose you could kind of view it that way - the uber-infantryman based on exhibition of high skill in that specialty.

From what I have read, the award is sometimes considered more prestigious (from a distance), because its an indication
of specific training and proficiency, vs. the CIB which can be awarded to infantryman in combat with less specific proficiency.

But regardless, it is apparently not authorized for wear by the USAF, so not for us either.

[PHall]

The Army markmanship badges are not allowed on the Air Force uniform because the Air Force has the Small Arms Expert Markmanship Ribbon.
The ribbon replaces the markmanship badge only if you shot expert, otherwise you're SOL.
And the only authorised attachment is a 3/16" bronze star if you have shot expert on more then one weapon.

And this does not mean that if you served in the Army that you can wear the Air Force ribbon on your CAP uniform.
You gotta serve in one of the branches of the Air Force (Active, Guard, Reserve) to be able to wear the ribbon.

In short, you have to have a DD214 or other written order awarding you the ribbon before you can wear it on your CAP uniform.

[Hawk200]

As an aside to this, if the Air Assault was/is approved for wear, then it would be worn in the place of the GTM or EMT badge to the exclusion of either, respectively, and we never wear badges on our pocket flaps, correct?

As far as "exclusion" goes, it only applies to an individual uniform. I've run into people that believe that if you wear the GT badge, and a set of wings, then you're not permitted to ever wear any other type of badge on any other uniform. Which is a serious misunderstanding of the term.

Me, if I have CAP badges, I'll probably wear them on one utility, and my military ones on another. May get crazy and wear one of each on still another uniform. All depends on how the color coordination works out.

[Major Carrales]

Marksmanship badges on a CAP uniform?  Why is it forbidden?  Why should it be allowed?  Let's take this to the debate level since the issue is not really "Army badges," but Marksmanship Badges from the U.S. Army and U.S. Marines.

[Eclipse]

As an aside to this, if the Air Assault was/is approved for wear, then it would be worn in the place of the GTM or EMT badge to the exclusion of either, respectively, and we never wear badges on our pocket flaps, correct?

As far as "exclusion" goes, it only applies to an individual uniform. I've run into people that believe that if you wear the GT badge, and a set of wings, then you're not permitted to ever wear any other type of badge on any other uniform. Which is a serious misunderstanding of the term.

Me, if I have CAP badges, I'll probably wear them on one utility, and my military ones on another. May get crazy and wear one of each on still another uniform. All depends on how the color coordination works out.

Right.

If you want to swap things around, wear something different on your service jacket from your short sleeve shirt, etc., no problem.

[MIKE]

Marksmanship badges on a CAP uniform?  Why is it forbidden?  Why should it be allowed?  Let's take this to the debate level since the issue is not really "Army badges," but Marksmanship Badges from the U.S. Army and U.S. Marines.

Let me just say that they look really out of place on a set of trops... As does a CIB.

[Hawk200]

Marksmanship badges on a CAP uniform?  Why is it forbidden?  Why should it be allowed?  Let's take this to the debate level since the issue is not really "Army badges," but Marksmanship Badges from the U.S. Army and U.S. Marines.

Only certain marksmanship badges are permitted, those being the Civilian Marksmanship Program badges. Pretty much every branch has a variation of the same basic badges with their specific branch on it (The Air Force bronze Excellence in Competition badge actually says "U.S. Air Force", the Army one says "U.S. Army", and so on....).

Marksmanship badges from other services are not permitted as the Air Force uses a ribbon to denote marksmanship as opposed to a badge. It is only for the Expert level, not broken down to something like basic, sharpshooter, expert as the Army does it (don't know what the specific Marine ones are, or how they are scored).

The CMP badges authorized on Air Force uniforms tend to look out of place, because only a very small few have them. Many people are rather begrudging of the bling, because they don't have the ability or the opportunity to earn them as well. But that's life, not everyone has the same opportunities as everyone else.

[Trung Si Ma]

Let me just say that they look really out of place on a set of trops... As does a CIB.

The CIB never looks out of place.

When I commanded the Fayetteville Composite Squadron back in the 80's, we had a piece of paper from National stating that the EIB was legal for wear.  This was important since most of my seniors were in the 82nd.  I think NCWG thought that the parachutist badge was our squadron patch.

[Dad2-4]

And the NRA marksmanship program badges are allowed for cadets. I think they look strange hanging on a USAF uniform, too JROTC-esque for me.
(Ref: CAPR 39-1, Table 6-2, Item 11)

[Stonewall]

The CIB and other Army badges was allowed by the AF up until a few years ago.  I was called on something when I argued the CIB was legit in the AF until I read the newest of the newer regs.  I was looking at an '03 AFI and the '06 one had since taken over....or something like that.

At one time, the Air Assault badge was authorized in CAP.  In fact, I thought it still was.  But at one point it actually authorized it by name.

EIB, as far as I'm concerned, has never been authorized by the AF.  The AFI did, however, say that the Expert Combat Medic Badge was authorized.  So again, you had someone who knew nothing about other service badges saying what was and wasn't good to go in the AF.

[hatentx]

i dont see why any other military badges are not allowed.  I understand something that are just Army or just Navy sucj as Regimental Affilations but as if comes to skill or combat badges I dont see an issue.  If you have a EIB, CIB, CAB, I would say wear it (if I were making the rules) Im not even making the issue of Combat Patches but as it comes to badges why is there a big deal. 

[Major Carrales]

i dont see why any other military badges are not allowed.  I understand something that are just Army or just Navy sucj as Regimental Affilations but as if comes to skill or combat badges I dont see an issue.  If you have a EIB, CIB, CAB, I would say wear it (if I were making the rules) Im not even making the issue of Combat Patches but as it comes to badges why is there a big deal. 

There are some that think there are already too many things on the uniform.  There are many that think we shouldn't even be allowed to wear uniforms at all.  There are some that would ask "why do we need combat badges for what we do."  I imagine some might be jealous that someone has one of these and not them.  There are even those that see it as a "service pride" thing.

The answer to that question is quite broad...I don't know if we can answer it here properly.

[hatentx]

What is wrong with service pride?  What is wrong with being proud of what you have done and ocoplisehed for yourself and your country?  Would that not be something we should be showing the Cadets we work with?  I am new to the program and most meetings I attend I am wearing my ACU just for the fac of not haveing my CAP uniforms set up yet and getting off from work I get just enough time to drive from work to the Squadren.  To often do the Cadets ask me questions.  Why do you wear this or that?  What did you have to do to get that badge, was it part of your job training?  You have been to Iraq?  SHowing pride in what you have done is something that should be shown to the Cadets and having them know they have someone who is or possible in places where they want to be in a few year would be huge.  I know someone is going to so that.

