Qualification Badges for other ES specialties

Started by thefischNX01, December 01, 2005, 04:25:38 PM

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thefischNX01

OK, so we have our basic 3 ES qualification badges:
Ground Team
Observer
Pilot

What about badges for qualifications like Incident Commander?  And while we're at it, why not have wings for Mission Scanner?  Flight Line Marshaller? Ground Branch Director and Air Operations Branch Director?
Capt. Colin Fischer, CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Easton Composite Sqdn
Maryland Wing
http://whats-a-flight-officer.blogspot.com/

MIKE

#1
Quote from: thefischNX01 on December 01, 2005, 04:25:38 PM
What about badges for qualifications like Incident Commander?  And while we're at it, why not have wings for Mission Scanner?  Flight Line Marshaller? Ground Branch Director and Air Operations Branch Director?

Agree that there should be wings for Scanners... I'd actually like to see us get away from having wings for specific crew positions other than pilots and go more toward wings for rated aircrew... Unless you want to consider an observer as more like a navigator which the USAF has distinctive wings for IIRC.  This way you have a set of wings because you regularly fly in the aircraft as one of the crew positions, be that the observer, scanner or perhaps a "sensor operator".

I also think that the Ground Team badge idea could be changed somewhat to also include UDF types etc... Something for the Mission Base Staff types too.

I thought the Ground Branch Director typically rates a Master Ground Team badge in the same way that a GTL usually has a Senior Ground Team badge. Do you have to be aircrew rated to be an AOBD?

Mike Johnston

thefischNX01

If I understand it correctly, yes, you have to be either a mission pilot or Mission Observer, or maybe both. 
Capt. Colin Fischer, CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Easton Composite Sqdn
Maryland Wing
http://whats-a-flight-officer.blogspot.com/

Matt

<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

arajca

A proposal was submitted about this very issue I proposed the following (actually three proposals)
1. A scanner wing based on the solo wing with the Observer center.
2.  UDF badge - similar to GT badge, but with "UDF" in the center.
3. An Emergency Services Quaification badge - four levels [Basic, Leader(star),Chief(wreathed star),IC(star&scroll)]. Smiliar in design to the GT badge, but with an enamel center of the CAP logo (triangle & prop)

Pace

Quote from: thefischNX01 on December 01, 2005, 04:25:38 PM
OK, so we have our basic 3 ES qualification badges:
Ground Team
Observer
Pilot

What about badges for qualifications like Incident Commander?  And while we're at it, why not have wings for Mission Scanner?  Flight Line Marshaller? Ground Branch Director and Air Operations Branch Director?

I disagree that we need more badges.  Wings for MOs are incentive to get both your MS and MO ratings instead of just stopping at MS.

FLM?  Are you kidding?  Anyone with enough sense to dress themselves can walk out to the ramp and learn to taxi aircraft in almost no time.  With the specialties that currently rate badges/wings, countless hours of training, evaluation, and proficiency are expended.  I'm not trying to devalue the rating, just to point out the differences in difficulty levels/resources (money, time, etc.).

GBD already rates the Master GT badge.  AOBD will already have at least one set of wings, if not two.  IC will already have either a Master GT badge or wings.  Plus, by the time they've earned an IC rating, they've probably also earned a few specialty ratings in the SM PD program.  My point is that they have enough badges to flash.  No need for more.

Now I might see the merit in an all-encompassing badge for those specialties that don't currently have any shiny metal associated with them.  Lt Rajca's idea for a four-level badge would be great I think.  Add AL with IC and it seems like a fair compromise.  For example (remember, no need to earn this badge for a rating that currently has a badge/wing):
Basic:
FLM, IO, LO, MC, MP, MRO, MS, MSA, MSO, RM, TMP, and UDF

Leader:
AOBD, CUL, and FLS

Chief:
FASC, LSC, OSC, and PSC

Command:
IC (3, 2, and 1) and AL (3, 2, and 1)

Hell, while we're at it.  If you're a stills evaluator, you get a different colored badge or instead of the CAP seal in the middle of the badge, you have an "SE" seal.

Again though, I still think we have enough badges now.  YMMV.
Lt Col, CAP

capchiro

I think I saw a presolo set of wings (wing?) on a cadet the other day.  Looked like the solo set but was different in some way.  Am I dreaming?  What are the requirements for presolo?  It seems to be a buzz word at the summer flight encampments. 
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Pace

Presolo (without prop in center):

Solo (with prop in center):


Quote from: CAPR 60-1
1-6. Explanation of Terms.
[...]
n. Pre-Solo Qualification Flight. A flight, performed at a CAP wing level or higher flight encampment/academy, during
which the CAP student pilot demonstrates, to an onboard CAP certificated flight instructor (CFI), that he/she has the ability to fly
the aircraft without assistance from the onboard CAP CFI. This flight does not require an FAA endorsement and does not fulfill
FAA requirements for solo flight, however the prerequisite for a pre-solo qualification is completion of all requirements in the
appropriate portion of FAR 61.87.

