Over 18 Cadets

[CASH172]

CAP members in general don't have to do any ES at all, so I don't see a problem there.  Also, ES isn't restricted to senior membership in any real category, so any cadet can start working toward higher quals.  They just wouldn't fully earn a lot of the higher quals such as IC as a cadet. 

In terms of the FO and rest of the senior world relationship, it's a whole other issue that doesn't need to involve transfering cadet membership at 18. 

[arajca]

Cadets do NOT earn a CP rating as a cadet. They earn it when they transition to seniordom, if their commander approves.

Cadets do not earn PR ratings period. They may earn some speciality track badges (ES basic, ITO basic, and Comm - all three), but they do not earn the ratings. Once they transition and backfill the senior requirements, they earn the rating.

[Always Ready]

I figured I'd put my two cents in...I'm a former Mitchell cadet, 5 Year Type 7 AFROTC scholarship recipient (it would be 4 year, but I had a Secretary of the AF approved engineering major), former AFROTC cadet , and I am a FO. I made the transition to SM soon after my 18th b-day. I was a cadet commander and I spent most of the two years I was a cadet doing ES stuff. I hated cadet programs (too focused on CP, not enough on ES ), but I did it because I had to in order to participate in ES and because in real life you still have to do things you don't want to do.

There are two main reasons to keep the FO grades. One, legal issues. For example, in some states, the age that you are considered an adult can be anywhere from 18-21. As far as the military argument is concerned, the AF will let you join AFROTC (including scholarships) as early as 16...possibly earlier I'll have to pull up the reg. The rule is you can't get your commission until you are 18 and if I remember right there is a 17 with parental consent loophole with that too. That doesn't count in this situation. The second reason is that it give former cadets a time to transition between cadet life and SM life. You have to cut a lot of your ties with your cadets and build them with the SMs. Not only are you leaving the familiarity of cadet programs, but you are going into uncharted territory. Cadet programs is fairly organized. SM "programs" is "fairly" organized. But the FO ranks are completely confusing especially if you are a former cadet. Most squadrons don't know how and when to promote you.

I believe that cadets should be able to remain cadets until they are 21. This gives them time to finish any goals they had not completed and to think about if they want to continue to in CAP. Most cadets quit during this time because they don't see any reason to continue. They hear about how difficult it can be to transfer to SM if they are younger than 21 and some don't see a point. Some of my friends have said they quit because they could no longer be a cadet. These individuals were generally only involved in CP and not in AE, ES, etc. They saw no point in continuing especially if they were going to join the military. The ones I know that went on to be a SM are the ones who were involved in something outside of CP and the ones that developed close ties to SMs during the 18-21 age range.

I enjoy being a FO. Cadets still see me as someone that they can talk to and depend on (lets face it...as a cadet most SM just cause roadblocks and drama) and SM don' t see me as that cadet who went to all of the ES stuff but couldn't do anything during the meetings for them. But, if I had the choice again to stay a cadet or go SM...I'd still go SM...less drama

[SJFedor]

Most squadrons don't know how and when to promote you.

I echo that sentiment. When I went through all the FO grades, I kept track of my own PD, and when it was time I came to my CC with the form and the regulation and said "sir/ma'am, it's that time again"

[BillB]

The average SM looks at the FO grade insignia as being an "Advanced Cadet grade".  By that I mean, it doesn't look like a SM grade insignia. If it doesn't look like 2LT gade and above it must be a cadet grade insignia. So in many cases SM treat the FO grades as cadets and don't think about promotions or PD of FO's.
This could be resolved by going back to the original USAF FO grade insignia which looked like a 1LT bar with a blue stripe (or stripes) across the bar. To many a FO isn't a cadet and also isn't a SM becuase of grade insignia since it isn't included in the slide shows for level 1. Commanders often leave the FO members under the DCP for lack of understanding the role of the FO.

[Grumpy]

Having been in CAP when we had Warrant Officers, I kind of look at FOs in that light.

[lordmonar]

Bottom line is that we say in our regs that an SFO is equal to a Capt once he/she turns 21 but we don't treat them that way.

A major part of this is that they are so young....I am 42 and I am treated as the "young guy" by most of old hands in CAP.

But that goes back to my orginanal point....we already have a major age discrimination problem in CAP....the vast 18-21 gray area and the FO ranks only make it worse.

[davidsinn]

Bottom line is that we say in our regs that an SFO is equal to a Capt once he/she turns 21 but we don't treat them that way.

A major part of this is that they are so young....I am 42 and I am treated as the "young guy" by most of old hands in CAP.

But that goes back to my orginanal point....we already have a major age discrimination problem in CAP....the vast 18-21 gray area and the FO ranks only make it worse.

Try being a 23 year old 2d Lt in command of the flightline with "seasoned" light colonels flying from your line that act like it's a normal FBO line. Nearly had a cadet wing walker taken out by the stabilizer once when the pilot disobeyed my direction and turned hard in the opposite direction because he thought he knew my job better than I did.

[lordmonar]

Well you know the best way to get a pilot to ignore you?     Start marshalling him! 

[SarDragon]

Sadly, I'm inclined to agree when it comes to CAP FlOps.

[davidsinn]

Well you know the best way to get a pilot to ignore you?     Start marshalling him! 

Funny thing was we had been running a line with 7 aircraft for 6 hours at that point. The pilot in question did not like to make all the extra turns to comply with our one way traffic pattern and basically exited the in door.

[arajca]

Try being a 23 year old 2d Lt in command of the flightline with "seasoned" light colonels flying from your line that act like it's a normal FBO line. Nearly had a cadet wing walker taken out by the stabilizer once when the pilot disobeyed my direction and turned hard in the opposite direction because he thought he knew my job better than I did.

