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francisderosa16
Recruit

Posts: 40

« on: June 06, 2018, 06:03:05 PM »

Hello,
Will CAP permit wearing the Blue Beret with the ABUs after Blue Beret Encampment, or is it just during Blue Beret Encampment? The reason I ask this is because of the Uniform Change letter doesn't seem clear to me and also the USAF Security Forces wear a Navy Blue, Blue Beret very similar to the CAP Blue Beret.

V/R
Cadet Airman
Francis DeRosa
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Levi Lockling
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: AZ-085

« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 06:06:53 PM »

Verboten as of this moment. You can only wear it with ABUs during National Blue Beret(Which is an NCSA, not an encampment), and with BDU/BBDU uniforms elsewhere.

Until such a time as they change it, you'll need to get BDUs to wear the beret after NBB. That's IF they change it. Anything other than the change letter at this point is speculation and RUMINT.

EDIT: Added clarity

« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 08:31:05 PM by Levi Lockling » Logged
1stLt Levi H. Lockling
SrA, USAF, 1A851J, 41ECS
Charlie flight, NBB 2013
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,411

« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2018, 10:03:00 AM »

And keep in mind that the Wing or Region has to have an approved supplement to CAPM 39-1 authorizing wear outside of the NBB activity.

Really, if you're at an activity, and everyone else is in a patrol cap, you should be in a patrol cap.
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Airplane girl
Member

Posts: 70

« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2018, 10:48:42 AM »

Sir, I know that CAPM 39-1 is really confusingly worded when it comes to this, but people who have attended NBB are not required to have a wing supplement to wear the beret. Here is the direct quote from CAPM 39-1. A wing supplement is only required if they have not attended NBB.

“ Navy blue. May be worn by National Blue Beret graduates or by other members whenspecifically authorized by wing or region supplement or additional NHQ directive. May only be worn with the BDU or Blue Field Uniform. Position headband straight across the forehead, one inch above the eyebrows. Drape the top over the right ear and the stiffener. Adjust ribbon for comfort, tie in a knot, and tuck inside or cut-off. Appropriate flight cap device will be worn unless worn due to Blue Beret attendance, in which case the member will wear the Blue Beret, beret device.”

Although I do agree, if you’re attending a wing activity or something like that, sometimes it is best to just wear a Patrol cap.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 10:57:29 AM by Airplane girl » Logged
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,560
Unit: Classified

« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2018, 12:19:01 PM »

Sir, I know that CAPM 39-1 is really confusingly worded when it comes to this, but people who have attended NBB are not required to have a wing supplement to wear the beret. Here is the direct quote from CAPM 39-1. A wing supplement is only required if they have not attended NBB.

“ Navy blue. May be worn by National Blue Beret graduates or by other members whenspecifically authorized by wing or region supplement or additional NHQ directive. May only be worn with the BDU or Blue Field Uniform. Position headband straight across the forehead, one inch above the eyebrows. Drape the top over the right ear and the stiffener. Adjust ribbon for comfort, tie in a knot, and tuck inside or cut-off. Appropriate flight cap device will be worn unless worn due to Blue Beret attendance, in which case the member will wear the Blue Beret, beret device.”

Although I do agree, if you’re attending a wing activity or something like that, sometimes it is best to just wear a Patrol cap.

Cadet the Blue Beret is not authorized for ABUs and CC's and activity directors have the final say on uniforns for their AOR.
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Airplane girl
Member

Posts: 70

« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2018, 01:14:06 PM »

I’m aware that it is not authorized in ABUs, I just wanted to make it clear that it’s not necessary to have a wing supplement to wear the blue beret with BDUs at Squadron meetings if someone has attended NBB
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jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,093

« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2018, 01:52:09 PM »

Hello,
Will CAP permit wearing the Blue Beret with the ABUs after Blue Beret Encampment, or is it just during Blue Beret Encampment? The reason I ask this is because of the Uniform Change letter doesn't seem clear to me and also the USAF Security Forces wear a Navy Blue, Blue Beret very similar to the CAP Blue Beret.

V/R
Cadet Airman
Francis DeRosa

First, congratulations on being accepted to attend NBB this year.

Next, as of right now, you may only wear the beret at NBB if you elect to wear ABUs. If you elect to wear BDUs during the transition phase you may wear the beret with that uniform outside of NBB; no further supplement/approval is required, though local commanders and activity directors can restrict its wear.

Lastly, if you do elect to wear the beret with the BDUs outside of NBB, be aware that there are many berets out there watching you and your actions. We are a tight knit family and will not tolerate those who bring discredit to the uniform or the beret (or more specifically the St. Albans Cross).

And again, congratulations; I look forward to working with you and all the other participants.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
J2H
Seasoned Member

Posts: 200
Unit: MER-MD-031

« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2018, 03:08:24 PM »

Security Forces is authorized to wear berets with ABUs because berets are authorized for AD members to wear with ABUs.
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SSgt Jeffrey Hughes, Squadron NCO
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abdsp51
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Posts: 2,560
Unit: Classified

« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2018, 03:19:06 PM »

Security Forces is authorized to wear berets with ABUs because berets are authorized for AD members to wear with ABUs.

And how is that pertinent to the topic?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2018, 03:48:55 PM »

More importantly, what about OCPs?!
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shuman14
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Posts: 961
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2018, 05:05:37 PM »

More importantly, what about OCPs?!

 ;D
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Joseph J. Clune
Major (Promotable), Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689

« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2018, 11:59:53 PM »

be aware that there are many berets out there watching you and your actions.

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit creepy there will be a hat watching his every move?

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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,411

« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2018, 09:30:03 PM »

Sir, I know that CAPM 39-1 is really confusingly worded when it comes to this, but people who have attended NBB are not required to have a wing supplement to wear the beret. Here is the direct quote from CAPM 39-1. A wing supplement is only required if they have not attended NBB.

“ Navy blue. May be worn by National Blue Beret graduates or by other members whenspecifically authorized by wing or region supplement or additional NHQ directive. May only be worn with the BDU or Blue Field Uniform. Position headband straight across the forehead, one inch above the eyebrows. Drape the top over the right ear and the stiffener. Adjust ribbon for comfort, tie in a knot, and tuck inside or cut-off. Appropriate flight cap device will be worn unless worn due to Blue Beret attendance, in which case the member will wear the Blue Beret, beret device.”

Although I do agree, if you’re attending a wing activity or something like that, sometimes it is best to just wear a Patrol cap.

Corrected and noted.

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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 808
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2018, 10:29:26 PM »

Hello,
Will CAP permit wearing the Blue Beret with the ABUs after Blue Beret Encampment, or is it just during Blue Beret Encampment? The reason I ask this is because of the Uniform Change letter doesn't seem clear to me and also the USAF Security Forces wear a Navy Blue, Blue Beret very similar to the CAP Blue Beret.

