CAWG moving 4 aircraft to NVWG & AZWG

[calguy]

I understand that CAWG has modified it's MOU with Nevada Wing so NVWG will cover all of the CAWG east of the top of the Sierras down to Barstow and over to Needles.  AZWG will cover all of CAWG's Imperial County and Riverside County from the Colorado River to an area near Desert Center.  In exchange, CAWG will lose 4 aircraft, 2 to AZ and 2 to NVWG.  I guess the whole secret MOU came to lite from the Fossett search.  Also, ORWG will cover much of Northern California and the Wing will lose possibly 1 aircraft to ORWG.  The reason is that CAWG has been unable to find crews to fly its aircraft on missions in those areas as well as being unable to find crews to fly in the LA basin.  I am told at least 3 aircraft, Brackett, Hemet and Fallbrook will be moved out of the wing.  Anyone hear who is #4?  I was told they picked those 3 because they have flown less than 2 A-1 missions in the last year and the same for the previous year.  I also have been told the sheriff's are flying many of our missions now because we cannot find crews.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

As the Squadron Commander for Hemet, I am totally unaware of any such move by wing to take our aircraft.   Furthermore, our aircraft has been used in many A-1 and other funded missions every year.   I myself have flown a number of A-1's this year, so your information is incorrect.   Our aircraft was used both by our  own squadron members and other squadrons on the Fosset Search.  We have done many ELT and real missions every year.   So your facts are wrong.  I hope the rest of your information on the loss of CAWG aircraft is also wrong.

[SARPilotNY]

I am glad to see that the Wing is finally taking action to move aircraft that won't carry their weight.  When I was in CAWG they were always begging for aircraft and nobody would respond.  With over 200 mission is SO CAL, it was known that several units NEVER responded.  I really wonder exactly how many Brackett, Hemet and Fallbrook did do?  Palm Springs was always getting criticized for "taking" all the missions when all they were were bottom feeders.  They took the missions when nobody else would.  I remember hearing of ELTs being found in CAP Flights at the airport and some guy would have to drive one hundred miles, through three groups, pass at least  10 squadron to turn an ELT on in a CAP aircraft or next to a CAP aircraft.  Pretty sad.  Hemet?  How many times did Palm Springs fly past you to get to a mission?  How many ELTs have been shut off at your airport but somebody from another unit?  How many of those A-1 missions were when your members were already at the airport for a B or C mission when they responded?  How many were after midnight? 
I think you wing commander looked at all the "real" numbers when he made his decision.  Going to a mission when it is convenient just for your members is disrespectful to the rest that have to drive  or fly to or through your area of operation to turn an ELT off.

I think those are the facts. 

Am I wrong?

BTW...what is the difference between an ELT mission and a real mission?

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Since I do not know who you are SARPilotNY I will withhold any comments.  However, in answer to your question what is the difference between an ELT mission and a "real" mission.   I will say this, I consider all missions "real" in that they need to be responded to.  However, what I meant in my post when I said "real mission" was a downed aircraft. 

I cannot say enough good things about the Palm Springs squadron.  They are great and do more than their share of missions.   However, we at Hemet do our part also.   When the airplane went down in the mountains above Palm Springs a year or so ago, it was our airplane with myself and Maj. Adams that were trying to find it in winds so high, we finally had to abort and RTB.  If you were in the California Wing at that time I am sure you heard of the incident.   

Our plane and pilots very often fly a type of mission that OPSEC will not allow me to talk about here.   Our pilots have also been very active in the Cadet O Ride program.   There are many uses for the corporate airplane beyond "A" Missions, although we do those too when possible and given the chance.  As a matter of fact, I just checked our records and so far for 2007 we have completed  (4) A-1 Missions totaling 43.1 hours, and (5) A-3 Missions totaling 67.8 hours.  Thats 110 hours on A Missions and the year is not over yet.  Hemet is a great Squadron and I resent any implication that we are not doing our part.   

That being said, we can and will do better.  We have just recently had two of our pilots get thier CFI rating, done in our airplane at their own personal expense.   They have done this so they can train future Mission Pilots.   With more pilots available we can do more missions.  We always have Scanners and Observers available, but we need more mission pilots that can take off work during the week and we are working on that.
 
While I respect your point of view, when you put these type of comments on an open forum, they hurt the good work we are trying to do.  Check the facts and you will see that Hemet's airplane's use is on the upper end for hours this year.   

I will be attending a meeting of Unit Commanders from our group with the Interim Wing Commander next weekend.   When I hear it from him, then I will believe it, until then, its just a rumor.

[SarDragon]

Fallbrook currently shares its plane with the San Diego unit, one week out of four. We put more hours on iy during our week than Fallbrook usually puts on it in their three. We are trying to get a 50-50 deal going, but the details haven't been hammered out yet. Maintenance is one issue, period length is another.

I have not heard anything at all about it leaving the wing. It is only one of two or three a/c in our group, and the farthest south asset in the wing.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Taking away the Fallbrook and Hemet Aircraft makes no sense.  San Diego has no aircraft other than the one at Fallbrook and I have already discussed my opinion on the Hemet airplane.     This would leave most of the South part of Southern California to be covered by Palm Springs.   They already do more than their part, so this would not be a good move.   I continue to believe this is just a rumor and there is no need to get upset until someone in authority confirms it.

