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Author Topic: CAP-SAR & State Laws  (Read 2601 times)
cpyahoo
Member

Posts: 69
Unit: PCR-WA-082

« on: May 17, 2018, 11:48:17 AM »

Lemme bounce this off you folks...

Is your CAP ground teams hindered in participating in local SAR because of state laws???

Here in Washington State, SAR is very different.  All air search & rescue is handled by the Washington State Dept. of Transportation - Aviation Emergency Services (WSDOT-AES).  They conduct all ELT and EPIRB searches.  If the search becomes extensive, they will contact CAP for help.  State law mandates WSDOT-AES is the state authority for all air SAR missions and is the de facto Incident Commander (OK, fair enough). 

In order for CAP to participate, you MUST attend WSDOT's 8- hour AES volunteer orientation course AND be issued an AES volunteer ID.  If you do not have this ID... you will not perform on any WSDOT AES mission.  But, it gets stickier...

By state law, the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the county" (Sheriff) is responsible for GSAR.  If a CAP ground team, on a WSDOT missions, locates the ELT signal and it's attached to an airplane that's schmucked into the side of a hill or sifted through the trees, they have to disengage and back off because the incident now becomes a ground search & rescue incident!  CAP are only considers "support teams" for WSDOT, unless your ground team possesses the required state certification for GSAR and the state emergency worker's ID card.  Then... and ONLY then... can they engage the incident as a GSAR team.
Anybody in any other wings deal with similar issues?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 11:52:24 AM by cpyahoo » Logged
Eclipse
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Posts: 28,764

« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2018, 11:55:15 AM »

Is your CAP ground teams hindered in participating in local SAR because of state laws???

No.

Here in Washington State, SAR is very different.  All air search & rescue is handled by the Washington State Dept. of Transportation - Aviation Emergency Services (WSDOT-AES).  They conduct all ELT and EPIRB searches.  If the search becomes extensive, they will contact CAP for help.  State law mandates WSDOT-AES is the state authority for all air SAR missions and is the de facto Incident Commander (OK, fair enough).

In order for CAP to participate, you MUST attend WSDOT's 8- hour AES volunteer orientation course AND be issued an AES volunteer ID.  If you do not have this ID... you will not perform on any WSDOT AES mission.  But, it gets stickier...

By state law, the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the county" (Sheriff) is responsible for GSAR.  If a CAP ground team, on a WSDOT missions, locates the ELT signal and it's attached to an airplane that's schmucked into the side of a hill or sifted through the trees, they have to disengage and back off because the incident now becomes a ground search & rescue incident!  CAP ground teams are only considered "support teams" for WSDOT unless they possess the state emergency worker ID card for GSAR. 

Anybody in any other wings deal with similar issues?

A state's EMA or similar being in front of disaster response, SAR, and similar incidents is not unusual, nor are states and
counties with special rules regarding who can respond and when / where.

Since CAP normally responds to ELT activation without even notifying a state's resources,
and is a Federal instrumentality when doing so, one would have to pre-suppose that this
situation has been worked out over time between WAWG and the NOC, etc., otherwise
how would they even be aware?

Just go to the classes if you want to participate.

If you're in WAWG, why does it say SER-TN-170 in your profile?
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,254
Unit: Worry

« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2018, 11:55:59 AM »

Lemme bounce this off you folks...

Is your CAP ground teams hindered in participating in local SAR because of state laws???

Here in Washington State, SAR is very different.  All air search & rescue is handled by the Washington State Dept. of Transportation - Aviation Emergency Services (WSDOT-AES).  They conduct all ELT and EPIRB searches.  If the search becomes extensive, they will contact CAP for help.  State law mandates WSDOT-AES is the state authority for all air SAR missions and is the de facto Incident Commander (OK, fair enough). 

In order for CAP to participate, you MUST attend WSDOT's 8- hour AES volunteer orientation course AND be issued an AES volunteer ID.  If you do not have this ID... you will not perform on any WSDOT AES mission.  But, it gets stickier...

By state law, the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the county" (Sheriff) is responsible for GSAR.  If a CAP ground team, on a WSDOT missions, locates the ELT signal and it's attached to an airplane that's schmucked into the side of a hill or sifted through the trees, they have to disengage and back off because the incident now becomes a ground search & rescue incident!  CAP are only considers "support teams" for WSDOT, unless your ground team possesses the required state certification for GSAR and the state emergency worker's ID card.  Then... and ONLY then... can they engage the incident as a GSAR team.
Anybody in any other wings deal with similar issues?

Ping me offline about this. I'm actively working through our chain of command to solve these problems.
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,254
Unit: Worry

« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2018, 11:57:39 AM »

Is your CAP ground teams hindered in participating in local SAR because of state laws???