V/R
Cadet Airman
Francis DeRosa

First, congratulations on being accepted to attend NBB this year.

Next, as of right now, you may only wear the beret at NBB if you elect to wear ABUs. If you elect to wear BDUs during the transition phase you may wear the beret with that uniform outside of NBB; no further supplement/approval is required, though local commanders and activity directors can restrict its wear.

Lastly, if you do elect to wear the beret with the BDUs outside of NBB, be aware that there are many berets out there watching you and your actions. We are a tight knit family and will not tolerate those who bring discredit to the uniform or the beret (or more specifically the St. Albans Cross).

And again, congratulations; I look forward to working with you and all the other participants.

What does this even mean?

“Berets” are head coverings, not people. And, when did wearers of said head coverings get appointed to “...watch[ing] you and your actions?”  And, what do they plan to do if they “...will not tolerate those who bring discredit...?”

They attended an activity and were given permission to wear a hat. They weren’t appointed to some mystical order of Illuminati and empowered to protect “the sacred hat.”

Geez. Cult much?


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« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 03:05:50 AM by Mitchell 1969 » Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
ColonelJack
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Posts: 1,363
Unit: SER-GA-153

« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2018, 08:06:50 AM »


They attended an activity and were given permission to wear a hat. They weren’t appointed to some mystical order of Illuminati and empowered to protect “the sacred hat.”


A silly French hat.  (Fixed that for you.)

Jack
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Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., Civil Air Patrol
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Trenzalorian
Forum Regular

Posts: 102
Unit: NY-406

« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2018, 10:26:13 PM »

Hello,
Will CAP permit wearing the Blue Beret with the ABUs after Blue Beret Encampment, or is it just during Blue Beret Encampment? The reason I ask this is because of the Uniform Change letter doesn't seem clear to me and also the USAF Security Forces wear a Navy Blue, Blue Beret very similar to the CAP Blue Beret.

V/R
Cadet Airman
Francis DeRosa

First, congratulations on being accepted to attend NBB this year.

Next, as of right now, you may only wear the beret at NBB if you elect to wear ABUs. If you elect to wear BDUs during the transition phase you may wear the beret with that uniform outside of NBB; no further supplement/approval is required, though local commanders and activity directors can restrict its wear.

Lastly, if you do elect to wear the beret with the BDUs outside of NBB, be aware that there are many berets out there watching you and your actions. We are a tight knit family and will not tolerate those who bring discredit to the uniform or the beret (or more specifically the St. Albans Cross).

And again, congratulations; I look forward to working with you and all the other participants.

What does this even mean?

“Berets” are head coverings, not people. And, when did wearers of said head coverings get appointed to “...watch[ing] you and your actions?”  And, what do they plan to do if they “...will not tolerate those who bring discredit...?”

They attended an activity and were given permission to wear a hat. They weren’t appointed to some mystical order of Illuminati and empowered to protect “the sacred hat.”

Geez. Cult much?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Geez, sir.

"Beret" is a simple term to refer to a cadet that graduated from National Blue Beret. Efficiency in communication is a key leadership skill.

And all Cadets and Officers that attend do join the Order of St. Alban, a society of people that have attended the Activity and adhere to a set of values augmenting those of CAP.

Yes, there is plenty of kool-aid dispensed, but come on, please lighten up. This is CAP, not the actual military.
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Eaker #3363
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NBB '16, Oscar Operators!
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,285

« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2018, 11:02:34 PM »

Hello,
Will CAP permit wearing the Blue Beret with the ABUs after Blue Beret Encampment, or is it just during Blue Beret Encampment? The reason I ask this is because of the Uniform Change letter doesn't seem clear to me and also the USAF Security Forces wear a Navy Blue, Blue Beret very similar to the CAP Blue Beret.

V/R
Cadet Airman
Francis DeRosa

First, congratulations on being accepted to attend NBB this year.

Next, as of right now, you may only wear the beret at NBB if you elect to wear ABUs. If you elect to wear BDUs during the transition phase you may wear the beret with that uniform outside of NBB; no further supplement/approval is required, though local commanders and activity directors can restrict its wear.

Lastly, if you do elect to wear the beret with the BDUs outside of NBB, be aware that there are many berets out there watching you and your actions. We are a tight knit family and will not tolerate those who bring discredit to the uniform or the beret (or more specifically the St. Albans Cross).

And again, congratulations; I look forward to working with you and all the other participants.

What does this even mean?

“Berets” are head coverings, not people. And, when did wearers of said head coverings get appointed to “...watch[ing] you and your actions?”  And, what do they plan to do if they “...will not tolerate those who bring discredit...?”

They attended an activity and were given permission to wear a hat. They weren’t appointed to some mystical order of Illuminati and empowered to protect “the sacred hat.”

Geez. Cult much?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Geez, sir.

"Beret" is a simple term to refer to a cadet that graduated from National Blue Beret. Efficiency in communication is a key leadership skill.
So is clarity in communication, which is far more important than efficiency.

Quote
And all Cadets and Officers that attend do join the Order of St. Alban, a society of people that have attended the Activity and adhere to a set of values augmenting those of CAP.
And this is why many of us have a not-so-high opinion of NBB graduates. You claim to be special, and in many cases, cause issues with your French hat.

Quote
Yes, there is plenty of kool-aid dispensed, but come on, please lighten up. This is CAP, not the actual military.
Quit drinking the kool-aid.
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 808
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2018, 12:53:26 AM »

Hello,
Will CAP permit wearing the Blue Beret with the ABUs after Blue Beret Encampment, or is it just during Blue Beret Encampment? The reason I ask this is because of the Uniform Change letter doesn't seem clear to me and also the USAF Security Forces wear a Navy Blue, Blue Beret very similar to the CAP Blue Beret.

V/R
Cadet Airman
Francis DeRosa

First, congratulations on being accepted to attend NBB this year.

Next, as of right now, you may only wear the beret at NBB if you elect to wear ABUs. If you elect to wear BDUs during the transition phase you may wear the beret with that uniform outside of NBB; no further supplement/approval is required, though local commanders and activity directors can restrict its wear.

Lastly, if you do elect to wear the beret with the BDUs outside of NBB, be aware that there are many berets out there watching you and your actions. We are a tight knit family and will not tolerate those who bring discredit to the uniform or the beret (or more specifically the St. Albans Cross).

And again, congratulations; I look forward to working with you and all the other participants.

What does this even mean?

“Berets” are head coverings, not people. And, when did wearers of said head coverings get appointed to “...watch[ing] you and your actions?”  And, what do they plan to do if they “...will not tolerate those who bring discredit...?”

They attended an activity and were given permission to wear a hat. They weren’t appointed to some mystical order of Illuminati and empowered to protect “the sacred hat.”

Geez. Cult much?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Geez, sir.

"Beret" is a simple term to refer to a cadet that graduated from National Blue Beret. Efficiency in communication is a key leadership skill.