[SARPilotNY]

Maybe they could move the Fallbrook aircraft closer to San Diego metroplex and the Hemet to AZ.  I know they have an aircraft at Riverside, Hemet could use or share that one.  Bracket and Cable are close, move one of those to NV.  Maybe that would encourage people to utilize the aircraft more often for SAR missions.  Hemet and Fallbrook are small towns away from the population centers.  Seems to make more sense having them closer to where the CAP masses are.  If the aircraft are being used mostly for planned missions and flights, a little drive time shouldn't be an issue.  I understand most pilots find Fallbrook and Hemet to be too far to go to get the aircraft for a SAR mission so they are rarely used.  Seems like a waste.  I don't recall either airport has ILS in place or towers.  The real issue is CAWG losing out on missions and flight hours because the aircraft are unavailable due to a lack of crews or interest by their units and having other wing carry CAWG's weight.

[SJFedor]

I know nothing of CAWG and how they work, where their assets are, etc., but....

...is it possible that they're keeping the planes down there where they are, and giving these 4 planes they're talking about from a completely different part of the state that has been lacking in usage? 

[SarDragon]

Maybe they could move the Fallbrook aircraft closer to San Diego metroplex and the Hemet to AZ.  I know they have an aircraft at Riverside, Hemet could use or share that one.  Bracket and Cable are close, move one of those to NV.  Maybe that would encourage people to utilize the aircraft more often for SAR missions.  Hemet and Fallbrook are small towns away from the population centers.  Seems to make more sense having them closer to where the CAP masses are.  If the aircraft are being used mostly for planned missions and flights, a little drive time shouldn't be an issue.  I understand most pilots find Fallbrook and Hemet to be too far to go to get the aircraft for a SAR mission so they are rarely used.  Seems like a waste.  I don't recall either airport has ILS in place or towers.  The real issue is CAWG losing out on missions and flight hours because the aircraft are unavailable due to a lack of crews or interest by their units and having other wing carry CAWG's weight.

BINGO! Hence the effort by my unit to get the Fallbrook a/c moved farther south to a much more convenient airport. I believe some of our folks actually did drive to Fallbrook to get the a/c for a mission. Dunno all the details, since I was chasing ELTs elsewhere.

[PHall]

I know nothing of CAWG and how they work, where their assets are, etc., but....

...is it possible that they're keeping the planes down there where they are, and giving these 4 planes they're talking about from a completely different part of the state that has been lacking in usage? 

More like someone is speculating about something they know nothing about.

[dbaran]

From looking in the NTC system  - It looks like 26 active aircraft - least used one had 121 hours on it, and the busiest had 552 hours.  8 of the aircraft had less than 200 hours on them.    Median was 223.

[SarDragon]

Over what period of time? When does the reporting year begin/end?

[dbaran]

Fiscal year; given when the reporting is done, it should be the last 12 months.

[SarDragon]

OK, thanks. I can't seem to get into that info any more.

[edit]Just tried -  I can get in again!

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

The Hemet airplane is N4810N check it yourself on NTC.  It has flown 236 total hours this year (2007).  This places us above the median, there are 17 aircraft in the Wing with less hours.   Our airplane has flown 138.8 Hours on A Missions; 45.6 on B Mission and 51.6 on C Missions.   

Contrary to what some have said about Hemet being a rural area, they must not have noticed the growth in Southwest Riverside County in the last ten years.  Our members come not only from Hemet, but from Temecula, Murrieta, Perris and Lake Elsinore area.   That is a population of hundreds of thousands of people.  In addition the Hemet airport has great weather most of the year.  Thats one of the reasons the Army Air Corps used it as a training base in WWII.   

[bosshawk]

Well guys, I am on the Wing Staff and have heard nothing about this "rumor".  Given that I also am the CD Officer, it is quite likely that I would have heard, since CD flies the hogs share of hours per year in this state.

Until I hear officially, it is an outhouse rumor.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Well guys, I am on the Wing Staff and have heard nothing about this "rumor".  Given that I also am the CD Officer, it is quite likely that I would have heard, since CD flies the hogs share of hours per year in this state.

Until I hear officially, it is an outhouse rumor.

Thank you Sir.

[Flying Pig]

I was a Riverside County Deputy Sheriff and a Hemet Police officer for 7 years.....There is nothing rural about it.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

I am happy to report that this thread is a baseless rumor.  I have just met with the Acting Wing Commander and he finds it laughable.   First of all he said there is no MOU's between Wings for ER Services.  He said California OES has an MOU with the California Wing of the Civil Air Patrol for our services.   Nevada and Arizona do not have an MOU with the California OES.   While we have an agreement  in which Southern Nevada will take some missions in eastern California when the weather or lack of crews keep us from flying east of the Sierra's, it is not an MOU to take over all missions.

Second regarding losing four airplanes.  His response was, "why would we do that we fly more missions in California than almost any other Wing in the country.  If anything we need more airplanes".

So there you have it.   Another unfounded rumor causing unnecessary friction among the members.   In the future, it would behove all those who post here to please check your facts before posting, it will make life easier for all of us.

[Short Field]

So we shouldn't have went out and put down deposits on hanger space based on this thread 

[a2capt]

Nah, more smoke and mirrors, from a non-team player who's got it all wrong.

Deposits on hangar space? Wanna buy a bridge to those hangars?

[SarDragon]

No, he said hanger space. Guess he needs a new closet! 

