Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 20, 2018, 10:14:34 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Air Force inches closer to warrant officers: Could they fix the pilot crisis?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Print
Author Topic: Air Force inches closer to warrant officers: Could they fix the pilot crisis?  (Read 4830 times)
CAP_truth
Seasoned Member

Posts: 249

« on: April 19, 2018, 12:30:19 PM »


Read this article and wondering how it could effect the future of CAP. I would be happy with the reinstatement of warrant officer grade to senior member program.


https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/04/06/air-force-inches-closer-to-warrant-officers-could-they-fix-the-pilot-crisis/
Logged
Cadet CoP
Wilson
goblin
Forum Regular

Posts: 176

« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2018, 12:38:08 PM »


Read this article and wondering how it could effect the future of CAP. I would be happy with the reinstatement of warrant officer grade to senior member program.


https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/04/06/air-force-inches-closer-to-warrant-officers-could-they-fix-the-pilot-crisis/

Won’t happen. If it does, it won’t help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,766

« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2018, 02:17:26 PM »

There's no reason to add another meaningless grade to an already muddled structure in CAP.

Bringing aircrew up from the enlisted ranks may open up a new potential group to draw from,
but it doesn't magically create those people out of thin air, and as indicated making them
Warrants just opens other potential issues, though I recall reading one article that indicated
there might be legal issues with whether or non non-comms can shoot to kill in an aircraft,
which was one of the reasons to reconsider warrants.

It's not likely to fix the "pilot crisis", which has as much to do with the economy,
career potential, and social attitudes about the military, as it does with what someone has
ion their shoulder.

When the economy is strong, military careers are less appealing.

What will fix the issue is the new Top Gun movie.
Logged


etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,201

« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2018, 02:25:19 PM »


What will fix the issue is the new Top Gun movie.

Hollywood's next version of Top Gun may not be like the previous macho movie. I shudder to think what the next one might be like.

With the #metoo movement ... you can't have a pilot having sex with an instructor like the old movie. LOL

The next version may have a transgender as the lead.
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,640

« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2018, 02:59:38 PM »

Top Gun? Is not Top Gun for the Navy?

We need one of its own.

What about Air Force, Strategic Command, or A Gathering of Eagles?

Or maybe a new one titled simply Red Flag?
Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,365
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2018, 04:58:34 PM »

The Navy has tried, over the years, to use similar programs for filling the pilot ranks - NAP, AOCS, and LDO Aviator among others - with limited success. One of the limiting reasons was a status bias, similar to that between Academy and ROTC/OCS graduates. I have seen this bias to be even greater in the AF than the Navy, so the WO idea may be doomed from the outset. YMMV.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,145

« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2018, 08:39:53 PM »

Don't know what the Air Force Times is smoking. But as long as the Chiefs Mafia is around there will be no Air Force Warrant Officers.
This idea seems to come up about every 10 years... ::)
Logged
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,644

« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2018, 07:03:40 AM »

The problem with the pilot crisis can be fixed by just disconnecting the idea that pilot=leader.

With the UP or OUT system the AF has.   Pilots have to do stuff to make them promotable. A lot of that stuff does not involve flying.

The fix is to just let pilots fly.   If they don't want to do the other stuff...then let them just stay in rank.

Another possible fix is to just make all the pilots sign up for 20 years! 
Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 118
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2018, 09:58:56 AM »

The fix is to just let pilots fly.   If they don't want to do the other stuff...then let them just stay in rank.

In 1980 I went to USAF Navigator school.  I was later caught in a "RIF" and wound up in the Army.  I would have been more than willing to take a reduction to W-2, and it most likely would have been offered to me - if the grade existed.

If the USAF does this the CAP response would probably be to open the existing FO grades to all senior members, and I would be perfectly happy to be one.
Logged
Dwight J. Dutton, CPT AUS (RET)
MAJ, CAP, after 11,734 days in grade
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,644

« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2018, 11:57:55 AM »

Well...that is the real problem.

The Air Force has been constitutionally unable to actually manage their work force.   

Both on O and E side of the house.   

What CAP does will obviously mirror what ever the USAF does.   If they get WO ranks (highly unlikely IMHO) then CAP would get them too eventually.

YMMV
Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 955
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2018, 01:20:58 PM »

Perhaps the need for an independent Air Force is slipping away, maybe the USAF should be disbanded and it's assets and personnel reallocated back to the US Army as the Army Air Corps.