And all Cadets and Officers that attend do join the Order of St. Alban, a society of people that have attended the Activity and adhere to a set of values augmenting those of CAP.

Yes, there is plenty of kool-aid dispensed, but come on, please lighten up. This is CAP, not the actual military.

You’re helping me make my points. Thank you.

If “Beret is a simple term used to refer to a cadet that graduated from National Blue Beret” (Which, as stated in the title is “National,” then can you refer me to the CAPM, CAPR, CAPP or letter, memo, sticky note or gum wrapper that actually says that? Wouldn’t “Energy in communications...” being such a “...key leadership skill” demand such a thing in order to make such designation universally understood within the organization?

Same questions and comments go toward the “Society of St. Alban,” which sounds like a made-up thing with no official reference to purpose, need or even its very existence, other than to separate beanie wearers from the rest of CAP. 




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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,093

« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2018, 12:54:51 PM »

be aware that there are many berets out there watching you and your actions.

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit creepy there will be a hat watching his every move?



"That's just funny right there, I don't care who you are."


“Berets” are head coverings

True; beret is also a term used to describe those who have earned or wear a beret. This is not unique to CAP or NBB.

Quote
And, when did wearers of said head coverings get appointed to “...watch[ing] you and your actions?”

It is the responsibility of every CAP member to enforce the standards of the organization, which requires keeping a watchful eye. NCSA participants are not relieved of this duty.

Quote
And, what do they plan to do if they “...will not tolerate those who bring discredit...?”

Both cadets and seniors have had activity credit revoked and their beret and St Albans pin taken away both at the activity and after it.

Quote
They attended an activity and were given permission to wear a hat. They weren’t appointed to some mystical order of Illuminati and empowered to protect “the sacred hat.”

No one is protecting the hat. As we teach cadets and seniors who attend; the person makes the hat, the hat does not make the person.

Quote
Geez. Cult much?

Geez. Jealous much?

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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,411

« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2018, 01:08:09 PM »

Guys, this is a measuring contest over aircraft parking...

Take a breather.

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,972

« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2018, 02:09:31 PM »

Guys, this is a measuring contest over aircraft parking...

Actually, car parking, just sayin'...
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,560
Unit: Classified

« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2018, 02:21:57 PM »

be aware that there are many berets out there watching you and your actions.

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit creepy there will be a hat watching his every move?



"That's just funny right there, I don't care who you are."


“Berets” are head coverings

True; beret is also a term used to describe those who have earned or wear a beret. This is not unique to CAP or NBB.

Quote
And, when did wearers of said head coverings get appointed to “...watch[ing] you and your actions?”

It is the responsibility of every CAP member to enforce the standards of the organization, which requires keeping a watchful eye. NCSA participants are not relieved of this duty.

Quote
And, what do they plan to do if they “...will not tolerate those who bring discredit...?”

Both cadets and seniors have had activity credit revoked and their beret and St Albans pin taken away both at the activity and after it.

Quote
They attended an activity and were given permission to wear a hat. They weren’t appointed to some mystical order of Illuminati and empowered to protect “the sacred hat.”

No one is protecting the hat. As we teach cadets and seniors who attend; the person makes the hat, the hat does not make the person.

Quote
Geez. Cult much?

Geez. Jealous much?

As someone who wore a beret for 12 years the cult mentality of NBB is comical.  Almost as comical as everyone who thinks CAP is the alpha and omega of the SAR world.  This is akin to the Hawk psuedo "rangers" and many other things. 

You really want to earn/wear a beret join the military and serve in any number of the fields it's awarded to after a significant amount of time... 
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MHC5096
Forum Regular

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« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2018, 03:18:13 PM »

Or just enlist in the Army and make it through basic training.  ;)
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M. H. Crary
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Eclipse
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« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2018, 03:28:31 PM »

Or go to mime school...

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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,404
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« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2018, 03:35:43 PM »

I think the practice of calling NBB graduates "Berets" derives from a certain military group founded in 1952. The United States Army Special Forces are colloquially known as the Green Berets due to their distinctive service headgear. I acknowledge the difference between the two organizations, so let's stay off that path.
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Dave Bowles
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kwe1009
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Posts: 915

« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2018, 04:20:36 PM »

When I was in USAF tech school many moons ago there was a drill team made up of students and they wore red berets.  The group was often called "berets" as well.

Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free. 
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arajca
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« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2018, 05:07:15 PM »

When I was in USAF tech school many moons ago there was a drill team made up of students and they wore red berets.  The group was often called "berets" as well.

Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.
It pretty much is that. National experimented with removing the beret and the activity almost closed due to lack of interest. Tells me the prime motivation is the funny hat, not the training, as the only purported change was no beret at or after activity. Despite what the NBB folks will tell you.
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68w20
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2018, 01:04:02 PM »

I'm legitimately confused by the last couple posts, and I'm hoping that you can both clarify for me.


Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.

Who is creating the "scheme" in this sentence?  Is it NHQ?  Is it the EAA?  My understanding is that CAP provides assistance to EAA in running their air show each year.  Airventure requires thousands of volunteers (5,000 in 2017) providing a ridiculous amount of work in order to function.  The end result is a fantastic air show that draws in hundreds of thousands of visitors (nearly 600,000 in 2017).  Scheme seems to indicate that someone is taking advantage of someone else.  It seems to me that that isn't the case, given that literally thousands of people happily give their time, talents, and treasure to make the airshow a success each year.


It pretty much is that. National experimented with removing the beret and the activity almost closed due to lack of interest. Tells me the prime motivation is the funny hat, not the training, as the only purported change was no beret at or after activity. Despite what the NBB folks will tell you.

You're right.  They took away the hat in the early 90s, and there was a significant drop in personnel attending the event.  The result of this was that the few that did attend were slammed with the taskings required of CAP during the event.  National made the decision to again offer the beret as a form of motivation.  The result of this action was that we again had large numbers of CAP personnel in attendance, and CAP has continued to provide outstanding volunteer service to EAA for the last couple decades since.  It seems silly to me that the hat had that great of an effect on attendance, but it did. 

Each year, we send a couple hundred people to Oshkosh to provide the EAA with support.  I've attended 4 times; twice as a Cadet, and twice as a Senior Member.  Each time, EAA makes it abundantly clear to us that we are a key component of their volunteer work force.  Each year, CAP interacts with hundreds of thousands of people through Airventure.  This happens as a result of hard work from local CAP personnel conducting SAR support during the event, recruiting booths, as well as people from all over the country wearing fuzzy, blue hats marshalling planes and looking for overdue aircraft.

My experience with Cadets attending NBB has been overwhelmingly positive.  I understand that some participants out there give the rest of us a bad name.  As a Squadron Commander, I feel that it's incumbent upon me to mentor and guide our Cadets into being outstanding leaders, citizens, and people.  Part of that may involve uncomfortable conversations regarding the importance (or lack thereof) of certain pieces of headgear. 