[wingnut]

FUBAR

[Short Field]

   Got to have some place to hang your pipe dreams....

[RiverAux]

For those interested, here is the actual MOU (from the NV Wing web page): http://www.nvwg.cap.gov/documents/CA-NV%20Signed%20MOU.PDF

[SARPilotNY]

The Hemet airplane is N4810N check it yourself on NTC.  It has flown 236 total hours this year (2007).  This places us above the median, there are 17 aircraft in the Wing with less hours.   Our airplane has flown 138.8 Hours on A Missions; 45.6 on B Mission and 51.6 on C Missions.   

Contrary to what some have said about Hemet being a rural area, they must not have noticed the growth in Southwest Riverside County in the last ten years.  Our members come not only from Hemet, but from Temecula, Murrieta, Perris and Lake Elsinore area.   That is a population of hundreds of thousands of people.  In addition the Hemet airport has great weather most of the year.  Thats one of the reasons the Army Air Corps used it as a training base in WWII.

I see from the MOU with Nevada that there is some truth to what's going on.  As far as the Hemet aircraft, just how many hours were A-1 missions?  Those are the ones that count the most since time is what matters on SAR missions.  I know when I was last in California (down south) that ICs are having a hard time finding crews to fly A-1 missions on a beautiful Saturday morning, let alone a Monday afternoon.  If crews are not available to fly the aircraft, the aircraft is out of service.  I remember squadrons begging for an aircraft only to have units with aircraft refusing to fly them of letting other take their aircraft.  Regardless, all wings should look at how the aircraft are used and make required changes.  We are not a flying club, but a S&R organization. 

Tags -MIKE

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

I see from the MOU with Nevada that there is some truth to what's going on.  As far as the Hemet aircraft, just how many hours were A-1 missions?  Those are the ones that count the most since time is what matters on SAR missions. 

There are many good members who might take issue with you when you say A-1 missions are "the ones that count the most".   Those that fly A-3 missions probably would not agree.   Those that fly Cadet O Rides I know would'nt agree.   While pilots flying C17 Missions to stay proficient, using their own money to do so, may agree that "A" Missions are very important, they probably would believe that C-17 Missions also have value, since A missions could not be flown without proficient pilots.   

However, I guess the opinion of California pilots do not count because an anonymous member from New York (who used to be from California) is the judge of what Missions count and which ones dont .   

As far as there being "some truth to the MOU", the only truth is that this agreement has been in effect since 1997 and was slightly modified and re-approved by a Wing Commander that is no longer with us.  It does not give carte blance authority for Nevada, Arizona and Oregon to take over California's duties east of the Sierra's.   It is for emergency situations such as bad weather, etc.    It does not require California to give up four aircraft.   Hemet, Fallbrook and Brackett are not losing their aircraft.   So what part of the original post is true?

[wingnut]

Its all a crock of crap, I along with several other Crew in my squadron we  have flown almost 200 hours each this year, now we include CD, WADs in that as well. but I know the guys down south are at the same missions I fly on so someone is getting bad scuttlebutt (remember what that means)

Our aircraft is broken a lot, so we avail ourselves to other squadron all the time , no problems, sometimes its a race to get to a plane. I think we should have a base like in the Guard with 4 planes on the tarmac and alert crews, in the air in an hour, yeah baby just like we did in SAC.

sirens Blair and up we go into the wild blue yonder

hmm that could be a great song

[a2capt]

I know when I was last in California (down south) that ICs are having a hard time finding crews to fly A-1 missions on a beautiful Saturday morning, let alone a Monday afternoon. 

Interesting observation there and the statistics on that would surprise you, if you backed away and looked at them.. as would the source of this particular scuttlebutt in and of itself. On the latter half of this statement, it's a crock.

[calguy]

I think the point is that A-1 missions are where time counts the most.  If we cannot support the A-1 missions in a timely manner than why are we involved in the S&R world? 
This morning the IC put out at least 4 pages for an aircraft and I understand the mission was turned over the the Sheriff.  Crock?  No fact!
Where are all the aircraft?  Where was Hemet, Brackett and Fallbrook?  Where was everyone else?  I went back over the last couple weeks and noticed several pages for aircraft where WMIRS and the IMU shows no aircraft available.  This past weekend traffic came out that an aircraft from northern California was used for a mission in San Diego.  I think the facts are that our folks have turned into what's called by many to be a flying club.  A-1s are the highest priority.  Fact!

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

The call was made at 2:00 a.m. Conditions were, as I understand it, IFR.  There are not that many pilots who are IFR rated.  Of those that are, many do not feel like risking their lives chasing an ELT in IFR at night. 

There are many that feel that waiting until morning or for the weather to clear is the wisest option, unless we know for a fact there is an airplane missing or down.
No one has a right to judge a pilot for not taking a mission when they feel it is unsafe.   When you get ELT's in the middle of the night, many pilots may have had something to drink the night before and cant fly, or they may be so tired its dangerous for them to fly.  So lets not be so quick to judge why its hard to find pilots at 2:00 a.m. for an ELT mission.

As far as last weekend goes, the Hemet airplane was on an A-3 mission and was being flown by a crew that included some of the Southern California IC's that were trying to run the mission you are talking about.   Our plane was on a mission all weekend.  It is used not only by our squadron, but by many other members from other squadrons as well. 

Lets put the shoe on the other foot, calguy why did'nt you fly that mission last night?   If you are a pilot, then what was your excuse.  If not, who are you to judge those that have to take the risk and the responsiblility.