BTDT. Grounded the wing/cc at a SAREX because he almost ran over a cadet on the flight line. Safety backed me up.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Try being a 23 year old 2d Lt in command of the flightline with "seasoned" light colonels flying from your line that act like it's a normal FBO line. Nearly had a cadet wing walker taken out by the stabilizer once when the pilot disobeyed my direction and turned hard in the opposite direction because he thought he knew my job better than I did.

BTDT. Grounded the wing/cc at a SAREX because he almost ran over a cadet on the flight line. Safety backed me up.

Safety Trumps the shoulder chickens....

[ol'fido]

The program we have is adequate. We just need to tweek it a bit. It is hard to write regs that will cover every situation. If you write them too large, they will not do anything.

If you join before your 18, you can stay a cadet till you are 21. Join after your 18th and you are a senior. The problem as I see it lies with training.

First, we need to have a specific Flight Officer training curriculum that would combine elements of the cadet program knowledge with more advanced training. These are actually senior-members-in-training. We treat them like seniors when it is convenient, "Hey, we need a TAC to go with the cadets to get haircuts." but we treat them like cadets when they screw up because they don't have the training that a Mitchell or higher cadet might have. I have been guilty of this myself so I'm trying to be part of the solution.  Let's set up  an FO training prgram that is distinctive from the CP or senior training programs.

I also think we need to follow the AFs lead and start a Senior Officer Basic Course that is more hands on and in-depth than a Level 1 or the ECI 13 or whatever it is designated now.

[BillB]

olefido
A trainbing program for 18-21 year old seniors has already been discussed. it's basically the old Officer training Corp program that CAP used in the 1960's. The OTC program was voluntary in that a cadet could stay a cadet or join OTC and be eligible for FO grades. Ideally it would come back as a manditory program for 18 to 21 year olds. However it would allow an OTC member to continue to progress through the cadet levels, while at the same time allow senior member professional development.

[lordmonar]

The program we have is adequate. We just need to tweek it a bit. It is hard to write regs that will cover every situation. If you write them too large, they will not do anything.

If you join before your 18, you can stay a cadet till you are 21. Join after your 18th and you are a senior. The problem as I see it lies with training.

First, we need to have a specific Flight Officer training curriculum that would combine elements of the cadet program knowledge with more advanced training. These are actually senior-members-in-training. We treat them like seniors when it is convenient, "Hey, we need a TAC to go with the cadets to get haircuts." but we treat them like cadets when they screw up because they don't have the training that a Mitchell or higher cadet might have. I have been guilty of this myself so I'm trying to be part of the solution.  Let's set up  an FO training prgram that is distinctive from the CP or senior training programs.

I also think we need to follow the AFs lead and start a Senior Officer Basic Course that is more hands on and in-depth than a Level 1 or the ECI 13 or whatever it is designated now.

This is even worse.....by this definition FO's ARE NOT the same as regular officers.....but current philosophy is that they are the same....they are just not 21......hence the jump from SFO to Capt.

By creating a new program for the FO's that uses cadet curriculm...you are saying to the world that these SMs are just big cadets.

[ßτε]

There is no jump from SFO to Capt at age 21 except for those who have earned the Spaatz award or who have 18 months TIG as SFO. If a SFO who has not earned the Spaatz award has less than 18 months TIG as SFO, the promotion should be to 1st Lt until a total of 18 months as SFO and 1st Lt combined is achieved. Then the 1st Lt would be eligible for promotion to Capt.

[Grumpy]

Oh how I wish the old days when we had warrant officers.  There was something about that little blue and silver bar. (If you get my drift)

[Capt Rivera]

lets not forget someone who joins CAP at 18, 19 or 20 as apposed to someone who joined at 21. There is no difference in lack of knowledge and some might ague the same maturity as some people loose a few years of it as soon as they turn 21....

Any training to bring that new 18-20 yr old up to speed is the same thing needed for any new member of any age. [not every old person is actually mature or has military experience]

If you join before your 18, you can stay a cadet till you are 21. Join after your 18th and you are a senior. The problem as I see it lies with training.

Did something change? I thought you had a choice until your 19th Bday... as in if you are 18 and join you CAN be a cadet if you WANT to be. If you are 19 you MUST be a senior member.


I know experiences differ everywhere... I still think it is a very bad idea to do this whole C/COL = Capt at 21.... This is used to keep cadets in? Seriously, what is the quality of the person if this is whats needed.... Yes I know bling chasers ultimately do a lot, but they also chase away many other members....

What happens when that C/COL who is basically demanding promotion to Capt gets told by the CC, "No"? Will they leave? Did we accomplish anything besides creating a issue where some commanders might feel they have to promote or are expected to make those promotions? Promotions that are made: Do they give some cadet who does not know how the Officer side of the program works, who still feels they are the commander [used to be cadet commander] something to power trip on?

I would really like to know how current cadets who made the transitions are handling it... in fact I think it should have been a requirement to test the new "option". That requirement being that the cadet who wants it and the commander who authorizes it, needs to report to NHQ on the results of it. [Set interval for at least 1 year] I'm sure there would be good and bad reports....

[arajca]

Something I have seen regarding C/Col -> Capt transition:
At a previous unit, many moons ago, we had two C/Col's transition. Each got 1st Lt and were told to demonstrate they deserve Capt. The first basically told the commander where to put it and quit. The other planned two activities in six months that were very successful. At the end of the second activity, he got his Capt's bars. When I left, he was still an active and productive member.

This approach makes sense to me.