The cost-benefit relationship seems pretty clear to me on this.  CAP provides help to a great organization in a multinational event that draws in hundreds of thousands of visitors, CAP members get a really cool experience (and a fuzzy hat), and some of those members end up using those skills when they return to their Squadrons (I've used MRO and UDF numerous times at the local level, both of which I achieved during NBB). 

The trade-off is that sometimes we have to talk with Cadets about how they should act right.  Funnily enough, I feel like that's part of what we're supposed to be doing anyway.  Yes, I'm certain I read that somewhere once. 
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lordmonar
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« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2018, 01:17:57 PM »

When I was in USAF tech school many moons ago there was a drill team made up of students and they wore red berets.  The group was often called "berets" as well.

Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.
It pretty much is that. National experimented with removing the beret and the activity almost closed due to lack of interest. Tells me the prime motivation is the funny hat, not the training, as the only purported change was no beret at or after activity. Despite what the NBB folks will tell you.
Really guys?   You guys just not figuring that out?

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2018, 01:44:04 PM »

Each time, EAA makes it abundantly clear to us that we are a key component of their volunteer work force. 

Yet despite this rhetoric, CAP is essentially absent from any mention on the main website, or as a "partner", and in the most recent
comprehensive documentary I've seen (which admittedly is somewhat old at this point), not mentioned or seen, anywhere.

I have no doubt that the EAA appreciates the assistance, as it would with any group that showed up willing to
work for free while hundreds of vendors and manufacturers crank their year, but like a lot of other CAP activities,
my suspicion on this has always been that CAP is more excited about their being a big help then the EAA.

As an HAA / NCSA, in and of itself it has value, especially to cadets, but like HMRS, there needs to be perspective
about a participant's place in the CAP universe, and seriously, if you have to give people a hat to show up,
you've answered the question for everyone else.
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kwe1009
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« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2018, 04:30:41 PM »

I'm legitimately confused by the last couple posts, and I'm hoping that you can both clarify for me.


Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.

Who is creating the "scheme" in this sentence?  Is it NHQ?  Is it the EAA?  My understanding is that CAP provides assistance to EAA in running their air show each year.  Airventure requires thousands of volunteers (5,000 in 2017) providing a ridiculous amount of work in order to function.  The end result is a fantastic air show that draws in hundreds of thousands of visitors (nearly 600,000 in 2017).  Scheme seems to indicate that someone is taking advantage of someone else.  It seems to me that that isn't the case, given that literally thousands of people happily give their time, talents, and treasure to make the airshow a success each year.

I have no issue with going out and helping at an air show, but I don't see the connection between marshaling aircraft, trash duty, etc. and a fancy hat and oath.  The very fact that the NCSA is called "Blue Beret" would certainly imply it is all about the hat.  Scheme is probably the correct word since as was stated elsewhere, participation dropped when the beret went away.  My comments have zero to do with the air show and are not meant to demean anyone as I know that a lot of work goes into this from a CAP standpoint.  I am simply questioning the reason to award a distinctive uniform item and having the air of super importance to those that wear it and recite the special oath.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over a cadet (or SM) getting a beret or not but I would like to know what specialized training these people receive that would warrant any special headgear.
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Holding Pattern
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« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2018, 04:39:14 PM »

When I was in USAF tech school many moons ago there was a drill team made up of students and they wore red berets.  The group was often called "berets" as well.

Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.
It pretty much is that. National experimented with removing the beret and the activity almost closed due to lack of interest. Tells me the prime motivation is the funny hat, not the training, as the only purported change was no beret at or after activity. Despite what the NBB folks will tell you.
Really guys?   You guys just not figuring that out?

These are the same people that will be shocked at the drop in membership in CAP if they manage to take uniforms away.
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Offutteer
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« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2018, 04:42:56 PM »

When they got rid of the beret, they also required cadets to get the smurf suit, rather than use their BDUs.  That also had something to do with the drop in attendance.  No beret AND you had to purchase and then WEAR that ridiculous "uniform"?  Ya, no thanks.
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kwe1009
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« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2018, 04:52:42 PM »

When I was in USAF tech school many moons ago there was a drill team made up of students and they wore red berets.  The group was often called "berets" as well.

Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.
It pretty much is that. National experimented with removing the beret and the activity almost closed due to lack of interest. Tells me the prime motivation is the funny hat, not the training, as the only purported change was no beret at or after activity. Despite what the NBB folks will tell you.
Really guys?   You guys just not figuring that out?

I figured this out about 5 minutes after I first heard about the program. 
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68w20
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Posts: 171

« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2018, 04:54:13 PM »

Each time, EAA makes it abundantly clear to us that we are a key component of their volunteer work force. 

Yet despite this rhetoric, CAP is essentially absent from any mention on the main website, or as a "partner", and in the most recent
comprehensive documentary I've seen (which admittedly is somewhat old at this point), not mentioned or seen, anywhere.

I have no doubt that the EAA appreciates the assistance, as it would with any group that showed up willing to
work for free while hundreds of vendors and manufacturers crank their year, but like a lot of other CAP activities,
my suspicion on this has always been that CAP is more excited about their being a big help then the EAA.

As an HAA / NCSA, in and of itself it has value, especially to cadets, but like HMRS, there needs to be perspective
about a participant's place in the CAP universe, and seriously, if you have to give people a hat to show up,
you've answered the question for everyone else.

CAP not getting enough out of the deal is a legitimate point, and not being mentioned on key marketing materials is a worthy concern.  What then is the solution?  Remove CAP from the event entirely? 

I'm legitimately confused by the last couple posts, and I'm hoping that you can both clarify for me.


Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.

Who is creating the "scheme" in this sentence?  Is it NHQ?  Is it the EAA?  My understanding is that CAP provides assistance to EAA in running their air show each year.  Airventure requires thousands of volunteers (5,000 in 2017) providing a ridiculous amount of work in order to function.  The end result is a fantastic air show that draws in hundreds of thousands of visitors (nearly 600,000 in 2017).  Scheme seems to indicate that someone is taking advantage of someone else.  It seems to me that that isn't the case, given that literally thousands of people happily give their time, talents, and treasure to make the airshow a success each year.

I have no issue with going out and helping at an air show, but I don't see the connection between marshaling aircraft, trash duty, etc. and a fancy hat and oath.  The very fact that the NCSA is called "Blue Beret" would certainly imply it is all about the hat.  Scheme is probably the correct word since as was stated elsewhere, participation dropped when the beret went away.  My comments have zero to do with the air show and are not meant to demean anyone as I know that a lot of work goes into this from a CAP standpoint.  I am simply questioning the reason to award a distinctive uniform item and having the air of super importance to those that wear it and recite the special oath.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over a cadet (or SM) getting a beret or not but I would like to know what specialized training these people receive that would warrant any special headgear.