No.

Here in Washington State, SAR is very different.  All air search & rescue is handled by the Washington State Dept. of Transportation - Aviation Emergency Services (WSDOT-AES).  They conduct all ELT and EPIRB searches.  If the search becomes extensive, they will contact CAP for help.  State law mandates WSDOT-AES is the state authority for all air SAR missions and is the de facto Incident Commander (OK, fair enough).

In order for CAP to participate, you MUST attend WSDOT's 8- hour AES volunteer orientation course AND be issued an AES volunteer ID.  If you do not have this ID... you will not perform on any WSDOT AES mission.  But, it gets stickier...

By state law, the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the county" (Sheriff) is responsible for GSAR.  If a CAP ground team, on a WSDOT missions, locates the ELT signal and it's attached to an airplane that's schmucked into the side of a hill or sifted through the trees, they have to disengage and back off because the incident now becomes a ground search & rescue incident!  CAP ground teams are only considered "support teams" for WSDOT unless they possess the state emergency worker ID card for GSAR. 

Anybody in any other wings deal with similar issues?

A state's EMA or similar being in front of disaster response, SAR, and similar incidents is not unusual, nor are states and
counties with special rules regarding who can respond and when / where.

Since CAP normally responds to ELT activation without even notifying a state's resources,
and is a Federal instrumentality when doing so, one would have to pre-suppose that this
situation has been worked out over time between WAWG and the NOC, etc., otherwise
how would they even be aware?

Just go to the classes if you want to participate.

I don't have 10 hours to dedicate to driving to go to said class as I live on the wrong side of the state. The one year we requested they do a class on our side of the state they did so without letting us know and 8 of the 10 people that wanted to go couldn't deconflict their schedule.
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cpyahoo
Member

Posts: 69
Unit: PCR-WA-082

« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2018, 12:14:08 PM »

It's just interesting how it varies so much from state to state.  In Tennessee, ELT searches were handled by CAP, but search & rescue was [supposedly] done by the county volunteer rescue squad.

Meanwhile, over in North Carolina, CAP was hard-wired into the state EMA and automatically called out for any missing person search in the state.
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cpyahoo
Member

Posts: 69
Unit: PCR-WA-082

« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2018, 12:36:52 PM »

Holding Pattern... sound familiar.  We used to go up to ESTA for the AES orientation.  Now, Olympia has whacked their training budget and even the AES director's job may be in peril.  We're struggling to get our team on its feet.  Once it's up, we'll be reaching out to Walla Walla and Yakima.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,867

« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2018, 01:25:24 PM »

It's just interesting how it varies so much from state to state.  In Tennessee, ELT searches were handled by CAP, but search & rescue was [supposedly] done by the county volunteer rescue squad.

Meanwhile, over in North Carolina, CAP was hard-wired into the state EMA and automatically called out for any missing person search in the state.

Yeah, that Tenth Amendment really puts a crimp in things.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,867

« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2018, 01:27:06 PM »

Lemme bounce this off you folks...

Is your CAP ground teams hindered in participating in local SAR because of state laws???

Here in Washington State, SAR is very different.  All air search & rescue is handled by the Washington State Dept. of Transportation - Aviation Emergency Services (WSDOT-AES).  They conduct all ELT and EPIRB searches.  If the search becomes extensive, they will contact CAP for help.  State law mandates WSDOT-AES is the state authority for all air SAR missions and is the de facto Incident Commander (OK, fair enough). 

In order for CAP to participate, you MUST attend WSDOT's 8- hour AES volunteer orientation course AND be issued an AES volunteer ID.  If you do not have this ID... you will not perform on any WSDOT AES mission.  But, it gets stickier...

By state law, the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the county" (Sheriff) is responsible for GSAR.  If a CAP ground team, on a WSDOT missions, locates the ELT signal and it's attached to an airplane that's schmucked into the side of a hill or sifted through the trees, they have to disengage and back off because the incident now becomes a ground search & rescue incident!  CAP are only considers "support teams" for WSDOT, unless your ground team possesses the required state certification for GSAR and the state emergency worker's ID card.  Then... and ONLY then... can they engage the incident as a GSAR team.
Anybody in any other wings deal with similar issues?

Ping me offline about this. I'm actively working through our chain of command to solve these problems.

Or, since everybody else is impacted, just put it out there. No need to maintain the secret squirrel cylinder of mediocrity...
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,195

« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2018, 02:04:23 PM »

Is your CAP ground teams hindered in participating in local SAR because of state laws???

Here in Washington State, SAR is very different.  All air search & rescue is handled by the Washington State Dept. of Transportation - Aviation Emergency Services (WSDOT-AES).

