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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Directing people to parking spaces/loading zones, no longer allowed?
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Author Topic: Directing people to parking spaces/loading zones, no longer allowed?  (Read 1785 times)
Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,278
Unit: Worry

« on: June 08, 2018, 06:42:45 PM »

I've often thought that CAP was going to ORM itself out of a job, and I'm seeing that come to fruition more and more every day.

The silliness I've seen inflicted today is that directing people in vehicles on where to park is no longer an allowed activity for cadets or senior members.

It doesn't matter if the host location has insurance coverage that specifically includes the volunteers.

It doesn't matter if the squadron purchases a separate event insurance coverage certificate.

We can't do it anymore.

At least this is what I've been told. A formal policy with justification isn't being written. Activities are simply being denied.

---

Can someone cite for me any regulation, statute, supplement, OI or court case that makes this new unwritten and unjustified (to members) policy make sense?

Does this mean CAP's effectiveness in managing PODs will necessitate a separate group working for us when directing traffic through the distribution lanes is needed?
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,131
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2018, 08:08:20 PM »


Hi Pattern.

Is this in reference (for example) to a denial of permission to allow units to direct traffic and park cars at a (CAP or non CAP) event? Either for fund raising or not? For example: at the local county Renaissance Faire, Cadet Airman Bagodounts directs a pickup straight into a Ferrari, and the question is if CAP is liable?

To me, it sounds as if you're asking CAP Talk members to second guess your own Wing legal officers, and direction from your own chain of command based on their advice. If that's the case, then I would have to say that while we don't have a specific prohibition against such activities, the advice from members all across the US would not be as worthwhile as a legal officer who is a member of the bar in your state, who is familiar with statutes in your state, and who is familiar with precedents in your state.

In short, my unit in Georgia may (MAY - I speak hypothetically here) be legally protected (based on Georgia statute and precedent) from tort action against CAP in the case of an incident, while your state may be different. Could that be the source of the problem for you? If that's so, I'd recommend that an internal (to your Wing) discussion take place.  Good luck.

V/r
Spam, non-Esquire (lol)
(not a lawyer in any sense of that word)


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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2018, 08:14:37 PM »

The assumption is competent wing legal officers.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,471

« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2018, 09:21:06 PM »

Quote
Activities are simply being denied.

So I guess a question of mine would be: why is your Wing HQ involved in determining what activities you conduct when it's not an HAA event? Do you have a Wing policy on that?

Quote
We can't do it anymore.

At least this is what I've been told. A formal policy with justification isn't being written. Activities are simply being denied.

Fact check that one before going full Chicken Little here. That news hasn't made it down into the weeds. And as you said, no formal policy from NHQ on the matter; therefore, it isn't a 'thing.'
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,278
Unit: Worry

« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2018, 09:52:54 PM »

Quote
Activities are simply being denied.

So I guess a question of mine would be: why is your Wing HQ involved in determining what activities you conduct when it's not an HAA event? Do you have a Wing policy on that?

Like all the new policies, an unwritten one here. Our wing legal officer has full preemption over all unit activities outside of regular squadron meetings.

Quote
Quote
We can't do it anymore.

At least this is what I've been told. A formal policy with justification isn't being written. Activities are simply being denied.

Fact check that one before going full Chicken Little here. That news hasn't made it down into the weeds. And as you said, no formal policy from NHQ on the matter; therefore, it isn't a 'thing.'

I did fact check it. This is the new unofficial policy in our wing.

Unfortunately this means that among other things, our squadron won't be participating in events they've participated in for over 10 years. It also has implications for our dwindling role in ES.

Hence why I posted here. I'm looking for anything written one way or another that I can use to fight back against what I believe to be bad policies. If I have examples of other wings, units, and regions allowing it, that gives me ammunition to use to provide a counter to these unwritten policies.

If I have everyone on here tell me that under no circumstances should CAP ever be near a car under the power of a non-CAP member, then that tells me that our wing is just getting with the times and we have yet another activity we cannot do.
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CAPLTC
Forum Regular

Posts: 151
Unit: MER

« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2018, 10:08:22 PM »

Cite policy.

I've often thought that CAP was going to ORM itself out of a job, and I'm seeing that come to fruition more and more every day.

The silliness I've seen inflicted today is that directing people in vehicles on where to park is no longer an allowed activity for cadets or senior members.

It doesn't matter if the host location has insurance coverage that specifically includes the volunteers.

It doesn't matter if the squadron purchases a separate event insurance coverage certificate.

We can't do it anymore.

At least this is what I've been told. A formal policy with justification isn't being written. Activities are simply being denied.

---

Can someone cite for me any regulation, statute, supplement, OI or court case that makes this new unwritten and unjustified (to members) policy make sense?

