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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Airborne Photographer Requirements
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,141

« on: June 09, 2018, 03:37:15 PM »

At the end of the AP SQTR Worksheet is a place to enter the "two" actual exercises. Can these be two different targets on one sortie? I cannot find where its required to be separate sorties. Its kind of silly to land, stop the engine and start a new sortie number just to get the two exercises entered. But I've seen it done. Am I missing something in the regs?
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 377
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2018, 04:19:27 PM »

Absent any specific direction in regs, I'd ask your skills evaluator. If you are the SE, you should be  able to use your discretion and judgment. Just my 2 cents.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,141

« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2018, 05:20:53 PM »

Absent any specific direction in regs, I'd ask your skills evaluator. If you are the SE, you should be  able to use your discretion and judgment. Just my 2 cents.

Yep. Thats me, and thats the plan.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,561

« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2018, 06:09:31 PM »

At the end of the AP SQTR Worksheet is a place to enter the "two" actual exercises. Can these be two different targets on one sortie?

No - it's required they be two separate and distinct sorties.

They be the same mission, but not the same sortie.

Doing an engine stop and taking off again misses several key pieces of a sortie, not
the least of which is the debriefing and processing the photos, something sorely lacking
and many time a full fail during evals.

One of the purposes of two sorties is to get the AP and aircrew reps on the full end-to-end
of missions.  It's not a "waste" it's the point.

CAPR 60-3, Page 25
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_003_075A4369FBA8E.pdf

"c. Finally, after completing familiarization and preparatory training, supervised trainees
must complete advanced training and participate satisfactorily in two missions before a CAPF
101 is approved and a member is considered “Qualified.” Advanced training covers the
remainder of the tasks required for specialty qualification. On actual missions, it is expected that
these tasks could be accomplished by the trainee's supervisor or other fully trained members if
they became critical. These tasks do not have to be completed in a mission setting though. It is
acceptable for these tasks to be accomplished with similar familiarization and preparatory tasks
during routine unit training or in a formal school like the National Emergency Services
Academy. Prior approval and additional risk mitigation measures will be required by the
mission approval authority in order for these personnel to participate in a mission. Because all
trainees are properly supervised at all times, trainees are allowed to learn these "on the job."
These two “missions” do not have to be on different mission numbers, be AFAMs, or be
completed after all other advanced training is complete, but personnel must have completed all
familiarization and preparatory training in order to receive credit for these sorties. These sorties
must be complete sorties and/or operating periods where the member participates in all aspects of
their assigned mission specialty.
It is possible to participate in more than one specialty on a
given mission or day. "


This is definitely  in the top 5 of the "qualification DEE-NIED top 10".
An ESO in the approval chain looks up the mission and see only one sortie for two sign-offs.
That's also an invitation for some refresher training for the SET.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 06:18:48 PM by Eclipse » Logged


etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,141

« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2018, 06:32:25 PM »

Thanks for the citation I missed.  Its the Regs ... so be it. 

I could argue that after the flight I would still be debriefing the AP trainee on each target separately, which would be a given. And they would be uploading each target's images separately naturally.

 Its the Regs though ... and its how we will do it. Stop the plane, come inside and complete the assigned sortie. Then go back out and do another target, from scratch.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 670

« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 01:18:04 AM »

Don't forget, SET stands for Skills Elevator Trainer, completing the entire sortie process allows for the trainee to be fully evaluated and be provided areas for improvement on the next sortie. You can't do that if you combine both sorties into one.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,337
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 02:58:18 AM »

Don't forget, SET stands for Skills Elevator Evaluator Trainer, completing the entire sortie process allows for the trainee to be fully evaluated and be provided areas for improvement on the next sortie. You can't do that if you combine both sorties into one.

FTFY!
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 670

« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2018, 10:46:47 PM »

FTFY!

Ack! Stupid auto correct. Thanks for the assist!

Although being an elevator trainer sounds kinda fun too.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,337
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 01:07:37 AM »

FTFY!

Ack! Stupid auto correct. Thanks for the assist!

Although being an elevator trainer sounds kinda fun too.

It, like aviation, has its ups and downs.  >:D
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,056
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 02:33:45 AM »

FTFY!

Ack! Stupid auto correct. Thanks for the assist!

Although being an elevator trainer sounds kinda fun too.

It, like aviation, has its ups and downs.  >:D

Owwww, Sir. That one really gave me a lift when I needed one; you really pushed my buttons with that.

BTW, I'd love to find an opening for such a job, before it quickly closes.

Cheers
Spam


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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 618

« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 10:49:44 PM »

Don't forget, SET stands for Skills Elevator Trainer, completing the entire sortie process allows for the trainee to be fully evaluated and be provided areas for improvement on the next sortie. You can't do that if you combine both sorties into one.

I believe the thread is trapped... TRAPPED on an Elevator. 
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,337
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2018, 10:52:57 PM »

St00pid!
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
apguy
Newbie

Posts: 2

« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2018, 02:45:57 PM »

I could argue that after the flight I would still be debriefing the AP trainee on each target separately, which would be a given. And they would be uploading each target's images separately naturally.

 Its the Regs though ... and its how we will do it. Stop the plane, come inside and complete the assigned sortie. Then go back out and do another target, from scratch.

Sigh...

Coming inside is not required.  You can debrief / brief in the plane with or without the engine shut down (I recommend saving hobbs time, but your pilot's call).  Once you debrief it, then brief the next sortie, you have been through all the steps and they are two distinct sortie cycles.  Uploading pictures is not a sortie step, it is post sortie work.  Remember that you only get evaluated once...you do a task and it's good the first time, then you're good.  I, as the SET, do not need to see you do another one, I don't evaluate you again on the second sortie.  All I have to see in the second sortie is the actual sortie plus anything that needs to be repeated at a higher standard.

Now, I don't recommend it - you miss the opportunity to get feedback and to improve on your previous performance.  That's practice and it makes you better. 

Argue what you like, but out and back flights as two sorties are done all the time and they are usually done in order to be efficient with our training funds.

Doing an engine stop and taking off again misses several key pieces of a sortie, not the least of which is the debriefing and processing the photos, something sorely lacking and many time a full fail during evals.

But you agree they ARE two distinct sorties. 
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,561

« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2018, 03:15:19 PM »

Doing an engine stop and taking off again misses several key pieces of a sortie, not the least of which is the debriefing and processing the photos, something sorely lacking and many time a full fail during evals.

But you agree they ARE two distinct sorties.

Yes.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,141

« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2018, 08:59:39 PM »

We have a nice airport restaurant just 15 minutes away where you can park the plane literally 50 feet from the door. Its great for missions like this. Halfway between is a steam power plant and also nearby a hydro plant. First sortie shoots the power plant. Look at the files and evaluate them over wings or a burger. With laptop in tow could even upload if desired while eating dessert.

See what could be done better and plan for the hydro plant on the return sortie.

Make these things fun for the Mission crew. Nourishment and hydration is important between sorties.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 09:05:37 PM by etodd » Logged
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Airborne Photographer Requirements
 


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