That’s the way we’ve always done that…

[Thonawit]

That's always the way we've done that, how often have you heard that relating to CAP?

First a bit of background, I joined CAP because my son got me interested about a year and a half ago. My former Boss (from 20 years ago) was/is a member and had been in CAP for about 7 years, he convinced (as my wife says he "Yoda'd"* me) me to join. After 6 months I was one step from quitting (waiting to get my Level 1 Face to Face completed, and sitting without a Job) and the Squadron was on its death bed. About a year ago, my Wife and I met with my former Boss (DCS was one of the hats he was wearing at the time) informally over Dinner and covered a lot of ground. A week later my Wife joined CAP (Yoda'd), two weeks after that every Senior member, who needed it, in the Squadron had their Level 1 Face to Face completed. We received duty assignments, I currently wear a few hats along with my Wife, for lack of a better term "we are the DCC and AE officer".

Fast forward a year, my former Boss is Squadron Commander, DCC and AE officer are the biggest hats my wife and I wear. Through a ton of hard work our Squadron managed to get off the Death Bed and is thriving and growing.

That's the way we've always done that... an answer given by our former commander when asked about why X or Y is done on a regular basis. I hear that answer on a regular basis from many Senior members throughout our Wing, including our Wing Commander. (My Wing Commander and I had a great conversation one evening and one of his answers was "That's the way we've always done that" and I responded with "Why?", needless to say the conversation took a good turn and "Why" was converted into good change.)

The following is my opinion;
That's the way we've always done that... is why Recruiting and retention in CAP is lousy
That's the way we've always done that... is why ideas that lead to growth and positive change are killed
That's the way we've always done that... is the refuge of the Lazy and of the closed mind
That's the way we've always done that... is something I will not say when asked about why we do something.

There are places where "That's the way we've always done that" has its place, those places are where there is a definitive answer with good cause (IE We always pre-flight an Airplane before we fly).

What do we do to get rid of "That's the way we've always done that"?


*He used the Force, "These are the Cadets you are looking for..."

[FW]

Nice rant.  This being CAPTalk, I will be polite and agree with your premise without further comment.  Good luck with your squadron's continued success. It's what we do...

[Luis R. Ramos]

FW,

That is the way we've always done that...





At least to prevent problems...

[NIN]

a corollary to this is something I've heard called "Good Enough For Us."

Like CAP is some mythical strange thing, somehow different from other non-profits, youth groups, SAR or emergency outfits in such a radical way that "doing something halfway is just right. For us!"

Grrrr.

[RRLE]

"Good enough" has many advocates throughout history.

"the best is the enemy of good" - Voltaire, who is usually credited with the saying

"Were it not sinful then, striving to mend,
To mar the subject that before was well?"
Shakespeare, King Lear

The concept of the Golden Mean, advocated by just about every ancient philosopher from the Greeks to the Chinese is along the same lines.

"Give them the third best to go on with; the second best comes too late, the best never comes."
Watson-Watt - developed early warning radar for the British

Herber A. Simon in Administrative Behavior (a book I had to read in grad school in the '70s) used the term satisficing to describe the same "sub-optimal" behavior that yielded rational results.

[kirbahashi]

"Good enough" has many advocates throughout history.

"the best is the enemy of good" - Voltaire, who is usually credited with the saying

"Were it not sinful then, striving to mend,
To mar the subject that before was well?"
Shakespeare, King Lear

The concept of the Golden Mean, advocated by just about every ancient philosopher from the Greeks to the Chinese is along the same lines.

"Give them the third best to go on with; the second best comes too late, the best never comes."
Watson-Watt - developed early warning radar for the British

Herber A. Simon in Administrative Behavior (a book I had to read in grad school in the '70s) used the term satisficing to describe the same "sub-optimal" behavior that yielded rational results.

These are right up there with "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."  And if you ever want to set me off, tell me "Semper Gumby" at an event.  Semper Gumby is not a plan.  It is an excuse not to plan, or not follow the established plan.  To be flexible would indicate there was rigidity at one time.

What do we do to get rid of "That's the way we've always done that"?

This question alone will drive pages of discussion. 

First.  Hats off to you and your wife.  You guys experienced the pain a lot of new members feel and pushed through.  You guys changed it for the better.

Second. How do we get rid of this?  To me, it seems like it is sort of unofficial corporate culture in CAP.  I don't buy it as an answer when I am told it... And I cringe (and die inside just a little) if I say it. 

We get rid of it by not letting it exist.  Meaning we challenge our peers, subordinates, and superiors to give the right answer.  If we have done something, one way, for the last 10 years... Why?  Is there a better way?  Is there a way that is safer or makes more sense?  If the answer is yes, then there should be some discussion.