[calguy]

I will be a judge, because I am not a mission pilot, but I am a pilot.  That was last night, but what about the many weekend and weekday missions in VFR when they cannot find an aircraft?  It still seems odd that most missions are run by the same 2 or 3 ICs.  (2 ICs did almost 50% of all CA missions)
Most UDF teams are the same 3 or 4 people.
Most Aircraft are the same 2 aircraft and crews...Fullerton & Palm Springs.
My basis is closing traffic and awards.
But these guys get all the blame for hogging the missions. 

How did you know that last nights mission was not a crashed airplane?
Julian is where the VOR is, weather was "bad", it is in the hills, sounds like a receipe for a crash to me? 

One in 25 missions end up at an actual crash location (AFRCC Stats).  90 percent of all fire and burglar alarms are false.  Should the police and fire department wait till morning or good weather to respond.  Most chest pains are not heart attacks, should we wait till one goes into cardiac arrest to treat them?  If CAP is the first responder for ELT and missing air plane missions...respond like one, otherwise admit our folks are not up for the mission and give it to the Sheriff!  As a pilot, I would expect when I crash and my ELT goes off that one would respond quickly and professionally.  Remember what happened to the USCG in Florida after a boat sunk and they failed to respond to a MAYDAY call till morning?  That cost them millions!
California is on life support, only being held together by a few, professional members, and yet we have the nerve to criticize them for hogging the missions.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

I hate to pop your bubble calguy, but CAP is not a First Responder.   

Also, I am not criticizing anybody.  That seems to come from you and others who think like you.   I appreciate what these hardworking volunteers are doing.  However, I am getting tired of people getting this holier than thou attitude and saying because one members volunteer work is not as great as another members then that member or squadron or wing should be the subject of scorn.

We are all volunteers here.   We are not the Police or the Fire Dept.  We do not have to put our lives needlessly at risk for fear of a lawsuit.  As "volunteers" each man decides what he is able to give.   Do not say it is not good enough.  If you are not a Mission Pilot then, I respectfully say become one, then you can make the decision whether to fly in IFR at night or not.   Until then, your complaining about others not doing enough will fall on deaf ears here.

You are the one that started this whole thread with false information.  I would have expected an apology instead of more of the same.   This is my last word on this subject.

[Short Field]

CAWG has modified it's MOU with Nevada Wing so NVWG will cover all of the CAWG east of the top of the Sierras down to Barstow and over to Needles.  AZWG will cover all of CAWG's Imperial County and Riverside County from the Colorado River to an area near Desert Center.  In exchange, CAWG will lose 4 aircraft, 2 to AZ and 2 to NVWG.  .

I thought this thread was twofold - (1) MOUs changing to have NVWG & AZWG cover CAWG areas and (2) aircraft being transferred out of CAWG to NVWG & AZWG.

The NVWG & CAWG MOU just seems to allow NVWG to assist CAWG to cover areas when CAWG is unable and NVWG has assets in close proximity.  Haven't seen the AZWG MOU.  There has been nothing other than the original post that indicates aircraft are changing Wings.  Each Wing determines where they locate their aircraft.  Squadrons don't own the aircraft, they only manage the aircraft assigned to them for the Wing. 

So why has this become a thread that seems to be arguing for or against a particular squadron managing Wing assets?  What is the real agenda?

[Flying Pig]

Hemet is located in Riverside County.  Riverside County Sheriff has a SAR team and 5 helicopters that are always available.  Riverside Police has at least 3 helicopters, Corona PD has a helicopter. CAP isn't the first responder in Riverside County.  In Fresno County we as the Sheriff run any SAR mission in our county. We are asked by approach on occassion to go look at areas where aircraft may have fallen off radar without warning, or a motorist see an airplane "crash" while driving up Interstate 5. What they are seeing is a cropduster landing ona dirt road to reload.

As far as flying IFR at night for an ELT hunt?   ehhhhhh, thats pretty risky.  We fly with NVG's in my department and are till VERY cautious about getting up into the hills for anything other than known life and death.

[calguy]

Most of the firefighters in the US are volunteers, just like CAP.  And yes, we are first responders just like they are.  That is what our MOU with the OES states.  Otherwise the Sheriffs would be taking the missions.   And I do Fly IFR and last night was just a low cloud deck and winds aloft, not a real issue for a Cessna 182 or 206.  As far as moving aircraft, the old wing commander did talk about that and has been tabled like many things for the next commander to address.  As far as the Hemet aircraft, I can only find two A-1 mission flown last year.  I guess that explains the lack of input from your squadron.  I see on your web site that you average several missing airplane missions plus training missions a year.  When was the last one?   I don't recall.  Here is the truth...lets give up the SAR missions. We don't really have any HLS missions and just become a flying club.
That way if I crash, at least the sheriff will respond.  And lets give credit to the folks who pick up the slack for those E(mergecy) S(ervices) volunteers that do take their responsibilities seriously and let those that don't keep they opinions and complaints to themselves.

[PHall]

calguy, for the last time. We Are Not First Responders!

For an ELT search when there is NOT a missing aircraft AFRCC will not even begin a mission until there have been at least two satellite passes. This would be at least one hour minimum, more likely two.

