November NEC Meeting -Cadet on NB?

[jeders]

Remember, cadets are just as much members of this corporation as you or I.

No more, no less.

If that is the case my dues should be $20 per year lower.  I suppose I could make an argument that because I pay more I have more say, just as a stock holder with more shares has more say.

Wow. If we're gonna use that reasoning, then half of American citizens will have virtually no access to government because they pay such a low percentage of federal taxes while a very small portion of citizens pay the vast majority of taxes.

I can say as a former cadet that joined at 16, I knew then about much of the politics going on and was glad that everyone was more concerned about developing me into a good leader and a functioning member of society than shielding me from the politics of the organization. Now I agree that we should protect the 12 through 14 year old cadets from some of the nastier politics going on because they likely lack maturity, but we shouldn't be shielding 17+ year old cadets, who are the ones likely to serve on NB should this go through.

As far as a 14 year old cadet taking this post, I doubt that would happen simply because they would likely have to have experience on NCAC first which takes time to get to that point. If they're considered mature enough to serve on NCAC, then I think that they're mature enough to tell a room full of old men and women what the cadets think about a topic. Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

[JayT]

If that is the case my dues should be $20 per year lower.  I suppose I could make an argument that because I pay more I have more say, just as a stock holder with more shares has more say.

That is without a doubt, the most patronizing and one of the most insulting posts I've ever read as a cadet. How dare you suggest that myself, and my fellow cadets contributions are less important then your because we spend less money on yearly dues.

If you wanna play that game, lets figure out how much you and I spend on uniforms, equipment, gas, squadron dues, donations, food for activities, etc etc etc each year. Infact, lets pick our National Commander from the person who spends the most money on CAP each year. Promotions and staff position should also be based on that.

[Ned]

If that is the case my dues should be $20 per year lower.  I suppose I could make an argument that because I pay more I have more say, just as a stock holder with more shares has more say.

There is nothing to suggest that the amount of dues a member pays equates to any sort of special privileges.  Otherwise, only the members of the unit with the highest local dues in the wing with the highest wing dues, in the region with the highest region dues would be the "real" members.  Everyone else (including you and me, I suspect) would have to be some sort of lesser member.

If every member is an equal member in the organization why don't you or I have access to what goes on behind "closed doors" during the NB meetings?  Because it isn't appropriate for every member of the organization to have that information. 

Interesting question.  As it turns out there is nothing in our Constitution or Bylaws that provides any authority to allow CAP, Inc., a federally chartered charitable corporation to hold "closed sessions" of the BoG, NEC, or NB to conduct the business of the corporation.

[Concerning the schedule conflict between the NB abd NCAC.]
That sounds like a pretty easy fix to me - change the schedule.  Unless the new NB member wasn't a member of the NCAC, that "problem" wouldn't be resolved anyway.

Neither body can really reschedule.  Both hold essentially full-day meetings during the same weekend, and the same weekend is used for several reasons including the logistics of transportation and housing and allowing at least limited contact between the NB and NCAC.

Remember, the combined travel budget for all of the NB members is hundreds of thousands of dollars yearly.  The travel budget for the NCAC had been "zero'd out" several times in recent years.

And finally, under the current proposal, the cadet rep to the NB need not be the NCAC chair -- it merely requires that the NCAC "selects" the rep.  As a practical matter, the rep is unlikely to be the NCAC chair for reasons I've described.

[jimmydeanno]

That is without a doubt, the most patronizing and one of the most insulting posts I've ever read as a cadet. How dare you suggest that myself, and my fellow cadets contributions are less important then your because we spend less money on yearly dues.

Take it as you will. 

However, that is my point - cadets and officers are NOT equals in this organization.  However, that doesn't mean that cadets are second class citizens, our purposes in the program are different.  The ADULT leadership is here to run the organization and administer the cadet program, cadets are here to participate in the cadet program.

I am not saying that the contributions of the cadets are any better or worse than that of officers, simply...different. Without cadets our cadet program would be a failure.