(Ducking now for the incoming rounds!)
Logged
Joseph J. Clune
Major (Promotable), Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,089
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2018, 01:54:22 PM »


You'd be surprised at where peoples heads are these days. Just five years ago, I was at the bar with a bunch of senior pilots [from a joint aircraft program] who were seriously debating combining the brown shoe Naval Aviation and USAF pilot communities and doing away with separate air services. These were both Air Force and Navy officers.


I moved a couple of stools down, switched away from what they were drinking, and started eyeing the nearest exit...


Cheers
Spam

Logged
shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 955
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2018, 02:57:50 PM »

Not a Pilot and not a Warrant Officer, but the vast majority of both, in Army, are in Army Aviation.

The way I understand it that WO have their own Professional Military Education System and they pretty much can keep the same job from WO-1 to CWO-4 without worrying about the up-or-out concept that Commissioned Officers deal with.

CWO-5 slots are more like Command Sergeant Major Billets, they are advisors to Commanders on WO issues.

If you want to do nothing but fly for 20 years, Army Aviation Warrant Officer seems the way to go.
Logged
Joseph J. Clune
Major (Promotable), Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,089
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2018, 03:27:34 PM »

Agreed, that's my impression based on working with aircrew from all the services; USAF/USN/USMC commissioned pilots are expected to at some point go complete a dept. head tour and then "grow up" (ugh, their sarcastic phrase not mine).

One of my sisters married a 2LT straight out of Ft. Wolters flight school and the other a WO after his 3rd 'Nam tour (got out as a CW4 after Iran) and he did nothing but fly day in and day out with very little non operational work. I work on one project with CW4 and -5s now, and former warrant DAC pilots from the Regiment. They're the (THE) high time technical community experts we use for avionics systems, weapons and tactics, and cockpit design evals (some are even test pilot school grads, and one has several degrees - it isn't like warrants are uneducated boors). We had one O-3 in the sims last week and they were very kind and indulgent of the young man's inputs.

There was a very interesting CSPAN session back in January or so regarding USAF and Army 3 stars giving testimony before the SASC regarding UAV pilot training (with very near peer equipment - Predators and GE's - the Army has had no problems producing pilots, while USAF had a long list of reasons why not). I think I posted a link here on CT...


V/r
Spam




Logged
grunt82abn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 243

« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2018, 09:35:39 AM »

Perhaps the need for an independent Air Force is slipping away, maybe the USAF should be disbanded and it's assets and personnel reallocated back to the US Army as the Army Air Corps.

(Ducking now for the incoming rounds!)
Go Army Air Corps!!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,559
Unit: Classified

« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2018, 10:00:22 AM »

Perhaps the need for an independent Air Force is slipping away, maybe the USAF should be disbanded and it's assets and personnel reallocated back to the US Army as the Army Air Corps.

(Ducking now for the incoming rounds!)
Go Army Air Corps!!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Will never happen. 
Logged
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,640

« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2018, 10:18:58 AM »

Oh yeah.

Bring back the Army Air Corps.

Also bring back the following:

B-17
B-25
P-39
P-38
P-40
All the BT, PT, and ATs
Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,640

« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2018, 03:56:35 PM »

Oh no! NOT another Shuman!


 :o


Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
CAP_truth
Seasoned Member

Posts: 249

« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2018, 05:54:22 PM »

I  think the WO grades would be good for mission related personnel who are only interested in ES. This would allow for the upgrade of educational requirements for officer grades. College degree is now required for national commander and vice commander. This will now be moving down to other positions. Unlike FO grades, WO grades would not be only for 18 to 20 year olds. If we had a full enlisted grade program it may be different. My opinion.
Logged
Cadet CoP
Wilson
OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 425
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2018, 08:12:49 PM »

I  think the WO grades would be good for mission related personnel who are only interested in ES. This would allow for the upgrade of educational requirements for officer grades. College degree is now required for national commander and vice commander. This will now be moving down to other positions. Unlike FO grades, WO grades would not be only for 18 to 20 year olds. If we had a full enlisted grade program it may be different. My opinion.
Agreed. I am moving towards ridding the seniors of the USAF uniforms and grades. I get the reasons on both sides, but very much lean towards corporate uniforms these days.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Air Force inches closer to warrant officers: Could they fix the pilot crisis?
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.05 seconds with 20 queries.