Wouldn't ONE Uniform for ALL Be Best?

[Turk]

Let's face it, folks - with seniors at least, right now, we have less uniformity than an Afghan irregular militia unit might have.

How about ONE uniform for ALL CAP members, seniors and cadets alike! This would include squared away seniors, chubby seniors, ancient seniors, and furry seniors... ALL of them!

How about an all-khaki single-breasted uniform, khaki shirt, and blue tie? Keep all the existing hats. Have metal rank on the coat, and AF blue rank on the shirt.

Keep all existing black corporate outergarmets. Keep the mess dress.

For all members joining after, say, 2010, make this THE mandatory uniform. For economy's sake and sanity's sake, put long phase-out dates on the AF blues, the blazer combo,  the double-breasted "Tony Pineda Uniform," and Air Force outer-garmets. Make it, say, seven years.

Presto -  on one glorious day in 2015, EVERY CAP member will have the SAME uniform.  The membership will thank us for the foresight that we showed back in 2008!   

[JohnKachenmeister]

We've had this discussion... a lot.

But, if you want to do this again, here is MY brilliant and inspired plan.  To disagree is to exhibit ignorance.

Service Dress:  Scrap the TPU, and create a single "Corporate" uniform styled after the Air Force's Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform.  Hap is a big part of OUR heritage, too.  It was because of him we were armed, and because of him we did not die as an branch of Civil Defense, but came into the Air Force as an auxiliary.  The Hap Arnold Heritage CAP Uniform would be the Air Force uniform with dark blue epaulets, dark blue officer sleeve braid, and a white aviator shirt.  The cadet uniform would be the same as the Air Force.  Put dark blue epaulet sleeves on the white shirt (with "CAP" on them).

Flight suit/BDU's:  Dark blue.  For everybody.  If its good enough for the Thunderbirds, its good enough for us.  Phase them in as slow as you like.

Golf shirt:  OK. 

Blazer:  OK for retirees, and IACE.

Mess Dress:  OK.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

If its good enough for the Thunderbirds, its good enough for us.  Phase them in as slow as you like.

The Thunderbirds are an elite organization -- CAP isn't! If anything, why not orange flight suits, since we're a SAR organization.

Oh, and I don't have a problem with the blues, except that it's not distinctive enough. The sleeve braid could be red or maroon, even a silver-gray (not the shiny aluminum) color.

But I'm still OK with the Air Force uniforms as they are right now. Just eliminate most of the non-Air Force uniforms and CAP's uniform scheme would be a lot less confounding.

Let's start with the golf shirt, the most unmilitary thing seniors wear. Might be good on the golf course, but not on CAP operations, especially when the general public is around. I don't enjoy the "but it's hot in Florida" contention. If the Real Military wears its uniforms in weather that's as bad or worse, CAP members can man up and wear the uniform too. We're the Air Force's auxiliary, not a flying club.

Boy, that last part was blunt.

[Hawk200]

Someone new had to stir the pot, eh?

Maybe we should have a sticky on each and every board about the use of that little button with the "search" label on it.

Would save a lot of annoyance from the new guy that's "going save all Civil Air Patrol from its ills".

Minimizing uniforms? Not a bad idea. Creating a uniform that would only be for CAP and cost an arm and a leg because of it's exclusivity? The only word that comes to mind is "boneheaded".

How's that for blunt?

[jeders]

Can we please have a lock on this as it has been beaten to death so many times before?

[Turk]

Pretty blunt all right, but hey, I'm thick-skinned.

Nothing specific or unique or expensive about khaki - in fact, the Navy is re-adopting it as we speak.

I'm glad that we at least agree that we need to reduce the number of uniforms. I'm willing to jettison my khakicentric proposal if you have a better idea. Just keep in mind that it can't be USAF blues, cuz' the USAF will gig us on furry CAP members and portly CAP members wearing it.

So, the floor is yours! What shall we standardize on for Class A wear?

[DC]

Use the search function and save us all some acid reflux!

Lock, please...

[Eclipse]

Can we please have a lock on this as it has been beaten to death so many times before?

I second...

[Hawk200]

Nothing specific or unique or expensive about khaki - in fact, the Navy is re-adopting it as we speak.

But that would be a Navy uniform. Any variation exclusive to CAP would be costly to us. Any slight variation is a new pattern as far as the provider would be concerned, and they would charge accordingly.

I'm glad that we at least agree that we need to reduce the number of uniforms. I'm willing to jettison my khakicentric proposal if you have a better idea. Just keep in mind that it can't be USAF blues, cuz' the USAF will gig us on furry CAP members and portly CAP members wearing it.