By state law, the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the county" (Sheriff) is responsible for GSAR.

It's just interesting how it varies so much from state to state.  In Tennessee, ELT searches were handled by CAP, but search & rescue was [supposedly] done by the county volunteer rescue squad.

Meanwhile, over in North Carolina, CAP was hard-wired into the state EMA and automatically called out for any missing person search in the state.
Anybody in any other wings deal with similar issues?
As a former commander of AFRCC said, 50 states, 50 ways of doing SAR. AFRCC has an MOU with each state defining who the lead agency is for ELT search, PLB search, missing person search and missing aircraft search.  There is a also a State SAR Coordinators Council, the chairman of which is the Washington State SAR coordinator, the vice-chair is from North Carolina and the secretary is from Colorado.

Summarizing how SAR is handled within the states, there are 13 states in which the state aeronautics department or equivalent is in charge of missing aircraft search while law enforcement is charge of missing person search. So you aren't alone in Washington.

Quote
Is your CAP ground team hindered in participating in local SAR because of state laws???
You aren't hindered. You're simply required to take training outside of what you had to take in CAP, which is a good idea. All the rest of the ground SAR personnel had to take the same training.

Mike
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 634

« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2018, 08:11:54 PM »

Also, having taken CAP and WSDOT training for various tasks I can attest to the very high quality of the WSDOT product.  I know this sounds snarky - though I do NOT intend it as such... If anyone of us can't "take 10 hours" to get required training, how can we take time to actually participate in a SAR or DR emergency?  A bigger question might be:  If our training doesn't mesh with that required by the Agency in charge, are we destined to (maybe) become part of the problem in the SAR/relief effort... rather that an element of the safely accomplished outcome?
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 425
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2018, 01:48:45 PM »

Also, having taken CAP and WSDOT training for various tasks I can attest to the very high quality of the WSDOT product.  I know this sounds snarky - though I do NOT intend it as such... If anyone of us can't "take 10 hours" to get required training, how can we take time to actually participate in a SAR or DR emergency?  A bigger question might be:  If our training doesn't mesh with that required by the Agency in charge, are we destined to (maybe) become part of the problem in the SAR/relief effort... rather that an element of the safely accomplished outcome?
The issue is availability of training. WSDOT is not good about being 'user-friendly' wrt scheduling, notice or geography.
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Live2Learn
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Posts: 634

« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2018, 08:50:37 PM »


The issue is availability of training. WSDOT is not good about being 'user-friendly' wrt scheduling, notice or geography.

I agree that's a problem.  However, it is definitely NOT unique to WSDOT! 

When was the last time Wing coordinated a pilot clinic, mountain flying clinic, MO, Scanner, GTL, PAO, etc. or other key training opportunities near squadrons distant from the centroid of population (CAP and other)?  If recently (in the past year) great!  If not, well... let's be sure to compare apples and apple sauce.  FWIW, I see very little to not much Wing training near my Squadron.  While State resources come over from time to time... budget does affect Agency travel just like it affects my ability to go to locations closer to Wing HQ.  I recall my last training investment was in the multiples of $100 and a couple of days.  Gotta do what we think are our priorities, I guess.
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Spaceman3750
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Posts: 2,640

« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2018, 10:47:48 PM »


The issue is availability of training. WSDOT is not good about being 'user-friendly' wrt scheduling, notice or geography.

I agree that's a problem.  However, it is definitely NOT unique to WSDOT! 

When was the last time Wing coordinated a pilot clinic, mountain flying clinic, MO, Scanner, GTL, PAO, etc. or other key training opportunities near squadrons distant from the centroid of population (CAP and other)?  If recently (in the past year) great!  If not, well... let's be sure to compare apples and apple sauce.  FWIW, I see very little to not much Wing training near my Squadron.  While State resources come over from time to time... budget does affect Agency travel just like it affects my ability to go to locations closer to Wing HQ.  I recall my last training investment was in the multiples of $100 and a couple of days.  Gotta do what we think are our priorities, I guess.

When was the last time your squadron or group offered such training?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,640

« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2018, 08:29:43 AM »

Why is this even asked?

Many, many, many times there is NO local resource that can sign off in such a task! My Group does not have SETs in many of the tasks I wanted my squadron to be certified. I started coordinating such training but had to stop after four attempts. I was successful two times. Received no response for two others, and I called two adjoining groups and Wing HQ

No response. Zero. Nada. Zilch!

I have to add, that another Group member is receiving the cooperaion of another member from an adjoining group.

I am willing to bet the answer to your question is that there was no response from other groups.

 ::)
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arajca
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Posts: 4,270

« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2018, 11:04:45 AM »

Why is this even asked?
Because many times, units expect someone else to provide training that meets the unit's schedule, but are unwilling to step up and even assist in planning training. i.e. arrange for a location.

