Shoulder Cords

[Duke Dillio]

WIWAC in Army ROTC, I showed up to a CAP meeting right after coming back from a Ranger Challenge function.  I was wearing my ROTC BDU's and was planning on changing into my CAP BDU's which were in my office.  I was of course wearing all subdued insignia with the black beret and flash.  As I got near the door, the squadron commander began chastising me for wearing the black beret with subdued insignia, until he read the tag on the side that said "US Army."  I had not told him that I was in ROTC before.  He thought this was some bad version of a CAP uniform and so he kindof backed down a bit when I explained that I was going to change my attire in the restroom.  I never wore any ROTC uniform to CAP again.

There is a place for military uniforms.  As a general rule, I have found that CAP isn't usually one of them.  I have come across several older CAP officers who wear things like the French Forragere or some other odd medal on their CAP uniform.  To be honest, someone who was permanently awarded something like that should be lauded for their service, not chastised.  I have seen some of these posts where people are jumping on those wearing stuff that "the Air Force doesn't wear."  I've seen Air Force personnel with long tabs, Ranger tabs, and a whole host of devices that aren't even listed in CAPM 39-1.  Here's another example: the Parachutist Badge is not specifically listed in CAPM 39-1 but the Air Assault Badge, Pathfinder Badge, Scuba Badge, and Combat Infantryman's Badge are.  You have to go in and research the AF regs to find that the Parachutist Badge is considered an Aeronautical Badge which is listed in CAPM 39-1.

I would like to hear which of you would walk up to a CAP officer who is also a WWII vet wearing a French Forragere and tell him to take it off.  Come tell us what that officer's response was.  That would be fairly entertaining to me.

The topic was what wings award shoulder cords and for what.  Now, people are jumping on each other and saying "you can't wear that" and "you aren't following the regs."  How do you know?  Have each of you reviewed every wing supplement?  Do you know for a fact that the wing commander for that wing hasn't prescribed the wear of a specific shoulder cord for something?  When are we gonna pull together and show that we are ONE CAP?  HWSRN had a pretty good concept when they decided to make the Wing patches optional.  I personally would have moved them to the pocket just below the nametag on the BDU's like the USAF does.  It's like a one AF concept.  Anyway, I think we need to start thinking as a team instead of just bashing everyone with specifically biased opinions.

[mikeylikey]

WIWAC in Army ROTC, I showed up to a CAP meeting right after coming back from a Ranger Challenge function.  I was wearing my ROTC BDU's and was planning on changing into my CAP BDU's which were in my office.  I was of course wearing all subdued insignia with the black beret and flash. 

ummm....never heard of ROTC Cadets wearing the black beret before Commissioning.

I was an ROTC Cadet.  I am CADRE at a University and am on my way to a third year of babysitting Cadets at Fort Knox.  Never ever before or after has a beret been authorized by Cadet Command, nor Accessions Command. 

Continue on about shoulder cords............       

[mikeylikey]

I've seen Air Force personnel with long tabs, Ranger tabs, and a whole host of devices that aren't even listed in CAPM 39-1. 

Really?  I never have.  I have seen AF peeps who have been to Ranger School wear it under their cover, but never on a uniform. 

39-1 is not all inclusive.  Somewhere inside it states you can call NHQ and request guidance on specific badges, tabs, ribbons etc not listed in 39-1.  I called about the Ranger tab.....and that was a big No response. 

[Duke Dillio]

Sorry to break topic for a moment.  This occured in 1996.  The black beret was authorized for members of the Ranger Challenge team.  A flash was worn which was shield shaped with four boxes, black and gold, crosswise.  We wore our school insignia in the center of the flash.

Go find a copy of AR670-1 dated 1 Sept 1992 and read it.  It's there.  

Just because you haven't seen a million dollars doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Duke Dillio]

I've seen Air Force personnel with long tabs, Ranger tabs, and a whole host of devices that aren't even listed in CAPM 39-1. 

Really?  I never have.  I have seen AF peeps who have been to Ranger School wear it under their cover, but never on a uniform. 

39-1 is not all inclusive.  Somewhere inside it states you can call NHQ and request guidance on specific badges, tabs, ribbons etc not listed in 39-1.  I called about the Ranger tab.....and that was a big No response. 

Go find some ETAC's there Mikey.  I'm not attacking you in any way but it seems as though you are attacking me.  Combat Air Controllers wear that stuff too if they have completed the training.  All of the ETAC's I have ever worked with wore at a minimum the parachutist badge.  Granted, it's been about 7 years since I was in and I know a LOT of things have changed.  You could have PM'd me with this instead of trying to call me out.  Just seems rather disrespectful if you ask me...