The main problem there is there are probably multiple camps on what should be the "sole" uniform. Some think that only an Air Force blues variation is appropriate. Others believe that since we're not military, then a Corporate Service dress can be the only option. Some think that the golf shirt is all we need to accompolish the mission. Still others think that cadets should wear Air Force, and seniors should wear a corporate. One suggestion made some time ago was to adopt Boy Scout uniforms.

So, the floor is yours! What shall we standardize on for Class A wear?

As you can see from above, that isn't a cut and dried concept. I've presented a few options in the past myself, but I'm actually tired of the battle. There are way too many variations theorized to make everyone happy. And there are plenty of people on here that have said that if their favorite wasn't the one ultimately agreed upon, they'd leave. See how it's a major can of worms?

I do believe that there should be far fewer options. But no-one agrees. This one is a heartburn debate.

[PHall]

What shall we standardize on for Class A wear?

What is this Class A you speak of?

We are the Auxiliary of the Air Force. The Air Force does not refer to their uniforms as Class A, B, C, etc.
And neither does the CAP Uniform Manual....

[Eclipse]

What shall we standardize on for Class A wear?

What is this Class A you speak of?

We are the Auxiliary of the Air Force. The Air Force does not refer to their uniforms as Class A, B, C, etc.
And neither does the CAP Uniform Manual....

Not THIS nonsense again, that issue is deader than this thread.

I just hope we can standardize on a COVER.  AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!

[Short Field]

If the Real Military wears its uniforms in weather that's as bad or worse, CAP members can man up and wear the uniform too. We're the Air Force's auxiliary, not a flying club.

I find it really amazing how some people always stress AF AUX, not the civilian aux to the USAF.  Semantics maybe - but that is how we are chartered.    We are the Civilian Auxiliary to the USAF.   Like it or not - CIVILIAN.

Man up??    Please...

[Hawk200]

I find it really amazing how some people always stress AF AUX, not the civilian aux to the USAF.  Semantics maybe - but that is how we are chartered.    We are the Civilian Auxiliary to the USAF.   Like it or not - CIVILIAN.

Civilian Auxiliary to the Air Force. Air Force Auxiliary. The terms have always been synonymous to me. One's a lot shorter to say(and type).

[DC]

Potato, Potato. Crap, that doesn't come out right when its typed...

Well, you get what I mean, same difference. All semantics.

[JoeTomasone]

I would be fine with the current blues, BDUs, and green flight suit for trim and clean members and the Aviator/White , Blue BDUs, abd blue flight suit for heavy/furry members.

Drop the golf shirt, blazer, corporate, and any other uniform I've forgotten.

Maybe keep the corporate service coat as a mess dress alternative for the heavy/furry?

[DC]

I would be fine with the current blues, BDUs, and green flight suit for trim and clean members and the Aviator/White , Blue BDUs, abd blue flight suit for heavy/furry members.

Drop the golf shirt, blazer, corporate, and any other uniform I've forgotten.

Maybe keep the corporate service coat as a mess dress alternative for the heavy/furry?

Sounds good, but I thought the Blazer was supposed to be the Service Dress/Mess Dress Corporate combo.

Also drop the 'Utility Uniform' jumpsuit. Anything you would wear that for you could also do in BBDUs.

Trims it down, and doesn't offend anyone except those that won't part with the polo. Which I think is a stretch to even consider as a uniform to begin with...

[Hawk200]

Trims it down, and doesn't offend anyone except those that won't part with the polo. Which I think is a strecth to even consider as a uniform to begin with...

Polo shirt's a uniform. I wear one when I deliver pizza...

[FW]

Potato, Potato. Crap, that doesn't come out right when its typed...

Well, you get what I mean, same difference. All semantics.

How about:  potayto, potahto?    

I'm beginning to wish we didn't wear uniforms at all.  It's hard to believe we've been on this subject, ahhhh, it seems forever.  Maybe we should just wear a name tag that says: "HI, ask me about CAP"  

[Turk]

Okay, as a newbie, I was not aware this issue had previously been beaten to death by the esteemed veterans of CAPTalk.

Sorry I raised it! I'm outta here...

[JohnKachenmeister]

Okay, as a newbie, I was not aware this issue had previously been beaten to death by the esteemed veterans of CAPTalk.

Sorry I raised it! I'm outta here...

Sissy!

[BuckeyeDEJ]

So much for fresh meat around here....

I think it's important to remember that Civil Air Patrol is the UNIFORMED civilian auxiliary of the Air Force. The uniform has always been a part of CAP, and that uniform has been either an AF or Army (as the AF's forebear) uniform.