I know someone is going to try and make the point that "So you just want to show off and look cool in front of the cadets"  And the answer to that is NO.  But it does let the Cadets know that some of there SM have some experiences to share.  I am one of two Military members in my Squadron the other doesn't attend meetings regularly so I am the only Military face the cadets see other than the old retired guys that hang out.  I think the badges and the pride that go along with the wearing of them is something positive that can be shown to the cadets and I feel there should be no restrictions on them other than the Marksmanship badges, regimental Affiliations and other Service only type things.

[mikeylikey]

^ I vary rarely wear my Army uniforms to CAP meetings.  If I know I am going to be held up at work later than usual, I bring my CAP uniform with me and change at the SQD.  On occasion I may show up in ACU's, but because I am either going back to work for a meeting or have some other business I am attending to after the CAP meeting.  Maybe four or five times a year I will be in ACU's.  Now, I do wear my Class A's or Service Dress for the annual Christmas Holiday Party or I am presenting a Mitchell Award.

I feel that wearing a uniform other than a CAP uniform is distracting to the cadets.  Also, I am attending a CAP meeting, where the regs say I should be wearing a CAP uniform when interacting with Cadets!

I have multiple badges, and bling I could wear on my CAP uniform, but limit it to my Military and Cap ribbons along with my Air Assault.  If I ever decide to fly for CAP I will replace the air assault with the CAP Wings.   

[Stonewall]

What is wrong with service pride?  What is wrong with being proud of what you have done and ocoplisehed for yourself and your country? 

There is nothing wrong with having pride in your service or being proud of your accomplishments.  I happen to agree with being able to wear military badges on CAP uniforms.  Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, CAP does try to mimic the AF uniform instructions to an extent.  And in the AF, folks are not allowed to wear most badges from other branches.  Heck, look at the Marine Corps, they're even more strict on what you can and can't wear from other services.  I had a friend who had a Ranger Tab, EIB, Airborne and Air Assault but was only allowed to wear his jump wings when he joined the Marines.

Regardless of which badges are authorized, you can only wear two skill type badges anyway.  Other badges such as SecDef or CJCS are allowed, but only in blues because they're worn on the pocket and not made for wear on utility uniforms.

[Eclipse]

We're again seeing a microcosm of the problems in CAP.

You ask "what is allowed", generally get a pretty good answer as to "what is allowed", and then immediately people start shouting about what >should< be allowed (or worse, saying "I'll do it anyway...") 

This is a "discussion form", point taken, however multiply these conversations x about 57,000 and you see why we can't get real work done.

We have >a< uniform, it has rules.

Ask the ARC or your local CERT coordinator if you can wear your EIB on your golf shirt and see the response you get.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "service pride", etc., and absolutely everything with following the rules of CAP in the same way the other services expect their members to follow the rules.

[Hawk200]

We're again seeing a microcosm of the problems in CAP.

You ask "what is allowed", generally get a pretty good answer as to "what is allowed", and then immediately people start shouting about what >should< be allowed (or worse, saying "I'll do it anyway...") 

This is a "discussion form", point taken, however multiply these conversations x about 57,000 and you see why we can't get real work done.

We have >a< uniform, it has rules.

Ask the ARC or your local CERT coordinator if you can wear your EIB on your golf shirt and see the response you get.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "service pride", etc., and absolutely everything with following the rules of CAP in the same way the other services expect their members to follow the rules.

Another problem is that people don't make any effort to change the rules. There might be a few things that the Air Force might agree on for our members if only they were asked. So, who's actually asked?

Many people are far happier complaining than they are in attempting to make the change. At least if you try, you have more of a place complaining if someone told you "no".

[PHall]

A quick review of paragraph 1-4 of CAPM 39-1 will tell you how to recommend changes to a CAP uniform.

[flyguy06]

From another thread and a local situation, I've done some research on Army badges worn on the CAP uniform.

From what I have read in both 39-1 and 36-2903, in order to wear military badge on a CAP USAF-style uniform they must meet two criteria.

     A) Be Approved for wear on the USAF uniform.

     B) Be worn in accordance with USAF standards, not the other services.

Assuming the above to be correct, I have come to the following conclusions:

1) The Expert Infantryman's Badge is not authorized for wear by CAP members.

2) The Air Assault badge is not authorized for CAP members.
(Unless the member is also in the USAF or reserves and only "while permanently assigned to and performing duties with other services", which is the only circumstance in which the badge would be USAF authorized in the first place, in other words a rank-and-file member of the army would not be authorized to wear it on a CAP uniform, because it is not authorized for wear normally in the USAF This is indicated in a CAP table.

The Army Weapons Qualification Badges are not authorized for CAP members as they do not appear to be authorized
for wear on any USAF uniform (I can't seem to find reference to them in the AFI anywhere).

I'm looking for anyone to shoot holes in the above, or any specific cites that support it.

I've checked the AFI, 39-1, a few other military forums, and Wikipedia to get to this point.

As an aside to this, if the Air Assault was/is approved for wear, then it would be worn in the place of the GTM or EMT badge to the exclusion of either, respectively, and we never wear badges on our pocket flaps, correct?

My first question is why are you doing research on wearing army badges on CAP uniforms? Are you in the Army?

[Eclipse]

My first question is why are you doing research on wearing army badges on CAP uniforms? Are you in the Army?

No.  I have several members in my units who are misinformed about the regs and are wearing badges and insignia they should not be.

I was about 95% sure of the issue before I asked, however I wanted to make sure I had the whole story.

What I am seeing is that there is a misnomer that any military badges can be worn in the same place they are worn on the other service's uniform, which is obviously not the case.

This idea of piling up badges on the pocket like the army, or doubling up a specialty insignia is very popular as well (i.e. I don't have wings so I can wear an EMT and a GTM, etc.).

[Hawk200]

My first question is why are you doing research on wearing army badges on CAP uniforms? Are you in the Army?

No.  I have several members in my units who are misinformed about the regs and are wearing badges and insignia they should not be.

I was about 95% sure of the issue before I asked, however I wanted to make sure I had the whole story.

What I am seeing is that there is a misnomer that any military badges can be worn in the same place they are worn on the other service's uniform, which is obviously not the case.

This idea of piling up badges on the pocket like the army, or doubling up a specialty insignia is very popular as well (i.e. I don't have wings so I can wear an EMT and a GTM, etc.).

Not very good soldiers if they're pushing that far. There's little things you can get away with if no one knows about them. I don't advocate it, but it's easier dealing with someone wearing one little thing instead of a bunch of things wrong.