[alice]

Ned:  Your earlier comment above about the NB freezing out any cadet input on a cadet issue and your gentlemanly reminder about there being no CAP Constitution & Bylaws bits allowing "closed sessions" just goes to show what the recent NB and NEC leadership really cares about when faced with decisions to be made.

The CAP I joined was an organization intended by Congress to use general aviation for local and national emergencies, and to run an aviation youth program.  Given my local composite squadron is next door to a huge NASA faciltiy complete with a very active public aviation education office, my local squadron "let's them do the AE mission" locally most often.  ; )

So.... I've seen lots and lots of NB meetings.  Several BoG meetings, too.  Almost two decades worth of cadets growing up.... including out at my local squadron this past weekend during a SAREx where I did IC-t duty.

If any NEC members read this thread who are not still active with a local squadron with cadets, I wish I could tell you how important it is to get a CAP cadet a real voice on our NB.  If you think it's not "right", too complicated "legally", or have any other excuses, quibbles, or qualms, I dare you to face in person any of our CAP cadet LtCols and tell that to their faces while trying to say at the same time that CAP has  a program to develop Youth Leaders for America.

Alice

[Ned]

Ned:  Your earlier comment above about the NB freezing out any cadet input on a cadet issue and your gentlemanly reminder about there being no CAP Constitution & Bylaws bits allowing "closed sessions" just goes to show what the recent NB and NEC leadership really cares about when faced with decisions to be made.

Alice,

My comments were not meant to be critical of our current leadership.  The rules concerning who may address the NB and the practice of closing meetings have been in place far longer than most of the individuals currently serving as our volunteer leaders.



Indeed, I think that the BoG, NEC, and NB probably should be able to meet in closed session for certain limited purposes, like discussing pending litigation or personnel matters that involve the evaluation, hiring, or firing of senior corporate employees.

But they need to pass some rules that clearly lay out the limited purposes for which they can close sessions so the membership and/or the other stakeholders can be assured of the propriety of the actions taken behind closed doors.  Sunlight and air are some of the best ways to avoid some of the recent issues we have all experienced.

Without such rules, I think it may well be improper to close any portion of the meeting to members or the general public, but perhaps more importantly we can never know if what they are discussing must truly be private for legitimate reasons like preserving attorney-client privilege or if they simply want to keep some embarrassing material out of sight.

[BillB]

To often in the past, the National Board has changed regulations or policies affecting the cadet program with no input from cadets. Often the changes are recommended by National Headquarters Staff who have had litlle or no contact with cadet Squadrons. The current 52-16 is a good example. The original concept of the CAC was to have cadets elect their representatives and approved by the Commander at each level. Now all CAC representatives are appointed. Often the appointed representative is afraid to bring problems or suggestions to the Commander in fear he'll be replaced or often was appointed because he's the Commanders "pet" cadet.
A voice from cadets at the National Board would seem to be a welcome avenue of communication. And what is discussed at the National Board that a cadet shouldn't hear. This idea of "protecting the children" does more to harm the cadet program due to the extremes in members attitudes of what is acceptable for cadets and the cadet program.

[Cecil DP]

I  see no reason that an Ad-hoc member to represent the cadets and ask or answer questions regarding the Cadet Program. The other Ad-hoc members (Chaplain, Legal, Medical, and IG) don't seem to be hampering the running of the NB. why would a cadet who is of legal age not be able to give his input when asked?

[ddelaney103]

I  see no reason that an Ad-hoc member to represent the cadets and ask or answer questions regarding the Cadet Program. The other Ad-hoc members (Chaplain, Legal, Medical, and IG) don't seem to be hampering the running of the NB. why would a cadet who is of legal age not be able to give his input when asked?

The important thing is that s/he would be able to give his/her opinion w/o being asked.  Only an NB member has the right to speak at a meeting - a member can ask that an outsider be allowed to speak, but the Board can say no.

[Tim Medeiros]

Personally, I like the idea, when I was a cadet seeing various items coming down from the NB affecting the cadet program I was more often than not thinking to myself "What the ...".  Yes, the cadet would be able to voice their opinion on any topic as a member of the board, but most Phase 4 cadets I know also know when to keep their trap shut, especially if they know they are on the board to offer opinions on items that would affect the cadet program.