So the traditional CAP uniform is, in fact, the Air Force's. As much as it would be nice to have ONE uniform for all, that's not practical unless the Air Force waves all weight and grooming standards. Ain't gonna happen. So ONE alternative for those who opt not to wear the military uniform is enough.

[Eclipse]

Okay, as a newbie, I was not aware this issue had previously been beaten to death by the esteemed veterans of CAPTalk.

Sorry I raised it! I'm outta here...

Just as a point of information EVERY issue to CAP has been raised here, however they all degrade into uniform, respect from big blue, and corporate vs. military.   :angel:

[Smithsonia]

I'm looking at a set of CAP SUNTANS. Khaki type but brighter and slightly (and I do mean slightly) yellow. We wore these in the 1940-60s range. The fabric predates synthetics... I'm thinking they were worsted tropical gabardine. This is one smart outfit. If I could fit in this set (and I can't) I'd have women all over me. Which wouldn't please my wife. Cary Grant never looked better even in a tux -- than when he wore Suntans. Not a real possibility I'm sure. If you've never seen a set. They were special.

Hap Arnold? Hap was dead and buried before that uniform was built. Bad looking uni in my opinion. Just as long as we don't wear the baby blues (powder blue summer double knits that made you sweat and cold simultaneously which was standard in the mid-60s) that I had to wear in the AF. Stick me in baby blues then execute me quick before some else sees me. I managed 4 years in the AF and only wore those double knit pieces of Polynesian goofiness 4 or 5 times. They were made as some demonic hypothermic medical experiment.

The new Coast Guard type looks OK in pictures but I haven't seen one on a real person yet. What do they look like in person?

With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[a2capt]

Just as a point of information EVERY issue to CAP has been raised here, however they all degrade into uniform, respect from big blue, and corporate vs. military.   :angel:

After all...

Gotta keep .. uniform. 

[BillB]

Changing the uniforms for the entire CAP membership will not work.  Why? Who is going to pay for the uniforms for cadets? If you went to khaki uniforms, obviously USAF is not going to supply them to cadets. The problm is there are to many uniform variations for seniors. Seniors can wear the USAF blues and the multitude of corporate uniform variations. That's where the changes are needed. To limit those variations.
If a change was made to a standard uniform other than AF blues or BDUs, you can forget about the cadet program.

[FW]

^The Air Force does NOT supply cadets with uniforms.  We pay for them with our grant.  The Air Force has agreed to let us spend taxpayers'  money on cadet uniforms and, I don't remember them ever putting a restriction on the kind of uniform we could buy them.

The cadet program is not dependent on this subject.  Now, do we really want to go through this topic again?  

[Major Carrales]

Some of you people are behaving dreadfully in this thread.   I hope y'all are pleased.  A lack of Intergrity, an disservice to a new person and to CAP for all those that will read this topic looking for info, a less than excellent display of civility and a disrespect for fellow CAP officers.  Hummm...some you you may need to join the cadets in a lesson in the CORE VALUES of CAP.

As for locking topic, they should lock this whole UNIFORM section.

[AlphaSigOU]

Well said, Maj. C.!

Let's give the new guy the benefit of the doubt; he probably didn't realize that any talk about changing our uniform into anything other than AF-style or current corporates would stir up a hornet's nest ot titanic proportions.

[DC]

Here is an old related thread...

NOTE: I'm not suggesting we start this circular argument again, but if anyone is interested:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3752.0

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm looking at a set of CAP SUNTANS. Khaki type but brighter and slightly (and I do mean slightly) yellow. We wore these in the 1940-60s range. The fabric predates synthetics... I'm thinking they were worsted tropical gabardine. This is one smart outfit. If I could fit in this set (and I can't) I'd have women all over me. Which wouldn't please my wife. Cary Grant never looked better even in a tux -- than when he wore Suntans. Not a real possibility I'm sure. If you've never seen a set. They were special.

Hap Arnold? Hap was dead and buried before that uniform was built. Bad looking uni in my opinion. Just as long as we don't wear the baby blues (powder blue summer double knits that made you sweat and cold simultaneously which was standard in the mid-60s) that I had to wear in the AF. Stick me in baby blues then execute me quick before some else sees me. I managed 4 years in the AF and only wore those double knit pieces of Polynesian goofiness 4 or 5 times. They were made as some demonic hypothermic medical experiment.

The new Coast Guard type looks OK in pictures but I haven't seen one on a real person yet. What do they look like in person?