[billford1]

Table 6-5 is very clear and part of the 39-1 that is approved by the USAF. There are a number of CAP members I know who earned and wear the CIB and other badges listed in Table 6-5. I'm very certain that if the AF endorsed CAPM39-1 in its present publication then wear of combat badges listed in the table is in keeping with USAF standards.

[Short Field]

What is wrong with service pride?  What is wrong with being proud of what you have done and ocoplisehed for yourself and your country? 

Whats wrong with following the regulations and setting an example for others to follow the regs?

I am new to the program and most meetings I attend I am wearing my ACU just for the fac of not haveing my CAP uniforms set up yet and getting off from work I get just enough time to drive from work to the Squadren. 

That is an excuse - not a reason.

[Hawk200]

What is wrong with service pride?  What is wrong with being proud of what you have done and ocoplisehed for yourself and your country? 

Whats wrong with following the regulations and setting an example for others to follow the regs?

I believe you're looking at his statement out of context. I believe hatentx was questioning why many of the badges from various branches are not permitted. It could be seen as a denial of people displaying hard earned accomplishments for the simple reason that those awards are not Air Force. Those people earned things by working just as hard, or even more so, than some CAP or Air Force badges. It appears to be simple discrimination.

I've proposed a few times that all badges from the military be permitted. Now there would be exceptions, badges that just don't fit CAP or Air Force uniforms such as military marksmanship badges. It could solve a few problems of what's legal, and let people with prior military experience still use what they have, and earned, and happen to be proud of.

Personally, I want to earn a dozen badges. Wear a different one every week. Despite that there are limitations  and stipulations in the manual that I think are perfectly appropriate and should remain.

I have an Army Aviation Badge that I wear, along with an Air Force Maintenance badge. I like having a couple. But there are things in the manual that need to be cleared up, because there are people that question their legitimacy. And we need to have a manual written by people that have some stake in it. Right now, it looks like a dashed together half tail effort that was done with little dedication to it. That needs to change.

[Short Field]

There is nothing wrong with service pride.  MY service pride happens to be either the USMC (short-timer) or the USAF (long-timer).  It may be pride on your part to want to wear your service's badges on my service's uniform - but I see it as disrespect to MY service to not follow the regulations.  As various members keep reminding us, we are the USAF AUX.   If you think there is a question about a badge - ask National and get a ruling.   

I also get upset with USAF members who insist on wearing their USAF uniform to CAP functions - even on weekends for SAREXs.  They manage to disrespect both the USAF and the USAF AUX.  I have a hard time thinking it is a big deal for anyone who graduated basic training to not be able to change uniforms in less than three minutes.

And be an example to Cadets.

[mikeylikey]

I also get upset with USAF members who insist on wearing their USAF uniform to CAP functions - even on weekends for SAREXs. 

However, there are times when it is appropriate to wear the military uniform to CAP functions.  I wear mine when I present a Mitchell Award, or to the anual holiday party and dinning out/in, or when it is more appropriate to be a Military Officer. 

I do agree that the REG states to be in a CAP uniform when conducting the Cadet Program, but during the times I referenced, I am not conducting the Cadet Program, I am an Officer of the US Gov't.  I also sign in as such. 

As far as Sarex's go, I agree with you completely.  Unless you are a CAPRAP or assigned there by CAP-USAF, you have no business showing up in an AF uniform.  You are not representing the AF at the sarex, unless you can produce orders stating that specifically.   

[Major Carrales]

It was my understanding that one was to be in CAP uniform at SARex and other activities to be properly covered by several legal and indeminty reasons.  Thus, if one goes to a SARex in USAF or other military garb; they are in actuality violating convention.

I would consider it a matter of purpose.  In theory, non CAPRAP or other non-CAP-USAF (unless the USAF was present as a participant in the SARex or RED CAP) in their in uniform without purpose or orders are misrepresenting the CAP at a CAP activity to the public.

Am I off base by saying/thinking that?

[mikeylikey]

^ You are correct, and they are misrepresenting the military service they are a member of.  What is interesting is that Reservists and National Guardsman are expected to wear their uniform only when conducting military activities, or carrying orders.  That policy is very lax these days, but I did send a few CAP members home from Encampment and other CAP activities that refused to change into a CAP uniform.  I told them unless they were under orders (or had their unit commanders permission) they should not be there in military uniform.

I try my best to show up at every CAP activity in CAP uniform.  When I am participating in CAP, I am a CAP Officer (who only happens to be an AD military Officer).  I rarely wear my military uniform unless I am performing duties as representative of the military or Fed Gov't.  Once or twice a year I may show up to a weekly SQD meeting in ACU's, but only spend 10 to 15 minutes at the meeting, and am usually heading back to work and HAD to get to the CAP meeting to sign something or resolve major issues. 

I don't like when either enlisted or commissioned members show up at CAP activities, for the sole purpose of showing off the uniform. 

[hatentx]

well I am setting up uniforms up acrording to Capm 39 1.  The reason I have been showing up in Acus are for a few reason.  1 is that I just got my mebership card last week.  when I said new I ment new.  2 is that after I get off from work and drive the hour to meetings I am just getting there in time for it to start.  3rd is that my sqd commander has stated she has no issues with me wearing my Army uniform until my CAP stuff is ready.
I have no issues with following to regulations set forth by CAP.  If I did I wouldn't be part of the organisation.  if I were to pick and choose what regs I followed then what standing would I have to enforce anything with my peers or cadets.
I do however feel that if you eanr a badge or the such it should be permitted.  the badges I have are permitted so It isn't for me to look cool but that is just how I think.  I beloeve it is a positive thing.

[Hawk200]

If you think there is a question about a badge - ask National and get a ruling.

I don't need to contact National for a ruling when the badge is clearly listed in CAPM 39-1. It usually shuts people up when I show them the manual. I've had one person tell me that I wasn't permitted to wear my Air Force maintenance badge. It's not me with the questions, it's idiots that refuse to read the manual

I also get upset with USAF members who insist on wearing their USAF uniform to CAP functions - even on weekends for SAREXs.  They manage to disrespect both the USAF and the USAF AUX.  I have a hard time thinking it is a big deal for anyone who graduated basic training to not be able to change uniforms in less than three minutes.

And be an example to Cadets.

We're definitely on the same page here. I've run into a few of those that presented problems. They were mostly former cadets that wanted to show CAP their measly one or two stripes. Having almost 18 years of service in, I'm not impressed.

Whenever we get military that are interested, I tell them that their uniform is acceptable, but I caution them on what kind of interaction they are permitted with cadets. Keeps me out of trouble, and them too.