If you're looking for specific, quantifiable criteria, then I guess you're looking to hear that participants are (generally) qualified as UDF/FLM/MRO, and then use those specialties during the airshow.  We've set the precedent in our organization (CAPM39-1 6.2.5) that we'll allow the wear of berets when members meet certain criteria (in practice, generally associated with some kind of ES rating).  With the exception of anecdotal "my cousin's best friend once met a "Beret" and they said they were basically CAP's special forces" stories, I fail to see how this is any different.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2018, 05:08:53 PM »

Each time, EAA makes it abundantly clear to us that we are a key component of their volunteer work force. 

Yet despite this rhetoric, CAP is essentially absent from any mention on the main website, or as a "partner", and in the most recent
comprehensive documentary I've seen (which admittedly is somewhat old at this point), not mentioned or seen, anywhere.

I have no doubt that the EAA appreciates the assistance, as it would with any group that showed up willing to
work for free while hundreds of vendors and manufacturers crank their year, but like a lot of other CAP activities,
my suspicion on this has always been that CAP is more excited about their being a big help then the EAA.

As an HAA / NCSA, in and of itself it has value, especially to cadets, but like HMRS, there needs to be perspective
about a participant's place in the CAP universe, and seriously, if you have to give people a hat to show up,
you've answered the question for everyone else.

CAP not getting enough out of the deal is a legitimate point, and not being mentioned on key marketing materials is a worthy concern.  What then is the solution?  Remove CAP from the event entirely? 

That should certainly be on the table, as it should always be with every activity and mission CAP
participate in, or at the least stop marketing the activity as "special" or "elite", and or
that CAP is some key partner.  Asking for a little press in return for hundred of hours of volunteer effort
is not unreasonable for a "partner".

The likely issue is that the EAA is made up of members of the GA community who know CAP for all that it is and isn't.
Plenty of members are in the EAA, but like the ARC, it's a well-funded machine that doesn't need CAP, per se, for anything.

I know there are plenty of places around the country where the EAA and CAP work well together and partner for
various activities, however my personal experience has been that they could take or leave CAP being around
because it's a non-factor to them.

It would be interesting to know if CAP pays rent for its space at the show.  Might not mean much in the grand scheme,
but a true partner in the way that Airventure is sold, should be getting comped on the space, at the very least.
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kwe1009
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Posts: 915

« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2018, 06:47:07 PM »


If you're looking for specific, quantifiable criteria, then I guess you're looking to hear that participants are (generally) qualified as UDF/FLM/MRO, and then use those specialties during the airshow.  We've set the precedent in our organization (CAPM39-1 6.2.5) that we'll allow the wear of berets when members meet certain criteria (in practice, generally associated with some kind of ES rating).  With the exception of anecdotal "my cousin's best friend once met a "Beret" and they said they were basically CAP's special forces" stories, I fail to see how this is any different.

That really isn't specialized training to me.  I'm talking about training only available at that event.  And again, what does a beret and an oath have to do with UDF/FLM/MRO qualifications?  Distinctive uniform items really should only be used to show that someone has a specialized skill that few others have.  I personally have all of these ES qualifications (and more) but I don't see the real need for it.  I'm not against special uniform items, I would just like to see that they really symbolize something.  I'm just not seeing that with the berets.
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etodd
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« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2018, 06:55:40 PM »

A little side note to all the EAA comments. This is great for Cadets!

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/activities/cadet-flying/cap-cadets--young-eagles/
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DocJekyll
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« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2018, 08:16:31 PM »


If you're looking for specific, quantifiable criteria, then I guess you're looking to hear that participants are (generally) qualified as UDF/FLM/MRO, and then use those specialties during the airshow.  We've set the precedent in our organization (CAPM39-1 6.2.5) that we'll allow the wear of berets when members meet certain criteria (in practice, generally associated with some kind of ES rating).  With the exception of anecdotal "my cousin's best friend once met a "Beret" and they said they were basically CAP's special forces" stories, I fail to see how this is any different.

That really isn't specialized training to me.  I'm talking about training only available at that event.  And again, what does a beret and an oath have to do with UDF/FLM/MRO qualifications?  Distinctive uniform items really should only be used to show that someone has a specialized skill that few others have.  I personally have all of these ES qualifications (and more) but I don't see the real need for it.  I'm not against special uniform items, I would just like to see that they really symbolize something.  I'm just not seeing that with the berets.

Fair point, but I'll maybe add a counter point. Although FLM/MRO/UDF isn't "specialized training" in it of itself and all of CAP can get that training elsewhere, what is quite different is the sheer volume of information, complexity and understanding of the material. I think back to NBB 05 and 06 and can remember several times where we'd have between 6 and upwards of 9 to 10 ELT's going off on a field packed with aircraft, hangars, walls, etc. concurrently. Knowing your stuff is essential, and you'd be hard pressed to get better hands on experience than in a saturated environment like that. Do I think it's CAP-SOC or something? No, hardly, and I think you'd be hard pressed to see anyone who's actually gone ever seriously call it something that ridiculous.

Did I come for the hat? Ehh... I'm embarrassed to say yes but I was also 15/16 at the time and had a lot to learn, but once I got there I learned what the activity was really about I found new meaning in that silly hat. Call it kool-aid, whatever. Sure it's a hat, but I can't think of a time where I met another beret (and yes, it's a colloquialism for someone who's attended NBB, geez guys why all the hate and calling out every little thing. It's the internet not life/death) outside of the activity where we didn't become close friends and bond over our shared experiences even if it was years separated. Whether I like it or not, that silly french hat doesn't stand for a special set of skills as much as it stands for the guys and gals next to you and sharing in accomplishing a mission with a unique complexity and scope. If you read the oath for Berets, it's about the mission and those next to you, and that's really what NBB is about.

Now, I've not been back since 06, and I know things have somewhat changed in 12 years, but I'd bet they haven't changed TOO much.

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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2018, 09:09:44 PM »

Irrespective of the hat or value debate, I would like to point out that Wisconsin Wing partners with AFRCC every year to stand up a 24/7 precautionary SAR mission for the duration of Airventure, to much less internal fanfare than NBB. CAP resources stage at several of the overflow fields and provide state-wide SAR coverage in the event of an overdue aircraft. Basically, NBB’s ES mission except it covers the other 99.9% of the state.

If I were to change where I spend my CAP vacation days, that’s where I would put them. Good people, good mission.


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Fubar
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Posts: 689

« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2018, 10:40:43 PM »

I'm legitimately confused by the last couple posts, and I'm hoping that you can both clarify for me.


Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.

Who is creating the "scheme" in this sentence?  Is it NHQ?  Is it the EAA?  My understanding is that CAP provides assistance to EAA in running their air show each year.  Airventure requires thousands of volunteers (5,000 in 2017) providing a ridiculous amount of work in order to function.  The end result is a fantastic air show that draws in hundreds of thousands of visitors (nearly 600,000 in 2017).  Scheme seems to indicate that someone is taking advantage of someone else.  It seems to me that that isn't the case, given that literally thousands of people happily give their time, talents, and treasure to make the airshow a success each year.

