FO Rank on a Flight Suit

Started by thefischNX01, September 15, 2005, 02:53:09 AM

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thefischNX01

I just finished my MS qualification, and now that I'm eligible to wear a flightsuit, what kind of rank do I put on it?  They don't sell my rank in the plastic encased bars.  Should I just leave it blank?
Capt. Colin Fischer, CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Easton Composite Sqdn
Maryland Wing
http://whats-a-flight-officer.blogspot.com/

MIKE

Quote from: thefischNX01 on September 15, 2005, 02:53:09 AM
I just finished my MS qualification, and now that I'm eligible to wear a flightsuit, what kind of rank do I put on it?  They don't sell my rank in the plastic encased bars.  Should I just leave it blank?

Leave them blank... IIRC you can put your grade on the ASNP (Aircrew Style Name Patch) though.

Mike Johnston

Pylon

Unfortunately, this is a situation where CAP regs require something and CAPMart will not supply it.  In fact, it must be a case of "CAPMart refuses to supply it" because metal, plastic-encased grade insignia for flight officers has been needed as long as CAP has had metal grade insignia on flight suits (and that's been at least 8+ years, to my recollection).  You would think that'd give CAPMart enough time to find a supplier and get them made, but nooo....

Unfortunately, I guess you would go without grade insignia and just have your grade on your ASNP, as Mike suggested.   :-\
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Matt

Here's an unheard of idea:  If you are a TFO, well, when you make TFO, goto an Army BX or PX and buy the CWO5 plastic encased insignia.  It looks an AWFUL lot alike the TFO grade.

Matt
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

arajca

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 01:31:36 PM
Here's an unheard of idea:  If you are a TFO, well, when you make TFO, goto an Army BX or PX and buy the CWO5 plastic encased insignia.  It looks an AWFUL lot alike the TFO grade.

Matt
Except the CWO5 insignia is a black stripe on a chrome bar and the FO is a silver stripe on a blue bar. TFO is two silver stripes on a blue bar.

Pylon

...and on top of that, you've got to cob-job the "plastic-encasing" with some home lamination stuff or something.   ::)

The point is, if the uniform manual has required something for over a decade, CAP members ought to have somewhere to buy it from.  We shouldn't be left to our own devices to have to meet regulations.

That's like saying "Every CAP Captain must now wear this device on their flight cap....  but nobody is going to ever sell this to you, good luck meeting the regs." 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

thefischNX01

Is it possible to just take the BDU insignia and put it on?  It might not look tooo pretty but it would still meet the regs...somewhat....
Capt. Colin Fischer, CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Easton Composite Sqdn
Maryland Wing
http://whats-a-flight-officer.blogspot.com/

Matt

Here's the Army Master Chief Warrant Officer, or CWO 5:

And if you take a smidge of blue you find:

If you wear the nice, comfortable, but unregulation ECWCS Parka, the Army CWO5 insignia would be the subdued version of the TFO grade, so I thought the minor change (of black to blue with a marker), to those at a glance would be unknown and, perhaps, might even be of use for the flight suit.

<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

MIKE

Quote from: thefischNX01 on September 15, 2005, 02:52:54 PM
Is it possible to just take the BDU insignia and put it on?  It might not look tooo pretty but it would still meet the regs...somewhat....

I would say that no it doesn't... At least until they authorize cloth grade... Which makes sense IMO.

Mike Johnston

arajca

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 03:03:33 PM
Here's the Army Master Chief Warrant Officer, or CWO 5:

And if you take a smidge of blue you find:

If you wear the nice, comfortable, but unregulation ECWCS Parka, the Army CWO5 insignia would be the subdued version of the TFO grade, so I thought the minor change (of black to blue with a marker), to those at a glance would be unknown and, perhaps, might even be of use for the flight suit.


1. The ECWCS parka is considered by CAP to be a "civilian" or "non-uniform" jacket. Therefore NO CAP insignia is authorized to be worn on it. This includes grade insignia and name tapes. The "but everyone does it" argument won't work. If at some future date, the Air Force allows us to officially use it, then things may change.
2. CAP cannot wear subdued insignia, except for authorized military insignia, i.e. jump wings, CFMB, etc. And we DO NOT wear subdued grade insignia.