Best of luck on solving this one.  This is one of those things that drives members away from this organization in droves.

Now I will say this... Change for changes sake is not good either.  Not every idea is a good one.  But a good leader should be able to state why a practice is done. 

[CAPDCCMOM]

"We've always don it this way", is going to be the death knell of this Organization. I have seen many people, including one that loves to point to the Silver Oak Leaves on his shoulder, go around regulations with this exact phrase.

If a Squadron was on it's death bed, and on life support, then "how we have always done it", was obviously not working. I understand the need for some tradition. But, traditions have the potential to destroy new growth and paralyze an organization. The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same hing and expect a different result. As an Organization, we cry out for new members and new ideas, then the CAP Dinosaur, Species: CAPosaurus, excludes the new member or makes them so miserable that they leave.

[TheSkyHornet]

Incredibly common in CAP, as well as just about any other organization. I find people confuse laziness and stubbornness with tradition.

They look at all of the problems in their unit, and they attribute them to something external.

"Your Cadet Commander is lousy."
"What should we do?"
"Fire him."
"But then we won't have a Cadet Commander."
"So?"
"We've always had a Cadet Commander."
"Maybe try restructuring your training program."
"We've always have this format."
"Have you always had lousy Cadet Commanders?"
"For the most part."

It just keeps going.

"Your bivouacs suck."
"That's the way we've always done them."
"How many people usually show up?"
"About 5-10."
"That's atrocious."
"That's typical."
"Why not actually make them fun and not death by PowerPoint?"
"What should we do?"
"Have you thought about asking people, and actually writing ideas down?"
"We never get feedback."
"........you just got feedback. I gave you feedback. People not showing up is feedback."

But it's not their fault.

"What's your duty position?"
"I don't know."
"I see on the Org Chart you're the Activities Officer."
"So what does that mean?"
"You don't know what that means?"
"No, because we really don't follow any of that. We just do whatever the boss tells us."
"Okay, that's not how this should work."
"Tell him that."
"Why haven't you told him that? You do know you're supposed to discuss these issues with your superiors so they can improve as well, right?"
"Nothing will change."
"Because you won't make the effort...."

I couldn't agree more with kirbahashi's post about challenging people to give the right answer. It's not that the answer is right (correct). It's that they need to understand the decisions they make, not just coming up with random decisions for the sake of it. Change for the sake of change has absolutely no reason behind it other than "because we don't want to do it that way anymore." People need to identify problems, come up with a solution, work to implement that solution, adapt as needed, and review the outcome. The "from now on we do it this way" mentality is just as bad as the "we've always done it this way" mentality.

"We've always don it this way", is going to be the death knell of this Organization. I have seen many people, including one that loves to point to the Silver Oak Leaves on his shoulder, go around regulations with this exact phrase.

If a Squadron was on it's death bed, and on life support, then "how we have always done it", was obviously not working. I understand the need for some tradition. But, traditions have the potential to destroy new growth and paralyze an organization. The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same hing and expect a different result. As an Organization, we cry out for new members and new ideas, then the CAP Dinosaur, Species: CAPosaurus, excludes the new member or makes them so miserable that they leave.

It's not just on the senior side.

How many cadets have we seen that get up high and think their rank means they can stand to the side with their arms crossed? Then, they become senior members and start "bossing around" the higher-ranking cadets like they have some super authority.

It's a vicious cycle of leading by poor example.

[THRAWN]

I loathe that expression. Until a certain part in our history, it was legal to own another human being. Why? Because we've always done it that way. The phrase is a cop out. It's institutional laziness and inertia at its finest. Most people who say it have no idea why it's always been done that way, and are too narrow focused and trapped in their 2 dimensional thinking to even consider that there might be a better mousetrap. The OP was hardly a rant, but it does demonstrate the impact that parochial thinking has on the organization, especially at the squadron level.

The OP brought up recruiting. A lot of units can see past the recruiting booth at the annual airfest. That's not recruiting. It's fishing. Same can be said for fundraising. Same can be said for interaction with our ES partners at the local and state levels. Same can be said for how we approach the AE mission. Same can be said for how we maintain our files. There are, for some reason, many Luddites in this organization. Times have changed and the world has moved on from how we used to do things. CAP at all levels needs to move with it or risk being left behind.

[TheSkyHornet]

I loathe that expression. Until a certain part in our history, it was legal to own another human being. Why? Because we've always done it that way. The phrase is a cop out. It's institutional laziness and inertia at its finest. Most people who say it have no idea why it's always been done that way, and are too narrow focused and trapped in their 2 dimensional thinking to even consider that there might be a better mousetrap. The OP was hardly a rant, but it does demonstrate the impact that parochial thinking has on the organization, especially at the squadron level.