Then AFRCC calls the Point of Contact for the CAP Wing they want to give the mission to.
The POC then tries to find a IC and the IC then puts the pages out for the UDF team and maybe a aircrew, just in case.
This eats up another hour at a minimum.

So, we're at 2 to 3 hours already and no one is in the field yet. Not much of a "First Responce", is it?

And don't forget that here in California, the Sheriff of each county is responsible for all search and rescue in their county.
We operate at the pleasure of the Sheriff of whichever county we're operating in.
They can say we'll handle it, have a nice day and that's it, we're done, at least in that county.

And there have been times in the past when CAP was not allowed to do any search activities in some counties when someone from CAP had PO'd the Sheriff's Department of that county.

[calguy]

Hemet is located in Riverside County.  Riverside County Sheriff has a SAR team and 5 helicopters that are always available.  Riverside Police has at least 3 helicopters, Corona PD has a helicopter. CAP isn't the first responder in Riverside County.  In Fresno County we as the Sheriff run any SAR mission in our county. We are asked by approach on occassion to go look at areas where aircraft may have fallen off radar without warning, or a motorist see an airplane "crash" while driving up Interstate 5. What they are seeing is a cropduster landing ona dirt road to reload.

As far as flying IFR at night for an ELT hunt?   ehhhhhh, thats pretty risky.  We fly with NVG's in my department and are till VERY cautious about getting up into the hills for anything other than known life and death.

The MOU with the OES for an ELT within a county give the county the option to accept the mission, run a joint mission with CAP or let CAP handle the mission.  The MOU requires CAP to start on the mission within 30 minutes, hence the 30 minute rule for WMAOs to find an IC.  In So Cal, more often than not the dozen plus ICs that are available 24/7 turn the mission down and the mission goes to one of the defult ICs on Wing staff.  In Central CA it goes to J.W. in SLO. Go figure!  OES does consider us as first responders.  Many sheriffs don't and elect to handle the missions on their own, like Fresno and many counties in the north.  And yes, CAP is the first responder for ELTs and aircraft missions in Riverside County.  I can't believe a SQCC w/an aircraft would know or understand that.  Maybe that is why our member don't know or care.  Why do you think CAP found the aircraft in the Cajon Pass last week instead of the Sheriff?  I was told that they let CAP handle the whole search.  And who ran the Fossett search in CA?  Yes...it was CAP, not the sheriff.  
Were lucky if you like the search biz in California.  Many wing never get called because the sheriff or state handle all missions and leaves CAP out.  Wonder why?

[calguy]

calguy, for the last time. We Are Not First Responders!

For an ELT search when there is NOT a missing aircraft AFRCC will not even begin a mission until there have been at least two satellite passes. This would be at least one hour minimum, more likely two.

Then AFRCC calls the Point of Contact for the CAP Wing they want to give the mission to.
The POC then tries to find a IC and the IC then puts the pages out for the UDF team and maybe a aircrew, just in case.
This eats up another hour at a minimum.

So, we're at 2 to 3 hours already and no one is in the field yet. Not much of a "First Responce", is it?

And don't forget that here in California, the Sheriff of each county is responsible for all search and rescue in their county.
We operate at the pleasure of the Sheriff of whichever county we're operating in.
They can say we'll handle it, have a nice day and that's it, we're done, at least in that county.

And there have been times in the past when CAP was not allowed to do any search activities in some counties when someone from CAP had PO'd the Sheriff's Department of that county.

Read the MOU, it is/was on the Wing web site.  Does that mean when an airplane drops off RADAR with an ELT and MAYDAY that we are not first responders?  What are we?  What are the sheriff's SAR teams.  The get toned out, find a leader and respond.  Hell...when a burglar alarm goes off in a house and the alarm company calls the residence and by the time the police get dispatched and arrive at a low priority, are they not first responders?
How many folks in aircraft crashes have died while waiting for CAP to ramp up? 
What is acceptable for a response time after notification?  3 hours?  6 hours?
Lets just admit it, we don't want to play with the big boys but don't take away our toys!

[PHall]

calguy, for the last time. We Are Not First Responders!

For an ELT search when there is NOT a missing aircraft AFRCC will not even begin a mission until there have been at least two satellite passes. This would be at least one hour minimum, more likely two.

Then AFRCC calls the Point of Contact for the CAP Wing they want to give the mission to.
The POC then tries to find a IC and the IC then puts the pages out for the UDF team and maybe a aircrew, just in case.
This eats up another hour at a minimum.

So, we're at 2 to 3 hours already and no one is in the field yet. Not much of a "First Responce", is it?

And don't forget that here in California, the Sheriff of each county is responsible for all search and rescue in their county.
We operate at the pleasure of the Sheriff of whichever county we're operating in.
They can say we'll handle it, have a nice day and that's it, we're done, at least in that county.

And there have been times in the past when CAP was not allowed to do any search activities in some counties when someone from CAP had PO'd the Sheriff's Department of that county.

Read the MOU, it is/was on the Wing web site.  Does that mean when an airplane drops off RADAR with an ELT and MAYDAY that we are not first responders?  What are we?  What are the sheriff's SAR teams.  The get toned out, find a leader and respond.  Hell...when a burglar alarm goes off in a house and the alarm company calls the residence and by the time the police get dispatched and arrive at a low priority, are they not first responders?
How many folks in aircraft crashes have died while waiting for CAP to ramp up? 
What is acceptable for a response time after notification?  3 hours?  6 hours?
Lets just admit it, we don't want to play with the big boys but don't take away our toys!