I don't think I'd go so far as to call it a scheme, but there certainly is an invested interested by the NBB leaders and people who return every year to ensure the activity they love so much remains. If you dumped the hat and the event went away, so does the opportunity for a number of people to be in charge of something or return to the escape from their regular lives.

The EAA certainly isn't an interested party, they barely acknowledge CAP's presence.

Each year, we send a couple hundred people to Oshkosh to provide the EAA with support.  I've attended 4 times; twice as a Cadet, and twice as a Senior Member.  Each time, EAA makes it abundantly clear to us that we are a key component of their volunteer work force.

Unless something has significantly changed, the EAA does not go out of their way to acknowledge CAP's participation. The head EAA guy for marshellers who zips around in his love bug convertible has a cult following at NBB, yet he's the same guy who ensures CAP cadets are never assigned to positions of importance. Cadets are always placed along the marked taxi route, they simply point to the next traffic cone and cadet who marks the route. The one exemption to this is the first cadet off the runway has to point left or right depending upon a sign help up by the pilot (where they want to park), otherwise there's no actual marshelling occurring. Whenever something important comes in, such as a large flight of bonanzas or or military aircraft, EAA volunteers take over.

But hey, the EAA throws a BBQ for all volunteers and includes the CAP cadets, so clearly they love us.

The EAA isn't dumb though. Every little issue that pops up during the week they'll ask CAP if they can support it. We need cadets to "guard" an airplane by standing near it for 12 hours and say "don't touch this" or there was a change in the schedule and we need cadets to stand and create a rope fence near some warbirds. The NBB folks never say no to a EAA request, I suspect out of fear they'll somehow not be invited back the next year. The fact that this spur of the moment requests prevent a number of CAP cadets from seeing the air shows, visiting vendors, or taking in anything Oshkosh related isn't even considered by the leadership, yet the advertising is "come to the biggest airshow" as if you might enjoy some of it.

Last time I swung by the airshow I was told the warbird guys where hoping to expand and take over CAP's area, the same warbird group that CAP supports each year by having cadets serve as a static fence line. I believe CAP, Inc owns/leases the building and land though.

I think that if NBB went away and the Wisconsin Wing simply took over ELT deactivation and overdue aircraft searches, but accepted people from other wings to come in and help, we could accomplish the same mission without all the heartache and drama. Wisconsin Wing might not want the additional workload though, they're already chasing ELTs and overdue aircraft all over the rest of the state.
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etodd
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« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2018, 11:07:11 PM »


.... the EAA does not go out of their way to acknowledge CAP's participation.


Is that a problem? Are folks there as humble servants, or for the recognition? No, I haven't worked this event, but in the various things I do, I'm quite happy being the worker bee. Doesn't bother me if others take credit. Some folks are just like the ones you mention at EAA and want to be in the spotlight. Every org has them. I take pride in my work. Those around me that 'matter' know what we all are doing.
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DocJekyll
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Posts: 173

« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2018, 11:20:47 PM »


.... the EAA does not go out of their way to acknowledge CAP's participation.


Is that a problem? Are folks there as humble servants, or for the recognition? No, I haven't worked this event, but in the various things I do, I'm quite happy being the worker bee. Doesn't bother me if others take credit. Some folks are just like the ones you mention at EAA and want to be in the spotlight. Every org has them. I take pride in my work. Those around me that 'matter' know what we all are doing.

To throw it out there for S&G's, and if all the hate on the activity is to be believed/validated, you get the silly french hat, why would we need any more recognition than that?

Ok, Ok, I admit I was stirring the pot with that one.  >:D I'll go hide in my corner now.
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Fubar
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« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2018, 11:47:46 PM »


.... the EAA does not go out of their way to acknowledge CAP's participation.


Is that a problem? Are folks there as humble servants, or for the recognition? No, I haven't worked this event, but in the various things I do, I'm quite happy being the worker bee. Doesn't bother me if others take credit. Some folks are just like the ones you mention at EAA and want to be in the spotlight. Every org has them. I take pride in my work. Those around me that 'matter' know what we all are doing.

That's a fair point, but from an organizational standpoint, CAP, Inc. should ensure we get proper recognition for the services we provide. That's how you increase awareness of the organization, create strong partnerships that lead to additional funding sources, or even justify the existing corporate donations and government appropriations we receive.

There's also a legitimate discussion to be had about providing a teenage labor force for free to an organization with over 200,000 members that has more than $50 million in annual income at an event creating $110 million dollars of tourist income for the local community.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2018, 12:12:26 AM »

There's also a legitimate discussion to be had about providing a teenage labor force for free to an organization with over 200,000 members that has more than $50 million in annual income at an event creating $110 million dollars of tourist income for the local community.

^This.

The activity is marketed like some "Pancake Fly-in" and that helping out is a "community service", when in fact it's a huge, extremely
profitable business venture.  It's CES for aviation, literally.

As of writing this, there is zero mention of CAP that I can find on their website or other collateral.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2018, 06:25:00 AM »

In addition to the discussion about getting excited to provide free labor to somebody else’s fundraiser, with a magic hat as the reward, I’d like to go back to what was said earlier.

Specifically, about his “berets” constantly watch other “berets” for real or imagined transgressions of ...something... . To that was added a statement to the effect that the hats and the St. Alban’s Cross have been removed from people who possessed them.

Who, exactly, are the “berets” who are the “watchers?” Who appoints them? How? What is their reporting process for transgressions once the “watching” has revealed ...something... which the watcher finds objectionable? To whom are those reports sent? And - what regulation, manual, pamphlet, supplement, memo or note outlines the process wherein “Berets” are empowered to relieve other “Berets” of their, uh, berets?

Am I the only one who sees the cult-like overtones to what appears to be an undocumented secret society within CAP, complete with its own regalia, oath and, for all I know, secret handshakes?


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Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
DocJekyll
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Posts: 173

« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2018, 09:13:44 AM »

In addition to the discussion about getting excited to provide free labor to somebody else’s fundraiser, with a magic hat as the reward, I’d like to go back to what was said earlier.

Specifically, about his “berets” constantly watch other “berets” for real or imagined transgressions of ...something... . To that was added a statement to the effect that the hats and the St. Alban’s Cross have been removed from people who possessed them.

Who, exactly, are the “berets” who are the “watchers?” Who appoints them? How? What is their reporting process for transgressions once the “watching” has revealed ...something... which the watcher finds objectionable? To whom are those reports sent? And - what regulation, manual, pamphlet, supplement, memo or note outlines the process wherein “Berets” are empowered to relieve other “Berets” of their, uh, berets?

Am I the only one who sees the cult-like overtones to what appears to be an undocumented secret society within CAP, complete with its own regalia, oath and, for all I know, secret handshakes?