Does this mean CAP's effectiveness in managing PODs will necessitate a separate group working for us when directing traffic through the distribution lanes is needed?
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 828
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2018, 10:21:36 PM »

The assumption is competent wing legal officers.

Not at all. They have to be lawyers, they have to be appointed as legal officers. Competency is not a requirement and isn’t an issue unless and until they do something incompetent. Meanwhile, they are the only CAP members specifically appointed by CAP and permitted by statute to provide legal advice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,099

« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2018, 10:40:44 PM »

Unofficial policies aren't.

Also, a wing JA has zero authority over anything or anyone.

My wing has a formal approval process for all activities outside normal meetings or other things
explicitly allowed withing regs.  If anything is denied, it's a CC doing the denying, not a JA
(though of course they may be consulted).

If a JA is issuing directives or saying "no", absent officially delegate authority, he's got zero
weight of anything.

Sounds like CC's need to start making phone direct phone calls.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,260

« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2018, 11:47:11 PM »

Quote
Activities are simply being denied.

So I guess a question of mine would be: why is your Wing HQ involved in determining what activities you conduct when it's not an HAA event? Do you have a Wing policy on that?

Like all the new policies, an unwritten one here. Our wing legal officer has full preemption over all unit activities outside of regular squadron meetings.

Quote
Quote
We can't do it anymore.

At least this is what I've been told. A formal policy with justification isn't being written. Activities are simply being denied.

Fact check that one before going full Chicken Little here. That news hasn't made it down into the weeds. And as you said, no formal policy from NHQ on the matter; therefore, it isn't a 'thing.'

I did fact check it. This is the new unofficial policy in our wing.

Unfortunately this means that among other things, our squadron won't be participating in events they've participated in for over 10 years. It also has implications for our dwindling role in ES.

Hence why I posted here. I'm looking for anything written one way or another that I can use to fight back against what I believe to be bad policies. If I have examples of other wings, units, and regions allowing it, that gives me ammunition to use to provide a counter to these unwritten policies.

If I have everyone on here tell me that under no circumstances should CAP ever be near a car under the power of a non-CAP member, then that tells me that our wing is just getting with the times and we have yet another activity we cannot do.

What the heck is an "unofficial policy"? It's either an official, published policy or it isn't.
And Legal Officers, unless they're a Commander, have ZERO Command Authority. They ADVISE the Commander and that's it.
Now, what the Commander does with that advice is a whole another story.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,131
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2018, 12:02:59 AM »


My advice would be to ignore "unofficial policy" in every instance, and proceed in accordance with the three missions of record, via the approved national regulations and manuals, as modified only by (nationally approved) Region and Wing Supplements.  If none of those prohibits you from parking cars or so forth, and if a careful review of your activity doesn't require Wing (Commander, not JA) approval per the regs (for specifics like fund raising, or high adventure activities both of which clearly require preapproval per the regs) then, have at it.

If your JA has a solid case as to why you should not be doing something, he/she needs to put that into a recommendation to the Wing/CC - not you - and at that level it would be codified into a Wing-specific Supplement for review and approval up the chain, if and when it would then become effective.

I've served as a staff officer at many levels, and have commanded at many levels, and the two lines of responsibility should be clear (line commanders don't take orders from staff guys but commanders are foolish NOT to consult staff experts). Legal officers fill a vital role; I've consulted ours several times on serious issues, but would never mistake his expertise for command authority. If you catch fire from someone, I'd first call them to mind their own business (if they were staff officers and I were a line officer) and if they were in my chain and I disagreed, I'd invite them to cite their regulatory grounds for shutting down your program. The "policy" they need to point to needs to be resident in approved national pubs, or needs to be clearly resident in APPROVED supplements publicly posted on the NHQ website (i.e. not unpublished, not "on the Wing web site", not "verbal orders from last years commanders call", and not "has been Wing policy for years").

Thanks for your initiative on behalf of our internal and external customers.

V/r
Spam

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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,471

« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2018, 10:30:08 AM »

Quote
Activities are simply being denied.

So I guess a question of mine would be: why is your Wing HQ involved in determining what activities you conduct when it's not an HAA event? Do you have a Wing policy on that?

Like all the new policies, an unwritten one here. Our wing legal officer has full preemption over all unit activities outside of regular squadron meetings.

Quote
Quote
We can't do it anymore.

At least this is what I've been told. A formal policy with justification isn't being written. Activities are simply being denied.

Fact check that one before going full Chicken Little here. That news hasn't made it down into the weeds. And as you said, no formal policy from NHQ on the matter; therefore, it isn't a 'thing.'

I did fact check it. This is the new unofficial policy in our wing.

Take it up the chain and request an answer/clarification It may be that your Wing Commander isn't even aware that this is what was passed down.


Quote
Unfortunately this means that among other things, our squadron won't be participating in events they've participated in for over 10 years. It also has implications for our dwindling role in ES.