The MOU with California OES is nice, but, OES does not give us the mission, AFRCC does.

Your example of an aircraft dropping off the radar is totally different then my example.
You will notice that I said an ELT when there is NOT a missing aircraft.
An actual aircraft dropping off the radar would be responded to in an entirely different way.
And unless we just happen to have an aircraft up in the area at the time, it won't be us.

It will probably be a law enforcement agency aircraft since they are flying just about 24/7.

If the FAA decides there is a missing aircraft then they will notify AFRCC and the whole alerting process will begin.

You will notice that OES is nowhere in the loop here at all.

When AFRCC does activate a mission, then and only then does OES get involved.

And I don't know who wrote and/or approved the MOU with OES, but the 30 minute requirement is just not realistic for CAP.
The 129th Rescue Wing at Moffett can probably meet the 30 minute goal, but they have an alert aircraft and an alert crew standing by too.

[a2capt]

The real agenda? scuttlebutt from a certain source was posted. Seems it's bunk. Then it's being backed by these same facts, and I won't deny them, that a couple of IC's are responsible for most of the missions in southern California, etc.. and that 'these aircraft hardly ever fly', etc...

There's more than two sides to every story.

But as equal as that is fact, the fact being, take a look at how many first timers and what not respond to missions and then never do it again, particularly with regards to their locale and who's likely having been the IC.

Pretty interesting indicator that something is broken.

Go back and look at the same mission traffic and responses when others make the call.

Arguing facts? Get off the Couch and look at all of them. It's pretty eye opening.

[wingnut]

Nowhere does it say 30 minutes to have an aircrew in the Air, thats for an IC to respond to the WAMO, and take the Mission from the AFRCC.  I have been told by AFRCC that if they have an ELT in Texas it is up to the AFRCC to find an IC. We in California have 24/7 WAMOs they find an IC, We have a good IC system here

As for the same ICs doing missions YOUR CORRECT, these same guys bust their butts (Sorry Ron), and we all admire and respect them for what they do (Personality clashes aside). But with that said we are in a morale crisis that will continue for awhile. All of us are acutely aware of the number of false ELT activations here,  its crazy. We have had at least a dozen ELTs going off in US Military assets, and the sad thing the Military have sometimes refused to respond to Military ELTs going off at night (With our guys driving for hours to get there). Reality check here.  Our people are burned out, we need to recruit more pilots and DF personnel, but HEY I have yet to be reimbursed for missions from months ago. Another factor to consider is; Our Southern California has one of the largest number of pilots yet is having a problem recruiting actvive members why do they join and quit???

One more small detail, who in the heck is up at 2am watching the email alerting system. I want to go back to on call aircraft with phone alerts. Internet is great but if you start calling pilots and crew, Human reaction is not to refuse, it is more personal and more professional to call an on call alert crew. If a squadron can't pull call, switch with someone who can, if a squadron can't respond give them some options and if they still cannot respond "PULL THE PLANE"

Oh yes talk about CREW REST, if your a worker bee, spend 16 hours awake, you cannot respond to a 2am request to fly after  3 or 4 hours sleep.

[calguy]

Thanks...

Ever done WMAO duty?  Two things ring true...
Almost all the 24/7 ICs will turn the mission down
The others listed as N&W and Days turn it down during those periods.
Duarte, Wordsworth and Keilholtz was ALWAYS take the missions and our WMAO Coordinators has specifically told us NOT to call them first as to not further burn them out.  These other guys waste all of our time.

Broken? YES  Where is the leadership?

In another thread a good example was made and I will try it here.

Your flying from Crescent City (NoCal) to Imperial (SoCal) and leave at 8 a.m. for a 4 hour flight in the middle of December.  Your VFR flight plan call for a 4 hour flight to arrive at noon.  But wait...You crash!  Its 10 a.m.

Your ELT goes off but the first SARSAT pass won't go by again until 13:30.

The FAA does an ALNOT and doesn't complete it until 1 P.M.  They call the AFRCC a short time later.  No Sarsat hits, they try to call the CAWG WMAO at 13:30 but get an answering machine.  They leave a message.  Nearly 20 minutes later, the WMAO calls and takes the mission but the WMAO is on the freeway.  He waits till he gets home.  Now it 14:15.  The WMAO goes down the list and cannot find an IC...all the same excuses, can't do it, no answer, voice mail.  It is now past the deadline and you call on one of the default Wing staff ICs, it's Keilholtz...good thing.  Its now 15:00.   After the IC calls the AFRCC and gets briefed it is 15:15 The IC puts out one page, 20 minutes later a second request.  At 16:00 he calls the group alerting officers and ask them to locate an aircraft.  Why?  Because many of our folks are not on the paging system.  Its now 16:45 before they locate a crew...but it is dark and they can't get to the airport for two hours due to traffic and they will need one hour to preflight the aircraft. Now they won't fly over the mountains at night because it is unsafe.  Remember the CAWG message last week?  No penalties for not wanting to fly!  Now we have to wait till the next day to fly but a Pacific storm is coming in.  We will not be able to fly for the next few days.  You, your wife and children wait in the cold, wet airplane with multiple injuries for the non CAP first responders to get on the mission.  When they arrive two days later, they have all died from exposure.

If you crash, who is going to look for you?  Can you count on CAP?

We need to look at our mission and accept the mission and fix our problems or get out of the SAR biz.