Sounds to me like the presolo flight is the one just prior to a solo flight, but the cadet runs out of time/money and does not get to solo (but has proven to the CFI the ability to potentially do it).
Lt Col, CAP

John Bryan

The orginal post asked "OK, so we have our basic 3 ES qualification badges:
Ground Team Observer Pilot"......Just FYI Pilot wings are not really an ES badge. I believe a member can wear them once he or she passes their CAPF 5. Thus they are CAP pilots, but not mission pilots. A member can be a pilot, wear the wings and never take GENES or do anything related to ES.

Observers and GTM wings/badge are based on the ES skill.

John Bryan

The key to the reg on Pre-Solo wings is they are only awarded at National, Region , or Wing Flight Academies or Encampments.....not at the local level.

Solo wings can be awarded at the local level, even if the member did not solo with CAP.

MIKE

Quote from: John Bryan on December 01, 2005, 08:18:51 PM
Solo wings can be awarded at the local level, even if the member did not solo with CAP.

Requires a current solo endorsement from a CAP IP though, ref: CAPR 60-1 3-2. b. 4).
Mike Johnston

Pace

Quote from: John Bryan on December 01, 2005, 08:17:11 PM
The orginal post asked "OK, so we have our basic 3 ES qualification badges:
Ground Team Observer Pilot"......Just FYI Pilot wings are not really an ES badge. I believe a member can wear them once he or she passes their CAPF 5. Thus they are CAP pilots, but not mission pilots. A member can be a pilot, wear the wings and never take GENES or do anything related to ES.

Observers and GTM wings/badge are based on the ES skill.


True, but if you're an MP, you're going to have wings.  Why award wings to someone who already has them?  Also, since the rating itself does not rate wings, I suggested that the MP rating should rate the basic suggested ESQ badge for those that choose aircrew as a means of progression in CAP ES.
Lt Col, CAP

arajca

Quote from: dcpacemaker on December 01, 2005, 06:32:45 PM
Now I might see the merit in an all-encompassing badge for those specialties that don't currently have any shiny metal associated with them.  Lt Rajca's idea for a four-level badge would be great I think.  Add AL with IC and it seems like a fair compromise.  For example (remember, no need to earn this badge for a rating that currently has a badge/wing):
Basic:
FLM, IO, LO, MC, MP, MRO, MS, MSA, MSO, RM, TMP, and UDF

Leader:
AOBD, CUL, and FLS

Chief:
FASC, LSC, OSC, and PSC

Command:
IC (3, 2, and 1) and AL (3, 2, and 1)

Hell, while we're at it.  If you're a stills evaluator, you get a different colored badge or instead of the CAP seal in the middle of the badge, you have an "SE" seal.

Again though, I still think we have enough badges now.  YMMV.
The difference in my proposal was I put IO, LO, and MSO at the Leader level because their jobs are alot more complex than talking on a radio. Also, it is entirely possible for an IO or MSO to have deputies or assistants working for them. The LO position - and this is from a person who had the (mis)fortune to serve as one on a multiday incident - is probably the most stressful position besides the IC in the ICS program. You are required to be in almost constant contact with a number of organizations who do not otherwise fit in the ICS chart for the incident - this can include CAP in some instances. His advice - if someone asks you to be a Liaison Officer (LO), RUN. FAST. HIDE. NOW!

Pace

That makes sense.  I'll defer to your knowledge of the LO since I've never been one.  As for MSO and IO, I see where you're going with that, and I agree.
Lt Col, CAP

PhoenixRisen

Quote from: arajca on December 01, 2005, 06:11:25 PM
A proposal was submitted about this very issue I proposed the following (actually three proposals)
1. A scanner wing based on the solo wing with the Observer center.
2.  UDF badge - similar to GT badge, but with "UDF" in the center.
3. An Emergency Services Quaification badge - four levels [Basic, Leader(star),Chief(wreathed star),IC(star&scroll)]. Smiliar in design to the GT badge, but with an enamel center of the CAP logo (triangle & prop)

When was the proposal made? And when you mention ES qualification, are you talking about getting it(the Basic at least) for just completing the tests to be GES qualified?

arajca

I submitted it last year.

For GES - no. When you get your first ES rating (excluding GTM), you qualify for the basic badge. That would include MRO, FLM, MSA, etc.

PhoenixRisen

Does this mean you have to have the full rating, or can you be "Supervised Trainee Status" and get the badge, because that's what I have for MRO.

arajca

You would need a full rating. Until you get that, you just have GES rating.

However, until the NB or NEC approves it, this is still just a proposal.

Pace

Quote from: arajca on December 03, 2005, 11:54:22 PM
You would need a full rating. Until you get that, you just have GES rating.

However, until the NB or NEC approves it, this is still just a proposal.

Have either the NEC or NB looked at it and put in on their agenda?  I'm just trying to find out if NHQ is taking it seriously.
Lt Col, CAP

arajca

Haven't seen it there yet. I am following up with my wing cc (we are in the AFRCC Search Management Course this weekend). It may have gone to the Development Committee for staffing before it goes to the NB/NEC.