[Short Field]

I am a bit of a stickler for the regs - what they say and not someone's interpretation or wish for what the reg says.   If your badge is listed, you will never hear a peep out of me unless I have a mind cramp and misinterpreted or not see it in the reg. 

[Hawk200]

I am a bit of a stickler for the regs - what they say and not someone's interpretation or wish for what the reg says.   If your badge is listed, you will never hear a peep out of me unless I have a mind cramp and misinterpreted or not see it in the reg. 

I can be a bit picky on them myself. What annoys me is the "Oh, someone told me..." group. I usually want to ask them: "Too lazy to read it yourself?" I avoid saying, but I do think it.

The interpretational crowd is yet another issue. Just take the black and white words, and do what they say. You can't really be faulted for taking regs at face value.

[DNall]

The Army markmanship badges are not allowed on the Air Force uniform because the Air Force has the Small Arms Expert Markmanship Ribbon.
The ribbon replaces the markmanship badge only if you shot expert, otherwise you're SOL.
And the only authorised attachment is a 3/16" bronze star if you have shot expert on more then one weapon.

And this does not mean that if you served in the Army that you can wear the Air Force ribbon on your CAP uniform.
You gotta serve in one of the branches of the Air Force (Active, Guard, Reserve) to be able to wear the ribbon.

In short, you have to have a DD214 or other written order awarding you the ribbon before you can wear it on your CAP uniform.

This is true. The issue is Army personnel moving over to AF would be awarded the AF ribbon to replace the badges. Same w/ CAB/CIB replaced by AF Combat Action Ribbon (same deal if Army went Navy/Marine/CG), and vice versa. CAP is stuck in the middle cause the AF will not award a ribbon to non-AF personnel based on previous other service accomplishments.

The notorious table in 39-1 is based off a much older version of the AF reg. The AF has since tightened up the standards for wear of those items. The table it out-dated and should be brought into line with the current AF reg. If that happens then CIB, CAB, etc would go away in CAP - sorry folks.

Another problem is that people don't make any effort to change the rules. There might be a few things that the Air Force might agree on for our members if only they were asked. So, who's actually asked?

True. But, the bigger issue I see is people that don't have the discipline to just follow the rules as written, including commander's (in this case AF) intent. If they'd do that first, then we might be able to have a discussion about changing things for the better. And in doing that, they'd drastically improve a lot of problems in our org and our relationship w/ our parent service.

[mikeylikey]

I hate to be the one to say it, but CAP is not the AF (like many here always point out to me).  Do we really need to follow AF rules here?  Wouldn't it be easier to say "AD/Guard/Reserve members on AD/ Reserve or Guard Duty and retired/ discharged members may wear any and all Ribbons, and badges earned through any and all uniformed service to the United States".

CAP is CAP.......CAP is NOT the USAF. 

Especially on the corporate uniforms, wear everything earned. 

Heck.......the AF wants our AF-style to be drastically different than the AF uniforms, this would do it!!!!! 

[DNall]

I hate to be the one to say it, but CAP is not the AF...

It really has ZERO to do with that in any way shape or form.

It is an AF uniform, controlled completely by the AF (and federal law). They demand that it be worn in accordance with the same rules they apply to their personnel. That's a simple & easily applied standard. It should be a complement that they hold us to their standard, that they consider it their uniform (rather than that of an independent org), and should in general demonstrate that they care.

The corporate-style uniform is another issue all together. The alternative "uniforms" were originally standard business attire (not uniforms) with an added nametag or two. The original intent was not ever supposed to be a full-up alternative to AF-style uniforms. It has, however, grown into that in the last 10 years.

To my knowledge, the AF has never expressed any approval or disapproval of having actual corporate-style uniforms versus professional business attire. However they have upheld their interpretation of law regarding wear of military devices on non-military controlled uniforms (versus distinctively civilian attire). They have not as far as I know been overly forceful about the position. Rather it has been CAP that put this out.

Basically, CAP didn't like the rules the AF forced them to live under, so they found a loop-hole to do their own thing, and then did it in a way to piss off the AF the least. That's perfectly in character for CAP & the definitive problem that remains in our relationship with the AF (far beyond uniform issues). You know barracks lawyering is a bad thing. That's what this is on a grand scale.

[mikeylikey]

It is an AF uniform, controlled completely by the AF (and federal law). They demand that it be worn in accordance with the same rules they apply to their personnel.

But they do not, or it would be a chapter in the AF uniform reg.  Or our 39-1 would reflect AF guidance, but it does not.  The last published copy was 2005, which included the wear of badges and insignia on the AF-style that the AF does not even allow.  So the whole "follow AF guidelines found in their regs" is total crap.  There are Army badges that can be worn on the AF Service Jacket as a CAP member, that can not be worn on the AF Service Jacket as an AF member.   

[RiverAux]

Even if we don't follow the AF way, we do get AF approval to be at odds with their way of doing things....

[Hawk200]

There are Army badges that can be worn on the AF Service Jacket as a CAP member, that can not be worn on the AF Service Jacket as an AF member. 

Not just the jackets, but other uniforms, too. "Sister" service badges are not permitted on the ABU. Not certain about flightsuits, or med and food service whites, but I imagine it carries over. There are compatible insignia available for those uniforms for other branch badges, but they aren't permitted. An example of the Air Force wanting to play joint ops, just don't want to allow anything from other services.

Same w/ CAB/CIB replaced by AF Combat Action Ribbon (same deal if Army went Navy/Marine/CG), and vice versa.

Is there a message on this? I know the Marine Corps has such a policy, but I didn't know the Air Force had enacted one.

[heliodoc]

You know I had a pretty good life in the USAR ARNG Aviation program when the Reserve system went to "off site " agreement in'93-'95 era

I got my master Aircrew member badge after the 17 year mark and retired after 21 years.

Got back into CAP after a 22 yr hiatus after being a cadet in former life..

You know what, after reading all the posts, what is the deal with all you bling meisters???

CAP uni is a CAP uni......................"governed" by the USAF or at least it is supposed to be only to to be end run by CAP blingmeisters.  What in tarnation is the deal??

I got a DD 214, too.  But I really got to face reality and leave it off my CAP uniform.  I served my country, and tell people of my service only when someone is interested. If I HAVE to put my Aircrew badge on my CAP uni, then I will..  I served in Army Aviation Loud and Proud.  Got all the Army tshirts and combat boots that I wanted.

Guess what?? Doesn't make me more or less of a CAP member if I leave my Army bling off!!!!!!