[ZigZag911]

Most universities have student representatives on boards of trustees, search committees for presidents and deans, and so forth....voting members, I might add. 

College students, ordinarily, range between 17 & 23 years of age.

I can see setting some age & rank requirements for selection as cadet rep to NB; my view offhand is minimum 16 years old with and Earhart.

Under no circumstances should the cadet rep sit in on 'executive sessions' where the hiring, firing, and promotion of NHQ personnel may arise....just doesn't seem appropriate.

But for the rest of it, it's past time we listened to cadet officers....sometimes they are over the top, but just as often they make more sense than the brass!

[Major Carrales]

Our Cadet Program is supposed to be training future leaders and outstanding citizens.  A Cadet Field Grade Officer sitting on that panel should, if our cadet program works, be able to handle that task.  I have seen Wing CACs work more effectively than many local school boards and other governmental bodies.

I have no problem with giving a CADET VOICE to the program that will directly effect them.  I only ask that said cadet be up to the task and a contributor, not merely a warm body.

Have faith in the cadets...if not, what good is our program in the grand scheme of things.

Again, I have no objection.

[Psicorp]

Just make it so the NCAC chair can address the NB without needing to be recognized, but not a member of the NB.  At least that way they can be "dismissed" for the more adult "discussions."

Part of the problem is that the NCAC is usually meeting at the same time as the NB, both of which are conducting their normal business.  It is difficult or impossible for the NCAC chair to do her/his job -- leading the NCAC -- while at the same time attending and contributing to the NB meeting.

And to the extent that the "ability for cadets to bring their concerns and comments to the national level is already in place, it just isn't utilized the way it should be," it isn't the fault of the cadets.  That's why this proposal will help ensure the NB has be benefit of cadet input.

The CAC has never lived up to its potential, at least not that I ever saw.   The NB and the NEC has their own committies and subcommitties to look at questions and issues, why shouldn't the NB and NEC pass along items to the NCAC for them to look at and then seriously take into consideration their opinion before a vote is taken?

I've always said that the Cadet Program is the Cadets' program. 

[flyguy06]

You guys forget, a "cadet" is someone in training. A cadet is a trainee. Training to be a Senior member someday. His/her whole purpose is to learn, not to regulate or make decisions effecting the corporation. Their job is to learn o be a leader.

[ZigZag911]

The maturity issue aside, the average Spaatz or Eaker cadet has as much (in some cases far more!) CAP experience as many of our corporate officers of recent vintage!

[jeders]

You guys forget, a "cadet" is someone in training. A cadet is a trainee. Training to be a Senior member someday. His/her whole purpose is to learn, not to regulate or make decisions effecting the corporation. Their job is to learn o be a leader.

I've always said it and always will say it, you can't learn unless you do.

[pixelwonk]

The NCO conversation was split from the "cadet on NB" discussion. 
...as you were. :unlock:

[Ford73Diesel]

I don't see a problem with it, although a lot of SM's I know would get all bent out of shape.

[RiverAux]

#2 Regional Chaplains have never been full Colonels. The idea was bounced around a few years ago but they have never been full Colonels. I have talked to several CAP members who have been in for 50 years plus and have been at National Level for the past 10 and this was recently thought of.

Someone better tell the NEC, because that is what the proposal they're looking at says. 

[Falshrmjgr]

Is there an argument here against, that doesn't degenerate to an ad hominem comment on Cadets?  Good lord, let's be honest, this would be the most competitive position a cadet could aspire to.  It would the best of the best.  One of the brightest in our pool of fantastic youth.

"Yeah, but he's still just a kid"

Give me a youthful view on the world full of idealism any day over the cynicism that I see everywhere else. 


Let's see what would this Cadet probably look like?

Spaatz Winner, 4.0+ GPA, 1300+ SAT, accepted to multiple Ivy League schools, as well as potentially accepted to a  Service Academy.  Yeah, no one should hear an opinion from THAT.