Matt

#10
Quote from: arajca on September 15, 2005, 04:02:46 PM
1. The ECWCS parka is considered by CAP to be a "civilian" or "non-uniform" jacket. Therefore NO CAP insignia is authorized to be worn on it. This includes grade insignia and name tapes. The "but everyone does it" argument won't work. If at some future date, the Air Force allows us to officially use it, then things may change.
2. CAP cannot wear subdued insignia, except for authorized military insignia, i.e. jump wings, CFMB, etc. And we DO NOT wear subdued grade insignia.

Now, however would I see that coming....  ::)

I'm finding what you said a tad contradicted.  You've stated that the Gore Tex (ECWCS) Parka is not an authorized outer garment.  Well, before even looking in the regulations, you are correct, it is not, no argument there.  You've also stated that we cannot wear subdued insignia, with being to lazy to argue it, I won't.  However, placing both of those things together in one block gives way to someone saying: "Well wait, if it's civilian, why can I not do as I want with it?"  So, in a matter of speaking, subdued grade can be worn on the Gore Tex parka, because it is not governed by any of our regulations.

Now, there is a catch in what I have said.  I'll admit it, just so that it cannot be brought against me.  The Air Force has the Gore Tex Parka authorized, or has been minimally accepted enough that they really don't care about it, I'll admit, I haven't looked into their regulations on it.  The controversy that would arrive given you have, pardon it, one ass of an inspector, would be: "Why are you not in accordance with regulation and have your insignia marked with a 'CAP'?"  So, to overshoot this argument, one would logically place on a CAP Cut-out above or below their grade.  But because there is no prescribe of wear, one cannot tell you to remove it because it is after all a civilian outer garment.

Perhaps, because they are so worn, National HQ should have come up with some guidance on them.  Realistically, however, they probably did not because of a matter of reasons including, but not limited to: supply of them to units.  Then again, maybe they're waiting and they'll give us each one with our next paycheck.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

SarDragon

Item stocking at CAP Mart has a lot to do with demand. It costs more for a small batch of an item than a large batch. What do you think the demand for FO rank insignia is? Probably less than that for Cadet Colonels. The longest someone can wear FO stuff is three years, and often less due to promotions.

CAP MART is a really low volume operation compared with AAFES, and can't take advantages of the same breaks they get.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Slim

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 01:31:36 PM
Here's an unheard of idea:  If you are a TFO, well, when you make TFO, goto an Army BX or PX and buy the CWO5 plastic encased insignia.  It looks an AWFUL lot alike the TFO grade.

Matt


I don't think the army has full color, plastic encased rank for their zoom bags, all I've ever seen is subdued cloth.


Slim

Matt

I'm honestly not sure, but hey, it can't hurt to try, can it?  The other idea, however more of a clusterflop, would be AFROTC insignia.  For their officers they have flat lines, MAYBE, just maybe they have something for flight suits, I'm not in AFROTC so I dunno, perhaps someone out there in the neatherworld of CAPTALK may know.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

Bluelakes 13

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 04:11:20 PM
I’m finding what you said a tad contradicted.  You’ve stated that the Gore Tex (ECWCS) Parka is not an authorized outer garment.  Well, before even looking in the regulations, you are correct, it is not, no argument there. 

A clarification here:  The GoreTex Parka is not authorized for Senior Members.  But, since Cadets can wear civilian coats over their uniforms, they probably can wear it  It's a bit of a gray area, but this interpretation isn't off.  BUT, a Commander can view the Gore Tex parka as military clothing and forebid it for cadets also.  Now why a cadet would order such an expensive item, beats me.

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 04:11:20 PM
You’ve also stated that we cannot wear subdued insignia, with being to lazy to argue it, I won’t.  However, placing both of those things together in one block gives way to someone saying: “Well wait, if it’s civilian, why can I not do as I want with it?”  So, in a matter of speaking, subdued grade can be worn on the Gore Tex parka, because it is not governed by any of our regulations.