[NIN]

I wear my Army bling (well, my aircrew wings) more because it shows a little "flying cred" in the face of the flying club-types.    Since I don't have any other Army badges (bullwinkle, parachute, etc), and just a GTL badge, it balances things a little.





Plus, you know, at least my uniform looks more correct now (for years I eshewed the subdued sew-on badge in favor of the old "white on OD" which at least looked "mostly correct."  I don't like to mix-n-match)

[DNall]

It is an AF uniform, controlled completely by the AF (and federal law). They demand that it be worn in accordance with the same rules they apply to their personnel.

But they do not, or it would be a chapter in the AF uniform reg.  Or our 39-1 would reflect AF guidance, but it does not.  The last published copy was 2005, which included the wear of badges and insignia on the AF-style that the AF does not even allow.  So the whole "follow AF guidelines found in their regs" is total crap.  There are Army badges that can be worn on the AF Service Jacket as a CAP member, that can not be worn on the AF Service Jacket as an AF member.   

That would make more sense, but when have you known things in the military, especially regulations, to make sense.

They do have legal authority over the uniform and they do regulate it through their uniform board & air staff approval/disapproval & directed actions on CAP changes to our BDUs/Blues.

Our 39-1 is very obviously out of date by a long time now. The table was not corrected (the issue wasn't raised at the time) when the last 39-1 came out. It is however out of synch with the current AF reg & should be corrected to reflect AF guidance. That's just a lack of attention to detail on CAP's part - and frankly the AF too, but I'm a little more understanding of it being low on their radar.

It's not a matter of follow AF guidance found in their regs just because. That's the AF's stated policy regarding uniforms (as opposed to non-uniform issues). However, I would also draw your attention to some other items of policy. The non-discrimination type stuff for instance. We are legally bound to comply with AF regs on that, regardless of CAP regs. That's stated repeated in NHQ policy guidance. Just an example.

Same w/ CAB/CIB replaced by AF Combat Action Ribbon (same deal if Army went Navy/Marine/CG), and vice versa.

Is there a message on this? I know the Marine Corps has such a policy, but I didn't know the Air Force had enacted one.

I couldn't quote you the policy. The CAR is new to the AF, and my understanding from some folks that should know is that it's following the same Marine vs Army policy. I don't know of cases where it's been applied to folks coming over from Army to AF - mainly cause AF is not accepting prior-service virtually at all right now. But, I do know of cases where AF personnel were awarded CAB by the Army then had the AF turn it into CAR.

[SAR-EMT1]

I wear my Army bling (well, my aircrew wings) more because it shows a little "flying cred" in the face of the flying club-types.    Since I don't have any other Army badges (bullwinkle, parachute, etc), and just a GTL badge, it balances things a little.





Plus, you know, at least my uniform looks more correct now (for years I eshewed the subdued sew-on badge in favor of the old "white on OD" which at least looked "mostly correct."  I don't like to mix-n-match)

Awesome

[tkelley004]

The Combat Action Badge (CAB) and Combat Action Medal (CAM) are not equal, it is "eaiser" to get the CAB than the medal. I know of cases were the Army has awared the CAB to an Airman, but they were denied the CAM. The CAB then becomes a nice thing to put on your wall, but it is not authorized to be worn on the Air Force Uniform

CAB:

III. AWARD ELIGIBILITY: The Combat Action Badge (CAB) may be awarded by any commander delegated authority by the Secretary of the Army during wartime or the CG, U.S. Army Human Resources Command and will be announced in permanent orders.

(1) The requirements for award of the CAB are Branch and MOS immaterial. Assignment to a Combat Arms unit or a unit organized to conduct close or offensive combat operations, or performing offensive combat operations is not required to qualify for the CAB. However, it is not intended to award all soldiers who serve in a combat zone or imminent danger area.

(2) Specific Eligibility Requirements:

a. May be awarded to any soldier.

b. Soldier must be performing assigned duties in an area where hostile fire pay or imminent danger pay is authorized.

c. Soldier must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement.

d. Soldier must not be assigned/attached to a unit that would qualify the soldier for the CIB/CMB a Combat Action Badge is not Equal to the Combat

>>>>>so if at a forward base, the bad guy lob a few mortars at the base, you take cover, man your post or whatever.... CAB. (this is not ment to lessen the service of any one, you can die in a war zone doing anything... or nothing.....) The Army acknowledges this with the CAB

Now the AFCAM
Criteria:

Combat conditions defined:
For the purposes of this award, the combat conditions are met when:
-- Individual(s) deliberately go outside the defended perimeter to conduct official duties - either ground or air, and
-- Come under enemy attack by lethal weapons while performing those duties, and
-- Are at risk of grave danger

Or

-- Individual(s) are defending the base (on the defended perimeter), and
-- Come under fire and engage the enemy with direct and lethal fire, and
-- Are at risk of grave danger; also meet the intent of combat conditions for the award

Additionally, personnel in ground operations who actively engage the enemy with direct and lethal fire may qualify even if no direct fire is taken--as long as there was risk of grave danger and other criteria are met. Central to the integrity of this combat recognition is the adherence to these combat conditions prerequisites.

Criteria - ground:
-- Individual must be in combat conditions as defined in combat conditions defined above. Combat must take place in a combat zone defined as a geographic area designated by the president via executive order or a qualified hazardous duty area in which a member is receiving Imminent Danger Pay or Hostile Fire Pay. Individual must be physically present, at risk of grave danger and performing in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement
-- Personnel outside the defended perimeter must be fired upon by the enemy with lethal weapons; returning fire is situation dependent and not necessarily a precondition of award. Risk of grave danger to the individual must be detailed in the award submission
-- Encampments, compounds and protected areas (inside the defended perimeter) will normally not qualify as venues for this award unless the individual is serving in a defensive capacity, taking fire and engaging the enemy. Augmenting a defensive fighting position and taking fire, regardless official duties, would also qualify as combat action if all other criteria were met. Receiving mortars, responding to alarm condition, reporting to bunkers, do not independently constitute combat action for the purpose of this award. However, should combat conditions arise out of such events then exceptions to policy with full justification can be submitted
-- Personnel eligible for the award of the Purple Heart do not automatically qualify for the combat action medal. Purple Heart recipients must apply for the AFCAM through the appropriate award channels.

Criteria - air:
-- Individual must be flying as authorized aircrew members on aeronautical orders in direct support of a combat zone and in combat as define in combat conditions. Combat must take place in a combat zone defined as a geographic area designated by the president via executive order or a qualified hazardous duty area in which a member is receiving Imminent Danger Pay or Hostile Fire Pay. Individual must be physically present, at risk of grave danger and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement
-- Individual must be performing assigned duties. Traveling passengers, including aircrew manifested as passengers, on an aircraft are not eligible based solely on their presence if the aircraft were to come under fire.