[lordmonar]

WIWAC in Army ROTC, I showed up to a CAP meeting right after coming back from a Ranger Challenge function.  I was wearing my ROTC BDU's and was planning on changing into my CAP BDU's which were in my office.  I was of course wearing all subdued insignia with the black beret and flash. 

ummm....never heard of ROTC Cadets wearing the black beret before Commissioning.

I was an ROTC Cadet.  I am CADRE at a University and am on my way to a third year of babysitting Cadets at Fort Knox.  Never ever before or after has a beret been authorized by Cadet Command, nor Accessions Command. 

Continue on about shoulder cords............       

Back in 84-85 When I was a in college...the Pershing Rifles wore Army Uniforms and Black Berets....even those who were not ROTC cadets (I was an AFROTC cadet AND a member of the Pershing Rifles).

Of course that was 20+ years ago.

[mikeylikey]

I've seen Air Force personnel with long tabs, Ranger tabs, and a whole host of devices that aren't even listed in CAPM 39-1. 

Really?  I never have.  I have seen AF peeps who have been to Ranger School wear it under their cover, but never on a uniform. 

39-1 is not all inclusive.  Somewhere inside it states you can call NHQ and request guidance on specific badges, tabs, ribbons etc not listed in 39-1.  I called about the Ranger tab.....and that was a big No response. 

Go find some ETAC's there Mikey.  I'm not attacking you in any way but it seems as though you are attacking me.  Combat Air Controllers wear that stuff too if they have completed the training.  All of the ETAC's I have ever worked with wore at a minimum the parachutist badge.  Granted, it's been about 7 years since I was in and I know a LOT of things have changed.  You could have PM'd me with this instead of trying to call me out.  Just seems rather disrespectful if you ask me...

I was specifically making reference to the Ranger Tab. 

Sorry if you thought I was being "disrespectful" to you, I was writing about what the standard in ROTC has been for the last 10 to 12 years. 

[mikeylikey]

Go find a copy of AR670-1 dated 1 Sept 1992 and read it.  It's there.  

Mine don't go that far back.  If you have a copy.....or know where I can get one, I would be grateful.  I have never seen ROTC uniform guidance in 670-1.  Cadet Command has always published their own regs on uniforms.  I have one such item dated 1990 in the office, and there is nothing about black berets. 

[Duke Dillio]

It's all good mikey.  I'll see if I can't dig one up.  It is from quite a while ago.  They still sell the flash that was worn on paradestore.com.  I did have a question for you but I will PM that one.

Back to shoulder cords:

I'm not really against cadets wearing the shoulder cords as long as they aren't something that the RealMilitary (with the R thing) uses.  For example, cadets wearing infantry cords or any of the forrageres listed previously.  It only takes a little research to ensure that we aren't trying to fake something.  Oh, and also as long as they aren't some flagrant color.  I really don't want to see a cadet with a bright pink, orange, or bright purple shoulder cord.....

[JayT]

The topic was what wings award shoulder cords and for what.  Now, people are jumping on each other and saying "you can't wear that" and "you aren't following the regs."  How do you know?  Have each of you reviewed every wing supplement?  Do you know for a fact that the wing commander for that wing hasn't prescribed the wear of a specific shoulder cord for something? 

Well, it's pretty clear actually. SM's can't wear cords. That's not something a Wing Supplment can change.

[JC004]

Well, it's pretty clear actually. SM's can't wear cords. That's not something a Wing Supplment can change.

But a lot of wing commanders think they're awesome and can change whatever they want. 

My former group cc once told me that the "wing commander can interpret the regulations however he wants." 

Awesome, huh?

[PHall]

But a lot of wing commanders think they're awesome and can change whatever they want. 

My former group cc once told me that the "wing commander can interpret the regulations however he wants." 

Awesome, huh?

Unfortunately, that seems to be a very widely held opinion.

[JC004]

But a lot of wing commanders think they're awesome and can change whatever they want. 

My former group cc once told me that the "wing commander can interpret the regulations however he wants." 

Awesome, huh?

Unfortunately, that seems to be a very widely held opinion.

I loose basically all respect for those with that attitude.  Making a command call in the name of safety or whatever is one thing in a bind.  A culture of "do as I say - not as I do" is not OK. 