LOL.  39-1 works both ways: it specifies what uniforms to wear and what to put on them, AND what items insignia can be put on.  In other words, you can not put CAP insignia on anything other than the uniforms specified. 

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 04:11:20 PM
I’ll admit it, just so that it cannot be brought against me.  The Air Force has the Gore Tex Parka authorized, or has been minimally accepted enough that they really don’t care about it, I’ll admit, I haven’t looked into their regulations on it. 

I hear this excuse a lot.  "Service X does it, why can't we".  Simple answer:  if 39-1 doesn't say you can, you can not.  It's irrelevant what the USAF can do.

Matt

Quote from: jkalemis on September 16, 2005, 02:55:28 PM
A clarification here:  The GoreTex Parka is not authorized for Senior Members. 

Ok, back up a bit.  I'll admit to being 1/2 wrong - 1/2, and you're 1/2 correct on being unauthorized.

The Gore Tex Parka, can indeed be warn, HOWEVER, it will not be warn with the USAF uniforms.

Table 4-7. Men's and Women's CAP Utility Uniform
Outergarments
Since the utility uniform is uniquely CAP and is not a USAF clothing item, any type cold weather outergarment may be worn including the blue flight jacket.

Table 4-8. Men's and Women's CAP Field Uniform
Outergarments
Since the field uniform is uniquely CAP and is not a USAF clothing item, any type cold weather outergarment may be worn.

So, although the manual does not authorize it, it is authorized for wear with the Utility and the field uniforms for the mere fact that it is a cold weather clothing item.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

MIKE

Quote from: jkalemis on September 16, 2005, 02:55:28 PM
Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 04:11:20 PM
I'm finding what you said a tad contradicted.  You've stated that the Gore Tex (ECWCS) Parka is not an authorized outer garment.  Well, before even looking in the regulations, you are correct, it is not, no argument there. 

A clarification here:  The GoreTex Parka is not authorized for Senior Members.  But, since Cadets can wear civilian coats over their uniforms, they probably can wear it  It's a bit of a gray area, but this interpretation isn't off.  BUT, a Commander can view the Gore Tex parka as military clothing and forebid it for cadets also.  Now why a cadet would order such an expensive item, beats me.

Show me where in CAPM 39-1 it says that cadets or any member for that matter may wear "civilian outerwear" with any Air Force style uniform.
Mike Johnston

Matt

#17
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 para. 1-5
Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard does not automatically permit its wear.

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.  Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.


I'm merely going to set this up for an organized argument.  Please note above for cadets, and it is true that cadets are not required to have more than the minimum uniform, this included outer garments.  Now, I'm not going to tell someone that they cannot wear a jacket when it's cold out because it's not in the regs, are you willing to, sir?

If you're going to fight with regs, I'm simply going to state, remember the Safety Pledge.  Telling someone that they may not wear a coat WILL compromise a safety environment.

Furthermore, that would, in most cases also authorize civilian outer garments for SM's.  When SAFETY is concern.  I've noted that you're from MA, you should know about crappy winter conditions, around here, they're worse.  I'm not going to lie when I say that I wear a ECWCS parka.  I wear it because it's warmer than the M-65, windproof and highly water resistant.

I've seen cases like this arise before about wearing civilian outer garments, and they were quickly put to rest when safety came into play.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

Bluelakes 13

Quote from: MIKE on September 16, 2005, 03:43:21 PM
Show me where in CAPM 39-1 it says that cadets or any member for that matter may wear "civilian outerwear" with any Air Force style uniform.

Hmmm, I checked and I did not find any language saying this.  Maybe it's a Wing addendum. 

It's certainly a safety exception.  Coats are not provided to cadets with their uniforms.   Expecting them to buy the coats is unrealistic.  So for about half the year I would not want to see a cadet walking around without a coat.  I would make a safety exception for them to wear civilian coats over their uniforms rather than risk health issues.

I bet if National HQ was in the northern states this oversight would be taken care of quickly!

Bluelakes 13

#19
Doh!  The fine cadet said it better than I!

;)

I admit, it does look dodgy, but no way in hell am I sending a cadet home with a bad cold, or worse.
http://group22.net/gle05/05week2/img_0476.htm