See the difference.....

[DNall]

^ roger, but an Army commander isn't going to initiate for award of an AF CAM or Navy/MC CAR on an attached airman/sailor/marine. They are going to award a CAB, and let the sister service sort it out. It'd be a function of the citation to meet the reqs. Likewise, if a soldier with CAB were to come over to the AF, it'd be up to him to justify award of CAM based on his past CAB citation.

Point being, CAB should not be authorized on CAP uniforms cause it specifically is not auth on AF uniforms. Likewise, CIB is no longer auth on AF uniforms under the newer reg, so should be removed from the table in 39-1. And, CAP members cannot gain an AF ribbon to take the place of a past sister service award (mostly marksman or combat service badges), because they are not physically in the AF. So, suck it up & charlie mike. You prob got plenty other cool guy crap to let people know you once did it for real.

[hatentx]

I can see your point on allowing the CAB and such on the uniform being that is it not in AF Regs.  However there are things that are different between the AF uniform and the CAP uniform.  Things like the flag would be one just to start out with.  I know I have seen other threads on this and am not trying to start this discussion, just making a point. 

CAP has more prior service members than the AF does and I think in the regulations this should be taking into account.  Again as I have said before I get to wear all my bells and whistles other than a Combat Patch which I can see that side of things.  I would hate to put that 7 in bright yellow patch on anyways.  But when it comes to skill badges and such I honestly think there should be some changes.  Regardless of the service you are coming from you should be allowed to wear such badges and awards. 

I do agree that if you were to be wearing the awards and they not be authorized then you should be himmed up for it but other than that I wouldn't mind seeing these changes in the regulations.  I know it isnt a huge thing for me being I get to wear all my junk but I guess it just seems odd to me as a Army guy who sees AF and other service badges on a daily basis why it would be an issue to go the other way around.  I see prior AF guys spray painting their badges black so they can be warn on the ACUs

[billford1]

Not that long ago there was a Spaatz Award Ceremony where the Kansas Wing Commander wore his CIB on his Dress Uniform which to me looked appropriate. The cooler aspect of the ceremony was that the Cadet Spaatz recipient was also wearing a CIB on his dress uniform. People who have earned the awards should be allowed to wear them.

[COL Land]

I wear my Army bling (well, my aircrew wings) more because it shows a little "flying cred" in the face of the flying club-types.    Since I don't have any other Army badges (bullwinkle, parachute, etc), and just a GTL badge, it balances things a little.





Plus, you know, at least my uniform looks more correct now (for years I eshewed the subdued sew-on badge in favor of the old "white on OD" which at least looked "mostly correct."  I don't like to mix-n-match)

What?  No "Master Blaster" wings in ultra-marine? 

[mikeylikey]

Not that long ago there was a Spaatz Award Ceremony where the Kansas Wing Commander wore his CIB on his Dress Uniform which to me looked appropriate. The cooler aspect of the ceremony was that the Cadet Spaatz recipient was also wearing a CIB on his dress uniform. People who have earned the awards should be allowed to wear them.

AGREED!  CAP is CAP, CAP is not USAF.  Every military badge, ribbon and device should be allowed on CAP Uniforms.  PERIOD.  We already make concessions on the AF-style as to not be confused with the AF.  Why can't we let our members show their achievements, sacrifices and accomplishments??  Poor form not to allow every and anything on the uniforms. 

[DNall]

^ cause WE don't have any control over that uniform. WE are granted permission by the AF to wear their uniform in the way they direct, which is in conformity to THEIR rules. The AF defines what can or cannot be worn on that set of uniforms, and CAP has nothing to say about it at any level of the organization at any time for any reason, PERIOD.

Uniforms are like DnC. It's not really important to how you accomplish the mission. It's the discipline & conformity on those little things that form the foundation for those behaviors on the big things that do matter.

[mikeylikey]

^ But we are wearing things (badges) that are not allowed on the AF uniform now, already.  So why hasn't the AF told us to remove them?  Unless AF specifically says here is the list of badges you can wear, then lets not (NOT) remove what we already have in the current 39-1, just to fall in line with the AF.  It has been years since the AF removed certain badges from the Blues, wouldn't you think if it was such a big deal, we would have had an ICL telling us to remove the badges as well??

[winterg]

I didn't know that the EIB wasn't allowed by the AF.  I guess it's kinda like an occupational badge much like the AF has which aren't allowed by other services.

I went from USAF to Army and I wore my Crew Chief occupational badge and enlisted crew wings on my BDU's and dress uniform.  No probs.

[MIKE]

Mikey, if this annoys you... You'd better not join the gold side of the Coast Guard...  They are really anal about other services badges.

[JayT]

Not that long ago there was a Spaatz Award Ceremony where the Kansas Wing Commander wore his CIB on his Dress Uniform which to me looked appropriate. The cooler aspect of the ceremony was that the Cadet Spaatz recipient was also wearing a CIB on his dress uniform. People who have earned the awards should be allowed to wear them.

AGREED!  CAP is CAP, CAP is not USAF.  Every military badge, ribbon and device should be allowed on CAP Uniforms.  PERIOD.  We already make concessions on the AF-style as to not be confused with the AF.  Why can't we let our members show their achievements, sacrifices and accomplishments??  Poor form not to allow every and anything on the uniforms. 

So, you want it both ways then?

"We're the Air Force Auxiliary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

"Well, we don't want to follow Air Force rules, and lets let every body wear anything they've ever earned on their CAP uniform!!!!!!!!"

If the USAF doesn't let members show their "achievements, sacrifices and accomplishments" on their uniforms, why should we loss sleep over it on our own 'concession' ridden uniforms?

If you want to wear some bastardized version of the USAF uniform, you're welcome to it.

I can do my job just fine in the corporates.

[mikeylikey]

"We're the Air Force Auxiliary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

No we are not.  We are Civil Air Patrol.  We only happen to be the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force on Air Force Assigned Missions.   

Sorry to say we are already wearing "some bastardized version of the Air Force Uniform".

I think there are two groups here.  Those that have no other badges or bling to wear and those that do.  There is nothing wrong with wanting to wear a badge, ribbon or device given to you by your Country for sacrifices made. 

JTheman, if this troubles you that much, I think you would be best in a polo shirt.   