With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Ed:

I was a cadet in the mid 60's (63-66) and I do not remember the uniform of which you speak.  I wore khaki 505's and later 1505's, which was a GREAT uniform.  The service dress blue was a very heavy wool abortion that was no good in the summer, but could be used for Arctic survival in the winter.  If it got REALLY cold there was an even heavier overcoat.  The light blue shirt that was worn with the blues was God-awful.  Cotton, or something, and needed serious ironing to look even presentable.  Then the wrinkles re-appeared after you wore the jacket for 30 minutes. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Changing the uniforms for the entire CAP membership will not work.  Why? Who is going to pay for the uniforms for cadets? If you went to khaki uniforms, obviously USAF is not going to supply them to cadets. The problm is there are to many uniform variations for seniors. Seniors can wear the USAF blues and the multitude of corporate uniform variations. That's where the changes are needed. To limit those variations.
If a change was made to a standard uniform other than AF blues or BDUs, you can forget about the cadet program.

Bill:

THAT is precisely why I suggested that the officers go to an AF-like corporate uniform, but the cadets do not.  Making a uniform that is essentially AF but with enough differences to be instantly recognizable as a CAP uniform is in keeping with our heritage and in keeping with the AF's hypersensitivity to their "Image" problems represented by old and out-of shape CAP types.

That's OK, I don't need thanks and congratulations for my brilliant input.  It is enough for me to just rest in the quiet assurance that I am always right.

[Duke Dillio]

Since we are stirring up the pot again, here you go:

Common headgear?

BERETS FOR ALL!!!!!!

Viva la resistance!!!

[Major Carrales]

Since we are stirring up the pot again, here you go:

Common headgear?

BERETS FOR ALL!!!!!!

Viva la resistance!!!

We're about three posts away from a lock here.  Cue MIKE! (sorry MIKE, but this is where you usually come in and "pop a LOCK."

[Turk]

Okay, as a newbie, I was not aware this issue had previously been beaten to death by the esteemed veterans of CAPTalk.

Sorry I raised it! I'm outta here...

Sissy!

Ruminant!

[billford1]

Given the fact that the never ending uniform controversy wont go away even if this one gets locked people wont stop asking. With all the National Board activity on this we're told that there are proposals remaining to be approved which involve the USAF. Gen Courter alluded to this in a 1 Apr 08 policy letter.  There's no shortage of CAP members who agree that the present uniform structure needs a lot of work. If I were a wing commander I would lobby for the right to tell everybody (seniors) to show up in the same uniform for a given activity.

[Gunner C]

Given the fact that the never ending uniform controversy wont go away even if this one gets locked people wont stop asking. With all the National Board activity on this we're told that there are proposals remaining to be approved which involve the USAF. Gen Courter alluded to this in a 1 Apr 08 policy letter.  There's no shortage of CAP members who agree that the present uniform structure needs a lot of work. If I were a wing commander I would lobby for the right to tell everybody (seniors) to show up in the same uniform for a given activity.

If I'm not mistaken, the wing commander has that authority.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Given the fact that the never ending uniform controversy wont go away even if this one gets locked people wont stop asking. With all the National Board activity on this we're told that there are proposals remaining to be approved which involve the USAF. Gen Courter alluded to this in a 1 Apr 08 policy letter.  There's no shortage of CAP members who agree that the present uniform structure needs a lot of work. If I were a wing commander I would lobby for the right to tell everybody (seniors) to show up in the same uniform for a given activity.

That might be a bit tough.

I could order everyone into BDU or equivalent, but some would have to show up in blue BDU, others in Camo.  It simply is the current nature of the beast.

[billford1]

Even woodland camo and BBDUs are better by themselves than when added to 2 different polo shirts & grey slacks, green flight suits, blue flight suits, plus both aviator shirt uniforms grey slacks and blue. This is what I've seen. Yes the wing commander has the authority but the impetus should come from NHQ.

[FW]

I'm sorry guys,  haven't we heard this over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?

This is what we got.  We could simplify the "collection".  It would mean abandoning our Air Force service uniform with distinctive markings.  It would mean grooming standards which allow for long hair/beards.  It would mean griping from the ones who object to the above.  It would mean more discussions on CAPTALK about uniforms.......

Uh, Oh...   Circular converstation  Danger... Danger....  

[billford1]

Yes we have. So lets close this topic thread already.

[billford1]

Yes we have. But it's not about the AF uniform. It's also not about acceptance of beards and long hair with the AF uniform where weight and grooming standards apply. There are too many other uniforms that don't apply to the AF.  I think what Turk had in mind when the thread opened was about trying to look, think and act like a team.

[Hawk200]

What happened to "close this thread" ?

It will die if it's left to.

[MIKE]

Ok, closing this one so the next FNG poster can start the same topic next month.