Hence why I posted here. I'm looking for anything written one way or another that I can use to fight back against what I believe to be bad policies. If I have examples of other wings, units, and regions allowing it, that gives me ammunition to use to provide a counter to these unwritten policies.

If I have everyone on here tell me that under no circumstances should CAP ever be near a car under the power of a non-CAP member, then that tells me that our wing is just getting with the times and we have yet another activity we cannot do.

Don't use a web forum as 'ammunition.' That won't hold up in your chain of command. What they say goes.

Now, that said, it's been a practice nationwide for units to perform various parking details as fundraisers, or air show assistance, etc...and there is no such official policy from NHQ addressing it either way. So if your Wing elects to have a directive that says "Not in our Wing," then they're in the minority on it (but within their right and authority---if approved; see Spam's post for further guidance).


This sounds like a lot of bad scuttlebutt.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,099

« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2018, 05:59:44 PM »

Unfortunately this means that among other things, our squadron won't be participating in events they've participated in for over 10 years..

If the only role you had at a given activity was parking cars, then arguably it was inappropriate for you to be participating anyway.
There are a lot of legitimate arguments against having members, especially cadets perform this task, even though it is
pretty much ubiquitous across CAP summers.

Did your unit traditionally have the activity POC sign a CAP "hold-harmless"?  All it takes is one grandpa hitting the gas instead of the brake
in a direction you pointed to make a bad day for everyone.

Instead of complaining about what you can't do, find something else you can, and let the Rotary park the cars.

It also has implications for our dwindling role in ES

Unless I missed an updated recently "parking cars" is not a part of CAP's ES capabilities.
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,684

« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2018, 07:04:24 PM »

It can be argued that parking cars is akin to marshaling aircraft. The same problem-a grandpa driver hitting the gas, there could be a grandpa pilot disregarding instructions from a marshaler-which is in their discretion-and hitting something or someone.

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Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,278
Unit: Worry

« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2018, 10:53:17 PM »


It also has implications for our dwindling role in ES

Unless I missed an updated recently "parking cars" is not a part of CAP's ES capabilities.

Are you familiar with Points of Distribution?
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wingnut55
Seasoned Member

Posts: 355

« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2018, 07:58:39 AM »

Thank God for that, as a Cadet Group Commander in 1972, I refused to be cheap slave labor nor any of my cadets at the time, we did not get paid and we were made fools of by
local youths, further more I had more important things for the cadets to do, ES, Radio etc...

I still feel that way, never thought about the old codger stepping on the gas and not the brakes, (That Never Happens).

Mr B
AOBD/IC3/ COMMAND MASTER OBSERVER
OWNER OF AN OLD TRICHAMP
MITCHELL 1971/ SOLO CADET 1972
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,099

« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2018, 10:06:55 AM »


It also has implications for our dwindling role in ES

Unless I missed an updated recently "parking cars" is not a part of CAP's ES capabilities.

Are you familiar with Points of Distribution?

Very. Point?
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EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,881

« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2018, 11:33:29 AM »

With proper training and supervision, there is very little danger in parking lot operations. Don't stand in the road, and never stand in front of the car being parked. If grandpa hits the gas instead of the brakes, he'll hit something other than you.

My former squadron has been doing parking details for as long as anyone can remember. Zero injures, and tens of thousands of dollars in the bank.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2018, 03:58:53 PM »

With proper training and supervision, there is very little danger in parking lot operations. Don't stand in the road, and never stand in front of the car being parked. If grandpa hits the gas instead of the brakes, he'll hit something other than you.

My former squadron has been doing parking details for as long as anyone can remember. Zero injures, and tens of thousands of dollars in the bank.
My first time as a parking attendant was in the early 70s as a cadet, and it got me a pit pass to the Grand Prix (that was the event). Done many dozens of events since, road races - air races - fairs - athletic events , and always safely and always a great experience.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 04:58:51 PM by OldGuy » Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,099

« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2018, 04:05:32 PM »

My first time as a parking attendant was in the early 70s as a cadet, and it got me a pot pass to the Grand Prix (that was the event).

Was that the area behind the bleachers just out of eye-shot of security?
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2018, 04:59:12 PM »

My first time as a parking attendant was in the early 70s as a cadet, and it got me a pot pass to the Grand Prix (that was the event).

Was that the area behind the bleachers just out of eye-shot of security?
Shhhhh, don't ask, I won't tell!
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J2H
Seasoned Member

Posts: 200
Unit: MER-MD-031

« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2018, 06:39:00 PM »

deleted
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SSgt Jeffrey Hughes, Squadron NCO
Glenn L. Martin Composite Squadron MD-031
#217169
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,425
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2018, 03:00:59 AM »

And this one's done, too.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Directing people to parking spaces/loading zones, no longer allowed?
 


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