[DNall]

^ But we are wearing things (badges) that are not allowed on the AF uniform now, already.  So why hasn't the AF told us to remove them?  Unless AF specifically says here is the list of badges you can wear, then lets not (NOT) remove what we already have in the current 39-1, just to fall in line with the AF.  It has been years since the AF removed certain badges from the Blues, wouldn't you think if it was such a big deal, we would have had an ICL telling us to remove the badges as well??

The AFI was updated in I believe 2003. 39-1 hasn't been updated since well before that. It's an oversight by NHQ that our current rules on this issue have not been updated to conform with the newer AFI. NHQ staff is currently erring on the side of being more inclusive & not telling people to take stuff off. The issue has not been on the NB's radar, and AF has more important things to worry about than the few hundred people abusing this loophole. However, it is assumed that the updated version of 39-1 will be in compliance with the newer AFI, and AF will have to review the reg for compliance as I understand it. If it is not updated, then the AF will most likely force that action, which would be unfortunate if CAP really feels the need to make them do that.

I do sympathize. A CIB/CAB/CMB is in many cases hard earned, as is an EIB/EMB or any number of navy warfare badges. However, they are not authorized.

Navy warfare badges & AF specialty badges are not authorized on the Army uniform. Why is that fair? Should former airmen pin their stuff on ACUs cause they once earned it & the Army is just wrong to tell them they can't wear it? Who in the hell are they to dictate uniform policy to the Army?

The AF has authority over ALL CAP uniforms, including the corporates. That authority is absolute with the AF-style & codified in federal law. It has more of an advisory & veto authority over the corporate-style uniforms, and CAP is allowed to make changes there without getting permission in advance, but may have to make changes if it doesn't wash, and the authority is at CAP-USAF rather than AETC.

CAP does not have extensive rights in this matter. You certainly do not have the right to dictate uniform policy to the CSAF. You have the right to follow the orders of the officers appointed over you, regardless of your feelings.

As far as the auxiliary, the law says we are allowed to use the name AF Auxiliary, and it says we are the civilian auxiliary of the Air Force. It also says we are not an instrumentality of the US government unless on competent orders (AFAM). In other words, the government cannot be sued for what you do when not under their control (AFAM). In no way whatever does that effect the relationship between AF & CAP. In no way does that make us an independent corporation free to do our own thing as we please.

And Mikey... you're an ROTC instructor. You have cadets that say screw the team & do their own thing cause they feel like it? Do they get to question the competent legal orders of their superiors & decide which ones they'll follow & which ones they can ignore? Do they get to make up their own uniform regs cause it's ROTC & not the real Army so they don't have to comply with 670-1? I think not. Which brings me back to this is in part a discipline issue. If CAP can't do what they're told on a simple thing like uniforms then how can I trust them to protect really sensitive information or execute complex missions as ordered?

[mikeylikey]

^ I was only trying to get across that we are not the military.  We are a bunch of civilians, some of which have been awarded items which should be allowed to be worn on OUR uniforms.  I never said go around the regs, I never said to wear whatever you like, I did say that the chart in 39-1 lists items that the AF would not allow their members to wear, but until that chart is updated, continue to wear the stuff listed.  I also never said not to follow 39-1, nor to disregard it all together. 

I would like to see a members awards/ badges showcased on their uniform.  That is all. Nothing more, nothing less.   

If you go back to pages 1 and 2 of this thread you will see I wear an item specifically listed in 39-1, nothing more, although I have them. 

If we were at all serious about uniforms here, then 39-1 would have already been published, Region and Wing Commanders would not be allowed to add stupid uniform items (orange hats, ranger whistles) to the ever so large list and and it would follow the format of the AFI.

As far as ROTC goes, it is even more jacked up than CAP is regarding uniforms, plus Cadets are not subject to UCMJ.....(it was almost a whole semester trying to remove one cadet that took a swing at me at morning PT, cause I told him to complete the run over again because he cheated on the course.  We were finally able to disenroll him after 12 weeks.  I am happy to be getting away from Cadet Command and TRADOC).   

[DNall]

^ Okay, now that personal standard you're applying to yourself & others, assume the persona of the CAP organization/leadership and take that same stance in the relationship with the AF. The AFI is the AF rules which they have ordered CAP to comply with for the AF-style uniforms. CAP may be able to get away with doing their own thing to an extent before engendering a response from the otherwise preoccupied AF, but is that really necessary? What does it say to AF that CAP can't even follow simple orders or commander's intent when printed in black in white regs that require little to no interpretation. How far can they really trust us operationally when we can't do what we're told on the simple stuff? I know you talk to your soldiers when they fail a PT test and ask them how they're going to be able to perform in combat if they can't even do those simple events. It's the same thing.

I do really sympathize with letting people wear badges they've earned. I do think the AF should consider that, but currently that is not the policy & my job as an officer is to support the decisions of my higher regardless of how I feel about it. As such, 39-1 should be updated to the newer AFI, removing some badges that are currently authorized. That's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. If you want to talk about adding a CAP combat action medal & marksmanship ribbon to be awarded in place of sister service badges, I think that might be a reasonable compromise - unfortunate it comes to that, but reasonable.

[Hawk200]

It's an oversight by NHQ that our current rules on this issue have not been updated to conform with the newer AFI. NHQ staff is currently erring on the side of being more inclusive & not telling people to take stuff off. The issue has not been on the NB's radar, and AF has more important things to worry about than the few hundred people abusing this loophole. However, it is assumed that the updated version of 39-1 will be in compliance with the newer AFI, and AF will have to review the reg for compliance as I understand it. If it is not updated, then the AF will most likely force that action, which would be unfortunate if CAP really feels the need to make them do that.

How does anyone know if the Air Force has or would forbid those badges on the variants? Unless someone has actually spoken to someone in the Air Force with the authority to set the policy, or has documentation to indicate, how do we know? Food for thought.

For all we know, the Air Force may be permitting it through intentional inaction. It's not an issue to them so they don't address it. They may be making an allowance for those of us who also served, or in many cases, used to. They let us still wear the stuff that we earned.

As far as a 39-1 update goes, I find it hard to believe that they reviewed the latest one. It's full of contradictions, mis-spellings, and generally poor format. If the Air Force did review it, I'm betting that it would be a little more put together than it is now.

[hatentx]

I dont believe anyone is argueing that we not follow the regulations.  I dont think anyone has said that anywhere in this post.  I think the point being made is that we should allow other service badges on the CAP uniform.  In the RM these sorta of things would be brought up and when they update regs the things are takin into consideration, no matter what the regulation is. 

[brasda91]

I do sympathize. A CIB/CAB/CMB is in many cases hard earned, as is an EIB/EMB or any number of navy warfare badges. However, they are not authorized.

Are you saying the CIB is not authorized on the woodland BDU's?