It is only fair to those we have been entrusted to serve.

Think about it!

[Flying Pig]

By calguy...
How many folks in aircraft crashes have died while waiting for CAP to ramp up? 

Are there any stats for this?  We are a volunteer organization of people who have jobs, vacations, etc.  Im not sure how you plan to staff aircrews with people who are living within minutes of the airport sleeping in their flight suits?

Its a pretty good system CAP has.  There are always things that can be improved.  We have a SAR team with my department who takes probably 3-4 hours to get on scene and ready to go.  It can be an hour or more if one of our aircrews need to be called in. In most cases, we WILL NOT start a night time mountain search in the helicopter and thats with NVG's, a search light a FLIR and a very nice moving map system.   Guess what.  We wait until sunrise to start up in the bird.  Our Sheriff pilots have 25,000 15,000 and 2,000 hours respectively and a big majority of that is flying in the Sierras.  We dont fly SARs in storms either and our pilots are the final decision on whether they fly the mission no matter how much the IC wants us to go.  There are no penalties for a pilot who decides the mission is not safe or he is not comfortable flying it.  Do you think their should be penalties?  It isnt that there are no penalties for not wanting to fly, its there are no penalties for determining as the PIC that you are not going to fly.  There is a difference.

Are you involved in SAR outside of CAP at all?   I hate to take the the wind out of our sails but we dont blatantly risk our lives looking for people and Im sorry if you were under the impression that we did or were somehow required to.  We take risks of course.  Flying at treetop level in the Sierras is risky but I dont think Id call it dangerous.

It seems some people want CAP to be able to respond to searches like fighter pilots on alert.   Its a little extreme to throw the scenario of a mountain storm into the loop because thats not something we can control.  Im not exactly sure who you are comparing us to when you talk about our response times or our willingness to fly into the mountains on a search in IFR weather?

[Larry Mangum]

California is not alone in that only a handful of the rated IC do most of the missions,  IC's and other senior mission staff type are not immune for the 90 /10 rule in which only 10% of the people do the majority of the work.

[calguy]

Gee...our guys don't want to search during VFR on a weekend.  Listen to the pages?  First page, second page, third page.  The other night the weather was VFR over Julian, winds aloft at 10,000 were 25 knots.  The terrain over that area is to the east and west from sea level, rolling hills to Julian at 3000 feet to the VFR at 4000.  Hardly "mountain" flying.  
Searching requires risk.  I am sure the IC put folks out on the ground at 2 am.  That has risks.  Air ambulance fly at night, without NVG or FLIR in the mountains all the time.  OES expects CAP to find an IC within 30 minutes of the AFRCC giving the WMAO the mission.  Much of the time they cannot find an IC.  Why?  24/7  Just what does that mean?  24 % of the time I will take 7 % of those missions?  Thats 2 % of the time...thats about right!
After the 30 minutes, OES expects CAP to have identified which resources will be enroute.  They expect a UDF team to be on the road in 30 minutes after accepting an assignment.  Unreasonable?  Doable?  For aircrews, they expect them to be at the airport within one hour.  Is this not reasonable?  That is 2 hours after the AFRCC gives CAP the mission.  And you and most other pilots think this is not fair to our members.  
I know some of our folks can be on the road with 5 minutes of a page.  So we can do it, but we don't want to.  You hate those guys because they make many of us look bad.  The crash in Cajon Pass was located in less than 5 hours from when the guy crashed and a little over 3 hours from when CAP got the mission.  It was found by a CAP member from San Diego, about a two hour drive.  Can't be done??  Sure it can, but only if you want to.  These guys all work, have family but when they signed up for S&R they knew it would take a priority in their lives.  
Volunteer firefighters get up at all hours to help people for a number of non emergency reason.  But they still respond.
Excuses  Excuses Excuses.
Lets blame everyone else and make them look bad so we can keep our aircraft that we won't fly 90% of the time when requested.  
Lets move them to unit that will.  Our squadron has wanted one for years, have qualified crew members and they will drive 40 miles to get an aircraft that is just sitting there.  2 A-1 missions a year?  Move the airplane and let their folks drive 40 miles.
You are putting your needs before the organizational needs.
Seems like a waste of money for Fresno to buy NVG, FLIR, maps and the like and not fly at night.  I bet when they wrote the request that they used flying SAR at night in the mountains as  one of their justifications.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Although I have stated I will make no further comments regarding this thread, I just realized something that needs to be said.   I would like to say to "calguy", I believe I know who you are (Are your Initials  S T ? ) and why you have this agenda.  You have put in a lot of hours on SAR missions and you probably believe that the majority of us are not supporting you.  Actually, most people acknowledge the work that you and those other two you keep referring to are doing.   What riles most of us is that you expect CAP to be something it cannot ever be as a volunteer organization, and you constantly belittle the efforts of other volunteers who do not have the time or the resources available to do what you and those other few dedicated people are able to do.

There are reasons why some squadrons are able to take more missions than others.   Some squadrons are lucky enough to have qualified retired Mission Pilots available.  Some squadrons are in more affluent areas and their members are more able to foot the large expenses associated with financing these mission while waiting for months to be repaid.  Some squadrons have better df units (Beckers).  There are numerous reasons and differences among squadrons.