Quote
Many, many, many times there is NO local resource that can sign off in such a task! My Group does not have SETs in many of the tasks I wanted my squadron to be certified. I started coordinating such training but had to stop after four attempts. I was successful two times. Received no response for two others, and I called two adjoining groups and Wing HQ

No response. Zero. Nada. Zilch!

I have to add, that another Group member is receiving the cooperaion of another member from an adjoining group.

I am willing to bet the answer to your question is that there was no response from other groups.

 ::)
Training and task evaluation are two different things. Anyone can do the training. You can even do it on your own. Task evaluation requires a SET. I ran a complete GTM3 training program over four months at my unit a couple years ago, culminating in a ground based SAREX expressly for the purpose of qualifying GTM3s. I received plenty of help from group and wing. What I did not get was other units participating in the SAREX, which was 45 mins - 1 hr away from them (a couple were only 15 mins out). We still got a few folks from my unit signed off (including me) and I heard later that year some of those units were complaining no one offered ground based SAREXs so they could get their folks signed off, but they did not want to put forth the effort to help make it happen.
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Live2Learn
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Posts: 634

« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2018, 12:17:23 PM »


The issue is availability of training. WSDOT is not good about being 'user-friendly' wrt scheduling, notice or geography.

I agree that's a problem. ...

When was the last time your squadron or group offered such training?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good question.  Squadrn tng has occurred in the last year.  About 18 months ago Wing sponsored an AP course.  That about the same amount of time since the last WSDOT training opportunities outside of the Seattle and Puget Sound area.

Something to keep in mind, however, is that most squadrons don't have the capability to provide really top notch instruction.  Neither do many groups.  An often overlooked reality is that WSDOT/Aviation, IDTOT/Aviation, and other States that are significantly involved in aviation SAR/DR have paid staff and the ability to pull together professionally done training.  It's also important that when training is offered over one or more blocks spanning multiple weekends retention and skill set development is more likely to occur.  Unfortunately, the 'norm' for participation of training offered at squadron meetings is at best spotty.  In every case I've seen that just doesn't lead to good retention of material.  Death-by-powerpoint with NESA materials is the norm for all of the Squadron (or group) training I've seen.  Also, merely having SET approval doesn't mean even that step is well done.  Check rides with WSDOT, as well as all of their instruction far exceeds the quality and accountability of any "comparable" CAP SAR/DR training (including NESA) I've attended.  IOW, inexpensive (local) squadron options are not likely to achieve an acceptable outcome if the goal is to develop effective SAR/DR skill sets.  Unfortunately, it's my observation that neither does group or Wing offered training.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 12:27:05 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,640

« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2018, 03:59:35 PM »

If the training does not come from a SET you run the risk of that SET stating "you are not a SET therefore that training is not valid." Plus since the publications are so old the SET will judge task attainment differently.

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,764

« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2018, 04:02:30 PM »

One thing being missed here is that WSDOT appears to have it own, robust SAR volunteer program
that does not need CAP's help, so they, like the ARC, are not incentivized to help CAP, and it's
likely CAP's involvement may actually be a negative in some areas in regards to overtime
and other funding for full-timers.

We have the same issue in my wing with CD - it's a nice way to build hours for other agencies,
so in most areas we only get flights when something needs to be checked in a hurry and
there's no other agency available, it is what it is.

I agree completely that Wings are not responsible for wrench-turning training, however I would say in cases
like these it's actually wing's, or even National's problem to intervene and try to get CAP involved, that's
really the intended role and mission of higher HQ, not running flight clinics and training MSAs.

Units should start training plans with local mission needs first, then teaching themselves the skills necessary.
Once proficiency is achieved, start looking for an SET.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,764

« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2018, 04:06:30 PM »

If the training does not come from a SET you run the risk of that SET stating "you are not a SET therefore that training is not valid." Plus since the publications are so old the SET will judge task attainment differently.

Negative, and if you're having that issue in your wing it needs to be addressed directly and swiftly with the Wing's DO,
CC, or higher iF the response is not correct.

The ONLY THING an SET can require is that you complete the tasks exactly the way they are indicated in the task guides.
No embellishment, no "local flavor", and no requirement an SET be the one who provided the actual training.

If fact, reality and expediency aside, most people consider the trainer being the SET as "not a best practice" at best, and
a conflict of interest at worst.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, CAP is far too short-handed for it not too, but when the
trainer is also the SET, bad habits, or worse, can get propagated instead of caught.
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,640

« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2018, 04:18:03 PM »

Not all wings are the same, and no Wing DOS are the same.

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Squadron Administrative Officer
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: CAP-SAR & State Laws
 


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