The OP brought up recruiting. A lot of units can see past the recruiting booth at the annual airfest. That's not recruiting. It's fishing. Same can be said for fundraising. Same can be said for interaction with our ES partners at the local and state levels. Same can be said for how we approach the AE mission. Same can be said for how we maintain our files. There are, for some reason, many Luddites in this organization. Times have changed and the world has moved on from how we used to do things. CAP at all levels needs to move with it or risk being left behind.

On that note---

We made the same point at our squadron as we got a new PAO/Recruiting Officer and CDC. We decided to completely change the process by which we recruit, and get more involved in the local media as well as open our doors to open house events where the families can come meet with us and get to interact without disrupting the training process. We have a training class starting in 10 days of 8 new cadets, and possibly 2 more that would like to join (as well as their parents).

Now, one thing I constantly state is that, in regard to the cadet program, it's a leadership training program. This is not a daycare or after school hobby play group. It's a training program. You will be expected to complete assignments and perform at meetings. There will be times of stress and it may test you mentally. If you can't conform to our standards, then perhaps find another organization. I have no regrets about someone walking away because it isn't for them. It's totally fine, and that's their choice. Those that stay will do the hard work in order to experience those fun opportunities. I'm finding that this attitude has caused a huge morale boost in our squadron, after an initial dip due to the confusion of the new style. But I see the cadets bouncing back and actually showing up at meetings, and they seem to really appreciate their superiors being held accountable, up through the senior member ranks. It's organized; it's disciplined; and it's fair. Everybody gets the chance to succeed, but they need to earn success.

I find that way too many squadrons roster-build for the sake of numbers because their only method of survival is roster membership, not team membership. They don't put in the effort to make change, and they won't accept outside ideas. It's unfortunate that some people in leadership positions can do that level of harm to their unit. Sometimes, you just need to walk away and do your work the best you can, and if you have to do it elsewhere, so be it.

THRAWN makes a wonderful point about how we modernize, and not just technologically in our own duties, but from a mission standpoint. Okay, so the CAP mission may not have changed, but our missions in the field do change. We need to adjust our strategies. Welcome to the world where nearly every 12-year-old used computers early on in the classroom at school, where 70% have a tablet to use at home, and 20+% have a cellphone of their own. There's a different culture today than when I was growing up, and certainly different from when many others on this board were growing up. We can adapt to it without losing our values. But we need to change how we get our message across. Fair or not, welcome to 2016. Get with it.

[CAPDCCMOM]

^^^^ I like was you are saying about roster membership vs. team membership. What happens so often is just a handful of people are carrying the full load. Too many members, Cadets and Seniors, want to have their hands held at all times. I am sorry, I just can not do that. I will tell you where, when, and how to find what you need, but you must do the work on your own.

In order to change as you all have done, you need the commitment of your complete Command Structure. People are so afraid to change and step away from "the way we have always done it" that they will, intentionally or unintentionally, sabotage efforts. I think we need to be more honest with others and with ourselves of what the expectations will be. And be willing to let people  go and find a different direction.

[FW]

For some unfathomable reason, resistance to change is endemic for many.  That is a shame, and "That's the way we've always done that" is the excuse we hear so often.  The "cure" for these "blues" are relatively simple; an open mind, a good plan for positive movement, and determination to see it through.   

Yes, I've seen the "GOBN", the "Flying Club", and the "Cliques".  I've also seen them change to productive, growing units with a renewal of spirit and energy.  It's more than complete "commitment from your command structure", it is also the need for each member to feel like a real "stakeholder".  Motivation (especially in a volunteer organization) comes from feeling respected, useful, and an integral part of the unit. As a commander, I never expected to do the work for others, however I made sure each member under my "command" understood their role, and how to succeed.  That is a recipe I enjoy cooking up on a regular basis.  It makes my life easier, gives fewer headaches, and gives me more time to enjoy my coffee and donuts...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There's a saying in Alcoholics Anonymous (and no doubt elsewhere):

"If you do what you've always done, you're gonna get what you always got."

[Thonawit]

How many cadets have we seen that get up high and think their rank means they can stand to the side with their arms crossed?

Watched that last summer with C/Lt I know Everything while watching a Cadet try and fail to teach drill to the other Cadets. I ended up taking over the teaching of Drill.

[Holding Pattern]

Speaking of "That's the way we've always done that..."

This linked thread is how CAPTALK always does things. Because of that, I can't wait for us (read CAP) to get more public official facebook groups so I can fully abandon this place as a resource for all things CAP.

Maybe things will turn around, and I'll see more professionalism and respect here. It would be really nice. But seeing that thread... that thread really isn't the face we should want to portray.

But that is the face normally portrayed... seemingly because we've always done that...