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I can only infer from my own body of experience as a beret. It's kinda like being your brothers keeper so to speak. We just look out for and care for each other because of our shared experiences. I think you're taking it too literally and trying to dismantle something in your mind that is a lot more complex than it actually is. I know there's a lot of misspeak going around on it, but I can give you an example from my personal life:

A few months after NBB 06, one of the dudes that I commanded a flight with passed away in a plane crash (those of you that know, you know who it is and likely who I am). I drove 8.5 hrs to where his family lived in the cold, snowy December as a 17 year old with a half beaten down unreliable truck to be there for him and his family...and the other berets that came out for support as well. We were all very close and those 2-3 days we celebrated his life we became even closer.

Now that's probably a little more serious than the occasional correction like "hey dude, you're being a d#(#&@, knock it off that's not what we're about." but it's in the same vein. It's no different in other groups, it just so happens that this particular group gets a lot of hate from the rest of it's org, which I've always found odd.

I think that the tones and accusations of cult-like behavior about those who attend NBB are a bit too hyperbolic. The freemasons it isn't.
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isuhawkeye
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John's web site
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2018, 10:44:36 AM »

I had the pleasure of serving at Oshkosh several times over my CAP career, and I feel like I need to address a few things that have come up in this discussion. 

First, the events surrounding EAA Oshkosh are some of the largest real-world events that CAP runs on a regular basis.  The incident management experience of running a complex incident with multiple sites over several operational periods is incredibly valuable for the development of Communications capabilities, direction finding skills, Incident Management Teams, and much more.  I am surprised that CAP has not done more to bring national attention to the work of the Wisconsin wing.  It could be a great place to develop type 1 and type 2 incident management team members. 

Second, this is one of the only training events that CAP runs that culminates with real-world mission experience. 

Third, to say that EAA doesn't recognize CAP's contribution is not correct.  Considering that CAP is a relatively small presence on the field we get a lot of regular recognition.  Write-ups in the daily newspaper are not uncommon, and EAA radio highlights our work.  This is more than the aviation explorers or many other volunteer groups get. 

Next, to say that CAP jumps for every assignment handed out by EAA is incorrect.  CAP has turned down many assignments on the field.  The requests are weighed by the staff and evaluated.

Finally the headgear.  The Beret grew out of an era where CAP fostered the regional development of special teams.  In the late 70's and early 80's, there were rangers, pathfinders, and all sorts of other wiz bang team names all across the country.  Iowa's Special Service Corps became the North Central Region Special Service Corps which evolved into the National Blue Beret Activity as it exists today.  In its early years, the event was much longer with a week-long field training exercise at Fort McCoy followed by the operational support of the airshow.  Should the headgear be evaluated, probably, but if it is it should be considered along with Ranger tabs and other bling that CAP fosters.  Blaming the failure of the CAP/EAA Oshkosh event with its smurf suits and other challenges is not the benchmark against which those decisions should be made. 

Wrap up, As with many youth-centered programs across the country, there is little that is truly special or unique about completing the National blue Beret Activity.  The sense of pride and accomplishment that these young men and women develop is not special compared to that developed through scout camps or other high adventure programs.  This commonality does not diminish the fact that they work hard, they learned skills, and they developed as individuals and teams.  Those very tangible accomplishments make them feel proud, special, and that is cool.  Youth should come out of these programs with an extra confidence.  My experience with CAP youth is that graduates of any National activity come back with a sense of swagger and pride.  I have had issues with graduates of NBB, Hawk Mountain, PJOC, and NEAS who come home thinking that they are better than everyone else.  It's up to local leaders to harness that pride and use it to better the local unit and to encourage greater development of programs.

Thanks for the time, have a great day and enjoy your experience serving your community
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Eclipse
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« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2018, 11:12:08 AM »

Third, to say that EAA doesn't recognize CAP's contribution is not correct.  Considering that CAP is a relatively small presence on the field we get a lot of regular recognition.  Write-ups in the daily newspaper are not uncommon, and EAA radio highlights our work.  This is more than the aviation explorers or many other volunteer groups get. 

This is the issue - reality does not jive with the rhetoric, and that's where the dichotomy with the swagger comes in.

Same goes for recognition - as I mentioned before, the EAA surely appreciates the help, but with zero external mentions
of "partnerships", etc., the overall value nationally, of an activity which CAP portends to be a core part of, is essentially
lost or non-existent.  Mentions in the paper or on EAA radio are the equivalent of encampment newsletters - you're
just preaching to the choir.

The comment about the communications and ICS training opportunities is interesting, but again lost.  I don't think I've ever once
heard or read anything regarding the challenges and best practices in this regard.  I've said for years that if NHQ made Airventure
participants, NESA grads, and "Rangers" the "first-call / first go" teams in major incidents, the grief they get about bling and
elitism would be significantly less.  Yes, these members go to missions like everyone else, but not as a "x" team, just
anecdotally if their wing is involved.

Like a lot of other CAP "non-issue-issues" it goes away with a pen - "leave the hat at the activity, and wear your standard NCSA
patch and dec proudly", but the reality, as mentioned, if that because of the way these activities (not so much NESA) are
marketed, if the "special" is removed, people won't show.

It would be a very interesting exercise to see how many people would go to HMRS if the awards were "just" a dec and a patch.
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isuhawkeye
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John's web site
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2018, 11:31:00 AM »

Quote
Same goes for recognition - as I mentioned before, the EAA surely appreciates the help, but with zero external mentions
of "partnerships", etc., the overall value nationally, of an activity which CAP portends to be a core part of, is essentially
lost or non-existent.  Mentions in the paper or on EAA radio are the equivalent of encampment newsletters - you're
just preaching to the choir.

A recruiting pool of over 500,000 people in attendance all of whom are aviation enthusiasts is a little more than an encampment newsletter
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 336

« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2018, 11:50:57 AM »

This has turned into the best discussion of NBB I’ve seen on this forum.

Incidentally, the best parts of it are when it moves past the beret.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,972

« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2018, 12:00:43 PM »

Quote
Same goes for recognition - as I mentioned before, the EAA surely appreciates the help, but with zero external mentions
of "partnerships", etc., the overall value nationally, of an activity which CAP portends to be a core part of, is essentially
lost or non-existent.  Mentions in the paper or on EAA radio are the equivalent of encampment newsletters - you're
just preaching to the choir.

A recruiting pool of over 500,000 people in attendance all of whom are aviation enthusiasts is a little more than an encampment newsletter

That sounds like a Shark Tank market estimate that would get Cuban all upset, but fair enough, it's still the choir.

Otherwise CAP would see an annual "OshKosh bump", which doesn't happen - you can't even go on the Airventure website
and find a link to CAP, and as someone from a surrounding state, I've never in 18+ years had a new recruit say
"I saw you guys at Oshkosh".

The above point gets more to the typical squandering of opportunity and exposure.