[billford1]

I've had USAF Officers tell me that they are looking at an expanded role for CAP in the area of aerial recon. I have also heard USAF Officers express concern at the decline in the number of CAP membership. If some are really so concerned about whether Military Combat or other Service badges should be allowed on the uniform they should consider  the morale of those ex Military folks who might be told to remove those badges if such a move were considered. It is my position that if the USAF didn't want to allow them to be worn that this would have been dealt with long ago. I really hope that this whole thing just gets left alone. We have lot's of hard working under appreciated members who get little recognition for what they do. If  I had a CIB or other type of Military badge that had been authorized for wear on my uniform and was told that what I had risked my life for had to be removed the outcome would be unsatisfactory. This isn't just about those in Emergency Services or aviation roles it's also about Cadet Programs. Our Cadets have experienced the help of real Military Vets and even Active Duty Military who put on the CAP uniform to mentor the Cadets. They show some of the best leadership I've ever seen. If you upset these folks they will go away and our Cadets will be negatively affected. The contribution made for and by Cadets is probably the biggest contribution made by the CAP. This should not be messed with.

[mikeylikey]

The AFI is the AF rules which they have ordered CAP to comply with for the AF-style uniforms.

Where in a CAP reg does it say to comply with the AFI regarding AF-Style Uniforms?  Honestly, it needs to, and I wouldn't mind being the last chapter in that AFI.  However, AF has control over AF-style, and can approve or disapprove items worn on them.  They have approved the badges and bling listed in 39-1.  Why would we go to them and ask "is this still OK"?  If it were not, CAP-USAF would have sent a memo directing CAP members remove forboten items.  Just because the AF uniform changes every year, does not mean CAP is mandated to follow suite.  If it were, the AF would be running the CAP, like they used to. 

I will be the first person to say "let the AF write 39-1", and lets follow their AFI in regard to uniforms, but UNTIL that happens, we follow the guidance in the current 39-1.  AGAIN, WE FOLLOW THE GUIDANCE IN THE CURRENT 39-1.  We have no obligation to disregard current 39-1 for the AFI.  UNLESS somewhere it says "Follow the Air Force Uniform Instruction", we don't have to.

DNALL.......you are forgetting we are supposed to be following CAP regs, not AF regs, UNLESS the CAP reg says "FOLLOW this AFI, or this DoD Directive (like the nondiscrimination policy does).  We Follow CAP regs first....because.........we ARE CAP! 

[DNall]

How does anyone know if the Air Force has or would forbid those badges on the variants?

The rule is CAP will wear the AF-style uniform IAW the AFI, and 39-1 will define the org specific variations (as well as the corp-style uniforms). It's not a matter of asking or not asking.

This really has a whole lot more to do with other services not permitting wear of AF specialty badges on their uniforms (and vice versa) than it does anything to do with CAP.

As far as a 39-1 update goes, I find it hard to believe that they reviewed the latest one....

They review it for compliance with the law/policy, and advise only on that, not being a good publication. CAP-USAF reviews all CAP pubs before publication.

I dont believe anyone is argueing that we not follow the regulations.  I dont think anyone has said that anywhere in this post.  I think the point being made is that we should allow other service badges on the CAP uniform.  In the RM these sorta of things would be brought up and when they update regs the things are takin into consideration, no matter what the regulation is. 

The regs are the standard you are held to as an individual. Obviously everyone wants to follow that.

Likewise, the AF holds CAP as an organization to a standard set in the AF regs & they are ordered to comply with that. Right now, the CAP reg is way out of date, which allows people to wear badges that were once but are no longer permitted on the AF uniform. That's something that has to get fixed at some point.

Do they deserve the badges? Of course by all means, and they should take pride in them. But, that doesn't mean the AF wants to allow it on their uniform, and there really is nothing we can do about that either way. As I said, this is more of an issue between the AF & other services than CAP. It's an imperfect world & we're doing the best we can with what we have to work with.

Are you saying the CIB is not authorized on the woodland BDU's?

The reg says those badges auth for wear on the AF uniform (which CIB is not), then refers to a quick ref chart for a list of those that are auth by the AF. CIB is on that chart because at the time it was made it was auth on the AF uniform. It is not auth under the most recent AFI.

So, I'm saying it is specifically authorized in the outdated version of 39-1, but very clearly should not be upon revision. If I personally think that's the right or wrong call is completely a different matter.

I've had USAF Officers tell me that they are looking at an expanded role for CAP in the area of aerial recon. I have also heard USAF Officers express concern at the decline in the number of CAP membership. If some are really so concerned about whether Military Combat or other Service badges should be allowed on the uniform they should consider  the morale of those ex Military folks who might be told to remove those badges if such a move were considered. It is my position that if the USAF didn't want to allow them to be worn that this would have been dealt with long ago. I really hope that this whole thing just gets left alone. We have lot's of hard working under appreciated members who get little recognition for what they do. If  I had a CIB or other type of Military badge that had been authorized for wear on my uniform and was told that what I had risked my life for had to be removed the outcome would be unsatisfactory. This isn't just about those in Emergency Services or aviation roles it's also about Cadet Programs. Our Cadets have experienced the help of real Military Vets and even Active Duty Military who put on the CAP uniform to mentor the Cadets. They show some of the best leadership I've ever seen. If you upset these folks they will go away and our Cadets will be negatively affected. The contribution made for and by Cadets is probably the biggest contribution made by the CAP. This should not be messed with.

Navy badges weren't authorized under the old reg, and hence the current version of 39-1. Why is that fair? Ranger/SF/Sapper Tabs & combat patches have never been authorized. People come in & put on freakin glow in the dark blue tapes versus the subdued they've worn their whole career - now it's going to be a completely different uniform then they've ever worn before. They get squared up that we're not going to be doing combat training and pulled down into the CAP lane. That's who we are & they have to deal with that if they want to contribute.

I understand change can ruffle some feathers. That's part of it. You would hope that change is for the better, or at least well justified. If someone is going to quit mentoring cadets into successful adults because the AF says they can't wear their CIB while doing it, then they really got some other issues to deal with. I am sorry and even a little embarrassed to tell them they'd have to take it off, but is that really what defines them as a CAP member? I don't wear a whole lot of crap I'm authorized. It really doesn't seem to effect my performance as an officer one way or another. 

[MIKE]

I can see that this is just gonna go round and round until another ICL comes out... with the I can wears mah badge crowd pointing at CAPM 39-1 Table 6-5. ... and the take it off crowd pointing at CAPM 39-1 Table 6-4. and AFI36-2903 Table 5-2. Rules 5 through 7.