/rant.

[SarDragon]

It might have been a bit harsh, but the truth was there - poor planning produces poor performance. Expecting us to drop everything to get someone off the hook is a little off base. The answers provided were accurate, even if not the ones desired.

[Holding Pattern]

I'm certain we can all rationalize our actions when we provide less than useful information.

Tell me, which of the following is the most likely CAPtalk response to a uniform wear question by a member?

A) 39-1 is your friend.
B) Ask your chain of command. Why didn't anyone tell you this already?
C) You can find CAPM 39-1 HERE: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf which covers uniform wear, and page 35 says the following on the subject: ... Also in the future, searching captalk with the search function at the top center of the page with the following search term: "search term" will help you find answers to any similar uniform questions you may have.

Yes, you've probably answered this question 3,351 times. You probably start with C, move on to A, and then use B on a bad day. (these are all general Yous, not specific Yous.)

But this place would be a lot nicer if A and B were replaced with C or D (nothing.)

[SarDragon]

How I respond depends a lot on the expected knowledge level of the questioner. A cadet NCO or officer shouldn't be asking questions about material that should have been learned as a C/B. Those folks get less hand holding in my response.

[raivo]

Speaking of "That's the way we've always done that..."

This linked thread is how CAPTALK always does things. Because of that, I can't wait for us (read CAP) to get more public official facebook groups so I can fully abandon this place as a resource for all things CAP.

Maybe things will turn around, and I'll see more professionalism and respect here. It would be really nice. But seeing that thread... that thread really isn't the face we should want to portray.

But that is the face normally portrayed... seemingly because we've always done that...

/rant.

Shack.

[TheSkyHornet]

So, I witnessed what I would call the downfall of the command structure last week----

A C/2d Lt, who has been a consistent problem at the squadron, back-talked to the Cadet Commander. This is the same cadet officer who previously told the CDC, when asked as to why he decided not to participate with the rest of the cadets in drill, "I don't have to tell you anything; it's not your business." Okay, so that situation was handled quite well, but on this glorious day, the CDC wasn't around to hold rank. A similar issue occurred last week when the Cadet Commander, during PT, said he didn't feel that the cadet in question was doing push-ups correctly (making me wonder how he ever got to where he is...). When he informed the cadet, the cadet stood up and responded with "I don't even care anyway."

Of course, after PT it was stand around and be useless time when the Cadet Commander decided that because they had finished PT early, they would all gather into microgroups and B.S. with each other. Leadership Officer took care of that by explaining that since they still had 20 minutes on the clock, maybe they should find something constructive to do and train rather than waste time.

About a half-hour later, a TFO who really has no duty position in the cadet program but likes to pretend he does because he's the former Cadet Commander, got into a little spat with the Leadership Officer over the cadet Color Guard team. TFO wanted to take charge of it, and Leadership Officer told him he would be more comfortable if the First Sergeant over saw Color Guard. TFO responded with "I don't even like you, so what makes you think I'm going to care what your opinion is." Leadership Officer took care of that fairly well.

Toward the end of the meeting, the cadets were instructed to sweep up the hangar as they always do. Of course, the cadet staff didn't feel compelled to participate. I wandered over to two cadets--a Flight Commander and a C/TSgt of no duty position--chatting it up in glee, with the C/2d Lt eating cookies out of a bag. Let's just say, they got the Fear of God speech from me about what kind of image they set for themselves in front of the other cadets.

After the meeting had concluded, the Leadership Officer and Asst LEO called for a quick cadet staff meeting to address the communication problems that have plagued the squadron since the cadet staff assumed command. After they received a nice little remark about how they present exceptionally poor behavior and respect for one another, the Cadet Commander responded with "Are we done?"

This was addressed subsequently through the chain of command to the squadron commander, and I'll say, once again, it's that attitude of "this is how we always handle these issues..." Nothing will change. You aren't willing to change your tactics in addressing problems and holding people accountable, get used to the problems you have. You set that tone, now embrace it.

Thankfully, it isn't my own squadron, and I'm very open to discussing my own squadron's problems so we can share ideas and correct them, but this blatant disregard for changing the status quo because it will disrupt tradition and methodology is detrimental and extremely harmful to any unit.

Speaking of "That's the way we've always done that..."

This linked thread is how CAPTALK always does things. Because of that, I can't wait for us (read CAP) to get more public official facebook groups so I can fully abandon this place as a resource for all things CAP.

Maybe things will turn around, and I'll see more professionalism and respect here. It would be really nice. But seeing that thread... that thread really isn't the face we should want to portray.

But that is the face normally portrayed... seemingly because we've always done that...

/rant.

Shack.

I probably shouldn't have laughed, but I can't deny that I chuckled when reading that thread.