Then they come screaming "retention! recruiting!" 

They ask "why don't you come to/trust group/wing?"

They are shocked when people ignore them, quit, stop caring, transfer, or fail to recruit new people.  Come on folks...if you wing king-types and the like are so oblivious to the impact of your attitudes and orders, you need a different "career."  When you do something like authorize shoulder cords in contradiction of national policy, and the members know it, you are compromising your authority, among other things.  Duh.

[mikeylikey]

^ well said general

[jimmydeanno]

Oh, and also as long as they aren't some flagrant color...  orange...

Speaking of orange shoulder cords...

Apparantly my wing has a group of "Special Operations Ground Team Members" who wear blaze orange shoulder cords.  What they do, nobody knows.  What this team is...I don't think the Wing CC even knows, but he doesn't seem to object to them wearing them.

Nothing in writing, looks dumb, doesn't even serve a purpose.

[Hawk200]

Oh, and also as long as they aren't some flagrant color...  orange...

Speaking of orange shoulder cords...

Apparantly my wing has a group of "Special Operations Ground Team Members" who wear blaze orange shoulder cords.  What they do, nobody knows.  What this team is...I don't think the Wing CC even knows, but he doesn't seem to object to them wearing them.

Nothing in writing, looks dumb, doesn't even serve a purpose.

"Special Operations" ground team members? Sounds like someone is building themselves up a little too much. Gotta wondering what they're overcompensating for.

That's the kind of garbage that causes most of the problems. Willful violation is worse than ignorance. I'd rather hear "I didn't know." than "I know what it says, and I don't care!".

[SAR-EMT1]

< shrugs > Show me the reg.

5-5. Shoulder Cords. Shoulder cords may be worn by cadets only to denote special honor positions or may be authorized by the wing commander for special purpose activities (see Table 1-4).

(a) Shoulder cords. Not more than one shoulder cord will be worn at one time, and it will be worn on the left shoulder (see Figure 5-2). Color to be determined by the wing commander, EXCEPT all primary members of Cadet Advisory Councils will wear gold at the National level, blue at region level, and red at wing level. (See CAPR 52-16, CAP
Cadet Program Management.) National Cadet Competition teams will wear
white shoulder cords. Honor Guardsmen will wear silver shoulder cords

1-1. Policy. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP distinctive uniforms as well as uniforms similar to the U.S. Air Force.

5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence. See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.

I don't see anything there authorizing CAP Senior Members to wear Air Force ROTC cords in CAP uniform, or ROTC uniforms to CAP activities.

Your turn. Prove me wrong.

Sure...

I was a CAP Cadet at the time, not a Senior member.
As for authorization, insomuch as 5-4 above applies,
the cord was authorized by the cadre after I earned it, so by extension it may have qualified as an award.

Now that I am a SM I no longer wear it, just as I no longer wear my cadet saladbar

As for wearing the ROTC uniform to meetings, AFROTC leadlab was held immediately prior to the CAP meetings and, lets face it, we were going to a meeting of the USAF Auxiliary in USAF uniform. > Shrug <

[JayT]

Okay, so find me proof that CAP cadets are allowed to wear AFROTC lanyards.

Doesn't matter. You're going to a Civil Air Patrol meeting, not a USAFAux meeting. I don't see what AFROTC has to do with CAP, really.

[mikeylikey]

^ I think he was saying he didn't change out of his AFROTC uniform, just came to the CAP meeting in his AF uniform. 

We ALL have done similar, you know, running late at work, can't change, but must get to the meeting. 

Heck I don't like to, but on a few instances, I showed up in my ACU's.....not because I wanted people to see me in them, but because I was really late, or was only staying a few minutes before heading back to work. 

Personally I don't like members wearing their military uniforms to a CAP meeting, but if it can't be helped, I would rather have them there, then not at all!!

[JayT]

^ I think he was saying he didn't change out of his AFROTC uniform, just came to the CAP meeting in his AF uniform. 

We ALL have done similar, you know, running late at work, can't change, but must get to the meeting. 

Heck I don't like to, but on a few instances, I showed up in my ACU's.....not because I wanted people to see me in them, but because I was really late, or was only staying a few minutes before heading back to work. 

Personally I don't like members wearing their military uniforms to a CAP meeting, but if it can't be helped, I would rather have them there, then not at all!!

I understood what he was saying.

But if he was coming from Lab in BDUs, all he had to do was change his BDU shirt. Its not like ACUs where its a completely different uniform.