Some members, such as myself,  have family problems .  My wife has terminal lung cancer and is on hospice care at home.  This limits the amount of time and finances I can put into going out on these missions.  Before I can go on a mission I have to find someone to stay with my wife.  In spite of this, I have flown a Sarex and two A-1 missions as observer; and as UDF team member have  found and disabled five ELT's since she has been sick.  Of those only two were ever posted showing my efforts.  I do this in addition to my responsibilities as Squadron Commander because I love CAP, my Squadron and our Mission.   However, to some, this is not enough, to them I can only say, "sorry you feel that way".

We all would like to be able to get to the plane and take off within a half an hour.  However, life gets in the way and it cannot always be done.    I ask that members of my squadron do as much as they can, I do not ask them to bankrupt themselves, lose their jobs, or risk their lives needlessly.   So far I am happy with the effort put forth by my squadron members.   I am proud of them and I will not stand by and have them insulted without response.    Hopefully this will be the last comment you hear from me on this subject. (But you never know, something else may come up).

Before I could post this something else came up.  The plane that was found in the Cajon pass was not just stumbled upon by someone from San Diego.   A ground team leader from another squadron along with my DCC were on the way to Nellis AFB with some of my cadets when they picked up the ELT signal in the Cajon Pass.   It was reported but they were not assigned to the mission.  There were CAP resources right there, but someone had to come from San Diego, why was that?

[Flying Pig]

 Air ambulance fly at night, without NVG or FLIR in the mountains all the time.

Seems like a waste of money for Fresno to buy NVG, FLIR, maps and the like and not fly at night.  I bet when they wrote the request that they used flying SAR at night in the mountains as  one of their justifications.

Really?  Who?   The CHP will not fly into the mountains at all after dark and they are EMS.  Im curious who else does?  Skylife doesnt fly into the mountains at night.  I never said we didnt fly at night.  We fly 365 days per year until at least midnight.

In fact we are the only law enforcement agency in the central valley that will fly into the Sierras after dark.  We have flown into the mountains at night on SAR for extreme circumstances and have rescued several people from mountain tops and stranded boaters on lakes that are over 8000 msl.  But we weigh the risks.  Our primary missions are law enforcement and SAR and they have located many people over the years.  But keep in mind not all SAR is done in the mountains.  Making accusations about my agency falsifying requests for equipment is a little out of line.

[calguy]

It was reported but they were not assigned to the mission.  There were CAP resources right there, but someone had to come from San Diego, why was that?

Maybe because they couldn't find it.

[calguy]

Really?  Who?

Mercy Air for one flies at night in the mountains.  Sadly, they crashed one in the Cajon pass at night as well as Baker at night.  Sure, its risky business, but so is responding to any incident, in the air or on the ground.

Police can go into a building with a hostage or wait outside.  Firefighters can fight fire from outside or can go inside.  Choices?  Risks?  During the Fossett search we had crews flying into Bishop at night.  Was that a bad choice?  If we didn't fly at night, we wouldn't  have had crews at Bishop until noon.  Our crews could have only flown for an hour before they had to fly back home before dark.  Waste of time?  The only reason most people stayed at Bishop was because of the free lodging that the IC was able to get.  Otherwise, it could have been another Big Bear fatality.

[RiverAux]

I always enjoy watching people argue over whether CAP members are "First Responders".  It is such a generic term and has different definitions depending on who is using it and in what context that it is in an argument that is impossible to win no matter which side you're on in any particular spat. 

[PHall]

Really?  Who?

Mercy Air for one flies at night in the mountains.  Sadly, they crashed one in the Cajon pass at night as well as Baker at night.  Sure, its risky business, but so is responding to any incident, in the air or on the ground.

Yeah, they crashed flying VFR through Cajon Pass in IFR conditions returning to their base in Victorville.
They were "scud running" just like the guy in the PA-28 that just crashed last week.
If they had a patient on-board when they crashed there would have been a hue and cry for their licence to be pulled because they endangered their patients.

[flynd94]

Calguy,

Let me start off with who the H#LL are you.  I am an IC in CAWG, Keith Stason is the name.  I handle my fair share of missions.  I have done 9 missions as an IC this year alone.  I avg 25 missions a year the last 2 years.  I feel I do my share.  I also go out and, fly/play UDF.   I know more about the IC system in CAWG than you do and, those who take the majority of the mission's can say NO.  Also, how many of the IC's have jobs?  I know I can't run a mission when I am at work.  Its pretty hard when I am in my cockpit at FL370 and, my pax would probably prefer I concentrated on flying the aircraft I was in.

Yes, the list sucks but, you must remember that we are all volunteers.  We have lives outside of CAP.  I refuse missions all the time.  Maybe I am tired, had other plans.  Does this make me wrong, no it makes me a member of a volunteer organization.  I give enough of my time to CAP and, would like to have a life outside of it.

You need to get off your soap box of bashing CAWG and our leadership.  No other wing in CAP handles the amount of missions we do.  Have you ever looked at the amount of aircraft/pilots (GA) located in CA.  Its mind blowing, yes it would be great to have more members but, we don't.  We do a [darn] good job with what we have.

Time for you to become part of the solution or shut up and move on.  Yes, we have a MOU with surrounding states to assist in SAR efforts.  I have talked with our (CAWG) wing staff (CC, CV) about us losing airframes.  They laughed.  It ain't gonna happen.

Go back under the rock you crawled out from under.

Keith Stason, Capt, CAP
IC, MP, GTL  and a whole bunch more
I