A month out, CAP should be flooding Adsense with "Come see us at booth ##", maybe with a water bottle or
squeeze ball coupon , and then be bringing in reps from every Region (at least, if not every wing) to speak to
people from around the country about what is happening locally in their states, not to mention following up with interested visitors.

(Argument from authority) As someone who works in the Tradeshow industry, I can tell you that just being
"there" isn't enough - you need engagers and follow-up to make the presence worth the expense.
As I said, this and "Sun and Fun" are the CES of Aviation, yet there is zero residual membership
bump at the local level.

Why is that?
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,411

« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2018, 02:04:35 PM »

Is there maybe an issue with the expectation that CAP will always be at Oshkosh, and therefore, maybe get treated as expected staff and not trainees who volunteered to help?

Not compare local operations with an NCSA, but we've faced similar events where a local airport or festival expects us to be there without so much as a mention after the fact in their news article.

Just a thought.
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isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,312

John's web site
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2018, 02:12:11 PM »

Since you doubt the numbers here is the source https://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/eaa-airventure-news-and-multimedia/eaa-airventure-news/eaa-airventure-oshkosh/08-01-17-airventure-2017-facts-and-figures
they do count daily admissions and total the daily admissions, so if you attend each day for 7 days you will be counted 7 times. 

As to the missed marketing opportunity, there is a separate CAP initiative at Air venture in which CAP staffs a very large display space right off of the aeroshell square (show center) where cap sets up aircraft displays, has youth and adults in uniform.  They share their CAP experiences and provide information to those in attendance. 

Finally, in 1996 I was a young man at Oshkosh for the first time.  My dad paid for my ticket so I could go in and walk around the planes.  That was my first exposure to CAP.  That fall I reached out to the squadron that was at the Aurora Illinois airport and a squadron near Naperville Illinois.  I did not get much of a welcome from them.  I ended up joining CAP in the spring of 1998 while I was a student in college.  I returned to Oshkosh in 1999 as a flight officer at NBB

As we often say your mileage may vary
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francisderosa16
Recruit

Posts: 40

« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2018, 08:45:51 PM »

Also,
I recently encountered a Cadet at an air show in CAP Blues with a blue beret on, is this permitted?
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,285

« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2018, 09:07:45 PM »

No.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,210

« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2018, 09:31:48 PM »

Also,
I recently encountered a Cadet at an air show in CAP Blues with a blue beret on, is this permitted?


You sure they were CAP and not AFJROTC? They have different rules you know.
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isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,312

John's web site
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2018, 09:20:12 AM »

Also,
I recently encountered a Cadet at an air show in CAP Blues with a blue beret on, is this permitted?

Do color guards still wear the beret occasionally, or is that a thing of the past?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,972

« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2018, 09:24:26 AM »

Do they? Probably. Allowed? No.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,411

« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2018, 09:54:02 AM »

Do they? Probably. Allowed? No.

This.

I'd argue that a quarter of uniform discrepancies that we see come from "They said I could" and a quarter come from "Oh, I didn't know." The rest more than likely come from "Meh, who cares?"

It's a real pet peeve. How hard is it to wear the right hat and haircut?
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2018, 09:58:29 AM »

Also,
I recently encountered a Cadet at an air show in CAP Blues with a blue beret on, is this permitted?

Do color guards still wear the beret occasionally, or is that a thing of the past?

They can wear the beret but only if authorized by the Wing CC.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2018, 04:35:32 PM »



... In writing, via a Wing (or higher) Supplement to 39-1, which is approved by National HQ, and is posted on the national web site.


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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2018, 09:16:12 AM »



... In writing, via a Wing (or higher) Supplement to 39-1, which is approved by National HQ, and is posted on the national web site.

The "approved by NHQ and on the national website" is the part that many Wings and Regions seem to forget.  No supplement is valid unless it is on the national website.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,560
Unit: Classified

« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2018, 09:37:41 AM »



... In writing, via a Wing (or higher) Supplement to 39-1, which is approved by National HQ, and is posted on the national web site.

The "approved by NHQ and on the national website" is the part that many Wings and Regions seem to forget.  No supplement is valid unless it is on the national website.

And no supplement overrides the parent instruction.  Not to mention that in the ICLs covering ABU wear it is specifically mentioned that berets and red hats are not authorized with ABUs.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,972

« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2018, 11:16:33 PM »

Just going to leave this here...

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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,564

« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2018, 10:44:05 AM »

I think the practice of calling NBB graduates "Berets" derives from a certain military group founded in 1952. The United States Army Special Forces are colloquially known as the Green Berets due to their distinctive service headgear. I acknowledge the difference between the two organizations, so let's stay off that path.

I called a Special Forces soldier a "Green Beret" one time, he quickly educated me that he was not a hat. Out of curiosity, I did the same thing with another one that was not around for the previous conversation. Got the same response.

The people that call them "Green Berets," usually have nothing to do with them.

That being said, I'm a little averse to the idea of referring to graduates of the NBB activity "Berets." It sounds odd, and can be very off-putting. I think it's a practice that needs to be discontinued.

You can call someone a "beret wearer" all day, no issue there. But, labeling them as a "Beret" is weird.  It also strikes me as lazy. Instead of "they have a blue beret," or "they were awarded a blue beret," or "they wear a beret;" someone is saying "they're a beret." Laziness in communication causes miscommunication. And, as has someone has said before, it sounds cultish, or could be misconstrued as artificial elitism.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,411

« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2018, 09:30:11 AM »

I think the practice of calling NBB graduates "Berets" derives from a certain military group founded in 1952. The United States Army Special Forces are colloquially known as the Green Berets due to their distinctive service headgear. I acknowledge the difference between the two organizations, so let's stay off that path.

I called a Special Forces soldier a "Green Beret" one time, he quickly educated me that he was not a hat. Out of curiosity, I did the same thing with another one that was not around for the previous conversation. Got the same response.

The people that call them "Green Berets," usually have nothing to do with them.

That being said, I'm a little averse to the idea of referring to graduates of the NBB activity "Berets." It sounds odd, and can be very off-putting. I think it's a practice that needs to be discontinued.

You can call someone a "beret wearer" all day, no issue there. But, labeling them as a "Beret" is weird.  It also strikes me as lazy. Instead of "they have a blue beret," or "they were awarded a blue beret," or "they wear a beret;" someone is saying "they're a beret." Laziness in communication causes miscommunication. And, as has someone has said before, it sounds cultish, or could be misconstrued as artificial elitism.

Just as "SEAL" is a function, not a title (i.e., "SEAL Team Leader," "SEAL Team Member"). "SPECWAR" is the colloquial designation (i.e., "I was SPECWAR").

Now go around and tell the general public "Don't call them that. That's not their title." Good luck.

The ridiculous of where this thread went is astounding.
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Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 716

« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2018, 10:02:06 AM »

The ridiculous of where this thread went is astounding.
I agree. See y'all for the next one.
*click*
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Blue Beret and ABUs
 


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